cloppbeast
Footballguy
How one feels about Lindsay appears to correlate negatively to how one feels about Freeman. These threads could get even more interesting in the coming games.
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RB Phillip Lindsay, IND (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Interseptopus
- Start date
ericttspikes
Footballguy
He's 40 pounds lighter than Jalen Richard, which is an eye opener. I was amazed he got 15 carries. That's more than Cohen has ever gotten and that guy is 10 pounds heavier and tough as nails. It really doesn't make sense and almost seems like a coaching mistake. I guess we'll see. Still think Royce will be a stud. Are we sure Royce wasn't banged up last week? Not really sure why they'd give the 165 guy 15 carries when the 238 guy got the same ypc. Seems dumb.
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
If Freeman is doing his 3 yard and a cloud of dust business, I can see Lindsay getting some carries.
We'll see though. I wouldn't want to have to start any Broncos RB. If by flex you mean bye week filler, yes.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
He's much more explosive than Buck Allen - I don't think he can hold up for more than 10-14 touches per game but I think it's safe to say he'll be involved in the gameplans.He’s Buck Allen, only probably won’t have the same opportunity since Freeman isn’t a fumbler & his coach isn’t a “punish the runner by benching him” kinda dude hat I’ve seen.
I was actually impressed by how well he was able to run inside the tackles - he even moved a few piles. Pretty impressive runner.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Todem
Footballguy
He represents great flex value in PPR leagues. What he did week 1 is something you would want most weeks. Expecting more than that is crazy talk at this point. I love small guys....I root for small guys in every sport (especially baseball). They had to work harder and really stand out to get what they deserve vs the blue chip stud guys. It is always a great story.
He does have Warrick Dunn like potential. And we are due for another Warrick Dunn type in the NFL. Tarik Cohen is the same type of back.....but I like Lindsay's vision better as a pure runner.
I picked him up in both my dynasty league (45 bucks out of 100 because we have a 12 man league with 22 roster spots and the WW is slim pickings) and redraft this week.
I love his flex value. If Royce does miss some time his value goes up as he will get 17-20 touches potentially.
He does have Warrick Dunn like potential. And we are due for another Warrick Dunn type in the NFL. Tarik Cohen is the same type of back.....but I like Lindsay's vision better as a pure runner.
I picked him up in both my dynasty league (45 bucks out of 100 because we have a 12 man league with 22 roster spots and the WW is slim pickings) and redraft this week.
I love his flex value. If Royce does miss some time his value goes up as he will get 17-20 touches potentially.
Todem
Footballguy
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Todem
Footballguy
Far more talented than Buck Allen.....man...give the guy some more credit than that right?
A really nice COP back with very good hands and explosive. He looks very hungry. And yeah....was very impressive between the tackles.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Freeman averaged 4.17 YPC on Sunday.
he scores a TD, he’s got 13.1 points which is RB2-worthy.
Lindsay had 100 YFS with a TD. Also RB2-worthy.
but projections-wise, I’m adjusting Lindsey down a little and Freeman up as the season goes on.
Todem
Footballguy
Very reasonable to do that.Freeman averaged 4.17 YPC on Sunday.
he scores a TD, he’s got 13.1 points which is RB2-worthy.
Lindsay had 100 YFS with a TD. Also RB2-worthy.
but projections-wise, I’m adjusting Lindsey down a little and Freeman up as the season goes on.
I think Denver loves the situation.
They have a nice looking 1-2 punch of thunder and lighting. Nothing wrong with that.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Buck Allen is made to hold up though - that’s partly my point. Undersized backs can be evaluated in two ways to determine pickup value IMO
1. COP/3rd down role.
2. Upside if the “starter” in that committee gets hurt.
Allen has both. Lindsay is highly questionable as a feature back for any length of time if Freeman were to go down IMO.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
It definitely was a surprise, and your conjecture about Freeman being slightly banged up may explain usage. I don't think anyone expects him to have the same consistent usage -- @Hot Sauce Guy nails it with this being a ceiling game -- but it's hard to deny production and electricity when you see it.
He won't displace Freeman, and he may be more of a matchup-dependent back, but it's hard to see how after that performance he won't get further usage as a COP/passing down back, and if Booker continues to be a dullard, this guy will, IMHO, hold value in PPR leagues as a flex starter.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Agree with everything but the last part. If Freeman goes down, I could see Lindsay as splitting work with Booker :X that week, maaaaaaaybe splitting 60-40 with booker the next week, and then Denver bringing in another “Thunder” type.
