What has he done or failed to do in his career that leads you to think he lacks football mentality?
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Could LeBron James Have Been An NFL TE? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
And Peyton Manning, Brees, Brady, etc never flop to try and get calls from the officials. It never happens in football.
I wouldn't expect a football player to say anything different. Just being asked if an NBA guy could play in the NFL they are going to be defensive about it. Its human nature. Its their livelihood and being put on the spot they will for sure downplay the thought of it.
I agree that you take LeBron today and have him start playing in the NFL he likely wouldn't be a hall of famer. But I do believe if he wanted to play in the NFL while in his prime and trained for it he would excel at it.
I never said they don't take punishment, but saying James couldn't take punishment because he flops for calls in the NBA is a terrible argument. Most players in every sport flop for calls. It doesn't mean they cannot be physical when needed.
It’s very reasonable to question anyone’s toughness in regards to football. There are players who succeeded at a high level at lower levels who weren’t tough on an NFL level. Vernon Gholston had size, all world athleticism and statistical success at a high end D1 program.
Lebron has weak flops in the NBA. Could mean nothing in comparison to willing Cleveland to winning a championship or it could mean he’s had enough after a few hits in the open field.
Lebron has weak flops in the NBA. Could mean nothing in comparison to willing Cleveland to winning a championship or it could mean he’s had enough after a few hits in the open field.
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I dunno. I might expect him to say something different. Not a lot of upside for a current pro athlete to be critical of one of the most popular and influential people in the world.
I think he was being honest and as someone with a ton of experience actual playing the game, I tend to believe him.
Charles Barkley was pretty good as basketball.
“I played football one day,” Barkley begins, “then I realized y’all were really hitting out here.”
https://youtu.be/WV5dGxJCrMY
“I played football one day,” Barkley begins, “then I realized y’all were really hitting out here.”
https://youtu.be/WV5dGxJCrMY
rockaction
Footballguy
It's certainly not for everybody. I personally can't fathom the amount of abuse and pain that football players are in constantly. It must be a grind like no other.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
The longevity part is a lot less true of running QBs, though.
This seems kind of like saying that because MJD was really short and became a great running back, John Stockton could make a similar transition.
There are an endless supply of big fast athletic guys that can't cut it in the NBA. Gates and Graham are 2 out of 1000. There's nothing necessarily better for football about the 100 big men in the NBA than the 10,000 big men quality athletes that don't make it in basketball. The 100 in the NBA are in the NBA because they are more skilled at basketball, not because they're necessarily far superior athletes.
LeBron James may be the greatest athlete in the world but he is not the most athletic athlete in the world. He's great because he has awesome athleticism combined with awesome basketball skill. I don't think he's much more likely to translate into a great NFL player than any of the combine warriors we see every year that are insane athletes but don't have the required football skills to make it in the NFL. Maybe LeBron could learn those skills, but it's purely a guess like it is with any of those guys.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I mean, this is a sign that he can take advantage of the rules to get penalty calls. Some of the greatest QBs collapse like jenga when a DL breathes on them tryna get a cheap 15.
also, have you met kickers? There is nothing as breathtaking as a slow motion collapse by a kicker who’s been untouched by human hands.
Similarly, some of the NBA’s best have been floppers. Reggie Miller, Bill Lambier, Paul Pearce, Chris Paul, Robert Horry, Gasol, Ainge - I could go on and on. Everyone in the NBA flops from time to time. Sometimes it’s for a legit foul that the refs miss, so they exaggerate the aftermath. Other times it’s a blatant “omg he got shot right there on the court!” reaction to literally nothing.
It’s the rules that award penalties for petty patty cake fouls to blame here, not anything specific about James.
Cant hate the player on this one. Ya gotta hate the game.
edited to add. @Iceman03- The 2nd flop by ‘bron in that video is just hilarious. The acting like he was seeing stars from a phantom hit. Magnificent. That’s some Oscar winning stuff right there.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Exactly. Manning used to go down like a sack of potatoes when a defenders pinky finger glanced his helmet incidentally.
