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2017 Raiders - how's the 2018 draft looking? (1 Viewer)

OMG why is this on the 2nd page? I bought into the the carr hype...I guess its tankville for the LV Raiders ...I never thought this would be the way to the promised land for such a great team. Seems like the raiders are not quite ready for the prime time.  Shame as it seems your individual pieces are pretty good but as a team seem to suffer somehow. I was rooting for you , truly. I'm sure it seems sad when a former Charger fan feels bad for you all..But then again we both lost our teams so....Yeah./

 
32 Counter Pass said:
As far as the team goes, this is an failure from top to bottom. Everyone shares in the blame. Who is playing at, or above their expected level? Even Carr has been very disappointing this year. Sure his stats would look better if the damn WRs could catch the ball, but he has thrown some INTs and very poor passes at times in several lot of games.

This is a lost season.
It is...it really is a failure from top to bottom. Last year was some smoke and mirrors job.

Del Rio can't scheme. Mojo, Jack? No-go, Jack. Time to go, Jack.

The OC and DC don't have a clue. It's pretty much the same problems week after week--an offense steeped in ineptitude and a defense that doesn't know the rules say you CAN be closer than five yards to an eligible receiver.

Carr has regressed mightily. I'm not so sure his brother isn't wearing his uniform on Sundays.

 
Just spit balling here. Bring back Hue as HC/OC and Dennis Allen as DC. He was over his head as HC but he's a pretty darn good DC. I know this could never happen since those bridges have been burned but it's a nice thought.

 
They're living in fantasy land in Oaktown:

“It certainly got away from us, no question, but I think if you go back as we do, study the film and look at the effort and energy being put forth, our guys were ready to play,” Del Rio said.

“Obviously we know that our culture and everything that we do works,” Carr said, “because we’ve seen it work.”

:shock: :no: :eek: :bag: :whistle: :thumbdown: :confused: :toilet: :bs: <_<

 
Wish we could help you out this week.  The Bills lay eggs in arrowhead, plus don't have a D or QB.  Would be crazy if KC, LA and Oakland all were fighting it out for the division.  That's when football is at it's best.

 
Wish we could help you out this week.  The Bills lay eggs in arrowhead, plus don't have a D or QB.  Would be crazy if KC, LA and Oakland all were fighting it out for the division.  That's when football is at it's best.
I like it better when the wins decide the division, not the least amount of losses!  HA!

 
Good first step but I want Downing’s head too.

JDL has some culpability too, but am willing to gove him the tiniest bit of slack if we get a new OC too.

If he can’t perform with a new staff, Black Jack can go too.

 
Good first step but I want Downing’s head too.

JDL has some culpability too, but am willing to gove him the tiniest bit of slack if we get a new OC too.

If he can’t perform with a new staff, Black Jack can go too.
Can't fire a first year OC.  Not fair, and you'll never get good candidates in the future.  You gotta give him more time.  If they flush him with a full regime change so be it, but you can't keep the HC and fire the OC this early.

KNJ was overdue.  Hopefully Pagano has changes ready.

 
Can't fire a first year OC.  Not fair, and you'll never get good candidates in the future.  You gotta give him more time.  If they flush him with a full regime change so be it, but you can't keep the HC and fire the OC this early.

KNJ was overdue.  Hopefully Pagano has changes ready.
Hear what you are saying and continuity for a team is a tangible thing, but no one’s job is safe regardless of length of tenure.

It’s one thing to struggle to find the right approach and not be able to build on what you were given right away. Another thing to regress a team badly and not actively plan and scheme before and in-game to get it right.

Downing is guilty of the latter.

And I think the chance to run this offense full of true promise and ability is enough to counteract any worry about your predecessor’s length of time in the role.

 
This Norton firing is long overdue. Honestly, this should have happened before the bye to give Pagano that extra week to get his defensive changes implemented.

 
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This Norton firing is long overdue. Honestly, this should have happened before the bye to give Pagano that extra week to get his defensive changes implemented.
Shirley they gave him a heads up as to what their plan was if KNJ couldn't get things turned around after the bye. Then have Pagano prepped for the division game

 
Shirley they gave him a heads up as to what their plan was if KNJ couldn't get things turned around after the bye. Then have Pagano prepped for the division game
Don't call me Shirley. :dadjoke:

I'm happy that we finally have a change.  Any change to show that the club does not agree or align with the results to date was long over due and needed. 
I agree with the previous comments that Downing isn't going anywhere, regardless if he should or not.   A team cannot get rid of an OC after 10 games.  If for no other reason, like Hankmoody stated, it would be detrimental to acquiring coaches down the road. 

