ICON211
Footballguy
This statement highlights what a disaster this season has been. We're talking about a guy that was given the biggest contract in the league last offseason.
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2017 Raiders - how's the 2018 draft looking? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Hankmoody
- Start date
I was Carr's biggest fan when he was playing great last season, so I'm not about to pile on when he is down. His poor play is a symptom of poor play calling, no command of Dowling's offense, poor Oline play and possibly playing through injury ( just a hunch, no proof other than what I'm seeing on the field).
It's obvious its time for a coaching change. There's has got to be a young OC out there just licking their chops for the chance to work with Carr, similar to a McVay/Goff situaton.
Defense seems to be playing slightly better since KNJ was sent packing. But that Dline still needs a serious infusion of talent other than mid to late round project rookies. We all know the secondary is awful. Looking forward, Conley, Amerson, Joseph, possibly Luani and throw in Obi and they could have the makings of a promising young secondary if they can ever get on the field.
It's obvious its time for a coaching change. There's has got to be a young OC out there just licking their chops for the chance to work with Carr, similar to a McVay/Goff situaton.
Defense seems to be playing slightly better since KNJ was sent packing. But that Dline still needs a serious infusion of talent other than mid to late round project rookies. We all know the secondary is awful. Looking forward, Conley, Amerson, Joseph, possibly Luani and throw in Obi and they could have the makings of a promising young secondary if they can ever get on the field.
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
Well that seems to be Reggie’s MO. Gave Amerson an unusually big contract, and did the same with Gabe Jackson. The amount of money doled out to those two players was way above the market.
Then Davis extended JDR with a 4 year deal this offseason, so, for better or worse, he isn’t going anywhere.
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32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
I don’t think Carr is the problem either. I am tired of watching Crabtree drop balls. Tired of watching Holton make bone-headed plays and turning the ball over. Tired of watching Lynch being under used.
It sounds lime Dowling is out the door at the end of the season. It will be a well deserved firing. The offense should have been much more ball control to help the defense this year.
On the bright side the defense got an INT this week.
It sounds lime Dowling is out the door at the end of the season. It will be a well deserved firing. The offense should have been much more ball control to help the defense this year.
On the bright side the defense got an INT this week.
Sarlakticacid
Footballguy
Chaka
Footballguy
The talent level may not be what many had hoped after the last three drafts but I personally feel the jury is still out.
Despite that there is unquestionably enough talent to compete far better than they have this season and that falls on the coaches. Reggie's job is to stack the deck (we can debate how well he has done that) but it's on the coaches to maximize that talent and I don't think there is any debating how that has worked out.
Fire JDR.
Clean house
Hire Patricia or McDaniels.
Profit!
Despite that there is unquestionably enough talent to compete far better than they have this season and that falls on the coaches. Reggie's job is to stack the deck (we can debate how well he has done that) but it's on the coaches to maximize that talent and I don't think there is any debating how that has worked out.
Fire JDR.
Clean house
Hire Patricia or McDaniels.
Profit!
ICON211
Footballguy
I agree. I probably think there is less talent here than most, but there is no way the talent that is here has been close to maximized by a combination of poor game planning/bad scheming and head scratching player utilization.
I agree - JDR has to go. He's too busy maintaining his relationship with players so when it comes to pushing them he can't do it. No excuse to be mired in the slump they were in after that Washington game. The first two games they played - completely different team. Never could get them back.
Some of his decisions don't make sense. You have a top ten offensive so you fire the OC and replace him with inexperience. To top it off you have a terrible defense but keep him in place - pathetic. They doubled there sacks in three games once they finally cut the cord with Norton. Again JDR protecting a fellow ex-linebacker.
I didn't believe the Super Bowl hype since the defense - primarily DB's and LB's took a step back, but I did not expect this.
As far as Reggie goes - I have to give him some more time. Every GM misses on a draft pick. Even Sir Bill (NEP). Not addressing the MLB spot and going after some experienced mid-level DB's is a puzzler though. But hey- he got us out of the mess Al left with all those terrible contracts - so I have to give him more time.
I admit it would be a stretch - not even sure if it would be a good thing since he's been gone so long, nor if he's at all interested in coaching again, but this offense looks like a good Gruden offense. Just saying...
Some of his decisions don't make sense. You have a top ten offensive so you fire the OC and replace him with inexperience. To top it off you have a terrible defense but keep him in place - pathetic. They doubled there sacks in three games once they finally cut the cord with Norton. Again JDR protecting a fellow ex-linebacker.
