Can We Civilly Discuss Thoughts On Vaccination? A Poll.

[Amused to Death]

1 minute ago, LawFitz said:

Spend some time researching this topic and you'll find enough compelling information to formulate a holistic opinion across multiple considerations. I've outlined mine already for the most part. It's based on a lengthy and thorough review of all sides of this debate. The tl;dr version is that Cov2 isn't the plague... It's highly treatable with decades-old generic label medications and vitamins that have zero risk, without need for still-experimential biotech injections.

Whatever time I spend researching this topic would pale in comparison to the dedication of my selected medical professional. And frankly, its an insult to the medical community to believe my few hours on social media and youtube could override their advice.

[Amused to Death]

17 minutes ago, LawFitz said:

21 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

I'm not a doctor, so yes I trust mine with medical decisions. If I didn't, I would find another doctor. That's just speaking for myself.

Just like if I hire a lawyer, it'd be stupid of me to go against my lawyer's advice.

Not if it's bad advice.

And if my lawyer gave me advice I didn't trust, I'd find a new lawyer.

[LawFitz]

8 minutes ago, Redwes25 said:

Stop reading after this garbage.  This was made up wonder drug months ago that was actually found to be harmful.  You might want to look in the mirror on where you are getting your "FACTS".

Link to a FACT - https://www.fda.gov/drugs/drug-safety-and-availability/fda-cautions-against-use-hydroxychloroquine-or-chloroquine-covid-19-outside-hospital-setting-or

 

4 minutes ago, jobarules said:

Its amazing you have no issues with side effects from this but do with a vaccine

 

HCQ is a Zinc ionphore, meaning it helps extra-cellular Zinc get absorbed into the cell membrane, which has been long known to dramatically slow the rate of viral replication within cells. It's been regularly used in this country since the 1950s to treat lupis and arthritis.

Most/all drugs have side effects, especially if taken in improper amounts/conditions. The difference is we know the long-run side effects/risks of HCQ, whereas we can only theorize the same for mRNA and DNA vaxxes.

Lastly, HCQ isn't the end all when it comes to Zinc ionophores. Alternatives that don't require a script and have less side effects, though aren't quite as efficaceous in aiding Zinc absorption include long-known and utilized dietary immmunce-boosting supplements Quercetin and EGCG, both of which can be found at vitamin shops, and the latter in green tea.

[The Commish]

99% of this has been thoroughly debunked multiple times in multiple threads but it keeps coming back.  Unreal. 

[jobarules]

I think I'll take advice from my doctor over FBGs version of Tor Eckman

[LawFitz]

12 minutes ago, Amused to Death said:

Whatever time I spend researching this topic would pale in comparison to the dedication of my selected medical professional. And frankly, its an insult to the medical community to believe my few hours on social media and youtube could override their advice.

I would advise always vetting opinions, no matter the source, when it comes to major life matters such as your family's health. And just b/c I disagree with my doctor or lawyer about one subject doesn't completely invalidate their overall professional standing. Fundamentally knowing that nobody is 100% right about everything - on critical game-changing matters, I will always seek and consider alternative opinions, without necessarily firing my primary sources if I end up disagreeing with them.

[LawFitz]

5 minutes ago, The Commish said:

99% of this has been thoroughly debunked multiple times in multiple threads but it keeps coming back.  Unreal. 

Please debunk away. I'm listening.

[LawFitz]

6 minutes ago, jobarules said:

I think I'll take advice from my doctor over FBGs version of Tor Eckman

Another ad hominem. This thread is supposed to be civil.

And BTW, I'm not trying to convince you to do anything other than to stop trying to infringe upon my right to choose what I do with my body. And yes, I am Pro-Choice on the other matter too.

[Amused to Death]

1 minute ago, LawFitz said:

I would advise always vetting opinions, no matter the source, when it comes to major life matters such as your family's health. And just b/c I disagree with my doctor or lawyer about one subject doesn't completely invalidate their overall professional standing. Fundamentally knowing that nobody is 100% right about everything - on critical game-changing matters, I will always seek and consider alternative opinions, without necessarily firing my primary sources if I end up disagreeing with them.

When it comes to matters of my family's health, there's no one else I would trust besides a doctor.

