Anarchy99
Footballguy
The most current info I had was from last night, so it clearly changed (and will change) quickly.
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2018-19 NBA Thread: Magic Johnson leaves Lakers in order to pursue other jobs to be completely terrible at (2 Viewers)
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tommyGunZ
Footballguy
No. I'm saying that a hypothetical LeBron, PG13, and the rest of the Lakers (minus Randle, to be fair) would crush the 2017 LeBron led Cavs.
ETA: Not only do I think they're better right now, but that Laker team moving forward is light years ahead of the presently constituted Cavs. PG13 >>>>> Love, and the next best assets are Lonzo, Ingram, Kuzma, and probably Josh Hart.
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drpill
Footballguy
Not to mention he suggested in his game four postgame presser that he's looking to join a situation with cerebral players who have demonstrated they're ready to compete for a championship. I don't see how the Lakers qualify here, even if they add George.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
And Bobcat, to be fair, that's not necessarily an indictment of the Cavs - they've completely sold out their future to win the last several years. Which was the right move. The Lakers have done the exact opposite. It's only natural that from a "this point forward" standpoint, a young Laker team with only 1 bad asset (Deng) is in a better position based on recent franchise motivations.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
I think if you compare any team to the Warriors on paper, you'll reach the same conclusion that "they can't compete for a championship". The Cavs just competed and finished 2nd overall, with a roster that is worse than what the Lakers + PG13 can offer LeBron in 2018-19. How is that no "competing" for a championship?
Look - the Warriors IMO are the GTOAT. That said, you can't just write off the West for the next 3 years and tell the other 14 teams to fold. That's silly and not the way the world works. Crazy stuff happens in sports. A player get hurt. A suspension changes the dynamic of a series. A rookie or role player out of no where makes the leap and becomes a championship piece.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Flranger and msudaisy posted it yesterday. I believe reported by Forbes. Bovada is still close to that last I checked, around +170.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
All this, plus the fact that despite the narrative, the Lakers absolutely love Lonzo Ball. The number of people writing off a rookie PG who was plauged by injuries but averaged 10-7-7 at age 20 in mind boggling. Lonzo is exactly what LeBron and PG13 need at this point in their careers. He can play make and save them tons of energy on offense, and he can be an elite perimeter defender to complement those two and their elite level D.
People are way, way over their skiis on the anti-Lonzo stuff. You guys are sleeping.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
I just searched Bovada for "LeBron" and nothing showed up. Either it's OTB or the same people who created their search engine as FBG.
+170 is a great price if it's available even if it ends up wrong. -140 is closer to the efficient price because Bookmaker will have higher limits on this prop.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Dude, he missed a third of the season with injuries and he can't shoot. He's got major work to do just to become a non-liability on offense. I'm not saying he can't do it (though history doesn't suggest a high probability of superstardom for him), and that he doesn't have some above average skills, but the stuff he's lacking are serious problems if you're looking to compete night in night out and in the playoffs. He's far from giving LeBron and George what they "need." You're better off selling them on Ingram, Kuzma and Hart - those guys are good fits for LeBron if the Lakers can add another strong 3 point shooter or two.
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Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Yeah that's all great but what Lebron really needs is perimeter players who can drain threes. The cliche 3 and D guys. This is the NBA now, and Lonzo is a liability, especially in the playoffs when the D gets turned up to 11. Same with Ben Simmons. He's a great talent and Lo is a decent talent. Ben would be freakishly dominant in other eras and Lo would be a star. In this era they are liabilities. Rondo was a finals MVP not long ago. He's the poster boy for the past era, an anachronism compared to Curry. Basketball isn't today what it was a decade ago. You have to work at wrapping your head around it. No team with poor shooters play making is going to win a championship in this era. Philly should get all it can for Ben and Fultz and LA should move Lo.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
I understand you totally.
What I initially responded to was a little vague and I presented only one way it could have been interpreted. The post you were replying to wasn't much help either. I do think the Lakers would make other roster changes if they land Lebron, as others are pointing out. But let's get to that point first, although it is fun to speculate multiple moves down the line.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Why would the Pelicans consider trading Davis at all after finally winning a playoff series with him?
Gr00vus
Footballguy
I never get the tendency for people to come up with hypotheticals where the Pelicans are getting rid of Davis.
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
Davis has two years and an option year remaining (which hardly anyone exercises these days). If he went to management and said he will be opting out and there is no way he is sticking around (see Paul George as an example), you don't think they would trade him for all they could get before he walked and they got nothing?
