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Saving the PSF - How can we, as a community, make this place better

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8 minutes ago, sho nuff said:

I dont think anyone showed empathy towards cop killers or terrorists though.

Understanding the situations in the ME and what leads to people being pushed  to radicilization and being taken advantage of isnt the same as empathy for terrorists.
Being empathetic to people who feel mistreated historically by police isnt the same as being empathetic towards cop killers.

And yes...Im guessing multiple people may take exception with that post...its not mob and piling on...I think it was a very questionable post.

It was a bad point.  The specific incident which sticks out was when Obama gave a speech where 12 cops in Dallas were gunned down.  A pretty good speech overall, just one line about social injustice in the legal system was seemingly a shot at violence by police officers.  It was misplaced empathy, IMHO.  It is necessary to understand, but a poor time to state it.  Anyways, this was a bad side track. 

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21 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

I am not saying it is wrong.  It is good to understand and discuss why.  My point was why does the left display some level of empathy towards cop killers and terrorists but can't find it to do so with conservatives.   The level of hatred is what puzzles me. 

I can only speak for myself, and I believe you consider me on “the left.”

BLM are not as a group “cop killers.”  Muslims are not as a group “terrorists.”  
And conservatives are not as a group “Breitbart acolytes.”

I have empathy for all of the groups involved. Not all of their individual members who are actively making choices I find to be toxic to society. 

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1 minute ago, squistion said:

Exactly. After 9/11 some on the left pointed out that the attack was not because "They hate us for our freedom!" but rather blowback as a response to decades of US policies and interference in that region. That is not justifying in any way what happened nor showing empathy to those who did it, but rather is giving some perspective as to why these reprehensible actions happened. 

Understanding one's perspective is empathy. 

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3 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

Understanding one's perspective is empathy. 

It’s half of empathy, for sure. 

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3 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

Understanding one's perspective is empathy. 

Sort of but not exactly. Empathy is the ability to understand and share one's feelings. You don't have to share their feelings to understand where they might have come from. Sorry to nitpick. Hope that makes sense.

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1 minute ago, cap'n grunge said:

Sort of but not exactly. Empathy is the ability to understand and share one's feelings. You don't have to share their feelings to understand where they might have come from. Sorry to nitpick. Hope that makes sense.

To be fair, people on the left label themselves as having empathy a lot when what they really have is at best sympathy and maybe just a rational understanding.  It’s a tough loop when the argument starts. 

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1 minute ago, jon_mx said:

Understanding one's perspective is empathy. 

I don't agree. I understand what their thinking was, but that still in no way justifies them committing a terrorist act, or that in any way I have empathy towards them doing that.

To use an historical example, I understand the Nazi rational behind The Final Solution, that doesn't mean I have an iota of empathy for their actions resulting in the Holocaust. 

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14 minutes ago, squistion said:

Exactly. After 9/11 some on the left pointed out that the attack was not because "They hate us for our freedom!" but rather blowback as a response to decades of US policies and interference in that region. That is not justifying in any way what happened nor showing empathy to those who did it, but rather is giving some perspective as to why these reprehensible actions happened. 

I believe you are correct partially.  I believe their reasons are many, including they hate us for our freedom, as well as our lifestyle and culture. 

Edited by JohnnyU

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6 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:
21 minutes ago, squistion said:

Exactly. After 9/11 some on the left pointed out that the attack was not because "They hate us for our freedom!" but rather blowback as a response to decades of US policies and interference in that region. That is not justifying in any way what happened nor showing empathy to those who did it, but rather is giving some perspective as to why these reprehensible actions happened. 

I believe you are correct partially.  I believe their reasons are many, including they hate us for our freedom, as well as our lifestyle and culture. 

It's mostly religion based if we are being honest.  Their hostility towards the US is not unique....you can go back centuries before the US even existed to see the same behavior towards other groups/countries that didn't share their beliefs.  However, there is no question the US has absolutely thrown gas on the fire with policy choices.

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36 minutes ago, jon_mx said:

The order is reversed.  They throw stuff first

When my daughters were younger they often each offered this explanation for poor behavior against each other. I’m sure I don’t have to tell you what my response was. 

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27 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

I believe you are correct partially.  I believe their reasons are many, including they hate us for our freedom, as well as our lifestyle and culture. 