As I asked before, how many doctors do you suppose you'd need to consult before finding one that agrees with your pre-determined objection with the vaccines? And why would that one doctor's opinion weigh more heavily than the others you rejected?

Its like the old ad, if four out of five dentists recommend sugarless gum, would you side with the one who didn't?

 

[LawFitz]

1 minute ago, Amused to Death said:

And why would that one doctor's opinion weigh more heavily than the others you rejected?

I'll post this vid for a third time. I suggest you watch. He's one of many, many doctors that you can readily find online saying the same thing... Covid is treatable. Covid is low-risk for most peeps. Vaccines aren't the only solution to the problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAHi3lX3oGM&t=28s

If you can accept the first two presuppositions, then the third is a fair corresponding conclusion. And if we can come to that conclusion, then why inject ourselves en masse (vs only the most vulnerable) until more data/time are gathered, using the standards of traditional vaccine development protocols that span 5-10 years?

Why are we so eager to treat this thing with experimentation, when we have promising alternative methods that we KNOW are safe? Why are we so eager to intrude upon others' health rights over a disease with a <1% mortality rate? SARS CoV1 had a 15% death rate. This isn't that. This isn't the plague. Why are we treating it as such?

[The Commish]

16 minutes ago, LawFitz said:

Please debunk away. I'm listening.

You can read the thread

Not doing it again 

[Biff84]

9 minutes ago, LawFitz said:

I'll post this vid for a third time. I suggest you watch. He's one of many, many doctors that you can readily find online saying the same thing... Covid is treatable. Covid is low-risk for most peeps. Vaccines aren't the only solution to the problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAHi3lX3oGM&t=28s

If you can accept the first two presuppositions, then the third is a fair corresponding conclusion. And if we can come to that conclusion, then why inject ourselves en masse (vs only the most vulnerable) until more data/time are gathered, using the standards of traditional vaccine development protocols that span 5-10 years?

Why are we so eager to treat this thing with experimentation, when we have promising alternative methods that we KNOW are safe? Why are we so eager to intrude upon others' health rights over a disease with a <1% mortality rate? SARS CoV1 had a 15% death rate. This isn't that. This isn't the plague. Why are we treating it as such?

Lol at calling a vaccine an experimentation while pushing hydroxychloroquine with YouTube doctor videos.

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

5 minutes ago, Biff84 said:

Lol at calling a vaccine an experimentation while pushing hydroxychloroquine with YouTube doctor videos.

I can find it lots of things, but laugh worthy (as in funny) is not one of them.  Maybe laughing as a defense mechanism over the alternatives.   But if you just spent a bit of time doing your own research...

[LawFitz]

1 minute ago, Biff84 said:

Lol at calling a vaccine an experimentation while pushing hydroxychloroquine with YouTube doctor videos.

That's twice now that you respond in a hostile manner. Do you have anything constructive to add or should I just expect vitriol and strawmen?

Did you even bother to watch the video? The doc making the address is very likely a lot more qualified than your personal-care physician or mine. There are countless others like him if you search.

And HCQ has been utilized effectively for 70 years without issue, until the Covid narrative emerged - IMO due to anti-Trump sentiment, combined with the fact that it's cheaply available off patent. Have you done any actual research on the drug besides the demonizing narratives of the last 12 mos?

 

[Biff84]

1 minute ago, LawFitz said:

That's twice now that you respond in a hostile manner. Do you have anything constructive to add or should I just expect vitriol and strawmen?

Did you even bother to watch the video? The doc making the address is very likely a lot more qualified than your personal-care physician or mine. There are countless others like him if you search.

And HCQ has been utilized effectively for 70 years without issue, until the Covid narrative emerged - IMO due to anti-Trump sentiment, combined with the fact that it's cheaply available off patent. Have you done any actual research on the drug besides the demonizing narratives of the last 12 mos?

 

Well as a pharmacist, I trained for several years and now have nearly a decade of experience. I have dispensed hundreds of scripts for hydroxychloroquine over that time and am well aware of the conditions it can treat and the precautions that need to be taken while using the medication. During the pandemic, I paid close attention to all the studies that were done focusing on Hydroxychloroquine and I watched the Youtube videos as well as the analysis of those videos that review the claims. I am not going to watch your video. I doubt anything in it is different that what I’ve already seen.