Cant have 2 Lightning’s.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Allen may have a better build but doesn't have the talent to be a feature back, as more than a one or two game stop gap. Classic JAG.
He'd end up splitting carries, just like Lindsay would - but Lindsay would have the greater upside.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Also, not to pee on the Cheerios of this topic or anything, but while we mention Lindsay’s value were Freeman to sustain an injury, we should probably also acknowledge that smaller/lighter backs get dinged up with greater frequency. Of the two, Lindsay is probably the greater injury risk, especially if they keep pounding him between the tackles, which seems foolish to me.
It’s a big boy’s game & defenders hit hard.
There’s a very good reason Warrick Dunn / Danny Woodhead types are few & far between. And even those dudes missed time with injuries.
It’s a big boy’s game & defenders hit hard.
There’s a very good reason Warrick Dunn / Danny Woodhead types are few & far between. And even those dudes missed time with injuries.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
There's a reason for that
.Baltimore turned to a guy they signed off of the street when Woodhead and Dixon were lost - with Buck Allen already on the roster.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Yeah, I don't see his usage rate changing if Freeman goes down. To me he's like Chris Thompson - he has a role, it is pretty clearly defined, and Freeman has a different role that someone else would slot into if Freeman went down. Lindsay's upside is capped and basically independent of Freeman.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
What makes you think they don’t intend to keep using Lindsay on early downs? This weeks usage could prove to be fluky, but it was intentional. He was getting early down looks in the 1st quarter.
That’s an upside that Cohen, for example, never had; he never saw a 50/50 split with Howard. On the other hand, Lindsay could have a lower floor. He still has to beat out Booker for the passing down work. If the early down work does end up being 70+% for Freeman, Lindsay would need the majority of the passing down work to be a safe bet for flex production.
Lindsay looked good between the tackles. At least as good as Freeman. I’m not sure we should write off a 55/45 split moving forward. If Freeman earns a bigger portion of the touches, he’ll get them, obviously. But considering what Lindsay has done since signing with the team, I’m not sure that’s a given.
Where I own Freeman (my only redraft league), I’m worried.
thecardiackid
Footballguy
He unbelievably fell to me last @14 on the ww.
Yeldon and Lat Murray went before. Very happy. And shocked.
Kid has hops. Ignore at your own peril.
Yeldon and Lat Murray went before. Very happy. And shocked.
Kid has hops. Ignore at your own peril.
Todem
Footballguy
You are probably right.....that is why I said "potentially". He is not built like a feature back.Agree with everything but the last part. If Freeman goes down, I could see Lindsay as splitting work with Booker :X that week, maaaaaaaybe splitting 60-40 with booker the next week, and then Denver bringing in another “Thunder” type.
Cant have 2 Lightning’s.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
He wasn’t used like Chris Thompson (or Duke or Cohen or Sproles). He split the passing down work with Booker and the early down work with Freeman.
moleculo
Footballguy
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moleculo
Footballguy
cuts like this make me think he might be more than a one-time, flash in the pan kind of guy. This is a special, physics defying, video-game kind of cut. Me likey!
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
I'm not saying he is literally C Thompson. I'm saying the team has a vision of how to use him, and I don't see them changing that usage pattern based on the health of others. Which is similar in concept to how Thompson is used - but also different in the details.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
The fact that the Broncos have said they want to use Freeman on early downs & that his usage will increase throughout the season.
You should not be. While Lindsey looked good between the tackles, if they continue to pound him like that he won’t last more than a few games. I believe his usage was game flow and change of pace dependent.
5 foot eight guys weighing 185 pounds are not typically used as the hammer between the tackles. When they are, it’s usually short-lived followed by injury.
Plus they have explicitly stated that that is Freeman’s role. You are reading way too much into a one game sample size. Let’s talk after week four and see where things are at with these two running backs.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
ericttspikes
Footballguy
True. Cohen and Richard have produced as well.
Cohen produced week 1 last year 5/66 rush, 8/47 rec. 1 TD 25.3 FFPC points.
Richard produced week 1 2016, 3/84 1 TD, 1/12 rec. 17.5 FFPC points. Had a nice week 16 too.