I believe they hate us because we bomb them silly and take their sides and then betray them while living in a protected society. The freedom, culture, etc are secondary to the other part; we don’t do what we do in the Middle East out of necessity, we’re already living high on the hog.  
 

If a boss cut our salary by 75% to boost earnings, we’d be pissed. If he did it after he already socked away a billion dollars, we would be extra pissed. But we don’t hate him for being a billionaire, it’s for the salary cut.  

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19 minutes ago, timschochet said:

When my daughters were younger they often each offered this explanation for poor behavior against each other. I’m sure I don’t have to tell you what my response was. 

“You can hit her back once and then we agree this is over”?

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4 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

“You can hit her back once and then we agree this is over”?

Not if it is with a brick.

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51 minutes ago, Henry Ford said:

I can only speak for myself, and I believe you consider me on “the left.”

BLM are not as a group “cop killers.”  Muslims are not as a group “terrorists.”  
And conservatives are not as a group “Breitbart acolytes.”

I have empathy for all of the groups involved. Not all of their individual members who are actively making choices I find to be toxic to society. 

BLM defend and protest for cop killers. Muslim ideology fosters terrorism. 

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1 minute ago, tonydead said:

BLM defend and protest for cop killers. Muslim ideology fosters terrorism. 

That is certainly an opinion I have seen from some people. 

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9 hours ago, jon_mx said:

You hit this on page 1 and later you noted how there are two perspectives:

1.  Trump-Haters:  "If only we eliminated a couple trolls"

2.  Non-Trump Haters:  "This place is hostile towards us"

@Cowboysfan8 made this excellent post on page 4:

"Just reading the 1st page of this thread pretty much explains the entire problem with the PSF.

All the Trump despisers that are on here every day blame the Trump supporters for all the problems with the PSF. And their only solution is “ban the trolls”.

Nothings ever going to change in here."

Now there were 10 people who liked that post.  Maybe 10 does not seem like a lot, but in a forum who is 87 percent anti-Trump that represents nearly every non-Trump hater left.  

Now I would probably be identified by group one above as the number 1 "troll" on this forum.  But what do I troll about?  I point out the hostility directed towards posters including myself that is constantly on display in this forum.  That apparently is trolling.

Now my desire has never been to not kill this forum or create a distraction from the usual trump-hating discussions.  My desire is to have a forum which treats all posters in a more excellent manner.   

So we have people like @Cowboysfan8, @rockaction, @Da Guru, @Shula-holic, @Ramblin Wreck

@knowledge dropper, @Widbil83, @HellToupee, and @Don't Noonan who will tell you this place is hostile towards them.  You have the entire FFA who will tell you they don't like the environment here.  Joe has friends that tell him they would not post here. 

So are all these people imagining how terrible this place treats opposing opinions?  You really think banning a few posters like me changes anything? 

All I am is the messenger.  You may be tired of hearing me (and I know you are), but I am not speaking just for myself.  Having all these people man-up and not be a 'woman' is NOT the solution.  Treating people with respect IS the answer.  Having a forum which is good nature and welcoming to all non-hateful viewpoints IS the answer.

So this forum can collectively stay in denial and be gone in a couple of weeks.  Or more people can start to acknowledge the real root of the problem and be more vigilant in weeding it out.  Be more excellent folks.  It is as simple as that.  

Great post Jon, and thanks for tagging me.  Myself and all the other people you mentioned are absolutely treated like second class citizens here for our opinions.  Even worse, we are constantly reported on and banned for the smallest infractions.  Meanwhile we see posters on the other side post things about the President that could be worthy of a secret service call. They may get a slap on the wrist, but they are back here the next week.

The good news is we don’t have to post here if we don’t want to.  Like you mentioned, even Joe said his friends won’t post here because of the hostile environment. I could probably rattle off (most people could I’m sure) close to a dozen posters on this board who are in the same boat, you couldn’t pay them to post in this section of the board.

I have an in-season self ban in place from the PSF and my fantasy teams are absolutely kicking ###.  I come in to get a good healthy laugh at the anti-Trump hysteria of the day and throw hearts and likes to my Trump brethren from time to time, but that’s it for me in this part of the board.  I think a few of you guys should follow suit, especially if your fantasy teams are struggling. Don’t let politics rob you of your fantasy joy, spend your precious free time on that instead. See you guys after the season!

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6 minutes ago, tonydead said:

BLM defend and protest for cop killers. Muslim ideology fosters terrorism. 

