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Insein

Kickoffs are Stupid and Bad

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Yes please.

Player safety, sure makes complete sense.

Kickoffs and on-side kicks used to be exciting but with moving the kick up, the touchback spot up, equalizing the amount of players on each side, and changing the rule to that you can just let the ball bounce or roll into the endzone, it really is a waste of time.  The most exciting kickoff in the history of the game (as per the video) would have been a touchback as soon as it rolled into the endzone under todays rules.

I love the idea of in lieu of a kickoff you get 4th and 10 at your own 30 and can choose to punt or go for it.  Let's get the math guys at it, it might make sense to go for it every time just like the 2 point conversion vs 1 point probability equations.  

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31 minutes ago, billrob said:

Yes please.

Player safety, sure makes complete sense.

Kickoffs and on-side kicks used to be exciting but with moving the kick up, the touchback spot up, equalizing the amount of players on each side, and changing the rule to that you can just let the ball bounce or roll into the endzone, it really is a waste of time.  The most exciting kickoff in the history of the game (as per the video) would have been a touchback as soon as it rolled into the endzone under todays rules.

I love the idea of in lieu of a kickoff you get 4th and 10 at your own 30 and can choose to punt or go for it.  Let's get the math guys at it, it might make sense to go for it every time just like the 2 point conversion vs 1 point probability equations.  

And the difference between a kick return and a punt return is?

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1 hour ago, Insein said:

Probably been posted before or at least something similar to it, but this Chart Party Video breaks down the complete pointlessness of the kickoff. It really should be removed and the onside kick with it.

Chart Party: Kickoffs are Stupid and Bad

Totally disagree, what we really need to do is move the kick back.

Few things in football more exciting than some 4.3 sprinters and a kickoff return.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu2ShEZhGfg

Travis Williams a 9.3 sprinter out of ASU averaged over 40 yards a return for one season as a Ram (was a Packer).  Knowing he was about to return a kickoff.  exciting, just like Tyreek Hill on a punt return today.

Travis Williams (running back)

Travis Williams (January 14, 1946 – February 17, 1991) was an American football player for the Green Bay Packers. Williams attended Harry Ells High School, Contra Costa College and Arizona State University, before being selected in the 1967 NFL Draft at the insistence of Packers' coach Vince Lombardi. He returned four kickoffs for touchdowns in his rookie season in 1967, setting an NFL record. Among the returns were two in one quarter against the Cleveland Browns to set another league record. He also set the record for single-season kickoff return average with 41.06 yards, while playing four seasons with the Packers and two with the Los Angeles Rams, before a knee injury ended his career prematurely in the 1972 season.

How about this guy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2-q0dJlYIc

Now take away all we saw above in both videos, that is a good thing?

 

 

 

Edited by ZenoRazon
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18 minutes ago, Kwai Chang Caine said:

What happens though if a team needs the strategy of using an onside kick to get possession back quickly?

quick best of three tiddlywinks tourney

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1 hour ago, Heatman said:

And the difference between a kick return and a punt return is?

Kick return has guys lined up 20 yards apart sprinting down field then turning around to ram into each other at full speed. Punt return has everyone at scrimmage like a normal play.

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1 hour ago, ZenoRazon said:

Totally disagree, what we really need to do is move the kick back.

Few things in football more exciting than some 4.3 sprinters and a kickoff return.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pu2ShEZhGfg

Travis Williams a 9.3 sprinter out of ASU averaged over 40 yards a return for one season as a Ram (was a Packer).  Knowing he was about to return a kickoff.  exciting, just like Tyreek Hill on a punt return today.

Travis Williams (running back)

Travis Williams (January 14, 1946 – February 17, 1991) was an American football player for the Green Bay Packers. Williams attended Harry Ells High School, Contra Costa College and Arizona State University, before being selected in the 1967 NFL Draft at the insistence of Packers' coach Vince Lombardi. He returned four kickoffs for touchdowns in his rookie season in 1967, setting an NFL record. Among the returns were two in one quarter against the Cleveland Browns to set another league record. He also set the record for single-season kickoff return average with 41.06 yards, while playing four seasons with the Packers and two with the Los Angeles Rams, before a knee injury ended his career prematurely in the 1972 season.

How about this guy?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2-q0dJlYIc

Now take away all we saw above in both videos, that is a good thing?

 

 

 

Can he catch a ball? Cause they can still use that speed in the NFL in other places.

Kickoffs are antiquated. They serve no purpose when more than 95% of the time the ball ends up between the 20-30 and a fraction of a % is a TD. 

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1 hour ago, Kwai Chang Caine said:

What happens though if a team needs the strategy of using an onside kick to get possession back quickly?