Hydroxychloroquine was a Hail Mary attempt at a miracle cure for something with no treatment at the time. When scrutinized, it did not work. During the heyday of hydroxychloroquine there was a nationwide shortage due to all the prescriptions that caused us to struggle to fill prescriptions for those patients who take the medication for defined medical reasons. I did what I could for them so not to interrupt their therapy. Of those dozen or so patients, two died of COVID while taking hydroxychloroquine.

What doesn’t make sense is your belief in that and not in the vaccine. Since the vaccine has become available we’ve seen a dramatic drop in hospitalizations and deaths among those vaccinated yet you remain skeptical of it.

I’ve already wasted more time addressing HCQ than I care to. Didn’t realize that people were still talking about it as a treatment. Didn’t you get the memo that ivermectin is the new DOC?

[Prinefan]

9 minutes ago, Biff84 said:

Well as a pharmacist, I trained for several years and now have nearly a decade of experience. I have dispensed hundreds of scripts for hydroxychloroquine over that time and am well aware of the conditions it can treat and the precautions that need to be taken while using the medication. During the pandemic, I paid close attention to all the studies that were done focusing on Hydroxychloroquine and I watched the Youtube videos as well as the analysis of those videos that review the claims. I am not going to watch your video. I doubt anything in it is different that what I’ve already seen.

Hydroxychloroquine was a Hail Mary attempt at a miracle cure for something with no treatment at the time. When scrutinized, it did not work. During the heyday of hydroxychloroquine there was a nationwide shortage due to all the prescriptions that caused us to struggle to fill prescriptions for those patients who take the medication for defined medical reasons. I did what I could for them so not to interrupt their therapy. Of those dozen or so patients, two died of COVID while taking hydroxychloroquine.

What doesn’t make sense is your belief in that and not in the vaccine. Since the vaccine has become available we’ve seen a dramatic drop in hospitalizations and deaths among those vaccinated yet you remain skeptical of it.

I’ve already wasted more time addressing HCQ than I care to. Didn’t realize that people were still talking about it as a treatment. Didn’t you get the memo that ivermectin is the new DOC?

Well put.  

[Redwes25]

52 minutes ago, LawFitz said:

That's twice now that you respond in a hostile manner. Do you have anything constructive to add or should I just expect vitriol and strawmen?

Did you even bother to watch the video? The doc making the address is very likely a lot more qualified than your personal-care physician or mine. There are countless others like him if you search.

And HCQ has been utilized effectively for 70 years without issue, until the Covid narrative emerged - IMO due to anti-Trump sentiment, combined with the fact that it's cheaply available off patent. Have you done any actual research on the drug besides the demonizing narratives of the last 12 mos?

 

The randomized studies showing that hydroxychloroquine was ineffective and it has well know and proven side ffects that can cause death.  Honestly, it is sad that this drug is still being talked about out there as a remedy when it has proven in fact otherwise.  You can show up with as many youtube videos as you want but it won't change the fact that it doesn't work.      

 

[LawFitz]

3 minutes ago, Biff84 said:

Well as a pharmacist, I trained for several years and now have nearly a decade of experience. I have dispensed hundreds of scripts for hydroxychloroquine over that time and am well aware of the conditions it can treat and the precautions that need to be taken while using the medication. During the pandemic, I paid close attention to all the studies that were done focusing on Hydroxychloroquine and I watched the Youtube videos as well as the analysis of those videos that review the claims. I am not going to watch your video. I doubt anything in it is different that what I’ve already seen.

Hydroxychloroquine was a Hail Mary attempt at a miracle cure for something with no treatment at the time. When scrutinized, it did not work. During the heyday of hydroxychloroquine there was a nationwide shortage due to all the prescriptions that caused us to struggle to fill prescriptions for those patients who take the medication for defined medical reasons. I did what I could for them so not to interrupt their therapy. Of those dozen or so patients, two died of COVID while taking hydroxychloroquine.

What doesn’t make sense is your belief in that and not in the vaccine. Since the vaccine has become available we’ve seen a dramatic drop in hospitalizations and deaths among those vaccinated yet you remain skeptical of it.

I’ve already wasted more time addressing HCQ than I care to. Didn’t realize that people were still talking about it as a treatment. Didn’t you get the memo that ivermectin is the new DOC?

Thx, Biff.