Which cop killers did the BLM organization defend?

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9 hours ago, jon_mx said:

Joe has friends that tell him they would not post here. 

Just in terms of the thread title, maybe this is something people should consider. Just help the guy out. He's got his name on it. The @'ing of him to resolve disputes is ridiculous, if only you think of being called in to see two grown men disputing the use of the word 'lying'. It has to be strange. But he feels the need I'm sure and respectfully to mother the board, and yet I'm sure Joe would rather be watching the So. WR4 for Michigan today (just as an example) so he can chart if they make for a good 1st round rookie draft FF selection when their time comes. Lol think of being at work on Saturday and your wife calls you to come home mediate a dispute between your two teenage sons. 

I think part of the problem is that this current age is one in which information and misinformation/disinformation are so deadly serious. Information is power these days and it seems like everyone has a stake in their little corner and maybe they do, but you also have to prioritize people and their lives and know that comes first. If you can't think of your own idiomatic handle's reputation, and if you can't think of the feelings of the person you're responding to, maybe think of Joe.

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Maybe like the NFL gives 3 challenges to each team, each poster can only use the report button 3 times a year. Frankly, that seems like too much even. 

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25 minutes ago, tonydead said:

BLM defend and protest for cop killers. Muslim ideology fosters terrorism. 

Please show objective sourcing as to where BLM defended and protested for cop killers?  That said, BLM is a movement, but not some organization... there will be a range of ideals, ideologies, and behaviors, not all of which may be agreeable.

In terms of Muslim ideology fosters terrorism, how is this more true than Christianity (or any number of religions)? Christianity has been used from everything from waging war, to ethnic cleansing, to any number of ill means and ends.  Heck, the Macabees of Jewish lore (we have an entire holiday to celebrate their efforts) could be construed as terrorists as much as they could be considered warriors. 

That is not to say that there are strong factions that utilize a certain perspective of Muslim thought and ideology to create a fervor that results in terrorism, but to say Muslim idelogy does it is not more or less correct, in historic terms, than to say Christianity fosters terrorism (or a number of other things... religion is fraught with twisted interpretations that lead to evildoing)

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21 minutes ago, Widbil83 said:

Great post Jon, and thanks for tagging me.  Myself and all the other people you mentioned are absolutely treated like second class citizens here for our opinions.  Even worse, we are constantly reported on and banned for the smallest infractions.  Meanwhile we see posters on the other side post things about the President that could be worthy of a secret service call. They may get a slap on the wrist, but they are back here the next week.

The good news is we don’t have to post here if we don’t want to.  Like you mentioned, even Joe said his friends won’t post here because of the hostile environment. I could probably rattle off (most people could I’m sure) close to a dozen posters on this board who are in the same boat, you couldn’t pay them to post in this section of the board.

I have an in-season self ban in place from the PSF and my fantasy teams are absolutely kicking ###.  I come in to get a good healthy laugh at the anti-Trump hysteria of the day and throw hearts and likes to my Trump brethren from time to time, but that’s it for me in this part of the board.  I think a few of you guys should follow suit, especially if your fantasy teams are struggling. Don’t let politics rob you of your fantasy joy, spend your precious free time on that instead. See you guys after the season!

I politely disagree. I'm not a Trump supporter and I'm not a Dem supporter. I am a supporter of facts and my own opinions. I've had long disagreements with many posters in the gun thread. The NK thread. The government shutdown thread. The border wall thread. And the tariffs thread. Most of my opinions were a wait and see stance. Others refuted that because they felt that the facts were enough for them to make an opinion strongly opposing mine. My stance has moved some on each of those issues. Others not so much. 

I was swimming upstream most of the time. I didn't attack the other posters with personal comments. I stated my stance each time. I never received a timeout or a warning. I wasn't looking to curb stomp someone with my posts. I was merely trying to give the opposing viewpoint. I don't feel like a second class citizen. I'm not even sure how that can be felt on an internet message board? But, mostly it's because I'm not a second class citizen. It was posted in the gun thread that gun owners have blood on their hands. I don't believe this, so it doesn't effect me. I don't let other people have the power over my self worth. It speaks to the mental fortitude that many have here that they either need to control others, or be controlled by others due to a few digital words. Move on. Be confident in your own purpose. 