I didn't believe the Super Bowl hype since the defense - primarily DB's and LB's took a step back, but I did not expect this.
As far as Reggie goes - I have to give him some more time. Every GM misses on a draft pick. Even Sir Bill (NEP). Not addressing the MLB spot and going after some experienced mid-level DB's is a puzzler though. But hey- he got us out of the mess Al left with all those terrible contracts - so I have to give him more time.
I admit it would be a stretch - not even sure if it would be a good thing since he's been gone so long, nor if he's at all interested in coaching again, but this offense looks like a good Gruden offense. Just saying...
They just come out flat way too often, especially when they play at home, lack of talent or not, that falls on coaching. Changes better be made this off season.
As for Carr, I still think we have one of the best up and coming QBs in the league. He's not the only one struggling, Mariota and Winston haven't progressed like most thought they would either. It takes time, we knew there would be ups and downs. I have no problem with Carr and Mack as the center pieces to build around for the future. In my opinion, the issue is, they aren't surrounding them with enough talent and both offensive and defensive philosophies are terrible, there is no identity whatsoever to this team.
As for Carr, I still think we have one of the best up and coming QBs in the league. He's not the only one struggling, Mariota and Winston haven't progressed like most thought they would either. It takes time, we knew there would be ups and downs. I have no problem with Carr and Mack as the center pieces to build around for the future. In my opinion, the issue is, they aren't surrounding them with enough talent and both offensive and defensive philosophies are terrible, there is no identity whatsoever to this team.
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
This is a pipe dream. JDR signed a new 4 year contract this offseason: https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/02/10/raiders-reward-coach-jack-del-rio-with-new-4-year-contract/97769304/ He isn't going anywhere. Davis cannot afford to be on the hook for his salary for 3 years.
People are still buying into Gruden returning to the Raiders?
Chaka
Footballguy
Frankly the players just don't look well coached either. I doubt Amari & Crabtree aren't dropping every other pass because of a bad game plan. Coaches need to step in and fix that ####.ICON211 said:
For example Alex Collins entered Baltimore having averaged a fumble something like every 17 touches dating back to his college days (I think it may have been even worse than that but don't want to go back and do the math again). While he clearly looked like the best back in Baltimore he lost two fumbles on his first 25 touches for the Ravens. It's little wonder he was so underutilized. Since then he has zero fumbles lost (I think they credited him with a fumble last week but it was recovered by Baltimore and I am not sure it would have held up under review) in his last 150 touches (longest streak of his college/pro career, by far), and I think that's due to coaching. It's not like Collins didn't know he was doing something wrong long before he ever got to Baltimore.
Bottom line is coaches need to figure out what is wrong with their players, identify the best way to teach them individually (because we don't all learn the same way) and coach them how to fix it. That's not happening under JDR and I wouldn't hold my breath for it to change.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
Just because he's under contract doesn't mean he can't be fired. I agree that that the extension may cause Reggie and the org to be more hesitant to avoid carrying dead money (coaches contracts are guaranteed, I believe) but even GMs are under pressure to have a coaching staff that breeds performance and wins.This is a pipe dream. JDR signed a new 4 year contract this offseason: https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/02/10/raiders-reward-coach-jack-del-rio-with-new-4-year-contract/97769304/ He isn't going anywhere. Davis cannot afford to be on the hook for his salary for 3 years.
People are still buying into Gruden returning to the Raiders?
Gruden returning to the Raiders -- or NFL coaching in general -- is an even further long shot, but I can't name another candidate who would be perfect in specifically turning around Carr and as a result, this offense.
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
I hear you. I can't think of any names that really excite me. But maybe what the Raiders need is an experienced coach as an OC, not some unproven hot name. It appears the Broncos staff is in jeopardy, would it be weird to rehire Musgrave? Dirk Keotter may be a good fit if he gets canned.
I know it would be a tough act letting him go, probably will not happen, but the extension looks like a mistake in hindsight. At the time looked great, but that's why free agents make the big money after a huge year (or big super bowl appearance). JDR just capitalized on his huge 2016 campaign.This is a pipe dream. JDR signed a new 4 year contract this offseason: https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/02/10/raiders-reward-coach-jack-del-rio-with-new-4-year-contract/97769304/ He isn't going anywhere. Davis cannot afford to be on the hook for his salary for 3 years.
People are still buying into Gruden returning to the Raiders?
I did state it would be improbable Gruden came back in my original post. Just making the observation that Carr and the offense fits his coaching style. Wouldn't mind seeing it happen but I agree, the probability of Chuckie2 is highly unlikely.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
I'd love to have Musgrave back as I think he's a good fit for the talent we have but I think it is weird for a team to hire back a guy after letting him walk 7 months ago. But you are spot on in that we need some seasoned experience -- or at least a guy with a solid offensive track record.
