Insein
Footballguy
They're so unrare that we can just call them cases now. They aren't breaking through anything.
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Can We Civilly Discuss Thoughts On Vaccination? A Poll. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
the moops
Footballguy
Breakthrough cases are not as rare as first anticipated. They are however not resulting in hospitalizations or deaths at any meaningful level. So, as Joe Biden said, get vaccinated and we can indeed get our lives back.
I ony mentioned the flu shot because it is something that many people just religiously get and don't think much of it. Same would go for many if we needed to get annual or bi-annual covid shots
Insein
Footballguy
I have never got a flu shot either. Got the flu once over the last 12 years. Dealt with it. Moved on.
A year and a half into this thing and still with the dramatics.
Get our lives back? What's keeping you from living?
Also, the flu shot is a horrible analogy to use since only 50% ever get one.
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the moops
Footballguy
Huh? I have replied to you before about this same thing. My life is 99% back to normal. I am talking about the entire country. There are places and people who most certainly do not have their lives back to normal
Stealthycat
Footballguy
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/32257114/tampa-bay-buccaneers-put-antonio-brown-covid-19-list
incredibly more vaccinated people testing positive for covid
and if they've got the virus, they can spread the virus
NOT breakthrough when its literally happening everyday
incredibly more vaccinated people testing positive for covid
and if they've got the virus, they can spread the virus
NOT breakthrough when its literally happening everyday
Like I said enough with the dramatics.
If you want to frame it as no one ever can get sick or die then frame it that way. Not "Get our lives back!".
the moops
Footballguy
zoonation
Footballguy
In my city 75% of hospital cases are unvaxxed. 93% of ICU admissions are unvaxxed. Of the vaxxed in hospital all cases are 70+ years old with a majority being immunocompromised.
Ages of the unvaxxed patients run the entire spectrum.. Children to the elderly with many middle aged in hospital.
Ages of the unvaxxed patients run the entire spectrum.. Children to the elderly with many middle aged in hospital.
-fish-
Footballguy
Rocket scientist lives in Washington. He is well aware that this state is back to mandatory masks, even for the vaccinated. Since he only wears them as a chin diaper, he is unaffected.
Herb
Footballguy
Trump isn't the excuse. The people that voted for him are. I'll keep the mask, but thanks for your unbiased and well-thought-out feedback. Oh, andIs But Trump! your excuse for everything?
HTH - Masks were never the kryptonite to the Covid, especially now the vaccine is available to anyone who wants it. Ditch the mask.
just for you, in a language you understand. HTH
Herb
Footballguy
Like having a serious, acute medical issue crop up and not being able to receive the necessary treatment at the hospital because it's filled with C-19 patients that have opinions on vaccination? Then dying as a result? Like a close family friend did recently? Pure selfishness.
Herb
Footballguy
I can't even. Sorry man, but this subject hits a serious nerve with me and you are flat out wrong. When people with cancer or in need of a transplant are getting procedures postponed because the hospital is full of dying people that refuse to take a simple jab, that IS public safety. And it is being compromised. For no good reason.
Max Power
Footballguy
A lot of people make a lot of decisions in life. To blame the unvaccinated is simplistic and foolish.
I am sorry to hear about your loss. You have to keep moving forward.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Insein
Footballguy
Yea when that happens, let me know because other than anecdotal stories from people like you, Ive yet to see that happen in an actual hospital. What I have seen and there's evidence to back it up is during 2020 people were having treatments or surgeries delayed due to government enforced lockdowns telling them they couldn't come to the hospital out of fear of being overrun. Except they never were. So blame the government for creating a public health crisis where none existed.
Insein
Footballguy
I haven't got a shot. My life's been pretty normal for over a year except for the authoritarian overreach that pops up here and there. That plus stuff being out of stock and overpriced lately.
Herb
Footballguy
Do you work in a hospital? I do, 2 of them actually. Your opinion is killing people. I know ER and ICU nurses that have stopped feeling empathy for people that are on death's door because they are dying from an illness they refused to believe was a big deal. They have seen sick people turned away due to overcrowding caused from Covid surges, then die as a result. I got nothing against you personally, but my evidence, while anecdotal to you, is reality kicking me in the ####ing teeth. Believe the media or whomever you want is to blame, but to me, you're to blame. And everything I see EVERY DAY at work supports that opinion.