Watch the video. No one drug is a solution all it's own. Nor does the doctor claim anything of the sort. He calls for a multi-layered approach to treatment.

People were hysterically taking HCQ without consulting med professionals; and/or during late stages of infection (when it's a lot less efficaceous due to it's treatment pathway - i.e. the Zinc that HCQ supplements slows intra-cellurlar viral replication; that's out the window if the virus has already replicated to obsene levels); and in many cases, including several formal studies, HCQ was adminstered without Zinc supplementation. HCQ, w/o Zinc is like pouring gasoline into a car without an engine!

That's one post-infection treatment protocol, among several that have been utilized effectively in the field, but haven't been hyped or funded for mass use against CoV2 infection. Pre-infection protocols include screening (and then as necessary, supplementing) Zinc, Vit C and ESPECIALLY, Vit D.

Why haven't these remedies been more widely pursued and studied for absolute links to preventing adverse Covid outcomes, despite a long trail of calls for them among doctors worldwide who've been treating with them on the front lines? As a medical professional, I suggest you look deeper into it, though it might lead to a big pharma/politico rabbit hole you won't like.

Bottom line: MOST people don't suffer extreme Covid outcomes. Most of the small few that do, don't receive these pre- and post-infection protocols. And all of these have a MUCH longer history than mRNA and DNA vaxxes. Why not pursue all angles, rather than pushing people into the one pathway that doesn't (yet) have an indisputably clear light at the end of the tunnel?

[The General]

10 minutes ago, LawFitz said:

Thx, Biff.

Watch the video. No one drug is a solution all it's own. Nor does the doctor claim anything of the sort. He calls for a multi-layered approach to treatment.

People were hysterically taking HCQ without consulting med professionals; and/or during late stages of infection (when it's a lot less efficaceous due to it's treatment pathway - i.e. the Zinc that HCQ supplements slows intra-cellurlar viral replication; that's out the window if the virus has already replicated to obsene levels); and in many cases, including several formal studies, HCQ was adminstered without Zinc supplementation. HCQ, w/o Zinc is like pouring gasoline into a car without an engine!

That's one post-infection treatment protocol, among several that have been utilized effectively in the field, but haven't been hyped or funded for mass use against CoV2 infection. Pre-infection protocols include screening (and then as necessary, supplementing) Zinc, Vit C and ESPECIALLY, Vit D.

Why haven't these remedies been more widely pursued and studied for absolute links to preventing adverse Covid outcomes, despite a long trail of calls for them among doctors worldwide who've been treating with them on the front lines? As a medical professional, I suggest you look deeper into it, though it might lead to a big pharma/politico rabbit hole you won't like.

Bottom line: MOST people don't suffer extreme Covid outcomes. Most of the small few that do, don't receive these pre- and post-infection protocols. And all of these have a MUCH longer history than mRNA and DNA vaxxes. Why not pursue all angles, rather than pushing people into the one pathway that doesn't (yet) have an indisputably clear light at the end of the tunnel?

Why do you believe there is so little talk about this HCQ and Zinc supplement treatment?

[jobarules]

16 minutes ago, Redwes25 said:

The randomized studies showing that hydroxychloroquine was ineffective and it has well know and proven side ffects that can cause death.  Honestly, it is sad that this drug is still being talked about out there as a remedy when it has proven in fact otherwise.  You can show up with as many youtube videos as you want but it won't change the fact that it doesn't work.      

 

One can almost say it was...

EXPERIMENTAL

[LawFitz]

Just now, The General said:

Why do you believe there is so little talk about this HCQ and Zinc supplement treatment?

Combo of lingering Trump hate and big pharma profiteering IMHO.

Did you even know until my posts that Zinc supplementation (especially in people with low levels) is a highly effective and very long-standing preventative technique to slow/block intracellular viral replication? How about the fact that two non-script supplements - Quercetin and ECHG - do the same thing as HCQ, but with less potency and less side effects?

Or that very few studies have been done on the link between low vitamin D levels and severe Covid, but that the few that exist showed a high correlation?

I doubt it, given that 98% of the people I've conversed about this since last year know nothing of these interesting factoids, save for perhaps some very brief media coverage about them at one short point or another.

