I need some more daughter advice- this time from fellow atheists (1 Viewer)

[Buttonhook]

So it's better to have a kid that is never exposed to religion? How can you then expect your kid to be "open-minded?"

When my daughter does learn about religion and wants to know more I will take her to a Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Hindu, etc. churches.

Exactly. My daughter is 11 and is starting to attend a Christian youth group. After her third meeting she came home spewing out stories about Christ, Adam and Eve, etc., like it was the Greatest Story Ever Told. My first response was to inform her there are many ways to show faith, to believe in God, and the Christian way is only one of many. She was very intrigued by this and we will be spending time online this weekend researching and exploring other religions. Whether she follows through with pursuing other religions I don't know, but I do know the next time she attends the same youth group she will have a much more open mind and understand that she has the freedom to develop and express her faith however she wants.

 

[matuski]

Not sure I see the problem here. One of two things is going to happen:

1. There is no God and she'll lose interest (you have no interest).

2. There is a God and you'll see a remarkable change in her heart and wonder if there isn't something to this God thing.

Either way, your child is going to be fine. Right?

I already think of my daughter as a fine person. I also believe that religion can, for some people, be a very positive element in their lives. The actual existence of God is irrelevant to that fact, so I don't accept your premise.

I will go against the grain here and tell you to let her explore, but whatever you do, don't talk to her about it. Posts like this make it clear that you really don't understand the belief system. You will be as helpful as someone talking to her in a language she doesn't understand. That's not meant to be offensive, but I do think it's important that one understands the theology if they are going to try and rail against it. Otherwise you end up sounding like one of these idiots saying global warming can't exist because it's so freakin' cold outside. If you have family that is more in tune with the theology, perhaps you could have her speak with them?

Ridiculous in too many ways.

You are no more an expert on believing in invisible supernatural beings than anyone else. There is no different language to understand, no science to comprehend.

The kid has been going to church activities for a few weeks/months and you think it would be beyond us (most who grew up in churches) to discuss it?

eta - "whatever you do, don't talk to your daughter about it" - when is this ever the right parenting advice?

 

[Politician Spock]

I don't want my daughter coming to believe that I am bound for hell, and I'm pretty sure they are going to teach her that.

This is very, very likely.

If you are truly willing to let her pursue this, then you have to also be willing to accept this result.

 

[wikkidpissah]

- if she's 13, you've already created how she's going to be about this.

- didactics are the calling card of the child of breaking-away age, so she will be on both of you about it if she sticks with it. when the time comes, tell her that if she is unwilling to respect your own personal searches/conclusions, you can't be expected to respect hers. 'we just don't know, honey - may your guess give you peace and purpose'.

- if you want to mess with her head just a bit, tell her the dirty little secret of conversion/revelation. the human organism, like all others, is designed to thrive. part of the human success process involves giving up one's low, animal attempts at mastery of self and others to the glorious bigness of the life process and the majestic rewards of cooperation with a force that doesn't need anyone but invites all. the executive function that takes over when one 'gives their life to christ' will take over if one gives their life to family, beauty, vin scully or jello. nufced.

- good luck

 

[captain_amazing]

Not sure I see the problem here. One of two things is going to happen:

1. There is no God and she'll lose interest (you have no interest).

2. There is a God and you'll see a remarkable change in her heart and wonder if there isn't something to this God thing.

Either way, your child is going to be fine. Right?

If your kid needs religion to be a better person you ####ing failed as a parent.

no one said anything about "being a better person" but I agree 100%. If you're relying on religion to do that, you have problems.

What if they're problems that religion can solve?

Like what?

You honestly think that nothing good can come out of finding religion?

Two chicks at the same time?That's all I got.

 

[Politician Spock]

Not sure I see the problem here. One of two things is going to happen:

1. There is no God and she'll lose interest (you have no interest).

2. There is a God and you'll see a remarkable change in her heart and wonder if there isn't something to this God thing.

Either way, your child is going to be fine. Right?

If your kid needs religion to be a better person you ####ing failed as a parent.

no one said anything about "being a better person" but I agree 100%. If you're relying on religion to do that, you have problems.

What if they're problems that religion can solve?

Like?

Unless it was you personally, you have no idea. I didnt go through it personally myself, but I have to trust the thousands of people that claim God saved them from addiction after nothing else worked. When you have a guy like Brian "Head" Welch who was addicted to meth and suddenly quits and he gives credit to Jesus, how do explain that? Call him a liar?

The fact that a church acts as a support group could explain it. Most people have the power to make the changes in their lives that they attribute to God, but lacked the support from peer groups that is typically needed for such changes to occur. The sense of belonging to an elite club is powerful.

