Balco
Footballguy
Just not a good linebacker. It is a cut that will actually make the defense better.
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2016 Green Bay Packers thread (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter sho nuff
- Start date
sho nuff
Footballguy
Do guys who are not good start on contending NFL teams for 9 years?
Look, the guy was not great. Did not live up to being a top 5 pick.
But he was assignment sounds, called the defense, had the trust of the coaches and was well liked by anyone who knew him.
And started for 9 years.
To claim he was never better than his rookie year, or he was just not a good linebacker is complete crap.
The guy was a good, but not great player. Solid, but not spectacular. He is always judged by being a top 5 pick.
But regardless of what pick...how was it not a good investment in a draft pick.
How many other picks even in that first round have lasted as starters for 9 years?
How many other first round picks the Packers have had will be starters for 9 years? Rodgers...thats it...(unless they sign Bulaga...but he has missed more time than Hawk in a shorter career than Hawk ever did).
I think too many people judge him on the expectations of a top 5 pick...ratther than realizing several years in that when he was drafted didn't matter anymore.
Balco
Footballguy
I judge him on his performance, which has been very bad the last several years. He was not good. Not disparaging him as a person, he appears to be well respected. And one has to wonder if that is why TT couldn't pull the trigger and cut him 3 years ago.
pack just cut 2 inside linebackers. And the linebacker play will be improved next year.
pack just cut 2 inside linebackers. And the linebacker play will be improved next year.
Pipes
Footballguy
I'm not judging based on draft status but Hawk was never what I would consider to be a good LB. I feel he was adequate at best. He consistent ranked in the bottom half of MLBs and went almost 2 full seasons without a forced turnover...something unheard of from an every week starter at that position. He was durable, I'll give him that but I won't give him credit for calling the defense which, for the most part wasn't very good over his 9 years here. Guy built up tackle numbers due to the nature of his position and being on a bad defense that was on the field a lot during his tenure. He just didn't make very many impact plays. I'm not saying he's terrible but he wasn't good either. To me he is the very definition of just a guy.
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Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
He shouldn't have started more than 5-6 years. Thus, I don't really put any stock in him being a 9-year starter.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
Hawk was a sound player. Made the tackles that were asked of him to make. He didn't create the fumbles that were "expected" or the pressure on the QB but I don't think he was ever asked to cause pressure either.
He was a solid pick and played well. He was not flashy nor was he a trouble maker. Green Bay and their fans should appreciate that.
He was a solid pick and played well. He was not flashy nor was he a trouble maker. Green Bay and their fans should appreciate that.
Touchdown There
Footballguy
We need a 260 pound animal in the middle. Tired of seeing the Pack run on.
Dark Matter
Footballguy
Hawk was a good Packer. Frustratingly Un-Athletic (compared to other NFL caliber LB's) but he was in ona boatload of tackles and he called the D plays. He'll probably play a couple more years then get into coaching. Packer Fans Wish Him well.
If you were Ted, who would you try to plug in that spot? Can you imagine if CJ Mosely would have fallen just a bit farther? FN Ozzie!
sho nuff
Footballguy
Wee need a true NT...260 lb animal would be greT, til we see another TE running wide open in the middle of the field.
Pipes
Footballguy
Mosely's good but I'm happy with the Ha Ha pick. I think their safety play in 2013 was worse than the inside LB play of 2014 or any year for that matter.
Touchdown There
Footballguy
Wilfork types are harder to come by than MLBs, but that works too.sho nuff said:
KingPrawn
Footballguy
A pretty good look at where the Packers stand regarding their free agents and the salary cap:
http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/dougherty/2015/02/26/could-cobb-become-too-pricey-for-packers/24092457/
http://www.packersnews.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/dougherty/2015/02/26/could-cobb-become-too-pricey-for-packers/24092457/
Could Cobb become too pricey for Packers?Pete Dougherty, Press-Gazette Media 9:22 p.m. EST February 26, 2015
The reports on upcoming free agency are trickling in and suggesting the Green Bay Packers could have a problem re-signing Randall Cobb.
Bill Williamson of ESPN.com says the Oakland Raiders, with salary-cap room galore, are expected to make a run at the 24-year-old receiver who will hit the free agent market in about two weeks. Jason La Canfora of CBSSports.com reported the Packers think that Cobb's market could get "out of hand" and are prepared to move on if that's the case.
Such difficulties would be a surprise and could drastically alter the Packers' plans for March and April, because going into the offseason Cobb appeared to be their highest priority to re-sign. His departure would move receiver to or near the top of the draft needs list. It also would improve the chances the Packers would re-sign right tackle Bryan Bulaga.