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1 hour ago, sho nuff said:

Understanding the situations in the ME and what leads to people being pushed  to radicilization and being taken advantage of 

Eta: Nevermind, see this is already a dead horse...

Edited by parasaurolophus

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Is there a snowball's chance in hell to get people to agree to use the #1 box on the media bias chart to back up their points?  Meaning, using reasonable, well documented "relatively neutral" sites as sources?  People love to say "oh, you just can't handle an opposing view" nonsense when the opposing view is literally something akin to 2+2=5.  Sources are a significant part of that.  I'm guilty of it.  I dont take anything seriously that comes from fox, breitbart, msnbc, (occasionally I'll click a CNN link), info wars, daily beast, intercept etc.  I see those sorts of sites and I don't even bother to click.  IMO, if you can't find a basis of support in that number 1 box, you're doing it wrong.  Now...flame away :scared: 

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Don’t take anything personally, address anyone personally, go to a personal level, get involved personally, personally oversee anything, have a personally involved discussion, or personally think that anyone is being personal, or for that matter personnel. 

Nothing personal, of course. 

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13 minutes ago, Grace Under Pressure said:

Don’t take anything personally, address anyone personally, go to a personal level, get involved personally, personally oversee anything, have a personally involved discussion, or personally think that anyone is being personal, or for that matter personnel. 

Nothing personal, of course. 

WAS THIS DIRECTED AT ME!?!?

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1 hour ago, Grace Under Pressure said:

Don’t take anything personally, address anyone personally, go to a personal level, get involved personally, personally oversee anything, have a personally involved discussion, or personally think that anyone is being personal, or for that matter personnel. 

Nothing personal, of course. 

:lol:

This place is getting stranger every day and it started off as a sub-sub-forum of a fantasy football chat room which is like a 9.75/10 on the weird scale.

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I appreciate that people are simply asking for support to arguments, but that's where this is headed isn't it?  People say something unsubstantiated, they are asked for more info on why they think that or believe it to be true and crickets...right?  It's either going to be that or people ignoring the attempt to change and trying to shut things down under the guise of "its never going to happen so why bother" or a combo of both.  

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9 minutes ago, The Commish said:

I appreciate that people are simply asking for support to arguments, but that's where this is headed isn't it?  People say something unsubstantiated, they are asked for more info on why they think that or believe it to be true and crickets...right?  It's either going to be that or people ignoring the attempt to change and trying to shut things down under the guise of "its never going to happen so why bother" or a combo of both.  

That's why the tone of this board isn't going to change.  Joe just needs to decide if he's going to tolerate it or not.

Someone posts their opinion of something.  Someone wants a link.  They either don't get the link thinking their opinion of the situation is good enough to post.  Or they post a link and then people criticize the source.  It's a never ending argument with no real positive outcome. 

Instead of asking for links, might be better to ask thought provoking questions determining why someone thinks what they think.  We also know other than a handful of posters that's unlikely to happen.  

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9 minutes ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

That's why the tone of this board isn't going to change.  Joe just needs to decide if he's going to tolerate it or not.

Someone posts their opinion of something.  Someone wants a link.  They either don't get the link thinking their opinion of the situation is good enough to post.  Or they post a link and then people criticize the source.  It's a never ending argument with no real positive outcome. 

Instead of asking for links, might be better to ask thought provoking questions determining why someone thinks what they think.  We also know other than a handful of posters that's unlikely to happen.  

We just had a perfectly fine discussion in the whistleblower thread between a bunch of us and jon showing that it's relatively easy to change the tone...even JohnnyU was part of it.  If it doesn't change it's not because it can't change.  And to be honest, the venn diagram of those who want to see it blow up and those who just post without support has a pretty significant overlap.  And I try to do what you suggest but for some posters it simply doesn't matter...those people I simply ignore and move on now.  That's my plan anyway....working thus far.

Edited by The Commish

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2 minutes ago, The Commish said:

We just had a perfectly fine discussion in the whistleblower thread between a bunch of us and jon showing that it's relatively easy to change the tone...even JohnnyU was part of it.  If it doesn't change it's not because it can't change.  And to be honest, the venn diagram of those who want to see it blow up and those who just post without support has a pretty significant overlap.  And I try to do what you suggest but for some posters it simply doesn't matter...those people I simply ignore and move on now.  That's my plan anyway....working thus far.