 

[joffer]

I'd listen to Meatwad Phelps back on page one. That guy seems solid.

 

[Fennis]

at least send her to a less nutty church. being an evangelist will make it impossible for the rest of the family to live with her.

 

[Gr00vus]

Tim, you need to check out the church at least once. Attend a service and just look and listen. Keep your mouth shut. You'll be able to tell if it's a run of the mill faith deal or something more sinister/creepy/bat #### crazy. That's your responsibility as a parent of a 13 year old. At least you'll have a better notion of what you'll be dealing with and how you'll approach handling it.

 

[timschochet]

Tim, you need to check out the church at least once. Attend a service and just look and listen. Keep your mouth shut. You'll be able to tell if it's a run of the mill faith deal or something more sinister/creepy/bat #### crazy. That's your responsibility as a parent of a 13 year old. At least you'll have a better notion of what you'll be dealing with and how you'll approach handling it.

Yeah I suppose you're right.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I don't want my daughter coming to believe that I am bound for hell, and I'm pretty sure they are going to teach her that.

This is very, very likely.If you are truly willing to let her pursue this, then you have to also be willing to accept this result.

Of course if she becomes a Christian this will be the result. It's only THE foundational tenet of Christianity.

 

[tommyboy]

Tim, in life as we get older usually around college age we come to realize our parents are just people too, with their own flaws. They're not just Mom & Dad.

Same thing in reverse. Your kids are people that can and will choose their own way, and that's normal. Just let it happen and accept who they are

 

[joffer]

Definitely remember the day I realized my dad was just as full of #### as the next guy

 

[boots11234]

Hi Tim,

I know you and I have butted heads over the years... but for your daughter's sake, please consider my opinion that your concerns are valid. I won't share anymore than that unless you ask.

Thanks. I butt heads with practically everyone- so what?I agree, of course, that my concerns are valid, but there doesn't seem to be much for me to do other than let it go and hope for the best. Do you have contradictory advice?

I wish I did. I kind of agree that she should be free to pursue what she wants to pursue. But my two issues with that are: 1) she's not an adult yet, so perhaps that needs to be exercised within reason; and 2) it doesn't sound like she pursued this. She was recruited.The most passionate Christians are the ones that were introduced to Christianity when they were most vulnerable. They either committed to it very young, or they were dealing with a huge emotional issue in their life, and Christianity helped them get out of it. The person who commits to it soundly and logically is rare.

ETA: love for another (spouse, girl/boy friend, parent, etc...) is another reason they commit to it.

So in general you think that being religious is a net negative?

 

[The Commish]

Look Commish, though I've read some books on the subject as I've stated, I don't really get into Christian theology because I don't believe in God in the first place. That's a separate discussion than the particulars of the New Testament.

As regards the New Testament, I actually like a lot of what Christ has to say about life on Earth, if I understand him correctly. As I mentioned, he repeats several of the positive messages of the Talmud: love your neighbor, try not to judge, help the needy, be a good person, be happy, try to do what's right, etc. I have tried to instill these morals into my daughter, and if these are reinforced by her exposure to a Christian church, then that's all for the good as far as I'm concerned.

What I dislike is the Calvinistic tone of some Christians: everyone is a sinner, good works mean nothing, you are doomed unless you accept Christ into your heart, but even if you do you might be doomed anyhow, etc. And I've noticed that despite Christ's discussion of not judging, there's a heck of a lot of judgment that goes on.

Of course....sin is runs rampant in all of us throughout the earth. I've never heard this though

You've never heard of Predestination?

Ah yes....and it's not really supported by scripture all that well at least in terms of being counter to free will. That's 2-3 other threads though and really not any impact on one's salvation if you ever understand it completely (or not)

 

[Politician Spock]

Hi Tim,

I know you and I have butted heads over the years... but for your daughter's sake, please consider my opinion that your concerns are valid. I won't share anymore than that unless you ask.

Thanks. I butt heads with practically everyone- so what?I agree, of course, that my concerns are valid, but there doesn't seem to be much for me to do other than let it go and hope for the best. Do you have contradictory advice?

I wish I did. I kind of agree that she should be free to pursue what she wants to pursue. But my two issues with that are: 1) she's not an adult yet, so perhaps that needs to be exercised within reason; and 2) it doesn't sound like she pursued this. She was recruited.The most passionate Christians are the ones that were introduced to Christianity when they were most vulnerable. They either committed to it very young, or they were dealing with a huge emotional issue in their life, and Christianity helped them get out of it. The person who commits to it soundly and logically is rare.

ETA: love for another (spouse, girl/boy friend, parent, etc...) is another reason they commit to it.