I'm perfectly fine with Lindsay possibly being better than Cohen and Richard. Just too early to tell. If Lindsay keeps get 50% of the carries he'll clearly have a better opportunity than those other guys to continue to produce.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
For me the real question with Lindsay is how much they'll use him in the passing game going forward. I wouldn't be surprised if we just saw his career high for carries in a game, so most of us are projecting his passing usage as his main value. But he wasn't used that much in the passing game this week.
He did have 53 receptions in a season in college, which is an insane number, but he regressed pretty hardily after that (23 the next year). Tarik Cohen had people excited last year because people saw him as a guy who could have good games where he had 6-8 catches to go along with a handful of carries. Does Lindsay have that kind of receiving ability and are they willing to use it that way?
He did have 53 receptions in a season in college, which is an insane number, but he regressed pretty hardily after that (23 the next year). Tarik Cohen had people excited last year because people saw him as a guy who could have good games where he had 6-8 catches to go along with a handful of carries. Does Lindsay have that kind of receiving ability and are they willing to use it that way?
Concept Coop
Footballguy
Do you have a link, by chance? Did they say that before or after week 1?
Time will tell. I'm not expecting 15 carries a game, for the record. But 8-12 is enough to seriously handicap Freeman's production - and that wouldn't surprise me at all.
If the quote you mentioned above is post week 1, I'll need to reevaluate my stance. But I feel like a 50/50 split in a close came with both guys getting carries throughout should be eye-opening. As we learned with the "Booker is our starter" reports, it's one thing to make claims and another to follow through when the games matter. Sunday mattered and they gave half of the carries to Phillip Lindsay.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Boston
Footballguy
I think it is that simple...it is a thunder and lighting scenario and game situations will dictate usage...as long as Booker doesn't rise from the dead both should be fantasy relevant...
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
YPC don't score points for my team, pal.Freeman averaged 4.17 YPC on Sunday.
he scores a TD, he’s got 13.1 points which is RB2-worthy.
Lindsay had 100 YFS with a TD. Also RB2-worthy.
but projections-wise, I’m adjusting Lindsey down a little and Freeman up as the season goes on.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
From what I've seen, which isn't a ton, most of his receiving production was the screen/safety valve variety. There are a few clips of him catching the ball down the field, however. I don't think we're looking at a Duke, Thompson, Kamara, McCaffrey - a guy who can win running routes from the slot. That said, those guys are still pretty rare and I think Lindsay could absolutely be a primary passing down back.
I feel like his preseason td vs the Vikings was from the slot? Maybe I’m misremembering.
Ah just found it, he came out of the backfield not from the slot but it was a very impressive route against what looked to be a Db (#39).
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Don't Noonan
Footballguy
Touchdowns do correct? Freeman had an Oregon record 60 rushing touchdowns in college and he will get 10+ in Denver this year. Add in over 1000 rushing/receiving yards and he will live up to his draft position just fine.
barackdhouse
Footballguy
People loved him in TC and the preseason, and then he blows up game 1. It was a fluky game, I suppose, but it was a close contested game, so hard to say gameflow was a factor. I suppose if the Broncos are blowing someone out, then his role would be reduced. But in a competitive or come from behind game, looks like Lindsay will get touches.
He looked great in game 1. One note, though, the TD catch was uncontested. The linebacker did not cover him, it was a blown assignment. Give Lindsay credit for making the play, and looking good, but it was literally not defended at all.
Also, very few passes to RBs in this game, so that may be a concern going forward. As for FAAB, I picked him up everywhere *last* week, because of all the preseason hype. Got a major discount over picking him up *this* week. And this is why we go to where we think the puck is *going* to be, not where it is.
He looked great in game 1. One note, though, the TD catch was uncontested. The linebacker did not cover him, it was a blown assignment. Give Lindsay credit for making the play, and looking good, but it was literally not defended at all.
Also, very few passes to RBs in this game, so that may be a concern going forward. As for FAAB, I picked him up everywhere *last* week, because of all the preseason hype. Got a major discount over picking him up *this* week. And this is why we go to where we think the puck is *going* to be, not where it is.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Exactly this. Freeman owners should be psyched with his week 1 performance, not panicked. Seattle D isn’t as great as it was but they’ve still got lineman who are very decent against the run. I was impressed with the runs I saw out of Freeman, and expect the ~38% snap count to rise against opponents who aren’t as good against the run.