I wouldn't trade him if I were the Pels, but the Celtics have them on speed dial at this point. I am sure there would be no shortage of suitors if he became available. At some point it could be advantageous to take the trade over hoping he sticks around or knowing he won't be back.
drpill
Footballguy
I mean, the Cavs got swept. That's not really competitive. And I don't think LeBron wants to roll the dice and hope for an injury or a suspension. He wants to win.
Obviously I'm biased, but I think if LeBron's primary motive is to dethrone the Warriors and win some more titles before retirement, San Antonio is his best option. There are only two star players in the NBA that I can think of who have won a title, other than LeBron and the Warriors guys -- Kyrie Irving and Kawhi Leonard. Gregg Popovich is a hall of fame coach who has five rings in the last 20 years and knows how to create a winning environment and keep his teams focused. It's hard to say how much of the Spurs roster stays intact to make space for James, but in terms of vets with championship experience you have Ginobili, Parker, Green and Gasol all with multiple titles. I feel like Parker and Ginobili at least would be willing to come back for minimal money to be part of another contending team. They're ancient but they can still contribute some meaningful minutes in big games.
Prior to his injury, the Leonard-led Spurs showed they can play with Golden State. That's what they were built for. They were up 25 in game one in the 2017 playoffs before Kawhi went down. Add James to that team and let Pop work his magic and I think they'd have a better shot than anyone.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
msudaisy26
Footballguy
This, you don't trade Davis unless he demands it, then every team in the league will call you and you pick the young players and assets best.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I think they'd wait until next year then. It's a tough sell for their fans to finally break through and then sell off your best player. I realize they are not legit title contenders but if Boogie comes back healthy or they add another star player they could potentially be the third best team in the West (depending on what LeBron does).
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Lonzo shot 30% from 3 as a 20 year old rookie - it would be a shock if he doesn't significantly improve on that next year. League average is 36%. If he's there with his passing and rebounding, he's absolutely an asset offensively. And again, his defense was outstanding as a rookie 20 year old.Yeah that's all great but what Lebron really needs is perimeter players who can drain threes. The cliche 3 and D guys. This is the NBA now, and Lonzo is a liability, especially in the playoffs when the D gets turned up to 11. Same with Ben Simmons. He's a great talent and Lo is a decent talent. Ben would be freakishly dominant in other eras and Lo would be a star. In this era they are liabilities. Rondo was a finals MVP not long ago. He's the poster boy for the past era, an anachronism compared to Curry. Basketball isn't today what it was a decade ago. You have to work at wrapping your head around it. No team with poor shooters play making is going to win a championship in this era. Philly should get all it can for Ben and Fultz and LA should move Lo.
Kidd shot 27% from 3 as a rookie, and averaged 11-8-5, and he was a year older than Lonzo as a rookie.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Cousins is a free agent. Woj tweeted last week that the Pelicans only want to sign him to a short term prove it deal after his Achilles injury. I am guessing another team would give him way more than that. Cousins also has said he wants to play for a legit contender (and I don't think many people would put the Pelicans in that category). Bottom line, I would say it is more likely than not that Boogie won't be back (which probably won't sit well with Davis).
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Gr00vus
Footballguy
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mr. furley
Footballguy
who's in charge of capturing all the horrible hot takes in a single post so they can be tracked next June?
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
If you're the Lakers, and you have room for a 2nd max guy, forward is your deepest position (assuming PG13, Kuzma, Ingram), and center is an area of need, there is a reasonable argument to be made that a 27 year old Cousins is a better fit than 33 yr old LeBron.
I still prefer LeBron, but positional need and age certainly makes it an interesting thought experiment.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I think you may be a little too optimistic as others are too pessimistic on Ball. I saw Ball in person this year against the Celtics and he was just plain bad and a liability on offense. It could have just been an off night or maybe he was just really young and just starting his career, but he looked totally lost. He would be open on the perimeter and teammates would look right at him and not pass him the ball. He went 1 of 5 from three with a couple of air balls, 3 of 10 on lay ups, threw an alley oop to no one that went out of bounds, and had a no look pass with no one within 10 feet of the ball on either team. In the main, no one wanted to give him the ball, and if he some how got a rebound or a loose ball he tried to go coast to coast or 1 on 3. Certainly he is a wee one and can get a lot better, but that particular night he was laughably bad.
drpill
Footballguy
How about Kawhi, LeBron, and LaMarcus Aldridge? Dejounte Murray is all-NBA defense and can guard multiple positions, and is only getting better. Kyle Anderson has great length and is an underrated defender, a swiss army knife kind of player. Add in Parker, Ginobili, Mills, and whatever veterans you want at that point; free agents tend to flock to super teams to get their shot at a ring.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
That's certainly fair. I will add the context that Boston and Brad Stevens 10 games into your rookie season is probably about as challenging as it gets as a 20 yr old point guard in the regular season. He was admittedly pretty shell shocked at that point.