[Chaz McNulty]

2 hours ago, LawFitz said:

Spend some time researching this topic and you'll find enough compelling information to formulate a holistic opinion across multiple considerations. I've outlined mine already for the most part. It's based on a lengthy and thorough review of all sides of this debate. The tl;dr version is that Cov2 isn't the plague... It's highly treatable with decades-old generic label medications and vitamins that have zero risk, without need for still-experimential biotech injections.

I do understand some people's resistance to taking the vaccine, but what do you think the consequence of no one taking the vaccine would be?  Do you think things would slowly open back up or do you think the hospitals would get overrun with Covid cases?

[The General]

4 minutes ago, LawFitz said:

Combo of lingering Trump hate and big pharma profiteering IMHO.

Did you even know until my posts that Zinc supplementation (especially in people with low levels) is a highly effective and very long-standing preventative technique to slow/block intracellular viral replication? How about the fact that two non-script supplements - Quercetin and ECHG - do the same thing as HCQ, but with less potency and less side effects?

Or that very few studies have been done on the link between low vitamin D levels and severe Covid, but that the few that exist showed a high correlation?

I doubt it, given that 98% of the people I've conversed about this since last year know nothing of these interesting factoids, save for perhaps some very brief media coverage about them at one short point or another.

I had seen some what to me looked to be dubious links talking about these treatments. Dubious might not be the best word, perhaps overly hopeful / wish casting type articles, that were dense and not for the lay person (me). 

My take on this is if these treatments were effective people would be all over it. I don't buy that shadow government, Trump hate, or big pharma could or would influence something like this on this scale.

 

[LawFitz]

16 minutes ago, The General said:

I had seen some what to me looked to be dubious links talking about these treatments. Dubious might not be the best word, perhaps overly hopeful / wish casting type articles, that were dense and not for the lay person (me). 

My take on this is if these treatments were effective people would be all over it. I don't buy that shadow government, Trump hate, or big pharma could or would influence something like this on this scale.

 

Stop thinking in terms of a grand conspiracy and more along the lines of an unstable system of interconnected perversions. Think about how the mortgage crisis developed then boiled over from the early to late 2000s. It wasn't one overreaching hand manipulating all of it but rather a number of soiled fingers working interconnectedly to dirty the honey pot.

I think there is a decent chance something analogous is going on here between red/blue politics combined with distinct narratives that were intended to undermine Trump's re-election campaign, combined with perverse financial dealings and incentives up and down the pharma industry and the regulatory bodies that are tasked with overseeing it, and finally combined with a strong and growing political desire from both sides of the aisle to find and employ the most expedient solution to the current state of our covid hampered economy. Put all these distinct but interconnected concepts together and you end up with what some might perceive to be a broader tin foil conspiracy, when it's actually nothing more than a perfect storm of smaller scale perversions.

[LawFitz]

27 minutes ago, Chaz McNulty said:

I do understand some people's resistance to taking the vaccine, but what do you think the consequence of no one taking the vaccine would be?  Do you think things would slowly open back up or do you think the hospitals would get overrun with Covid cases?

I never suggested no one take the vaccine. I think people who are at high risk of severe covid and/or of their own free will to choose to take the vaccine should.

All I am looking for is for people to respectfully mind their own business as it pertains to me and my family's choice with what we do with our healthcare directives.

[LawFitz]

And to be clear, I am not saying I would never consider taking the vaccine. I simply want to wait until a proper amount of time and space has provided a more acceptable level of confidence.

[The General]

4 minutes ago, LawFitz said:

Stop thinking in terms of a grand conspiracy and more along the lines of an unstable system of interconnected perversions. Think about how the mortgage crisis developed then boiled over from the early to late 2000s. It wasn't one overreaching hand manipulating all of it but rather a number of soiled fingers working interconnectedly to dirty the honey pot.

I think there is a decent chance something analogous is going on here between red/blue politics combined with distinct narratives that were intended to undermine Trump's re-election campaign, combined with perverse financial dealings and incentives up and down the pharma industry and the regulatory bodies that are tasked with overseeing it, and finally combined with a strong and growing political desire from both sides of the aisle to find and employ the most expedient solution to the current state of our covid hampered economy. Put all these distinct but interconnected concepts together and you end up with what some might perceive to be a broader tin foil conspiracy, when it's actually nothing more than a perfect storm of smaller scale perversions.