Any time someone put a hand anywhere near his face mask he’d exaggerate his head twisting to get a call.
and often it worked.
ZWK
Footballguy
For me, the more interesting version of this question is: what draft pick would you use on LeBron? He's a prospect, and unusually hard to evaluate one at that since he last played football as a HS junior, so it seems more meaningful to compare him to other prospects rather than completed careers.
To flesh it out a little more, imagine that 18-year-old LeBron James decides to focus on football, and instead of entering the NBA draft he gives up basketball forever and goes to Notre Dame on a football scholarship. And in some weird variant on the supplemental draft, we have to commit right then to what draft pick we'll eventually use on him 4ish years later, knowing nothing about his college football career (but knowing everything about his NBA career in the alternate world where he's a basketball star).
I'll say a 3rd round pick. Most likely outcome is that he never makes the team, but there's enough of a chance of him turning into a Harold Carmichael or better that he's worth a mid-round shot.
(In the original poll I voted "Below Average to Average", trying to average over the possible outcomes rather than picking the single most likely one.)
To flesh it out a little more, imagine that 18-year-old LeBron James decides to focus on football, and instead of entering the NBA draft he gives up basketball forever and goes to Notre Dame on a football scholarship. And in some weird variant on the supplemental draft, we have to commit right then to what draft pick we'll eventually use on him 4ish years later, knowing nothing about his college football career (but knowing everything about his NBA career in the alternate world where he's a basketball star).
I'll say a 3rd round pick. Most likely outcome is that he never makes the team, but there's enough of a chance of him turning into a Harold Carmichael or better that he's worth a mid-round shot.
(In the original poll I voted "Below Average to Average", trying to average over the possible outcomes rather than picking the single most likely one.)
EBF
Footballguy
1000 is a random number pulled out of the sky.
I think you're making it more complicated than it needs to be. Gates and Graham made the transition with minimal football experience.
There are a lot of athletes in the NBA who are bigger, stronger, and more athletic than Gates and Graham.
Therefore many of them could probably make a similar transition if they wanted to.
There is no incentive for them because people like Blake Griffin and Serge Ibaka aren't going to quit the NBA to be a soldier on a 53 man football team.
Now, this isn't to say that any one specific NBA player would be a lock, but only that many of them have the necessary athletic traits to do so.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
There are a lot of athletes that aren't in the NBA who are bigger, stronger, and more athletic than Gates and Graham. The vast majority of them are sitting at home right now, not dominating the NFL.
But there are people like Blake Griffin and Serge Ibaka who don't have to quit the NBA to be a soldier on a 53 man football team because they were never good enough at basketball to make it in the NBA. So they have plenty of incentive to go be an NFL TE. But we've only seen two of them successfully do it.
I'm not saying LeBron would have no chance. He'd definitely have a better chance than your average person, even your average good athlete. But there are no shortage of crazy good athletes that aren't playing in the NBA right now that also aren't NFL TEs. I mean why would these guys bother going to wither away in the dev/European leagues for a pittance when they could just have a 50/50 shot of being a superstar TE instead? And that's not even counting the multitude that don't even do that and are sitting at home.
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ZWK
Footballguy
James did play high school football, at WR. He had 42/752/11 receiving as a sophomore and 57/1160/16 as a junior. So this isn't purely about projecting his non-football athletic traits.
And looks back at his HS football career have led to glowing articles like this and this. The latter article includes a quote from his high school's defensive coordinator, former Packers safety Mark Murphy, "I tell people that I rate my top receivers -- coaching, playing or watching -- as James Lofton, Jerry Rice, Steve Largent and LeBron James."
Pushing against this optimism, projecting people's NFL chances based on what they did in HS is very difficult, as evidenced by the mixed track records of 5 star WRs, and knowing what James did in a different sport doesn't do much to reduce his bust risk (though I do think it says something good about his ceiling).
That adds a little more detail on why I said 3rd round pick (a couple posts up).