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
The players you just mentioned could never all be on the same roster. It just couldn't happen based on the Spurs cap situation. If there is a way to get those guys as a big three (and I am skeptical on that), then the other guys on your list aren't going to be there with them.
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Regardless of where LeBron ends up, it seems like the shortage of cash this summer will result in some really good players taking some short deals for little $. Whichever teams get LeBron, PG13, Cousins, etc. may be able to attract some good players to play with them on the cheap.
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
And let's be clear here. I have a hard time thinking of any situation you can drop LeBron into where they'd be a favorite over the Warriors, even with additional realistic adjustments. The Warriors are a ridiculous team. And for this reason, I'm not 100% keen on the LeBron to the Lakers thing. If the Lakers have to strip mine the team to make LeBron happy, I don't think it results in near term championships and I'm pretty sure it'll result in long term sucktitude.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
So Cousins is going to sign with GSW or Houston?
There are only so many legit contenders at this point.
I guess I don’t see Davis demanding a trade with two years (plus an option) left - after making a decent run in the playoffs this past season without Cousins. If he leaves they could sign some other impact free agent. Not every free agent can sign with LA, GSW, Philly or Houston.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
Is there a larger picture of it? I see a middle finger under the 1.
Reminds me of that time the Warriors were up 3-1 in the NBA Finals and then lost 3 straight (first time ever I'm told), including two at oraCLE Arena.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
y'all aint seeing enough Warrior fallibility for my tastes. it's been so long since they've played perfect ball - because they havent had to - that i believe theyre forgetting how. didn't see good flow in any of their playoff series, Klay & Draymond have fallen off significantly, Iggy & Liv were more glue than icing, and the West thing has me thinking there's a significant reason for all these factors. The 2014-5 team beats these guys and so could a team with equal parts mesh & star power
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drpill
Footballguy
This is why I think the Spurs are the only realistic challenger. Kawhi and LeBron would be a game changer defensively, and along with Murray they would give the Warriors' big three nightmares. LMA is either a great third option or a very tradeable asset to get the pieces needed. It wouldn't be an easy road and they wouldn't be favoured, but short of joining the Warriors it's LeBron's best shot.
That said, it's not the most likely scenario, for a bunch of reasons that probably don't have anything to do with actual basketball.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
Can you get a max contract (not super max) at any point? For instance, what if it's the opposite as what you're saying, and one these (super) "stars" signs a 1 year small dollar figure deal just to get with the team they want and then resign long term the next offseason. Yes, risky, but is it possible?
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Even if the Pelicans don't bring Cousins back, they are pretty much already at the salary cap. So they couldn't bring in another free agent without dumping salary (sound familiar? a lot of teams are in this situation).They are already on the books for $100 million, $76 million of it from Davis, Holiday, Hill, and Mirotic. I am not sure who they would move to try to bring in another big name free agent.
As for who is a legit contender, I agree it's not a long list of teams.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
another thing being overlooked is the fact that the Cavs are over the cap AFTER LeBrohan leaves. y'all (Rocket, Spur fans especially) are putting contract garbage together in your sign&trade scenarios for the Kang but there simply aint enough contender-level 1st-rd picks in creation that would be enough for the Cavs to go BACK into penalty tax for a Jamesless team
Anarchy99
Footballguy
In short, it's complicated. But there is some explanation from last year HERE. Players could opt to do something like you suggest, but it would be pretty risky. As far as re-signing the following year, it would take a team willing to pay a huge luxury tax bill . . . like 50% of those contracts in luxury tax. Not sure there are many teams wanting to write out luxury tax checks that big.
Insein
Footballguy
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
Houston was up 3-2 with a win in Oracle and a home game on the schedule. Nevermind adding Lebron, just keep Chris healthy and we don't know the outcome. He was the reason for the 2nd and 3rd wins. Add Lebron and this is easily the closest we're going to get to serious competition.
Chaos Commish
Footballguy
As much as I disagree, I'll give you a big maybe here. They didn't play their best all season, but I think it may be worse than you think. They KNOW they don't have to. When they do, maybe the floundering gets in the way, but then again, maybe not.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
True. If Chris Paul can stay healthy. And you can find a reasonable way to replace the talent you'll have to jettison to fit LeBron and Chris Paul's deals in. And the Warriors continue to play too much iso ball.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
The Cavs would be $3 million over the cap without James. But that means they would be $19 million under the luxury tax threshold. Not sure how that would impact a sign and trade, but Cleveland would have to take back roughly $28 million in salary. Cleveland certainly would have to get creative to avoid paying and luxury tax.
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