Insein
Footballguy
I watched most of both games. Don't remember any onside kick and the play by play in the box score seems to verify that. Even you can't remember when it happened.
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Kickoffs are Stupid and Bad (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Insein
- Start date
Insein
Footballguy
I was saying I didn't miss any big return because there was no big return in the 21 Kickoffs from yesterday. None of them made it past the 40. Only 2 made it past the 30. Most were touchbacks. Basically nothing really happened.
Key word there....most.
If you had watched all of both games it would be impossible to miss what I;m talking about. In the replay it was real obvious there was an attempt to hit a guy with the ball, and the kicker did as they showed. While not the classic on side it was an attempt to get the ball back.
A replay of a kicker trying to hit a guy with the ball and you somehow missed it.
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Interseptopus
Footballguy
sounds riveting. we should keep kick offs just for those nerve wracking plays
Look!!!! Squirell!!!!!!
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Then there is always.
All those with 4-8 returns for scores.
1Josh Cribbs82005-20143TM
Leon Washington82006-20144TM
3Mel Gray61986-19974TM
Dante Hall62000-20082TM
Ollie Matson+61952-19664TM...................Olympian
Cordarrelle Patterson62013-20183TM
Gale Sayers+61965-1971chi................HOF RB
Travis Williams61967-19712TM...........world class sptinter
9Michael Bates51993-20036TM.............Olympian
Timmy Brown51959-19683TM........great RB
Percy Harvin52009-20164TM
Devin Hester52006-20164TM
Jacoby Jones52007-20154TM
Terrence McGee52003-2012buf
Justin Miller52005-20123TM
Bobby Mitchell+51958-19682TM........HOF WR
Allen Rossum51998-20096TM
Abe Woodson51958-19662TM
19Ron Brown41984-19912TM..........Olympian
Andre Coleman41994-19983TM
Andre' Davis42002-20094TM
Jacoby Ford42010-2013rai..........World class sprinter
Tony Horne41998-2000ram
Brian Mitchell41990-20033TM
Brad Smith42006-20143TM
Cecil Turner41968-1973ch...........World class sorinter
Tamarick Vanover41995-20022TM
Darrick Vaughn42000-20032TM
Jon Vaughn41991-19943TM
Buddy Young41947-19554TM.........World class sprinter
That list of those with 3-1 a mile long.
We have Olympic sprinters up there, some very exciting athletes, some amazing runs, but dump it.....ha~~~~~~~~~
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Interseptopus
Footballguy
what percentage of all kick returns in the history of the NFL have gone for Tds?
I'd bet dollars to donuts it is less than 0.5%
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Jim Brown had how many carries, what % went for Td's?
Jerry Rice caught how many passes, what % went for td's?
Brown had 12312 carries, and 106 rushing td's.
See how silly that was?
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Insein
Footballguy
Going back to 1920 (98 years), there have been 659 kick return TDs. There aren't accurate stats for how many Kickoffs there were in that amount of time but let's say there are 10 per game combined. That means that there are over 200,000 Kickoffs in that time. So in 2-3% of the times that a kickoff occurred, there was a TD.
The real question would be how many times did the kick return make it past the 30 yard line. That I'd imagine is incredibly low.
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Interseptopus
Footballguy
we arent talking about getting rid of boring running back carries or boring receptions for TDs
we are talking about the most exciting play in the game
but to answer your question:
Jim Brown 4.4% of his carries went for TDs.
Jerry Rice 12.7% of his receptions went for TDs
in 2017 alone, 0.27% of kick returns went for TDs
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659 times we got some real excitement, that;s a bad thing? Then there are all those 40-70 yard returns where ....is he going to score???? How many of those?
You don't dump anything that has thrilled fans a 1000 times.
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What about long unscoring returns?
What about the....will he run it back?
Seen a lot of exciting kickoff returns, you haven't?
Interseptopus
Footballguy
insein has shown that long returns are rare as well.
so we should save the kick return because of the suspense of a 0.27% chance for a td return? you must be a casino's dream...
no, I havent seen a high percentage of exciting kick off returns
the vast majority of kick returns I have seen are unexciting.
If I had to choose to watch a kick return or a 4th and 15 option, I'd take the 4th and 15.
4th down conversion rates are way more successful than kr for TDs AMD long KRs combined. if you dont get that then I cant help you
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Give me a guy like this getting ready to return a kickoff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzTETykr8kQ
And, I have seen tons of great kickoff returns. By TONS of exciting players.