I can't separate the bolded.

It doesn't get past that if these pills and vitamins were effective that is what we would be going with. My medical training stopped at dissecting a frog in middle school, however.

If they are, then hey, that's even better.

[ignatiusjreilly]

2 hours ago, LawFitz said:

Combo of lingering Trump hate and big pharma profiteering IMHO.

I've heard this theory before. Here's the part I don't get: Let's say you're a doctor in Thailand or South Africa or Uruguay. Chances are you probably don't know or care that much about US politics, certainly not to the point where it would impact your treatment decisions. In addition, you might not have access to a lot of the expensive treatments available in the West so you're heavily incentivized to use cheaper alternatives like HCQ. So what's your explanation for why usage of those treatments is no higher in those countries -- and outcomes are no better -- than in the US?

[The Z Machine]

I want to protect even those that don't want to get the vaccine for whatever reason.  I don't want to see people I care about suffer through poor decisions, even if that means taking on a miniscule amount of additional risk personally.

[LawFitz]

44 minutes ago, ignatiusjreilly said:

I've heard this theory before. Here's the part I don't get: Let's say you're a doctor in Thailand or South Africa or Uruguay. Chances are you probably don't know or care that much about US politics, certainly not to the point where it would impact your treatment decisions. In addition, you might not have access to a lot of the expensive treatments available in the West so you're heavily incentivized to use cheaper alternatives like HCQ. So what's your explanation for why usage of those treatments is no higher in those countries -- and outcomes are no better -- than in the US?

Interwebs are full of anecdotal reporting of widespread use of HCQ, ivermectin and other cheaply available treatments in many countries across the globe, particularly highly-populated India and Brazil, to great effect according to the administering doctors. 

Meanwhile take a closer look at the studies that 'debunked' these treatments and you will find a disturbing trend of either misapplication (HCQ without Zinc or vice versa) or mistiming (HCQ and ivermectin being used for late-case, hospitalized patients, when their use case is clearly for early infection only, since they slow/block viral replication - which matters a lot less once the viral load has reached critical mass).

Look up vitamin D and Zinc (plus Zinc ionophores) and their relationship to Covid morbidity/mortality. The press barely covered their highly intriguing correlations. Even to this day, there is zero mention of checking and regulating Zinc, D and C levels prior to infection on the official CDC guidance, which everyone should be absolutely doing, for general immune health even beyond Covid. If you are Vit D or Zinc deficient, your odds of severe Covid go way up, absent mRNA tinkering in your cells. Why isn't this common knowledge by now ???

[LawFitz]

4 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

I want to protect even those that don't want to get the vaccine for whatever reason.  I don't want to see people I care about suffer through poor decisions, even if that means taking on a miniscule amount of additional risk personally.

Fantastic. By all means, get the vax then. I have no issues with you doing that whatsoever, and truly wish you and everyone else the best of luck.

Where I take issue is when someone with your stance demands/commands that I take the vax for the same rationale. And advocates me losing my ability to drive, work or send my kids to school if I don't (yet) feel comfortable enough with the available data to comply.

[ignatiusjreilly]

1 minute ago, LawFitz said:

Fantastic. By all means, get the vax then. I have no issues with you doing that whatsoever, and truly wish you and everyone else the best of luck.

Where I take issue is when someone with your stance demands/commands that I take the vax for the same rationale. And advocates me losing my ability to drive, work or send my kids to school if I don't (yet) feel comfortable enough with the available data to comply.

People are pushing vaccine mandates for drivers?

[The Z Machine]

 

6 minutes ago, LawFitz said:

Where I take issue is when someone with your stance demands/commands that I take the vax for the same rationale.

I think you should get vaccinated to protect yourself and the rest of your community.  I think it's the decent, humane, and ethical thing to do.  I think not doing so undermines the fabric of our collective absent a clear health or religious reason.  For the general population, I believe most of the reasons cited are faulty.

[LawFitz]

16 minutes ago, ignatiusjreilly said:

People are pushing vaccine mandates for drivers?

Look up thread and elsewhere online. People are calling for citizens to be denied driver's licenses, employment, and public schooling without vaccine passports. It's surreal and dystopian.