But it's not a given Cobb's market will blow up. And regardless, general manager Ted Thompson will have the cap room and cash to re-sign Cobb and Bulaga, several other of his own free agents and a player or two from another team as well. That's if he chooses, though, because Thompson also places a premium on maintaining the team's salary hierarchy and sticking with his assigned value to players when deciding how far to go in negotiations.
Last week the NFLPA projected this year's salary cap to be at least $143 million, so we now know how much cap room Thompson has to work with this offseason. After cutting A.J. Hawk on Wednesday, the Packers have about $32 million in cap room, according to data obtained from sources with access to NFL salary information. According to OverTheCap.com, that puts the Packers at Nos. 7 or 8 for most cap room in the league.
They also have 11 unrestricted free agents and three restricted free agents, plus their 2015 draft class, and any players they might sign from other teams when free agency opens in March. Yes, Thompson is a good bet to dip into free agency this year, at least for a mid- to low-level inside linebacker to compete for a starting job with the player or players he drafts at that position.
Thompson's list of free agents includes four who will command high salaries: Cobb, Bulaga and cornerbacks Davon House and Tramon Williams. It's hard to see the GM re-signing more than three of them, at most, and to estimate how much money he'll have to work with on those deals it's instructive to go through some of his other impending cap costs.
We'll start with the other free agents Thompson is likely to re-sign.
Last year, he retained defensive lineman B.J. Raji for $4 million, and after Raji missed all last season because of a torn biceps, the best guess is the Packers can get him even cheaper on a one-year deal this season. Perhaps for around $2 million.
Defensive lineman Letroy Guion's recent marijuana arrest kills his value on the open market, so he's probably a minimum-salary player now, which means the Packers probably can re-sign him for the seven-year veteran minimum of $870,000. With the veteran's minimum salary benefit, he'd count only $515,000 against the cap, with up to $80,000 in signing bonus allowed as well, though he might not even have the leverage for a bonus.
Same for fullback John Kuhn and defensive back Jarrett Bush, who are eligible for the $870,000 salary and up to $80,000 bonus but would count only $515,000 plus the bonus against the cap.
Backup quarterbacks Scott Tolzien and Matt Flynn will be minimum-salary type players also, though it's unclear whether the Packers will re-sign both. If so, Tolzien ($745,000 plus bonus) and Flynn ($870,000 but with the veteran minimum benefit of $515,000 cap charge plus bonus) combined still will cost less than $1.5 million on this year's cap. And if the Packers sign only one, it will be half that.
Of the Packers' three restricted free agents, offensive lineman Don Barclay and safety Sean Richardson probably will get the low tender, which is projected to be about $1.5 million. That would give the Packers the right to match any deal they sign with another team. It's hard to see receiver Jarrett Boykin getting a tender after the drop-off in his play last season, but the Packers could re-sign him for the fourth-year minimum of $660,000.
So just for the sake of argument, let's assume the Packers re-sign Guion, Kuhn and Bush for minimum deals ($515,000 cap charge) plus both backup quarterbacks at a combined $1.5 million cap charge, and handle the restricted tenders as suggested ($3.66 million combined). That's a combined $6.7 million, lowering their cap room to around $25.3 million.
Their rookie class will cost another $4.5 million, though for the offseason only the top 51 salaries count on the cap, and only the first four picks probably will rank among the top 51 when they sign. So the rookie class will count only about $3 million more.
That lowers the cap room to about $22.3 million for Thompson and his cap manager, team vice president Russ Ball, to re-sign Cobb, Bulaga, Williams and House, and any free agents from other teams.
As for guessing who's back and who's not among those four, I still think the Packers will get something done with Cobb before free agency starts, and they'll retain Bulaga as well. But La Canfora's report on Cobb gives pause.
House and Williams are even tougher predictions. House is the younger of the two (26 in July), and the Packers like him. But I'm not convinced they like him $5 million to $7 million a year, which he just might command on the open market.
Williams probably can be had for less than that – maybe $3.5 million a year or so – though the worry there is he turns 32 next month, and at that age his play could slip dramatically in one offseason. I'm inclined to think he has some Donald Driver in him, which means enough springiness in his legs for another good season or two. But that's not a given.
My guess is Williams is back and House signs a big contract with another team. If both leave, then Casey Hayward becomes an outside cornerback, Micah Hyde the full-time nickel back, and cornerback shoots way up the draft priority list.
Re-signing Cobb and Bulaga will be much more expensive.