And looks back at his HS football career have led to glowing articles like this and this. The latter article includes a quote from his high school's defensive coordinator, former Packers safety Mark Murphy, "I tell people that I rate my top receivers -- coaching, playing or watching -- as James Lofton, Jerry Rice, Steve Largent and LeBron James."
Pushing against this optimism, projecting people's NFL chances based on what they did in HS is very difficult, as evidenced by the mixed track records of 5 star WRs, and knowing what James did in a different sport doesn't do much to reduce his bust risk (though I do think it says something good about his ceiling).
That adds a little more detail on why I said 3rd round pick (a couple posts up).
But this debate is not about other athletic people that did or did not make it in basketball or football. It is whether or not James specifically can make it.
Weighing the fact that he at least performed in high school so he does have some degree of competitive football success and that after he was able to focus and make the jump from high school to the NBA at an ELITE level it seems like if he put 100% of his focus into football that he would have a good chance of his skills translating to the NFL much like Gates, Graham and Gonzalez.
The exercise of assigning a draft pick score seems like a good evaluation. Basing it on knowing his NBA success and the skill set he has that would translate to football skills I think many teams would go with at least a 3rd valuation. In this fake exercise, weighing his mental drive, character, and work ethic coupled with his athleticism i think plenty of GM's would spend a 2nd round pick for the potential ceiling. Not all would, but I have no doubt some would. I doubt a first round would he used but maybe an established team with a late pick and a specific need or creative mind could take the chance. Doubtful but I wouldn't say never.
EBF
Footballguy
Source? According to this site, only 1% of American men are 6'4" or taller. The numbers would only drop as you move up, which means there aren't a lot of 6'6"-6'7"+ guys walking around out there, and many of them would be woefully unathletic. The idea that there are lot of hyper-athletic 6'8"-6'9" guys just sitting around on the couch probably doesn't have much basis in reality. If you are that tall and you can run/jump/cut at an elite level, you're probably going to get filtered into basketball. Contrary to what you're saying, a lot of guys who don't make the NBA can make a solid living playing abroad. For example, Euro League salaries can be in the multi-millions. So even if you're a college 'tweener who can't hack it in the NBA, you may have better options than trying to make the NFL.
The successful NFL converts (Peppers, Gonzo, Gates, Graham) are all guys who had enough height and athleticism to play high-level college hoops, but who weren't big or athletic enough to play in a top professional basketball league. If players of that type can do it then there's reason to believe that some of the players in the NBA have similar latent potential. It seems like a weird hill to die on to argue otherwise.
Like I said though, the most athletic tall people on the planet don't have any incentive to play football. If you can be Shaq, there's no reason to be Orlando Pace or Jonathan Ogden. If you can be LeBron, there's no reason to be Jimmy Graham. If you can be Russell Westbrook, there's no reason to be Julio Jones. Therefore the NFL is never going to pull the most athletic tall guys, but rather only the leftovers who weren't big/athletic enough to make it in basketball.
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ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
I think it's interesting that the conversation is always about TE with Lebron. I guess because of his obvious quick-twitch athleticism, speed, and ball skills it makes sense. EDGE is an interesting thing to think about.
But a sleeper position for an athlete like Lebron, if he came up differently in athletics and sculpted his body differently on the same freakishly athletic frame? I think that in an alternate universe where a 6'9" freak athlete like Lebron chose football in college, it isn't out of the question to wonder if he could have ended up as a LT after putting on serious bulk. He already looks about 280 to me and that's very lean, purposefully sculpted muscle for basketball. Slabbed up by eating and lifting with the goal of adding max poundage and heavy, functional muscle? I don't think it's impossible that that relatively lean-looking 280 becomes a downright cornfed-looking 335. If that was the goal.
Those guys don't always start "fat". Remember how Jake Long (I think that's who it was) looked crazy slender and fit after like a year out of the league? Because a lot of the best athletes at OT treat putting on and keeping on 320+ pounds as a full time job in itself. You'd be surprised at the frame a lot of those guys are packing this weight onto and how TE-like they may look if they never treated gaining OL weight as their job. Some of these guys even have absolute chicken legs below the knees although the best usually tend to have thick big bones and calves too, seemingly.