So in general you think that being religious is a net negative?

Religious? No.

Organized religion? Absolutely.

 

[PIK95]

I thought this was a non religious people thread?

 

[McGarnicle]

- if she's 13, you've already created how she's going to be about this.

- didactics are the calling card of the child of breaking-away age, so she will be on both of you about it if she sticks with it. when the time comes, tell her that if she is unwilling to respect your own personal searches/conclusions, you can't be expected to respect hers. 'we just don't know, honey - may your guess give you peace and purpose'.

- if you want to mess with her head just a bit, tell her the dirty little secret of conversion/revelation. the human organism, like all others, is designed to thrive. part of the human success process involves giving up one's low, animal attempts at mastery of self and others to the glorious bigness of the life process and the majestic rewards of cooperation with a force that doesn't need anyone but invites all. the executive function that takes over when one 'gives their life to christ' will take over if one gives their life to family, beauty, vin scully or jello. nufced.

- good luck

All kinds of wisdom up in here.

 

[AAABatteries]

eta - "whatever you do, don't talk to your daughter about it" - when is this ever the right parenting advice?

When you're a Dad and your daughter gets her first period?

 

[joffer]

Let it run its course, even if that course leads to her being a true believer. But make sure to continue to instill in her values of inclusion, tolerance, understanding of different faiths and different people.

You cannot instill those values in her by telling her she has no right to her faith, any more than you could by telling her she can't be an atheist. Discuss what's going on there and let her make her own decisions. She's 13. It's time for her to start figuring out what she believes, whatever it is.

amazing how often the first reply in these threads is the best.

 

[lakerstan]

Atheist here. I think this is how I would put it:

"There are many religions in this world, and there are some people, like me, who don't believe in any type of supreme being. Don't sell yourself short by just learning one of them. Take time to learn about others, and realize that most of them are basically telling you to be a good person. Whether you need a reason, like religion, to help you do that, it is up to you. But just like you wouldn't want someone to tell you to eat hamburgers, and only hamburgers, you don't want people to tell you what to believe. Life is a buffet - you get to choose what you want"

 

[lakerstan]

Ok that was my PC answer. My real answer is, "I could never worship someone who would cause me eternal pain just because I don't believe in him - because that's kind of a d##k thing to do..."

 

[CowboysFromHell]

Atheist here. I think this is how I would put it:

"There are many religions in this world, and there are some people, like me, who don't believe in any type of supreme being. Don't sell yourself short by just learning one of them. Take time to learn about others, and realize that most of them are basically telling you to be a good person. Whether you need a reason, like religion, to help you do that, it is up to you. But just like you wouldn't want someone to tell you to eat hamburgers, and only hamburgers, you don't want people to tell you what to believe. Life is a buffet - you get to choose what you want"

This. Plus, never let anyone else dictate what you believe. Every opinion is as valid as the next when it comes to faith. Question everything.

 

[CowboysFromHell]

I'd love to see the list of things that religion can solve but would be otherwise unsolvable.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

http://imgur.com/JSvfTpk

 

[Riversco]

The U.S. intelligence community has retreated from claims that two emails in Hillary Clintons private account contained top secret information, a source familiar with the situation told POLITICO.
The determination came from Director of National Intelligence James Clappers office and concluded that the two emails did not include highly classified intelligence secrets. Concerns about the emails' classification helped trigger an on-going FBI inquiry into Clinton's private email set-up.


Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/hillary-clinton-email-no-highly-classified-215599#ixzz3qjvL9p5T

well its from Politico and it can't be trusted.

And it's also from James Clapper and can't be trusted.

Here is an example of Tim handling a debate on an issue.

I suggest that whenever his daughter brings home some philosophy from the church group that he dislikes, he dismissively waves his hand in the air and tells her "that's from x and cannot be trusted."

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

The U.S. intelligence community has retreated from claims that two emails in Hillary Clintons private account contained top secret information, a source familiar with the situation told POLITICO.

The determination came from Director of National Intelligence James Clappers office and concluded that the two emails did not include highly classified intelligence secrets. Concerns about the emails' classification helped trigger an on-going FBI inquiry into Clinton's private email set-up.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/hillary-clinton-email-no-highly-classified-215599#ixzz3qjvL9p5T

well its from Politico and it can't be trusted.

And it's also from James Clapper and can't be trusted.

Here is an example of Tim handling a debate on an issue.

I suggest that whenever his daughter brings home some philosophy from the church group that he dislikes, he dismissively waves his hand in the air and tells her "that's from x and cannot be trusted."