Insein
Footballguy
So in my job I stare at data all day for pharmaceutical companies. I look at trends of sales and talk to representatives from all the major firms. If I go by your philosophy, I should consider the world to be nothing but for profit grind and feel no empathy for the millions of people affected by the hundreds of drugs I see coming across in all this data. Combine that with the reps that care for nothing but making sure their sales people get their contest payouts for the latest wonder drug they push on doctors who happily lap it up to get their kick backs on the whole ponzi scheme, I should see doctors as killing people for profit.
Thankfully, I don't view the world through the myopic lense of my job and accuse people I know nothing about personally of killing people for making a medical decision.
supermike80
Footballguy
Those ER and ICU nurses should be fired immediately. Its disgusting to me that medical professionals think like this.
I suppose they feel no sympathy for aids sufferers as well right? Heck they know the risks....too bad for them.
Horrible terrible disgusting people and anyone that agrees with this kind of mindset is as well.
Wow.
opensourcebeer
Footballguy
Did you make your medical decision regarding vaccination based on a conversation with your physician?
zoonation
Footballguy
Max Power
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
Yeah, every human being walking the face of this earth has a breaking point. It's not shocking that some in the healthcare industry have reached theirs. That's NOT an indictment on them personally rather society as a whole. I have no problem whatsoever with a healthcare professional, who's been treating thousands of people over the last year and a half, drawing a line at some point. They deserve it. To expect them to be unconditionally dedicated to people indefinitely is, well, laughable, especially when a vast majority of the people they are seeing now are in the hospital because they chose not to do the right thing themselves.
supermike80
Footballguy
Nope. Thats their job. If they can't handle it then quit and let people who actually care do it. I guess a doctor should just kinda not REALLY treat that patient with lung cancer that has smoked for 30 years. He deserves it
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Herb
Footballguy
Live it for a couple of years like me and my coworkers have and then I'll care a smidgen about your opinion on the matter. The decisions these people have made to not get vaccinated, based on fear, politics, religion, or whatever rationale, are directly responsible for killing others. You're going to witness that first hand for this long and not get to a breaking point? Then you'd be the one without feelings.
Herb
Footballguy
I will also offer the mea culpa that this thread is about civil discussion and I apologize if I have not lived up to that. I'm not trying to be a Richard. But this thing is eating healthcare workers away from the inside and there is no end in sight. We're exhausted and angry. And we're not getting help.
-fish-
Footballguy
Good article here on burnout and clinical empathy.
I have seen the inapt analogies to smoking or obesity repeated ad nauseum in this forum. Neither of those spreads a preventable infectious disease to others. Neither of those keeps a pandemic going or creates a cesspool of the unvaccinated that breeds variants that may end up defeating the vaccines that we have. Of course the people that are having to deal with this every single day are going to end up resenting the foolishness and selfishness that is driving it.
Saying "well, then quit" is just incredibly daft. How would you replace these doctors and nurses? Where are you going to make up the years of training? The people blaming health care workers for being frustrated are generally the same people that are the reason for their frustration. Science deniers, conspiracy theorists, or just too stubborn or foolish to even consider others while they make poor decisions that they wrongly believe are in their own self interest. At some point, rational people can stop pretending that these are valid opinions that should be tolerated.
the moops
Footballguy
The Commish
Footballguy
Awesome. First thing is, their JOB is to provide treatment. That's it. It's not to feel bad for them or be empathetic to their poor decision making.Second, to your example, (even though it's off, it's close enough we can work with it for once) I'd agree a doctor should work with their patients if the patient has a desire for help and does their part to get there. If a patient is going for lung cancer treatments and continues smoking through the whole thing, I'm fine with the doctor telling them to pound sand and find another doctor.
I'm a firm believer in meeting people where they are and there's just no point in wasting time on people who aren't willing to help themselves. If I'm not willing to help myself, what right do I have to expect/demand other people to help me? It's probably the best illustration I can think of when it comes to a person completely lacking in self awareness.