When you know the athletes involved you want to see them returning kicks, because of what they are capable of.
Next week the Chiefs are down by 2 with 29 seconds left in the game, the Pats just scored will be kicking off, enter......Tyreek Hill.
That's excitement.
So he takes the kick 7 yards deep and takes off.............
That beats the hell out of 4th and 15.
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Interseptopus
Footballguy
You do know there has been an OT game won by a KO return, right?
The very first play in Charger history was a 105 yard KO return bu speedy Paul Lowe.
Who ran back the first KO to score on MNF?
So just dump all that?
Google...John Gilliam.
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Interseptopus
Footballguy
I'm sure there has been at least 1 in the NFL at some point. I'm sure there are many many more games won on a drive that included a 4th down conversion
You are comparing a 4th down conversion to a 100 yard ko return, really? REALLY?
I'm sure there has been at least 1 in the NFL at some point. I'm sure there are many many more games won on a drive that included a 4th down conversion
You don't watch any videos do you?
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Interseptopus
Footballguy
Let's review, you seem to have a problem focusing....
the topic of discussion is should a KR be changed to 4th and 15?
You say, there was an overtime game that was decided by a kr for a td. great. my retort was that I'm sure there were many ot games decided by a drive with a 4th down conversion.
you seem to be arguing in a circle, not really addressing the actual debates rather just trying to make krs seem exciting or that they have mattered in games. that's great. but the discussion is should they be removed in favor of something more exciting, more successful historically, and more safe? if you want to discuss that I'd be glad to continue. if you want to keep going off on tangents then I'm done here
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Then go, if you can't figure out a kickoff return is FAR more exciting than a 4th and 15th then you don't know the game so stop wasting my time. ok?
Using only 2017 is a little disingenuous since it comes after multiple rules changes to diminish the kickoff return as a meaningful play.
If we want to fairly assess the excitement level of a traditional return, rather than the current, heavily nerfed version, we'd need to look at older data.
Insein's 659 in 100 years was a better starting point for that line of argument imo.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
I'm fine with that. it was the only data I had available to me. Regardless, 2.5% success rate is not worth it IMO
Interseptopus
Footballguy
He likes to reference Devin Hester, who I would agree was one of, if not the, best kick returner in the history of the game.
1.6% of Hesters returned kick offs went for touchdowns.
Only 8.8% were over 40 yards. You have better odds hitting on a 4 number combination in roulette than Devin Hester returning a kick 40+ yards
And this should be considered the ceiling for this category; most other kick returners are likely performing less than this.
ETA: I wish they'd make a Redzone that only shows kick returns. these 4 games... why watch anything else?!?! so exciting
1.6% of Hesters returned kick offs went for touchdowns.
Only 8.8% were over 40 yards. You have better odds hitting on a 4 number combination in roulette than Devin Hester returning a kick 40+ yards
And this should be considered the ceiling for this category; most other kick returners are likely performing less than this.
ETA: I wish they'd make a Redzone that only shows kick returns. these 4 games... why watch anything else?!?! so exciting
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You want stupid? THIS IS STUPID: proposal to provide a fourth-and-15 alternative option to the onside kick.
The competition committee members believe it could be a fun option for teams. Ok, lets bring some clowns in as well and have them run around on the field while plays are run.
The proposal calls for teams to get the option, a maximum of once per game during the fourth quarter only, of foregoing a kickoff and instead attempting to remain on offense following a score by converting what would essentially be a fourth-and-15 play from its own 35-yard line. They don't deserve the football back for no reason. You have to earn it.
The competition committee members believe it could be a fun option for teams. Ok, lets bring some clowns in as well and have them run around on the field while plays are run.
The proposal calls for teams to get the option, a maximum of once per game during the fourth quarter only, of foregoing a kickoff and instead attempting to remain on offense following a score by converting what would essentially be a fourth-and-15 play from its own 35-yard line. They don't deserve the football back for no reason. You have to earn it.
Insein
Footballguy
I like limiting it to one per game to start. Good offenses would play make it take it against bad defenses otherwise. This at least is a football play to try and extend the game instead of the pointless onsides kick that has effectively been eliminated with the current rules for safety.
Also I feel like 4th and 20 at the 30 would be a better choice. Not as impossible as an onsides kick but still a difficult thing to convert.
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