With Cobb, the contract to look at is Jordy Nelson's. Last August, Nelson signed a new deal that by NFLPA calculations averages $9.762 million. But that's counting only the new money and four years added to the one year he had left his deal. In reality, Nelson signed a new five-year contract that averages $8.51 million and included an $11.5 million signing bonus and $13.5 million in first-year pay.
Though Nelson is more important to the Packers' offense because of his ability to make plays down field, Cobb has a good chance of topping that deal. In fact, Thompson should be willing to pay Cobb a little more without worry of locker-room fallout.
Nelson opted for the security of a contract extension — you can't blame him for that — rather than risking serious injury by playing out the season. If Cobb surpasses him on the Packers' pay scale because he has more leverage after taking the risk, well, that's the price Nelson paid. He should have no beef.
Cobb probably would be worth re-signing in the range of $9 million a year because he's uncommonly young (24) for a free agent and a big part of the Packers' offense, even if his size (5-10, 192 pounds) leaves him susceptible to injury. If the price gets much higher than that, though, I suspect Thompson would drop out.
But even if he re-signs Cobb in the $9 million range, Thompson could do it without taking that big a bite from the $22.3 million we're projecting he has in cap room. He could structure the deal similar to Nelson's, which pays $16.55 million in '14 and '15 combined, yet counted only $5.925 million on the '14 cap and $4.6 million on the '15 cap.
Bulaga is the best right tackle on the open market, so he'll likely become one of and maybe the highest-paid right tackle in the league. That player for now is Indianapolis' Gosder Cherilus, whose five-year deal averages $7 million a year and included $15.5 million guaranteed. One longtime agent I talked to at the NFL scouting combine last week predicted Bulaga's average will top Cherilus, but that the guarantee will be less because of Bulaga's season-ending injuries (hip, knee) in '12 and '13
With the cap projected to rise from at least $143 million this year to as high as $160 million in 2016, according to a report on ProFootballTalk.com, Thompson could opt for light cap charges this season with Cobb, Bulaga or both, and still have $12 million to $15 million in cap room for his dealings with Williams or House and any free agents he'd pursue at, say, inside linebacker.
The Packers' don't have any other obvious candidates for cap relief now that they've cut Hawk and Brad Jones. If Thompson needs more cap room, he could convert some of the 2015 pay for Aaron Rodgers, Clay Matthews or Julius Peppers into a prorated signing bonus.
But that doesn't appear likely. Thompson and Ball like to pay as they go, and they should have the cap room this year and in the near future to stay on that path.
— pdougher@pressgazettemedia.com and follow him on Twitter @PeteDougherty.
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sho nuff
Footballguy
True...just worried that we are so vulnerable covering the middle...if we had a 260lb bruiser MLB that would not improve.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
That article states the Packers retained Raji. Didn't they let him hit the market, and he found it cool and returned? I guess technically that is retaining a player but kind of misleading.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
When the Packers selected Hawk I very much approved of the pick. I was wrong. While he was a solid citizen and a reliable guy, things not to be taken for granted, far too many of his tackles occurred 5 yards to 9 yards down field, and far too few occurred within 2 yards of the line of scrimmage, or in the offensive backfield. Thanks for the service, and the citizenship, and good luck in your future.
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CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I really hate the idea of Tramon in Seattle, but that seems a real possibility now.
Williams rejects Packers' offer, John Schneider will reportedly make offer.
Williams rejects Packers' offer, John Schneider will reportedly make offer.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Yeah...seemed a reasonable offer by the Packers though.
I guess a chance things could change...but not looking like it.
Try and keep House...but will cost a bit more.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
I don't see anyone in FA that I want really to be honest. I hope they just stand pat.
Touchdown There
Footballguy
Yea, if he's cheap (<$6M/year), and if they don't address NT in the draft, sounds like a good pickup.
Just like Julius Peppers and Guion, Wilfork won't count against the free agent calculations, so that's a Ted-like move.
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Chicago Hooligan
Footballguy
Cobb to Chicago, Harvin to GB for less money would be quite a thing (...that won't happen).
sharptongued1
Footballguy
Yeah, he made those tackles...Eight yards off the line of scrimmage after a guard took him for a ride.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Mario Kart
Footballguy
If Thompson starts losing some of these players that almost got to another Super Bowl with, cue the Thompson haters... me included in that hater crowd.
Draft some other WR's/players and wait three/four years to "almost" be there? C'mon. Who, on the Packers, is he saving this cap money for?
Draft some other WR's/players and wait three/four years to "almost" be there? C'mon. Who, on the Packers, is he saving this cap money for?
sho nuff
Footballguy
Oh...going to claim he is cheap?