And the irony of your position here compared to "they are just lazy and don't want to work, so screw them" attitude you've expressed in many of the other threads is not lost on me....well done
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supermike80
Footballguy
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Shutout
Footballguy
I think the true irony here is that you emphatically state what you argue against. Read your own statement and apply it the other way. If an unvaccinated person comes to be treated then.....insert YOUR statement...it is their JOB is to provide treatment. That's it. Which extends to the unvaccinated person the same stipulations as the vaccinated. It is not the position of the treating person to pass judgment. It is simply their job to provide the service they trained to do, got a job to do, and, hopefully, said they WANT to do for people.The Commish said:
Second, to your example, (even though it's off, it's close enough we can work with it for once) I'd agree a doctor should work with their patients if the patient has a desire for help and does their part to get there. If a patient is going for lung cancer treatments and continues smoking through the whole thing, I'm fine with the doctor telling them to pound sand and find another doctor.
I'm a firm believer in meeting people where they are and there's just no point in wasting time on people who aren't willing to help themselves. If I'm not willing to help myself, what right do I have to expect/demand other people to help me? It's probably the best illustration I can think of when it comes to a person completely lacking in self awareness.
And the irony of your position here compared to "they are just lazy and don't want to work, so screw them" attitude you've expressed in many of the other threads is not lost on me....well done
So instead of passing judgment, how about just do your job. And if you're tired of doing the job, remove yourself and let someone else do it. There is no shame in being tired or frustrated but you're not improving the situation by criticizing people for their choices, whether you agree with them or not. I am sure there are many doctors out there that treat lung cancer patients and spend a lot of their time on them, yet they don't agree with the patient's choice to smoke. Heck, my mom's General Practitioner doctor smoked and died of cancer. People are human and things happen when they make choices. people are inhumane when they don't respect basic rights of others.
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the moops
Footballguy
the moops
Footballguy
Almost 90% of nurses are vaccinated - higher than the general population by a good margin. Can you explain that?
Herb
Footballguy
Hell no I can't. I'm completely bewildered.
Two of my unvaccinated coworkers were sharing a story the other day about some case of the vaccine causing tinnitus in a recipient. They were excited; practically gleeful. These are healthcare professionals that take their jobs seriously. People I work closely with, get along with and respect. I found myself saddened by it.
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Terminalxylem
Footballguy
And people outside the field have the audacity to suggest we’re not empathetic enough…or easily replaced.Herb said:
I’ve been in healthcare nearly 20 years, and nothing has tried my patience like the anti-vaccine movement. It’s much easier to empathize with people addicted to drugs, eating, and other self-inflicted health problems. Most of them don’t deny the problem exists, nor do they have such a simple and easily accessible solution to their illness. Moreover, smokers, drug users and obese people haven’t caused such a dramatic disruption to the rest of society. And they can’t transmit their problems to me.
GordonGekko
Footballguy
OK, so let's unpack a practical compromise.
I believe people should have the right to determine what is or is not injected into their bodies. I also believe our society overall should have the ability to function for the greater overall good of the collective.
My first compromise would be all front line medical and health care personnel who are dealing with COVID19 be given one of two choices for additional compensation
Option 1 - Loan forgiveness for their health care/medical care based education. Many people going into some type of medicine are effectively putting out a mortgage on their education. I don't have a problem and I believe most Americans would not have a problem with loan forgiveness here.
Option 2 - X dollars a month ( up to a max of 1000 dollars), untaxed to you and other health care personnel, but only can be drawn out upon retirement age. You can invest it as you see fit, but you can't withdraw it for any reason before retirement.
The amounts would be scaled to amount of actual "service time" in said health care industry. If you've given 20 years of blood and sweat taking care of patients, that's a different investment than someone who has done it for two years. The longer you've given service, the more you get.
My second compromise would be any hospital in America can deny service to anyone who is unvaccinated. By and large, I still believe those who chose not to get vaccinated are talking a calculated risk under which the majority are winning that bet. There are not 150 million Americans flooding hospitals right now.
But, if you bet and lose, that's on you. I find that completely fair.
The exemptions should be children ( obviously), all first responders ( current or fully retired) and military combat veterans ( current or retired)
If you picked up a rifle to defend America, if you are vaccinated or not, you should receive medical care in this country. If you fought fires or performed surgeries or patrolled neighborhoods for 30 years, even if you aren't vaccinated, you should receive medical care in this country.