Oh I'm sure you'll be fine.  But there's so many guys (on both sides) that are so hell bent on winning and playing gotcha that it's a long shot for the board to adopt overall.  But the link thing and then arguing over what's a valid link/source is a losing battle.

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Just now, Ramblin Wreck said:

Oh I'm sure you'll be fine.  But there's so many guys (on both sides) that are so hell bent on winning and playing gotcha that it's a long shot for the board to adopt overall.  But the link thing and then arguing over what's a valid link/source is a losing battle.

Don't disagree even though it would help immensely.  Thought I'd throw it out there.  Will be interesting to see the quantity who actually want to change things.  You may be right.

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@The Commish How do you suggest handling things in the gun thread? There are people that have a personal connection to gun violence..I expect them to have an emotional response to any pro gun argument. You can't remove that emotion through adult conversation. I've taking my lumps in that thread for posting facts around how the stats break down and the effects each proposed regulation would have or not have. It didn't change the personal attacks. Some which carried over to other threads about completely different topics. 

I genuinely appreciate your input on how to handle these types of conflicts that posters might find themselves in. From both sides.

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35 minutes ago, The Commish said:

We just had a perfectly fine discussion in the whistleblower thread between a bunch of us and jon showing that it's relatively easy to change the tone...even JohnnyU was part of it.  If it doesn't change it's not because it can't change.  And to be honest, the venn diagram of those who want to see it blow up and those who just post without support has a pretty significant overlap.  And I try to do what you suggest but for some posters it simply doesn't matter...those people I simply ignore and move on now.  That's my plan anyway....working thus far.

It is quite easy really.  Just don't poke at people.   If you disagree or think they are wrong, just say so.   There is no need to call them liars or demand sources.  If I see something I don't believe, I Google it myself.  Often times I see different sources which provides more information and can either agree or disagree or add to their characterization.

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6 minutes ago, KCitons said:

@The Commish How do you suggest handling things in the gun thread? There are people that have a personal connection to gun violence..I expect them to have an emotional response to any pro gun argument. You can't remove that emotion through adult conversation. I've taking my lumps in that thread for posting facts around how the stats break down and the effects each proposed regulation would have or not have. It didn't change the personal attacks. Some which carried over to other threads about completely different topics. 

I genuinely appreciate your input on how to handle these types of conflicts that posters might find themselves in. From both sides.

That thing is a trainwreck...I don't see any good coming of it primarily because of the composition of the participants.  With a few exceptions there are a lot of the problem posters (as I see them) and I haven't checked in to that thread and seen an honest discussion in months...though I don't go in there all that often.  When I do it's literally the same exact things being said.  All that can be done is focus on the potential solutions and ignore the people who have no interest in that discussion...that's the best I've got :shrug: 

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6 minutes ago, The Commish said:

That thing is a trainwreck...I don't see any good coming of it primarily because of the composition of the participants.  With a few exceptions there are a lot of the problem posters (as I see them) and I haven't checked in to that thread and seen an honest discussion in months...though I don't go in there all that often.  When I do it's literally the same exact things being said.  All that can be done is focus on the potential solutions and ignore the people who have no interest in that discussion...that's the best I've got :shrug: 

Thanks. I know you haven't been posting in that thread for some time. From the beginning I've tried to suggest solutions. But, inevitably, there would be another mass shooting and the traffic would increase 10 fold. Bringing with it posters that haven't read the suggestions or just want a target to vent at. 

It's a no win situation. Which is why I've reduced my posting there over the last month or so. 

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Thanks for the posts here. There's been some good stuff.

I'm committed this weekend but will look more next week. Doing something fun - I'm in Nashville officiating a friend's wedding tomorrow. I little nervous though. 

Still pretty bummed about PSF but I appreciate those that have made an effort to talk about it. 

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4 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks for the posts here. There's been some good stuff.

I'm committed this weekend but will look more next week. Doing something fun - I'm in Nashville officiating a friend's wedding tomorrow. I little nervous though. 

Still pretty bummed about PSF but I appreciate those that have made an effort to talk about it. 

Enjoy Nashville and the wedding...no worries, you got this Joe.

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9 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks for the posts here. There's been some good stuff.

I'm committed this weekend but will look more next week. Doing something fun - I'm in Nashville officiating a friend's wedding tomorrow. I little nervous though. 

Still pretty bummed about PSF but I appreciate those that have made an effort to talk about it. 