But a sleeper position for an athlete like Lebron, if he came up differently in athletics and sculpted his body differently on the same freakishly athletic frame? I think that in an alternate universe where a 6'9" freak athlete like Lebron chose football in college, it isn't out of the question to wonder if he could have ended up as a LT after putting on serious bulk. He already looks about 280 to me and that's very lean, purposefully sculpted muscle for basketball. Slabbed up by eating and lifting with the goal of adding max poundage and heavy, functional muscle? I don't think it's impossible that that relatively lean-looking 280 becomes a downright cornfed-looking 335. If that was the goal.
Those guys don't always start "fat". Remember how Jake Long (I think that's who it was) looked crazy slender and fit after like a year out of the league? Because a lot of the best athletes at OT treat putting on and keeping on 320+ pounds as a full time job in itself. You'd be surprised at the frame a lot of those guys are packing this weight onto and how TE-like they may look if they never treated gaining OL weight as their job. Some of these guys even have absolute chicken legs below the knees although the best usually tend to have thick big bones and calves too, seemingly.
rockaction
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
Hey, Joe. It's hyperbole. Nobody took that position, and I thought it was just a generalized comment.
eta* It would indeed be a straw man argument if I were to impute people were doing that. Perhaps by the very much standalone nature of the comment it seems that way. I was just making a chortling comment imagining the naysayers.
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elguapo07
Footballguy
https://m.youtube.com/watchv=kqujjb3mxyo
Yeah, his skills would never translate.
Not sure why I can't copy/paste from my kindle.
Yeah, his skills would never translate.
Not sure why I can't copy/paste from my kindle.
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rockaction
Footballguy
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
I saw a video from Daniel Jeremiah recently where he was asking college football coaches/scouts who the best prospect they ever saw was. Two of them said Allen Iverson and one even said an old school college scout actually keeps Iverson’s scouting tape on him just to randomly show people and try to get them to guess who it is.
Tau837
Footballguy
With all due respect, I don't think this is like that at all.
This question is about whether James, probably the #2 NBA player of all time, and, more importantly, arguably the most unique combination of size, speed, and athleticism in NBA history, could play TE in the NFL, meaning against the best football players in the world. That is not at all like a 40 year old amateur athlete could hang with one of the best boxers in the world.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to compare Lebron to a weekend athlete. My point was it's about WAY more than being big enough or fast enough.
But different opinions are what makes the game fun.
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mcintyre1
Footballguy
For me, zero doubt in my mind that LeBron would have been a HoF TE (I'd even go so far as to say WR as well) if that was the life he chose for himself (no way he'd do it today, obviously -- he's 35 years old).
Can't predict injuries -- there's been plenty of NFL players who "could take the punishment" until they couldn't. There isn't some magical trait that prevents you from having your leg destroyed in a freak tackle.
Can't predict injuries -- there's been plenty of NFL players who "could take the punishment" until they couldn't. There isn't some magical trait that prevents you from having your leg destroyed in a freak tackle.
Tau837
Footballguy
There were no real parameters in the OP other than NFL TE.
We must be talking about one of two scenarios. Either he chose football over basketball from the start, i.e., after his junior year of high school, or he chose basketball and decided to try football at some later date, similar to Jordan and baseball (and Deion and baseball, and Bo and football). I realize there was no reason for him to ever consider either scenario given the advantages of being an elite NBA player, as many have articulated in this thread, but that is the hypothetical under discussion, so I will set that aside.
In the first case, I assume:
In the second case, I assume he would have tried to make the transition in his athletic prime. The ESPN article linked earlier was written in 2010, and someone in that article said he would start to play well midway through his first season and would be a top player by season 3. That sounds about right to me, again assuming no major injuries to derail him.
Of course, in both scenarios, it would matter what team he went to, their style of offense, the level of QB play, etc. For example, if he went to New England (Brady) or San Diego (Rivers), he would have been much better off than if he went to the Jets or Dolphins.