 
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I disagree that the deterioration from 2016 is due to the defense...by the stats, it's primarily due to the poor play of the offense:

Offensive Ranking 2017 (2016 rankings)

Points: 20th (7th)

Yards: 21st (6th)

1st Downs: 23rd (13th)

Turnovers: 19th (4th)

Passing Yds: 14th (13th)

Net Yds/Att: 14th (13th)

Rushing Att: 32nd (11th)

Rushing Yds: 27th (6th)

Rushing Yds/Att: 13th (10th)

Defensive Ranking 2017 (2016 rankings)

Points: 21st (20th)

Yards: 26th (26th)

1st Downs: 14th (12th)

Turnovers: 32nd (2nd)

Passing Yds: 27th (24th)

Net Yds/Att: 31st (32nd)

Rushing Yds: 17th (23rd)

Rushing Yds/Att: 19th (25th)

While the defense is bad, it is only mildly worse than 2016 EXCEPT for takeaways...key statistic here. There are no play makers on the defense outside of Mack. However, the offensive production has declined in every single category. Interestingly, note the rushing attempts! Yards per attempt is similar, but the use of the running game has dropped dramatically compared to last year's ranking. Now, part of that can be explained by negative game scripts, but still...

I don't care how long an OC is on the job. If that person screws up every single stat line on the offense with the weapons and O-line that the Raiders have, then that person needs to be replaced. No excuses.

 
kaso said:
 A team cannot get rid of an OC after 10 games.  If for no other reason, like Hankmoody stated, it would be detrimental to acquiring coaches down the road. 


Totally get and respect what you and @Hankmoody are saying, there is absolutely truth there and agree that there is an impact from pulling triggers like these.

That said, I'd rather us establish a culture of excellence and winning than a culture of making coaches (on the payroll now or potential future hires) feel good. 

Windows like the ones this team seems to have (or could have) given it's base core of talented players don't come around often.

 
Totally get and respect what you and @Hankmoody are saying, there is absolutely truth there and agree that there is an impact from pulling triggers like these.

That said, I'd rather us establish a culture of excellence and winning than a culture of making coaches (on the payroll now or potential future hires) feel good. 

Windows like the ones this team seems to have (or could have) given it's base core of talented players don't come around often.
The core is just getting built and not as good as we thought.   That D needs a lot of holes filled.   

 
Don't know Pagano's rep but I hope they blitz hell out of everybody. They can't stay within 5 yards of anybody in coverage rushing 3 or 4 so why not take their chances with the blitz? If anything, it would free Mack up a little bit.

 
Don't know Pagano's rep but I hope they blitz hell out of everybody. They can't stay within 5 yards of anybody in coverage rushing 3 or 4 so why not take their chances with the blitz? If anything, it would free Mack up a little bit.
How about mixing in the blitz more period.  Running the same D play after play is stupid. 

 
The core is just getting built and not as good as we thought.   That D needs a lot of holes filled.   
I think the core is sound.

Carr has a long way to prove it, but seems to have the skill and smarts to become a generational player. Mack already is one. 

Cooper needs to go to a head and hands doctor, but he passes the eye test as a WR who can be elite.  These three guys alone can potentially be a triplet anchor for years. Crabs has far outpunched his weight every year with us

Another part of the core, though one that has a shelf life, is a fairly solid O line. Penn, Osemele, and Gabe are pillars, but we need a consistently good RT and/or better depth in rotation.

Our backs have promise but not great - neither can do it alone. Lynch actually is the perfect kind of back to complement Richard/Washington. Problem is we have a 2017 version when we need the 2013 model. Bigger problem is we rarely take him out of the garage like we should.

Our O isn’t a unit that’s building, it’s built to win right now. Execution has been completely off this year.

To your point, D is bad, our secondary is atrocious. Joseph is the only guy of note. While jury’s still out on Obi and Conley, the rest are average at their best and most frequently highly exploitable.