I don't follow college ball as closely so don't know what good candidates there are from that pool -- Saban or David Shaw from Stanford? -- but it seems that most NFL teams prefer to hire from the pro ranks rather than from college. Maybe especially so since the Chip Kelly Experience.
Sarlakticacid
Footballguy
Musgrave Fangio Combo!
DocHolliday
Footballguy
JDR is staying due to his contract but a new OC is badly needed. That isn't debatable to me.
There also needs to be aggression injected into this team from top to bottom. This includes Reg. He needs to go after and sign some FA talent. The players need to play with more urgency. That falls on JDR. He needs to quit being the nice guy and motivate this team to play hard every week.
There also needs to be aggression injected into this team from top to bottom. This includes Reg. He needs to go after and sign some FA talent. The players need to play with more urgency. That falls on JDR. He needs to quit being the nice guy and motivate this team to play hard every week.
Cold Dead Hands
Footballguy
Can we forfeit the last games so I don't feel obligated to watch this #### show.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
Yep, that's the consensus here -- the only possible justification I can think of was an aim to keep Lynch fresh both in-game and through the season. Totally misguided approach, especially given that Lynch is the kind of back who does better being fed, and we even saw proof of this in games this year -- and still Downing and JDR sat him. Inexcuseable.
ICON211
Footballguy
Cory James - LB - Raiders
Raiders placed LB Cory James (knee) on injured reserve.
James has been dealing with knee issues most of the season. He hadn't been active since Week 12. James struggled in his first year as a full-time starter, grading near the bottom of PFF's ratings. The Raiders should upgrade on him this offseason.
I don't know. Based on the way this team values linebacker play a downgrade might now be out of the question.
Raiders placed LB Cory James (knee) on injured reserve.
James has been dealing with knee issues most of the season. He hadn't been active since Week 12. James struggled in his first year as a full-time starter, grading near the bottom of PFF's ratings. The Raiders should upgrade on him this offseason.
I don't know. Based on the way this team values linebacker play a downgrade might now be out of the question.
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
I have been saying this since week 3. Logically it makes no sense to "save" Lynch because 1) every game counts the same amount 2) there is no certainty he wouldn't stay healthy latter in the year with more use.
I have mentioned this before and the more I watch the more I am convinced part of Lynch's usage is due to him. He often pulls himself out after a decent gain. Regardless, he was clearly under used and as I documented earlier I think part of the reason may be Dowling's back ground. He cut his teeth as the Lion's QB coach under Linehan. IIRC the Lions finished top 10 in pass attempts every year with no significant production in the run game. Dowling may have become unreasonably infatuated with the pass game from his Lion's experience.
If Hue gets canned he would also be a good fit IMO. But they must get a dynamic RB for the offense to take a step forward.
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
I think you are right. I have been hearing for years that the Raiders finances are among the bottom in the league. If that is the case, they cannot the 3 remaining years of JDR's contract. The only way JDR gets fired is if the team slides to 4 wins next year.
Chaka
Footballguy
I am generally opposed to taking a RB in the first round of the draft, unless the next Zeke is on the board but I think for this team landing an every down chain moving RB may have a bigger impact on improving the defense than drafting a defender and getting a better D coordinator. That's worth a high pick.
They also really need to consider drafting Donald Penn's replacement in the first. He's getting long in the tooth.
They also really need to consider drafting Donald Penn's replacement in the first. He's getting long in the tooth.
Chaka
Footballguy
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
That is a more reasonable expectation. No way that Davis fires JDR after this season. He can't afford it.
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
Interesting -- I've noticed Lynch come out after a big rumbling gain, but I didn't think he was pulling himself out of games in other situations. And coming in for a blow after sprinting for a big 40 yard gain as you carry three defenders with you isn't exactly rare in the NFL. The thing I noticed is that once Lynch comes out for a blow like this, the team/playcalling doesn't go back to him when he's caught his breath.
Also interesting insight on Downing. I was chalking this up to general inexperience in moving from his place of comfort -- QB coach -- to overseeing the entire offense. We need a guy who has proven experience at the NFL level forging a credible offensive threat.