:whoosh:

 

[timschochet]

The U.S. intelligence community has retreated from claims that two emails in Hillary Clintons private account contained top secret information, a source familiar with the situation told POLITICO.

The determination came from Director of National Intelligence James Clappers office and concluded that the two emails did not include highly classified intelligence secrets. Concerns about the emails' classification helped trigger an on-going FBI inquiry into Clinton's private email set-up.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2015/11/hillary-clinton-email-no-highly-classified-215599#ixzz3qjvL9p5T

well its from Politico and it can't be trusted.And it's also from James Clapper and can't be trusted.

Here is an example of Tim handling a debate on an issue.

I suggest that whenever his daughter brings home some philosophy from the church group that he dislikes, he dismissively waves his hand in the air and tells her "that's from x and cannot be trusted."

Seriously?

 

[Wrigley]

my link

 

[Zegras11]

Fair enough, but for many people, they go hand in hand.

But they shouldn't. And if people insist that they do, I have a hard time believing they are interested in any sort of meaningful dialogue. There is a significant difference.

The difference between religion and faith is huge. So many here confuse what's wrong with religion with faith.

People that live by faith are likely to have the mindset of helping people less fortunate than themselves.

I know this is a stretch and I'm going to have a little fun here with Tim, but the fact he's worried about this means faith must exist. Lol.

Tim, there are a lot of churches based on faith and focused on just helping the less fortunate. As long as she is in that kind of environment she will be fine.

 

[matuski]

eta - "whatever you do, don't talk to your daughter about it" - when is this ever the right parenting advice?

When you're a Dad and your daughter gets her first period?

Uh... mom!

 

[cstu]

Let it run its course, even if that course leads to her being a true believer. But make sure to continue to instill in her values of inclusion, tolerance, understanding of different faiths and different people.

You cannot instill those values in her by telling her she has no right to her faith, any more than you could by telling her she can't be an atheist. Discuss what's going on there and let her make her own decisions. She's 13. It's time for her to start figuring out what she believes, whatever it is.

Exactly.  Einstein's atheist parents allowed him to become very religious as a kid but then:

Einstein’s exposure to science and math produced a sudden transformation at age 12, just as he would have been readying for a bar mitzvah. He suddenly gave up Judaism. That decision does not appear to have been drawn from Bernstein’s books because the author made clear he saw no contradiction between science and religion. As he put it, “The religious inclination lies in the dim consciousness that dwells in humans that all nature, including the humans in it, is in no way an accidental game, but a work of lawfulness that there is a fundamental cause of all existence.” Einstein would later come close to these sentiments. But at the time, his leap away from faith was a radical one.

“Through the reading of popular scientific books, I soon reached the conviction that much in the stories of the Bible could not be true. The consequence was a positively fanatic orgy of free thinking coupled with the impression that youth is intentionally being deceived by the state through lies; it was a crushing impression.”

http://www.feelguide.com/2011/06/11/the-fascinating-story-of-einsteins-childhood-his-rebellious-youth-and-his-definition-of-god/

 

[Chemical X]

:whoosh:

he means me

 

[zoonation]

Not sure I see the problem here. One of two things is going to happen:

1. There is no God and she'll lose interest (you have no interest).

2. There is a God and you'll see a remarkable change in her heart and wonder if there isn't something to this God thing.

Either way, your child is going to be fine. Right?

Lol. Nice analysis here.  My lord.  

 

[zoonation]

This is a great thread and very civil for this forum. 

In my view, there is a danger in taking the position that this may be a fad, or something more, and taking a passive parenting response.  Tim is a thoughtful atheist and, so far as I can tell, has a lot invested in that world view.  Part of that world view, I suspect, includes the observation that religion is not based on evidence.  At all.  

I think the reason he started this thread is that he feels a parenting obligation to disabuse his child of some of the rhetoric and fanaticism that she is drinking up like a chocolate milkshake right now.  

Will she she ultimately conclude the whole thing is bs?  Probably.  Apple and the tree and all that.  But does that mean he should not guide her through this funhouse?   Of course not. 

 

[McGarnicle]

Hey where the hell is Tim anyway? He hasn't posted since Friday????? That's like a normal person going a month without food or water. I hope someone knows him IRL and can confirm he's alright. Jesus.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Hey where the hell is Tim anyway? He hasn't posted since Friday????? That's like a normal person going a month without food or water. I hope someone knows him IRL and can confirm he's alright. Jesus.

It's been a ####### great week.

 

[msommer]

He reportedly got a week off for backing a sratement of juniornb's. I didn't read the statement, but the trumpettes were all up in arms. Something with Sharia law, I think

 

[McGarnicle]

Tim got a timeout, yeah right.