They showed the Schiano proposal. Instead of an onside kick, team A gets the ball back at their own 30 with a 4th and 15. They can either choose to go for it or just punt. 

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22 minutes ago, Insein said:

Can he catch a ball? Cause they can still use that speed in the NFL in other places.

Kickoffs are antiquated. They serve no purpose when more than 95% of the time the ball ends up between the 20-30 and a fraction of a % is a TD. 

There are 2 minutes left in the game, a three point game, the Bears need a FG to tie.  The Eagles kickoff.....Tariq Cohen!!!!!!....a 54 yard return.

Are you saying the game is better knowing that can't happen, just take the ball at the 25?

Totally disagree.

Edited by ZenoRazon
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25 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

There are 2 minutes left in the game, a three point game, the Bears need a FG to tie.  The Eagles kickoff.....Tariq Cohen!!!!!!....a 54 yard return.

Are you saying the game is better knowing that can't happen, just take the ball at the 25?

Totally disagree.

It was actually a 38 yard return to the 40. And what if the kicker just kicks it into the end zone like he's supposed to? 25 yard line.

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2 minutes ago, Insein said:

It was actually a 38 yard return to the 40. And what if the kicker just kicks it into the end zone like he's supposed to? 25 yard line.

Just an example.

you don't think 15 yards is massive when it comes to getting in FG range?

Without the kickoff return where is that  drama, that.....they put Tyreek Hill back there and he has to come out with just 8 seconds left in the game?

Hell no you don't take an exciting play out of the game.

Let's watch what happens this weekend when it comes to kickoffs, ok?

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It really changes some end game strategy to eliminate kickoffs.  Whether you support it or not, the removal process has already begun at the lower levels and very well could be working its way up the ranks.  In Ohio, kickoffs have been eliminated from 9th grade football completely.  Kickoffs are optional at the JV level.  Both coaches have to agree to include them if they are going to be part of the game.  

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19 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

Just an example.

you don't think 15 yards is massive when it comes to getting in FG range?

Without the kickoff return where is that  drama, that.....they put Tyreek Hill back there and he has to come out with just 8 seconds left in the game?

Hell no you don't take an exciting play out of the game.

Let's watch what happens this weekend when it comes to kickoffs, ok?

That exciting play ends in a touchback 64% of the time. Another 34% of the time it ends up being short of the 30 yard line. So you want us to keep a sequence in the game (can't even really be called a play) that yields excitement on 2% of the time that it happens? I mean I think hail Mary's have a high conversion rate than that but they aren't in every game (and they are an actual football play).

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4 minutes ago, Insein said:

That exciting play ends in a touchback 64% of the time. Another 34% of the time it ends up being short of the 30 yard line. So you want us to keep a sequence in the game (can't even really be called a play) that yields excitement on 2% of the time that it happens? I mean I think hail Mary's have a high conversion rate than that but they aren't in every game (and they are an actual football play).

Why are you ignoring.....move the kick back so more returns?

Once again......

Let's see what impact the kickoff makes this weekend, ok?  How about that chance of a fumble?

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11 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

Why are you ignoring.....move the kick back so more returns?

Once again......

Let's see what impact the kickoff makes this weekend, ok?  How about that chance of a fumble?

Because that's not what they're doing. They just moved the kick up. They made the touchback to the 25. See the trend. They want the kickoff gone because it is the most dangerous sequence in football. I don't know why they don't just bite the bullet and end it.

I like the 4th and 15 from the 30 idea. After every score, ball goes to the 30 and it's automatic 4th and 15. Choose to punt it or go for it at your leisure. Might have to adjust the yardage as needed (based on the success rate). Either way it makes teams more focused on defense and offense. Depth can be properly allocated instead of using it on special teams where they run kamikaze down the field into their opponent most times just to have a touchback.

Edited by Insein

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14 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

 How about that chance of a fumble?

Highly unlikely (and even when there is one the refs can't see that it was one; Dallas and Philly). That's a side issue though.

Edited by Insein

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Just now, Insein said:

Because that's not what they're doing. They just moved the kick up. They made the touchback to the 25. See the trend. They want the kickoff gone because it is the most dangerous sequence in football. I don't know why they don't just bite the bullet and end it.

I like the 4th and 15 from the 30 idea. After every score, ball goes to the 30 and it's automatic 4th and 15. Choose to punt it or go for it at your leisure. Might not to adjust the yardage as needed (based on the success rate). Either way it makes teams more focused on defense and offense. Depth can be properly allocated instead of using it on special teams where they run kamikaze down the field into their opponent most times just to have a touchback.

You're not getting it.