The caveat being the CEOs of Big Medicine and Big Pharma have to take turns, face to face, one on one, and being recorded as such, tell these people directly that they will be denied service. Then those videos are uploaded onto a national website for all to see. If Big Medicine CEO big wigs want to scoop up every dollar possible, let them, but make it public that people die based on their decisions. If some of them end up getting social backlash and get stabbed in a parking lot over it, so be it.
Also the photos of everyone rejected will have their picture taken and will be placed on the walls around the front entrance of said hospital or said medical facility. If there's a bypass for the Hippocratic Oath, even for a practical functional reason, then everyone should look at the faces of those left to die.
I would consider this a fair compromise. Hospitals and ERs are no longer swamped from operational readiness to serve the overall community around them. Those who took a bet against the vaccine and lost, well too bad. You rolled the dice and it didn't work out. Some ##### nozzle big wig Big Medicine CEO will be socially shunned and spit on in public for their greed, probably right before they get stabbed to death in some empty parking lot by some random angry about it all. Those who have given service are still provided for regardless of their vaccination status.
Our society cannot function if our first responders are ground to dust. That's not practical and this situation is not sustainable. If you lose a bet, you should eat the loss.
But in exchange, all first responders and all primary caregivers and such will cease all discussion about the unvaccinated. You sign a contract saying you will just stop talking about it period. You get some extra money/loan forgiveness, your workload is not an avalanche anymore, the increased risk to you is mitigated, those who didn't get the jab don't have to become your burden, but you have to look at their faces everyday you walk in and you don't get to complain about any of it anymore, because IMHO, this proposal addresses the core complaints.
I do NOT want to see America's health care workers and first responders to be treated and handled in a long standing punitive manner from COVID19. That doesn't help our society and it doesn't help our health care system overall. On the flip side, SOME people in the health care field and SOME first responders, not all but there are many, if they get relief and are given incentives, can stop the virtue signaling, victim talk and using this as a political platform to grind an axe. Because this issue is heavily politicized.
I'm sure that might tweak some people, leaving the unvaccinated to shuffle off and die. But it might also tweak some people where I just come out and say NOT every single last health care worker and first responder is some kind of hero and should be lauded over just for showing up. Duty was never designed as a pathway for public accolades.
I've said this before - Some of us can die, or we can all die. If our entire health care system collapses because of COVID19 attrition, where does that leave our future? It's a death sentence. It's the same death sentence as that idiotic "Defund The Police" movement that shuffles away legitimate talent away from a law enforcement career.
Terminalxylem, let me know if you consider this proposal a functional compromise to your concerns.
The Commish
Footballguy
If you can show ANY part of the conversation prior to your post where people aren't doing their job and just preaching at the individuals, we can talk. Until then, you've just created another straw man that no one is arguing and a situation no one is talking about.
Conversation started with this post:
I was just assuming people knew what the word empathy meant, but maybe not?Herb said:
Terminalxylem
Footballguy
In a word, no.
No healthcare provider willingly allows patients with treatable conditions to die, assuming they want treatment.
There’s no monetary incentive appropriate for that.
I’d rather we pressure anti-vax people to do the right thing, by excluding them from participating in normal society, for choosing to place others at risk. I’d prefer private businesses exert this pressure, rather than achieve it via government mandates. One exception is schools, which I hope one day will make vaccination a requirement for public education, as adults will never reach 90%+ vaccinated on their own volition.
I’m convinced we’d never have achieved near eradication of polio, measles and other vaccine-preventable infections in our current sociopolitical environment. Somehow we’ve conflated freedom with mindless disobedience, and subjugated scientific expertise to social media charlatans. It’s pretty disgusting, really, and there’s no good reason to believe we can right the ship.
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Navin Johnson
Footballguy
Rich Conway
Footballguy
I'm not sure I understand the question. Nurses are vaccinated at a level higher than the general population. Are you asking why there are any who refuse? Occam's Razor would seem to apply here. No matter the profession, there will be some who are just misguided, uninformed, or just plain incompetent. There are some bad lawyers, some bad teachers, some bad everything.
Rich Conway
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/24/politics/kamala-harris-the-view/index.html
Why would Harris care if two vaccinated people on the View had covid?
Why would Harris care if two vaccinated people on the View had covid?
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