Having said all that, I voted Good to Excellent.
We must be talking about one of two scenarios. Either he chose football over basketball from the start, i.e., after his junior year of high school, or he chose basketball and decided to try football at some later date, similar to Jordan and baseball (and Deion and baseball, and Bo and football). I realize there was no reason for him to ever consider either scenario given the advantages of being an elite NBA player, as many have articulated in this thread, but that is the hypothetical under discussion, so I will set that aside.
In the first case, I assume:
- He would have played football as a high school senior.
- He would have gone to an elite program like Ohio State or Notre Dame.
- He would have trained for football instead of basketball. Perhaps that means a bit more bulk, assuming he was slotted as a TE. It also means his football specific skills would have improved, he would know how to block, run TE routes, etc.
- Given his combination of athleticism and skills described throughout this thread, he would have excelled in college football and been a highly drafted TE.
- He would have excelled as an NFL TE. He would have been similar to Gronk and Gates in the challenge of how to cover him and as a red zone threat.
In the second case, I assume he would have tried to make the transition in his athletic prime. The ESPN article linked earlier was written in 2010, and someone in that article said he would start to play well midway through his first season and would be a top player by season 3. That sounds about right to me, again assuming no major injuries to derail him.
Of course, in both scenarios, it would matter what team he went to, their style of offense, the level of QB play, etc. For example, if he went to New England (Brady) or San Diego (Rivers), he would have been much better off than if he went to the Jets or Dolphins.
Having said all that, I voted Good to Excellent.
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JohnnyU
Footballguy
I've seen panels that say they would definitely take Larry Bird over LaBron James.
Thanks @Just Win Baby I assumed most people were thinking if he tried to switch a long time ago. Wouldn't be fair to really talk about it at the end of his career.
You said, "As has been pointed out in the thread, he has been amazingly durable in the NBA, but the NFL is also more punishing on the body." Question, on a scale of 1 (not punishing) to 10 (Most punishing) on the athlete's body, where would you rank NBA forward? Where would you rank NFL TE?
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That is another topic. I think most people would easily have James as a top 2 NBA player ever. Some say #1. I say #2. This isn't about his greatness as an NBA player.
mcintyre1
Footballguy
Not the guy you asked, but I think it's an interesting thing to get a gauge on -- off the cuff, I think I'd have a scale something like this:
NBA Forward/Center (because these days, it's pretty similar): 6?
NFL TE: 8-9? Honestly I'd probably rate just about any NFL position a 10 if it didn't just annihilate the scale. OL/DL would be a definite 10, RB/LB 10. Probably a bit less for WR/TE/CB/S. CTE is just so much worse for longevity than any other sports related injuries (aside from paralysis or something which, again is much more likely in the NFL than anywhere else).
Premier League: 3?
And to clarify, the type of "punishment" received is very different between them. Mostly brain injuries and broken bones with football, while NBA/Premier League are much more games of endurance with occasional freak physical injuries -- so I'm thinking blown out knees, bad arthritis in the legs, etc.
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JohnnyU
Footballguy
Since everyone ignored my Rico Gathers post and I know it was off topic, but just Bird was the better basketball player, especially in clutch situations. He's also the better 3 pt shooter, rebounder, fewer turnovers per game. Bird was a pretty good passer too. If I had to pick one player to start a franchise with it would be Bird. IMO he played better within the confines of a team and made other players better than Labron does. That makes Bird the better all around player. Reggie Miller was immediately backed by Skip Bayless, who tweeted that “Larry Bird was a more valuable all-around player/leader/clutch shooter than LeBron has ever been.”.
However, I would take James over Bird in football
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
Part of the issue is you didn’t really define the question very well. Was the intent to have LBJ switch from the NBA to the Cowboys when that almost happened? At 20 years old? In high school? In middle school?
Similarly, people discussing his weight or conditioning as a basketball player should consider that once he started playing football he would take steps to be a football player in terms of bulking up.