We are both talking about making a change, you......dump it.   Me......move the kick back so we get more returns....ok?

I know how it is now, not talking about that.

One more time~~~~~~

Watch the games this weekend and lets see what happens.

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2 minutes ago, Insein said:

Highly unlikely (and even when there is one the refs can't see that it was one; Dallas and Philly). That's a side issue though.

You really don't get it.

COULD ....there be a fumble?  

Come on man.

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1 minute ago, ZenoRazon said:

You're not getting it.

We are both talking about making a change, you......dump it.   Me......move the kick back so we get more returns....ok?

I know how it is now, not talking about that.

One more time~~~~~~

Watch the games this weekend and lets see what happens.

I'm sorry if you can't see why you're argument is pointless I can't help you. It's like saying car makers need to just take away airbags. They're not going to do that. 

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8 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

You're not getting it.

We are both talking about making a change, you......dump it.   Me......move the kick back so we get more returns....ok?

I know how it is now, not talking about that.

One more time~~~~~~

Watch the games this weekend and lets see what happens.

4th and 15 from the 30. 98% of the time, the kicking team will punt it. 

Can you not have a TD return on a punt? Can you not fumble a punt return?

Someone’s not getting it, alright, but it ain’t @Insein.

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54 minutes ago, Insein said:

I'm sorry if you can't see why you're argument is pointless I can't help you. It's like saying car makers need to just take away airbags. They're not going to do that. 

  Work with me here, ok?

You are saying kickoffs are pointless and stupid, when that simply isn;t true at all and we will see that tomorrow. 

I know they aren't going to move the kick back...ok?  Just saying that would be better than dumping the kickoff...ok?

Sometime  before Monday we will see a game where a kickoff was a big play, just like we see every weekend.

Taking the ball out to the 25 is as boring as it gets.

Edited by ZenoRazon

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3 minutes ago, Mr. Irrelevant said:

4th and 15 from the 30. 98% of the time, the kicking team will punt it. 

Can you not have a TD return on a punt? Can you not fumble a punt return?

Someone’s not getting it, alright, but it ain’t @Insein.

You aren't getting it guy, totally missing what is being talked about, totally.

Edited by ZenoRazon

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We have four games this weekend, here is my prediction.

We will see a kickoff return make a HUGE impact in some game. Anyone disagree?

Story time....

When Marcus Dupree was in HS he was running back so many KO;s for TD;s the offense asked the coach to take him off that team so they could play more.

On the very first play of his high school career, Dupree returned a kickoff 75 yards for a touchdown. He reportedly ran an amazing time of 4.4 seconds in the 40 yard dash as a 210-pound freshman.

 

Edited by ZenoRazon

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4 hours ago, Insein said:

Probably been posted before or at least something similar to it, but this Chart Party Video breaks down the complete pointlessness of the kickoff. It really should be removed and the onside kick with it.

Chart Party: Kickoffs are Stupid and Bad

I saw the title and that Chart Party video was the first thing I thought of.  

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3 hours ago, Kwai Chang Caine said:

What happens though if a team needs the strategy of using an onside kick to get possession back quickly?

If I recall the video correctly, in lieu of an onside kick, you give the team a 4th and 15 opportunity instead.   And the chances of converting a 4th and 15 are drastically higher than the chances of a successful onside kick.

Edited by SlaX

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3 hours ago, ZenoRazon said:

  Work with me here, ok?

You are saying kickoffs are pointless and stupid, when that simply isn;t true at all and we will see that tomorrow. 

I know they aren't going to move the kick back...ok?  Just saying that would be better than dumping the kickoff...ok?

Sometime  before Monday we will see a game where a kickoff was a big play, just like we see every weekend.

Taking the ball out to the 25 is as boring as it gets.

the NFL will never move kicks back. you're suggestion is a terrible one because it is almost impossible. it is more likely they get rid of it completely. so, if they get rid of the kick off, what else do you like as an alternative?

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Just now, Dr. Dan said:

the NFL will never move kicks back. you're suggestion is a terrible one because it is almost impossible. it is more likely they get rid of it completely. so, if they get rid of the kick off, what else do you like as an alternative?

Almost impossible?????????   You can't be serious.

The fans....sure miss the kickoff.....and BOOM...the kickoff.

There is mystery there, will we see a great run back, a fumble?  Why be boring when ya don't have to be?

With bad weather this time of the year, watch what happens to that kickoff.

There is no alternative, just more ways to ruin a great game.

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6 minutes ago, SaintsInDome2006 said:

It’s a natural part of football, and one of the most exciting parts.

BINGO~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You cannot play football overly concerned with being safe.  Bull riding , boxing. MMA,  people will get hurt, that is part of the sport, football is no different.