[LawFitz]

30 minutes ago, The Z Machine said:

 

I think you should get vaccinated to protect yourself and the rest of your community.  I think it's the decent, humane, and ethical thing to do.  I think not doing so undermines the fabric of our collective absent a clear health or religious reason.  For the general population, I believe most of the reasons cited are faulty.

If everyone else in my community has the ability to get freely vaccinated (they do), then your argument doesn't hold water. I think it's unethical for your side to pressure me into something involving my personal health that I don't feel comfortable doing. The fabric of our collective was formed on free will and personal choice and if your side wants to stop playing fantasy football with me over this issue, so be it.

Just please stay away from my personal freedoms. You have absolutely no right to coerce me to inject myself or my children with a still unproven biotechnology. I am willing to the face the risks of Covid. But it is literally impossible for your side to make my family whole if any of us becomes long-term health compromised in a year or three after taking your vax. Why is that simple concept so hard for so many of you to accept?

[H Jass]

10 minutes ago, LawFitz said:

If everyone else in my community has the ability to get freely vaccinated (they do), then your argument doesn't hold water.

I think you also need to take into account that there is not an insignificant amount of folks in your community who literally can’t take the vaccine or have health conditions where the vaccine doesn’t work.  I know of several. They are scared, depressed. Imagine having to depend upon the kindness of people in your community and all you read are myopic views. It sucks. 

Edited July 27 by H Jass

[LawFitz]

36 minutes ago, H Jass said:

I think you also need to take into account that there is not an insignificant amount of folks in your community who literally can’t take the vaccine or have health conditions where the vaccine doesn’t work.  I know of several. They are scared, depressed. Imagine having to depend upon the kindness of people in your community and all you read are myopic views. It sucks. 

I feel for them. I do. But I have to weigh those feelings against my fatherly duty to protect my wife and two very young children to the best of my ability and judgment. 

If this is the angle you want to corner me into, how about we as a society do more to protect such individuals... Not by pressuring people like me to let your side literally invade our bodies, but by subsidizing the at-home protection of such high-risk people until this threat passes. We could surely provide them with the care and facilities they require to be safe if we are able to provide trillions of dollars of stimulus toward the rest of society during this time, can we not?

If we can pay to let them live their lives safely at home, is that not enough? Or will you not be satisfied unless you've oppressed me and others like me by using them to deny me my right to work and avail myself of the freedoms and opportunities I've spent my entire adulthood working towards and paying taxes for - all for trying to do what we conclude is at this stage in this awful process to be least risky for our family's existence.

[lazyike]

7 hours ago, Biff84 said:

Lol at calling a vaccine an experimentation while pushing hydroxychloroquine with YouTube doctor videos.

I know people that are taking Ivomec for Covid, a product used to worm livestock. Like the FDA approved that. A guy I know talked his friend into taking that instead of the vaccine.

[Chaz McNulty]

3 hours ago, LawFitz said:

Look up thread and elsewhere online. People are calling for citizens to be denied driver's licenses, employment, and public schooling without vaccine passports. It's surreal and dystopian.

If I own a plumbing company that does a lot of contract work for hospitals and old age homes.  And one of the requirement from these work sites is that all outside labor needs to be vaccinated.  Do you not believe that the owner of the plumbing company has no right to hire with vaccinations as a qualifier?  

[[scooter]]

3 hours ago, LawFitz said:

Just please stay away from my personal freedoms. You have absolutely no right to coerce me to inject myself or my children with a still unproven biotechnology. I am willing to the face the risks of Covid. But it is literally impossible for your side to make my family whole if any of us becomes long-term health compromised in a year or three after taking your vax. Why is that simple concept so hard for so many of you to accept?

You should have the right to not get vaccinated.

You should not have the right to spread disease to others.

Simple as that.

[Biff84]

1 hour ago, lazyike said:

I know people that are taking Ivomec for Covid, a product used to worm livestock. Like the FDA approved that. A guy I know talked his friend into taking that instead of the vaccine.

My co-worker (pharmacist) is a big believer in the alternative treatments. He also has likely been referring patients to his personal doctor to get these prescriptions which is somewhere between breaking company policy and illegal.

[LawFitz]

1 hour ago, lazyike said:

I know people that are taking Ivomec for Covid, a product used to worm livestock. Like the FDA approved that. A guy I know talked his friend into taking that instead of the vaccine.