I also expect to see the occasional 15-25 run burst as we saw a couple times in the preseason.
Freeman will be fine & well worthy of his 4th round/RB2 / FLEX draft pick.
the only really questions I have are with regard to whether Freeman will be used at all in the passing game. I would think he’d have to be so the Broncos avoid being predictable, or in the least run some 2-back sets.
They should really just take Booker out. When’d tbs stadium & put him out of everyone’s misery.
Stuart Ullman
Footballguy
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
What was interesting to me is that Vance gave Lindsay an opening series carry.
Maybe it was to discombobulate SEA D with a guy with very little tape, but it means something that they called his number on the opening drive.
Three runs in that series overall: Freeman had a carry on 2nd & 10 for 12 yards called back by a holding penalty, and a no-gainer up the middle on a 1st & 10. Immediately after, Lindsay took the 2nd & 10 snap at Denver's 35 for a pure running play off the left guard for 4 yards.
Interesting to me for a few reasons:
Maybe it was to discombobulate SEA D with a guy with very little tape, but it means something that they called his number on the opening drive.
Three runs in that series overall: Freeman had a carry on 2nd & 10 for 12 yards called back by a holding penalty, and a no-gainer up the middle on a 1st & 10. Immediately after, Lindsay took the 2nd & 10 snap at Denver's 35 for a pure running play off the left guard for 4 yards.
Interesting to me for a few reasons:
- Not an obvious pass situation, though arguably a 2nd & 10 likely goes either way between run/pass
- The play called was off-tackle run, not a pass
- Booker was not the initial COP back in this situation.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Interesting.
I'm not sure a "primary passing down back" has a ton of value, especially at the FAAB costs a lot of leagues are requiring to get him. If that's what people want James White can be had for almost nothing and he'll catch 50-60 passes on a much better offense.
White only gets 3-4 carries a game, though I'm not sure how much more valuable 6-8 carries per game is than 3-4 especially since both the passes and the targets will come on a worse offense for Lindsay. So it seems like to end up being worth more than a guy like James White or Theo Riddick (Both of whom are worth very little) he needs to either be that kind of receiver you're talking about where he can line up in the slot and catch 80 balls, or he needs to keep getting double digit carries week to week.
How likely are either of those scenarios (genuinely asking as I have not been following Lindsay closely)?
Concept Coop
Footballguy
8/36/0.2 and 3.5/30/0.2 comes out to 12.5 PPG and firmly in the RB2 range. More than Howard, Miller, Coleman and Lynch scored last year. I'm not necessarily projecting that, but I see it as a reasonable path to meaningful production.
But I'll certainly grant your point. He's an awkward projection right now.
I'm not seeing the comparison with Cohen, other than being smaller sized backs. Lindsay runs with way more power and can run between the tackles. Cohen needs space, and simply cant break tackles.
I don't know how you couldn't be worried as a Freeman owner. You drafted him as a near bell cow RB, and he basically went 50/50 with not Booker, but UDFA Lindsay. And there was no underlying reason Lindsay got so much run from the start of the game, other than it was planned. Up until the last drive of the game, here is the breakdown-
Lindsay- 13 for 66
Freeman- 11 for 34
Freeman salvaged his day on the last drive, and even then, Lindsay got the last 2 carries!
I know its only 1 game, but that 1 game told a surprising story. And up until the last drive of the game, Lindsay was out producing him by a lot.
No. I don't think Lindsay will necessarily take over the backfield right now, but if I were a Freeman owner, I would be very concerned.
I don't know how you couldn't be worried as a Freeman owner. You drafted him as a near bell cow RB, and he basically went 50/50 with not Booker, but UDFA Lindsay. And there was no underlying reason Lindsay got so much run from the start of the game, other than it was planned. Up until the last drive of the game, here is the breakdown-
Lindsay- 13 for 66
Freeman- 11 for 34
Freeman salvaged his day on the last drive, and even then, Lindsay got the last 2 carries!
I know its only 1 game, but that 1 game told a surprising story. And up until the last drive of the game, Lindsay was out producing him by a lot.
No. I don't think Lindsay will necessarily take over the backfield right now, but if I were a Freeman owner, I would be very concerned.