Maybe Mario/Jelly/Vanderdoes become consistent, but that’s still a hole we need to fill up front. We still hava a chasm at LB though Irvin and Navorro could be adequate stopgaps to address in draft/FA.

Hard to be a champion in the NFL these days without a D, but I think our offense can keep up and be competitive point for point.

It’s why this year is such a mystery to me. It’s easy to blame the coaches, I know that even as I call for their heads. There is just something so...off this year. Drops seem more frequent than catches, our line isn’t playing up to ability. 

Why we aren’t shaking things up to get back any kind of rhythm is beyond me - different looks or rotations or schemes. It’s the very definition off insanity to keep doing the same failed things over and over expecting a different outcome.

That’s on the coaches, IMO.

 
DocHolliday said:
Wow.  This season went from disappointing to disaster.   Looks like big changes coming.   
Reading between the lines it seems like this is based on more than just the KNJ firing.... do tell!

 
“(Musgrave's) a very detailed guy,” Downing said. “He likes to simplify and let the guys go execute . . if there was something that wasn’t working itself out through the course of the practice week, we’d eliminate it or not run it on Sunday. I definitely picked up on that.”

Left out of the quote: "I definitely picked up on that and this year I've been replacing it with something else that wasn't working through the course of the practice week."

 
Both.

Sour grapes in that in the NFL, many coaches develop tight relationships with players, some coaches are simply "players coaches" who form that tight personal bond with the players -- Pete Carroll is known as one, for example, and Norton Jr. definitely played that role in Ivrin's life in SEA and in OAK.

Thought provoking in that the Raiders clearly don't have the right locker room culture of being a united team behind the singular effort of getting far through the playoffs. Seem to be in-fighting factions if only about the coaching staff that is symptomatic of a divisive atmosphere.

When a team fires a coach, you do not need to hear from players up in arms against it -- instead, everyone needs to take ownership and their part of making the necessary changes to get on the right side of the W/L tally. It's one thing for Irvin and others to be upset about the firing of a coach they liked. It's another to not accept the fact that changes need to be made, and that winning needs to come before everything.

Instead of pointing fingers at others (like Irvin calling out Raider brass for a bad firing) they need to be pointing fingers at themselves and start playing like a team united around winning, and about making the necessary changes (including stepping up their own play) to achieve that winning culture.

 
Both.

Sour grapes in that in the NFL, many coaches develop tight relationships with players, some coaches are simply "players coaches" who form that tight personal bond with the players -- Pete Carroll is known as one, for example, and Norton Jr. definitely played that role in Ivrin's life in SEA and in OAK.

Thought provoking in that the Raiders clearly don't have the right locker room culture of being a united team behind the singular effort of getting far through the playoffs. Seem to be in-fighting factions if only about the coaching staff that is symptomatic of a divisive atmosphere.

When a team fires a coach, you do not need to hear from players up in arms against it -- instead, everyone needs to take ownership and their part of making the necessary changes to get on the right side of the W/L tally. It's one thing for Irvin and others to be upset about the firing of a coach they liked. It's another to not accept the fact that changes need to be made, and that winning needs to come before everything.

Instead of pointing fingers at others (like Irvin calling out Raider brass for a bad firing) they need to be pointing fingers at themselves and start playing like a team united around winning, and about making the necessary changes (including stepping up their own play) to achieve that winning culture.
Agreed, if they were being put in a position to succeed it would be understandable but i have not seen that at all this year

 
He's lost the team. He's got until the end of the year to rally them and show that they are still behind him or he's gone.

 
He's lost the team. He's got until the end of the year to rally them and show that they are still behind him or he's gone.
Entire team is a wreck and that shows a lack of leadership.  JDR is great when everything is rolling.  He has been exposed and I'm not sure if anyone is really surprised.

 
I don't know about you, but I am so glad that Bo Jackson personally looked into the science behind Alpha King-- using his extensive experience and training in health and medicinal efficacy, his various degrees in pharmacology, physiology, and biology, his years in bio-pharma clinical research, and his many doctorates in medicine and nutritional science. Otherwise, I would have continued to be a low-T, non-lean, poor libido and rock-bottom energy sink with this Frank Thomas-backed award-winning Nugenix crud. 

 

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