They are ruining the game.

If all worried about injury then don't play.

Edited by ZenoRazon

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19 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

Almost impossible?????????   You can't be serious.

The fans....sure miss the kickoff.....and BOOM...the kickoff.

There is mystery there, will we see a great run back, a fumble?  Why be boring when ya don't have to be?

With bad weather this time of the year, watch what happens to that kickoff.

There is no alternative, just more ways to ruin a great game.

yes. if you read between the lines of what they have done the last few years, its almost impossible. 

NFL doesnt care about fans. they care about money. fans will watch regardless; no one is stopping watching because they get rid of kickoffs, get real. They bring back kickoffs and they are likely to have more legal battles over long term player safety/issues, which equals lost money. 

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1 minute ago, Dr. Dan said:

yes. if you read between the lines of what they have done the last few years, its almost impossible. 

NFL doesnt care about fans. they care about money. fans will watch regardless; no one is stopping watching because they get rid of kickoffs, get real. They bring back kickoffs and they are likely to have more legal battles over long term player safety/issues, which equals lost money. 

Did you just say the NFL doesn't care about fans; they care about money?

Think about that, ok?

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Just now, ZenoRazon said:

Did you just say the NFL doesn't care about fans; they care about money?

Think about that, ok?

the fact that I have to explain this means that way too much here is going over your head. 

The NFL doesnt make decisions on anything with the fans as the #1 concern. they make decisions based on money. the fans will watch, the sponsors will pay. they are more likely to lose more money by moving the kickoff back than they lose fans getting rid of it completely. 

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The Chiefs are leading 17 to 16, they just scored with 22 seconds left in the game.

Thee is no ....we need a good run back....all there is....ball on the 25.

 

That totally sucks.

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I think we're hanging on to the idea of the kickoff because it's just always been there. We also remember the kickoff return TDs because they are so rare. But we train our brain to block out the other results. Usually we'll go to the bathroom or get something to eat. We'll check on the other game if there's one on during the kickoff because we know it's a very high probability of nothing happening of note.

This is not an exciting part of football. This is an afterthought of football that very rarely yields something worthy of interest.

Edited by Insein

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1 minute ago, Dr. Dan said:

the fact that I have to explain this means that way too much here is going over your head. 

The NFL doesnt make decisions on anything with the fans as the #1 concern. they make decisions based on money. the fans will watch, the sponsors will pay. they are more likely to lose more money by moving the kickoff back than they lose fans getting rid of it completely. 

Dude, over my head?

Is this guy for real?

Where does all the money really come from guy, who are those sponsers trying to reach, try..............THE FANS.  No fans, so no sponsers, you do understand this, right?

The fans don't matter, hahahahahaha~~~~~~~~~~~~

Over my head, hahahaha~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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6 minutes ago, Dr. Dan said:

the fact that I have to explain this means that way too much here is going over your head. 

The NFL doesnt make decisions on anything with the fans as the #1 concern. they make decisions based on money. the fans will watch, the sponsors will pay. they are more likely to lose more money by moving the kickoff back than they lose fans getting rid of it completely. 

You're wasting your time there.

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3 minutes ago, Insein said:

I think we're hanging on to the idea of the kickoff because it's just always been there. We also remember the kickoff return TDs because they are so rare. But we train our brain to block out the other results. Usually we'll go to the bathroom or get something to eat. We'll check on the other game if there's one on during the kickoff because we know it's a very high probability of nothing happening of note.

This is not an exciting part of football. This is an afterthought of football that very rarely yields something worthy of interest.

If we get rid if the kickoff then when am I supposed to use the can and get something to eat?

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Just now, MAC_32 said:

If we get rid if the kickoff then when am I supposed to use the can and get something to eat?

Some sacrifices have to be made for more exciting football.

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4 minutes ago, Insein said:

I think we're hanging on to the idea if the kickoff because it's just always been there. We also remember the kickoff return TDs because they are so rare. But we train out brain to block out the other results. Usually we'll go to the bathroom or get something to eat. We'll check on the other game if there's one on during the kickoff because we know it's a very high probability of nothing happening of note.

This is not an exciting part of football. This is an afterthought of football that very rarely yields something of worthy interest.

So you go to the head, just the kickoff.

When ya come back the Bears have the ball again, what happened?  Yep....fumble.

Nothing more boring than watching a ref placing the ball at the 25, yep....yawn.

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4 minutes ago, Insein said:

You're wasting your time there.

Don't play that guy,  if he thinks the fans don't matter he doesn't get how it all works.

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I'll just think outside the box and ask - where did the tee come from? It seems like a totally artificial part of the game. Either hold the ball or dropkick it.

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