Funny, I looked up Downing's experience to make sure I wasn't missing anything in his background. His Wikipedia page has the following that made me laugh and cry simultaneously:
In 2017, managed to cause the entire Oakland Raiders offense to regress severely. His playbook is so bad that a high school defense would tear it to shreds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Downing
Chaka
Footballguy
Yeah I agree that it made no sense to save Lynch and Lynch may have been partly responsible for his limited usage. HOWEVER, while every game does count equally on paper, let's be real; last weeks counted more. All the water was under the bridge, it was effectively the start of a new season and they had a shot to control their own destiny in the division. If ever there was a time to throw out whatever bizarre philosophy was responsible for Lynch's usage up to that point it was last Sunday in Arrowhead. And he gets seven carries and one reception.
From 10:42 left in the 2nd quarter (a 7 yard carry) he didn't touch the ball again until there was 6:11 left in the 3rd quarter (16 offensive plays without him).
His touches went for -1, 1, 27, 1, 7, 3 (negated by holding), 4, 3, 22. People sometimes forget that 100 rushing days don't often come from 20, five yard carries. To me he was running strong, that 27 yarder was vintage Lynch. They ran three more plays on that drive, all passes then punted. The game was never really in doubt from that point.
Downing is young and I stated above that coaches grow (up to a point then they become John Fox or JDR and that's all they will ever be) so it's probably early to kick Downing to the curb but...depending on his replacement I might not complain if they did.
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32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
I am not advocating they draft a RB in the first--unless he is dynamic. But spending a 1st rd pick isn't mandatory. Kamara, Hunt and Cook are all examples of dynamic RBs taken after rd1. Trying to patchwork the position with FAs and low draft picks hasn't worked.
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32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
I have to chuckle at this post because it is very similiar to my posts earlier in the season. In all cases Lynch was being under utilized, whether it was due to the staff or himself I cannot say for sure. One thing that may be telling is that I never heard Lynch complain about his usage. Strange
As far as Downing being able to grow, I have very little confidence that happens. He still has not changed his approach since the beginning of the season, despite the losses piling up. I think he is wedded to the pass, and now that opposing DCs have tape he has become predictable. He was promoted because it was thought that his relationship with Carr would help Carr progress. That hasn't materialized either. Time to go and let him grow on another team's dime.
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Chaka
Footballguy
Absolutely agree. I don't think there will be a Zeke at an 8-8 draft position that's why I said a "high pick".
ICON211
Footballguy
DocHolliday
Footballguy
One of the most frustrating raider teams I have tried to watch in many years. There is decent talent on O but it seems to struggle.ICON211 said:
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Can't believe you guys are discussing a high pick at RB. This team needs defense in the worst way.
Chaka
Footballguy
Zeke had a huge impact on improving the Dallas defense. Controlling time of possession goes a long way.
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
DocHolliday
Footballguy
I don't want a high pick used for a 3 down RB but I can see a mid-round pick. It doesn't even have to be this draft since Lynch is ok and there are huge needs on D.
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Hankmoody
Footballguy
It depends on who is there. Draft is for talent stocking, you take BPA. FA, trades, and coaching is for solving needs.
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
Let's put a some context to this issue. The Raiders will be picking somewhere around where the Vikes / Saints picked last year. Who would you rather have a player of Cook or Kamara's caliber, or Obi Melifonwu?
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
Some quick observations about the Cowboy game:
I always thought the ball had to extend beyond the pole of the yard sticks to be a first down. I think that was a major blown call.
They finally started using Lynch more. Too little; too late.
The defense prolly played their best game of the year. Where did that come from? Maybe Pagano is making a different.
Very sad state of affairs when you get out coached by Jason Garrett.
Speaking of coaching, the Raiders put the ball on the ground 3 times last night and were very fortunate none resulted in a TO. And WTH is Roberts doing carrying the ball like a loaf of bread in a area full of defenders? It is details like these that get coaches fired.
I always thought the ball had to extend beyond the pole of the yard sticks to be a first down. I think that was a major blown call.
They finally started using Lynch more. Too little; too late.
The defense prolly played their best game of the year. Where did that come from? Maybe Pagano is making a different.
Very sad state of affairs when you get out coached by Jason Garrett.
Speaking of coaching, the Raiders put the ball on the ground 3 times last night and were very fortunate none resulted in a TO. And WTH is Roberts doing carrying the ball like a loaf of bread in a area full of defenders? It is details like these that get coaches fired.
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Hankmoody
Footballguy
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
What a gut punch of a game. Steratore's smirking face will haunt my nightmares until we have a new coaching staff that uses this team's talents effectively. I don't know how many times I can listen to everyone from fans to the bloody announcers on TV comment on how vanilla, predictable, and inexplicably unchanging our offensive game plan is.
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