From a fellow wedding officiant good luck!

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15 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks for the posts here. There's been some good stuff.

I'm committed this weekend but will look more next week. Doing something fun - I'm in Nashville officiating a friend's wedding tomorrow. I little nervous though. 

Still pretty bummed about PSF but I appreciate those that have made an effort to talk about it. 

Jokes at the groom’s expense and wrap with some anecdotes about love and you are all good! Good luck.

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22 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks for the posts here. There's been some good stuff.

I'm committed this weekend but will look more next week. Doing something fun - I'm in Nashville officiating a friend's wedding tomorrow. I little nervous though. 

Still pretty bummed about PSF but I appreciate those that have made an effort to talk about it. 

Enjoy the wedding.  You have a great business here, but tough decision does the PSF fit your business model.  I love your football content, but the PSF not so much.

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20 minutes ago, Gopher State said:

Enjoy the wedding.  You have a great business here, but tough decision does the PSF fit your business model.  I love your football content, but the PSF not so much.

Wouldn’t it make sense to use the site and not participate in the PSF?

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1 minute ago, The General said:

Wouldn’t it make sense to use the site and not participate in the PSF?

Well the PSF represents football guys, the content in the PSF is basically approved/monitored by FBG’S, if you owned FBG’S would you approve of the comments being made in the PSF?  I mean FBG’S is a site about football, not snarky political comments, how  much money is made on the PSF vs football?   I don’t think their making money on the PSF, but maybe charging a fee to post on the PSF would be an option.  Would it make sence to charge for posting on the PSF, due to the extra costs to monitor and control it?

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I think most opinions have been noted and some fixes have been mentioned. I think we need to form a list of rules and I hope that Joe will not make any decision on the future of the PSF until December 31st. If we haven't shown marked improvement by then, well...do what you will.

Post a rule suggestion:

 

Monitor your own.  - If someone on "your side" of the argument posts something that crosses the line and is not helping the discussion, point it out to them. Being a "board cop" is more effective if it is coming from someone of the same opinion.

Edited by jamny
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2 minutes ago, Gopher State said:

Well the PSF represents football guys, the content in the PSF is basically approved/monitored by FBG’S, if you owned FBG’S would you approve of the comments being made in the PSF?  I mean FBG’S is a site about football, not snarky political comments, how  much money is made on the PSF vs football?   I don’t think their making money on the PSF, but maybe charging a fee to post on the PSF would be an option.  Would it make sence to charge for posting on the PSF, due to the extra costs to monitor and control it?

I was reacting to your original post where you said you like the site but not the PSF so it would make sense to not use it and just ignore it.

Those are all good questions. I don’t really know about the business side of the forum I would think it’s not generating much money though. It is an added benefit and traffic but yeah the moderation has to be a PITA. I only really participate lightly in another forum, it’s more nuts and bolts sports stuff and they heavily moderate it, just delete posts that aren’t on topic. Kind of boring. This place does a great job curating.

I’d wish people wouldn’t report stuff but then it turns messy. Personally I’d probably ban people for a month or so that I was tired of dealing with. Not perfect but gets takes them out of commission. I definitely wouldn’t want to deal with this. The mods are saints in my book.

We’ll see what comes of this. Real shame if it goes away. Seems crazy that it couldn’t just go on as is with some bannings but as you mentioned it’s a pain for them to deal with and if I understand Joe he feels like the problem is more that it’s just a depressing display of humanity in here. Ouch.

Anyways hope it makes the cut. Only can talk about so many new diets and TV shows in the main forum. 

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5 minutes ago, Ghost Rider said:

Maybe I am out of the loop, but how exactly do you officiate a wedding?  

 

All judgement calls go to the home team. 

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5 minutes ago, jamny said:

I think most opinions have been noted and some fixes have been mentioned. I think we need to form a list of rules and I hope that Joe will not make any decision on the future of the PSF until December 31st. If we haven't shown marked improvement by then, well...do what you will.

Post a rule suggestion:

 

Monitor your own.  - If someone on "your side" of the argument posts something that crosses the line and is not helping the discussion, point it out to them. Being a "board cop" is more effective if it is coming from someone of the same opinion.

If people think I’m being a #### they are welcome to call me out.

Maybe I’ll agree if I don’t I’ll respond to what they are saying with non jerk answer.

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