Still a fun hypothetical to bandy about, but without some additional definition to the question it’s a bit hard to decipher. Put me in the camp (still) that if LeBron made the choice to become a football TE in his teens and concentrated on football, he could have been a very good NFL TE. If he switched sports in his mid-20s, I would say his upside probably would have been average NFL TE. Tough to retool for another sport he hadn’t played In 10 years.
I left it open for that reason to encourage more conversation. That was exactly how I intended to do it.
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Most every post on the board doesn't get a comment or emoji. Doesn't mean everyone "ignored" it.
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Tau837
Footballguy
OK, but I didn't say end of his career, I said 2010, in his athletic prime, for my second scenario. But agree the first scenario is more plausible (even though remaining not really plausible at all
).For purposes of this comparison, I will rate NFL TE a 10. I think your category for the NBA forward is a little too genericized. Lebron has clearly taken a lot more punishment than an average NBA forward, for multiple reasons:
- The Shaq effect. Lebron is so much bigger and freakishly athletic than the players guarding him that:
Fouls are called less often on his defenders for play that would be called fouls against others
- His defenders have to foul him harder to attempt to prevent him from finishing through contact.
[*]The huge volume of minutes he has played. As far as I can tell, Karl Malone is the only forward in NBA history to have played more minutes than Lebron, who is already the all-time NBA leader in postseason minutes played.
[*]He has also played his entire career under the pressure of being the guy who must lead/carry his team, not really something that is true of the average NBA forward (or NFL TE).
I would also point out that the extensive travel that comes with being an NBA player takes a physical toll on the body, and that isn't a factor in the NFL.
So for Lebron, I'd rank NBA punishment on the body as about a 7 relative to the 10 for NFL TE. But I don't think that really proves anything. Lebron could have gone into the NFL and withstood the punishment as well as Tony Gonzalez, who missed 2 games in 17 seasons. Or like Gates, who missed 20 games in 16 seasons, but also played hurt in a lot of games. Or he could have been like Mark Bavaro, whose promising career was derailed by injuries. There is no way to know or prove anything one way or another.
Thanks. If you think an NBA player like Lebron is a 7 on punishment and an NFL TE is a 10, then that helps me understand why you might think that. Thanks.OK, but I didn't say end of his career, I said 2010, in his athletic prime, for my second scenario. But agree the first scenario is more plausible (even though remaining not really plausible at all
For purposes of this comparison, I will rate NFL TE a 10. I think your category for the NBA forward is a little too genericized. Lebron has clearly taken a lot more punishment than an average NBA forward, for multiple reasons:
- The Shaq effect. Lebron is so much bigger and freakishly athletic than the players guarding him that:
Fouls are called less often on his defenders for play that would be called fouls against others
- His defenders have to foul him harder to attempt to prevent him from finishing through contact.
[*]The huge volume of minutes he has played. As far as I can tell, Karl Malone is the only forward in NBA history to have played more minutes than Lebron, who is already the all-time NBA leader in postseason minutes played.
[*]He has also played his entire career under the pressure of being the guy who must lead/carry his team, not really something that is true of the average NBA forward (or NFL TE).
I would also point out that the extensive travel that comes with being an NBA player takes a physical toll on the body, and that isn't a factor in the NFL.
So for Lebron, I'd rank NBA punishment on the body as about a 7 relative to the 10 for NFL TE. But I don't think that really proves anything. Lebron could have gone into the NFL and withstood the punishment as well as Tony Gonzalez, who missed 2 games in 17 seasons. Or like Gates, who missed 20 games in 16 seasons, but also played hurt in a lot of games. Or he could have been like Mark Bavaro, whose promising career was derailed by injuries. There is no way to know or prove anything one way or another.
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JohnnyU
Footballguy
I thought it was a good comparison. Both basketball players, neither playing football in college, both would be raw at the position. Rico couldn't cut it. Not to say that James wouldn't, but it's hard to make these kind of hypothetical what ifs, but it is fun to do so, I get it.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