This doesn't prove Ivermectin to be a Covid cure, but it most certainly contradicts and exposes your biased characterization above...

Quote

Ivermectin was discovered in 1975 and came into medical use in 1981.[14][15] It is on the World Health Organization's List of Essential Medicines.[16] Ivermectin is FDA-approved as an antiparasitic agent.[17] In 2018, it was the 420th most commonly prescribed medication in the United States, with more than one hundred thousand prescriptions.

Maybe Ivermectin works as a Covid therapy, maybe it doesn't. But it most certainly has a #### ton more history of long-term human use than these Covid vaxxes. Plenty of compelling rationalization to explore long-proven safe alternatives to these new and radical biotechnologies.

[LawFitz]

1 hour ago, Chaz McNulty said:

If I own a plumbing company that does a lot of contract work for hospitals and old age homes.  And one of the requirement from these work sites is that all outside labor needs to be vaccinated.  Do you not believe that the owner of the plumbing company has no right to hire with vaccinations as a qualifier?  

Until they are proven safe in the long-term, I think it's a highly debatable concept.

[LawFitz]

36 minutes ago, [scooter] said:

You should have the right to not get vaccinated.

You should not have the right to spread disease to others.

Simple as that.

And how do enforce such a thing... Strap me down and stick me with your needle? Take away my right to work and live in your society (essentially the same thing in function if not form)? Where do you draw your line?

[LawFitz]

What you guys fail to fully recognize are the long-term implications of such policies. This year they've convinced you to strap me down and inject me with their concoction. Next year they'll tell us a new booster is mandatory - which BTW, is already being developed to fight off the more transmissive, but no more virulent Delta strain - and gotta luv this... The CDC has already announced that no further clinical trials will be required for this new booster, since it will be similar enough in technology to the existing vaccines. Yikes!

You are playing with fire. And you seem unable to see the correlations with our dark past as a species. First They Came...

[LawFitz]

22 minutes ago, Biff84 said:

My co-worker (pharmacist) is a big believer in the alternative treatments. He also has likely been referring patients to his personal doctor to get these prescriptions which is somewhere between breaking company policy and illegal.

Disappointing that you would encourage/validate his characterization of Ivermectin with this response. See my response above. Maybe IVM doesn't work for Covid, despite hundreds, perhaps thousands of real-world doctors claiming it does. Regardless, that post revealed tremendous bias and served zero useful purpose.

You should consider hearing out your compatriot's opinions, rather than stonewalling your judgment of him. If intelligent people in your own field are taking the opposite position, perhaps it's worthy of your further exploration of those viewpoints.

Whatever you choose to do, please don't rat him out. Not sure if that has crossed your mind, but I sincerely hope this discussion doesn't latently fuel that fire. Right or wrong, I can assure you we are all operating with what we perceive to be good intention. We just see a lot more grey here than you do.

[Terminalxylem]

On 7/25/2021 at 8:24 AM, supermike80 said:

You should amend this to read "can" be absolutely terrible.  In most cases, it's not. And that we actually do have data to support 

Almost 4 billion doses of COVID vaccines have been administered, while 200 million have been diagnosed with covid. Why are you confident in one data set, but not the other?

ETA NM, I see jml has it covered. Sigh...

Edited July 27 by Terminalxylem

[Terminalxylem]

14 hours ago, Amused to Death said:

Whatever time I spend researching this topic would pale in comparison to the dedication of my selected medical professional. And frankly, its an insult to the medical community to believe my few hours on social media and youtube could override their advice.

Why waste all that time in med school/residency/fellowship etc. when a few memes and tweets can provide all the info you need?

[Terminalxylem]

14 hours ago, The Commish said:

99% of this has been thoroughly debunked multiple times in multiple threads but it keeps coming back.  Unreal. 

So frustrating, and insulting to those of us who’ve been down this path before.

Hydroxychloroquine in particular has had more negative studies in the last year than I’ve seen for any therapeutic intervention in my career.

[supermike80]

1 hour ago, Terminalxylem said:

Almost 4 billion doses of COVID vaccines have been administered, while 200 million have been diagnosed with covid. Why are you confident in one data set, but not the other?

ETA NM, I see jml has it covered. Sigh...

Boy you guys read selectively often.  Im not confident in any data set. And I've said it too many times

Smh