He spends up close to the cap every year. Saving a bit for emergency.
Typically keeps the young and upcoming players and pays them quite well.
This seems more like when he let the guards go thinking they were not worth that.
Cold this be another time he put a lower price than the league will put on a guy (in this case, slot receivers)?
Maybe.
Who is he saving for? Don't know. Hopefully Bulaga...but have heard no real progress on him either.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
The real reason to be upset is because he could have locked up Cobb for cheaper last year.
hauser42
Footballguy
This is not a myth, you just have to go back and watch game film. about 85% of Hawks tackles too place around 4-5 yards down field. He made very few plays that were for no gain or negative yardage. He lacked the ability to shoot the gap and get into the backfield on runs and struggled on shedding blockers. I personally feel he got listed on a lot of tackles that he was second guy in and ended up on bottom of the pile.sho nuff said:
Hawk may have started 9 years for the Packers but that doesn't mean he had value, it was that TT just never got him replaced.
I hope there is no chance he comes back to the team unless it is just for special teams and reserve linebacker. I still can't belive he was our dime and nickel backer for so many years when he could not cover TE or RBs. Too many times he gave up big plays due to being in coverage.
hauser42
Footballguy
That was not going to happen his agent wanted him to get this season under his belt after being injured last year. Sure the Packers would have signed him to lesser contract last year but with Cobb being injured his agent knew he wasn't going to get his value on a contract last year.
sho nuff
Footballguy
So your proof that he was making tackles 8 yards off the los is to claim that film shows 85% of his tackles were 4-5 yards downfield?
BTW...what percentage of tackles by ilbs are better?
To claim he didnt have value and still started for a quality NFL team is just ridiculous.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
He had value but let's face it, he wasn't a game changer. He was just a guy. But he made big money so he had to go.
Balco
Footballguy
I'm think Cobbs money could have been better spent elsewhere. Love Cobb as a player, but there were much much bigger priorities on this team.
I wonder if Bulaga priced himself out of Packs market. He will definitely get more than 7 mil a year. What are all your thoughts? I have a tough time wrapping my head around a right tackle making that kind of coin. Add in the Bulaga hasn't exactly been a picture of health and its risky, IMO,
I wonder if Bulaga priced himself out of Packs market. He will definitely get more than 7 mil a year. What are all your thoughts? I have a tough time wrapping my head around a right tackle making that kind of coin. Add in the Bulaga hasn't exactly been a picture of health and its risky, IMO,
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No horse here, but this link provides at least some insight into his success and aggression attacking the line and making plays.sho nuff said:
http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/player-tackles-for-loss/2014/
No elegant way to sort the data, but the best inside backers who also attack the line made in excess of 10% of their tackles behind the LOS. That has at least something to do with having good DT's in front of them.
Typically, they are somewhere in the 5% to 10% range, depending on their individual strengths and schemes.
Hawk was at 1.1%, or 577th out of 582 qualifying NFL players. Whether that was a "couldn't" issue or a "didn't" issue, I don't know. But the idea that he wasn't making the kinds of tackles at the kinds of quantities expected out of NFL ILB's certainly holds at least some water.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Why?flapgreen said:
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Exactly. I've expected them to keep both players all along, and still do now.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
What are these much bigger priorites? They already canned Slocum and Bostick. I guess they could still dump Capers but IMO they have the best roster top-to-bottom in the NFL. I hope they lock Bulaga up. Bulaga is the right tackle but he can be moved to the left side as well. He's very valuable.Balco said:
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Bulaga will likely be the highest paid RT in football this season. I'd like to have him back, but that just doesn't strike me as something I'd expect Ted to do.
sho nuff
Footballguy
I cant think of a bigger priority than protecting Rodgers.
After that, one of the corners. Not seeing a lot of great ILBs out there so that will have to be addressed in the draft.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I think he's in the top 2 or 3 for tackles all-time and first by a long way in assists. That kind of sums up Hawks career - he was always there to assist on a tackle. Lock for the Packers HoF, would love to be in the stadium that day.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
That's true and he's probably not worth it. He's good not great and he's been hurt a lot. He's the 3rd best lineman on the team behind the guards.
No respect... People seem to be forgetting 2013 when Bulaga was out for the year. That was a career year in sacks for Rodgers. He took 15 more sacks in 2013 than 2014, and a LOT more hits/hurries/pressures.
Nobody respects the big guys until they are gone. Bulaga's play this past year, his age, and his first-round pedigree make him worth $7.5M/year. I am also shocked they didn't sign him first. Pay the man. I want a healthy hall of fame QB.
