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2021 Las Vegas Raiders - PLAYOFFS!!!! (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Hankmoody
- Start date
DocHolliday
Footballguy
The third down play calling is unbelievably bad. This team has the fade in full on mode.
dcgangstas
Footballguy
Chadstroma
Footballguy
WTF
SDJohnny
Footballguy
Chaka
Footballguy
Guys, this was not unexpected and it's also not over.
First off Cinci is a good team.
More importantly I think a lot of people were underestimating how difficult it would be to retool the offense mid season. Particularly with Olsen as the OC, I've personally never been impressed with him and one of the reasons I disliked the Gruden hiring was how he brought in so many retread coaches like Olsen & Guenther.
The true failure of the offense has been their season long inability to establish a running game and I don't see that changing until they get help on the offensive line.
I felt the same about Bradley but he is actually doing okay on some levels. I am not sure how much the run defense can be fixed in season but the secondary is playing surprisingly well. They should be able to fix the stupid penalties because this team was never good enough to survive stupid mistakes like that.
This was a fringe playoff team, at best, coming into the season and their margin for error got a lot smaller three weeks ago.
Nothing that has happened on the field has been a surprise.
I am interested to see how the rest of the season plays out. They have an opportunity this Thursday with Amari definitely out and possibly CeeDee too. I don't imagine they will capitalize on it but there is still a window.
Go Raiders!
First off Cinci is a good team.
More importantly I think a lot of people were underestimating how difficult it would be to retool the offense mid season. Particularly with Olsen as the OC, I've personally never been impressed with him and one of the reasons I disliked the Gruden hiring was how he brought in so many retread coaches like Olsen & Guenther.
The true failure of the offense has been their season long inability to establish a running game and I don't see that changing until they get help on the offensive line.
I felt the same about Bradley but he is actually doing okay on some levels. I am not sure how much the run defense can be fixed in season but the secondary is playing surprisingly well. They should be able to fix the stupid penalties because this team was never good enough to survive stupid mistakes like that.
This was a fringe playoff team, at best, coming into the season and their margin for error got a lot smaller three weeks ago.
Nothing that has happened on the field has been a surprise.
I am interested to see how the rest of the season plays out. They have an opportunity this Thursday with Amari definitely out and possibly CeeDee too. I don't imagine they will capitalize on it but there is still a window.
Go Raiders!
DocHolliday
Footballguy
I still believe a total rebuild isn’t necessary. Two or three good drafts could have LV full of enough talent to compete with any team. The problem is that an entirely new the coaching staff is necessary and may want to bring in their guys. A new coaching staff is necessary. There is no discipline and stupid penalties kill this team. The offense is boring and dumb. Third and six and the Raiders run. Third and one and the Raiders try a jet sweep. Suddenly, the future doesn’t seem so bright.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Carr seems like a good person. I hope he gets out and goes to a real organization and gets to enjoy winning.
SDJohnny
Footballguy
He's a good person of course, but he's looked awful the last three games. We threw behind the running backs, and missed at least one shot to D. Jackson that could have changed things today.
drummer
Footballguy
To me and I saw this back when Gruden had malcontent Jeff George for QB, Gruden hated when George would audible out of what Gruden called, and into a sack. Carr did the same because Carr and Gruden didn't trust each other. Mark Davis seems to love Carr, but only until another head coach wins with his own QB. At this point they Raiders are on full head coaching search, and Carr is the x-factor. He's a great guy and goes full out for games, but he is not a franchise QB, at least with the Raiders. The Raiders have to rebuild the front office structure with a GM like they had in Bruce Allen. Only Raiders Bruce Allen, not WFT Bruce Allen.
The new GM and HC has to reestablish the culture there as well. I don't think Mark "Miami Vice" Davis is anything like his dad as far as football acumen, maybe more like his dad when it comes to dominating decisions. Or maybe not. But like his dad, he will stick with players he loves to the teams detriment.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
He isn’t great and has been struggling. His interception was a forced throw to Waller. Is that because he doesn’t trust the WRs or are the other WRs not getting open?
Chaka
Footballguy
If you think Gruden & Carr didn't trust each other I don't think you were following the Raiders too closely.
drummer
Footballguy
And everyone thought Gruden was a good guy until those emails.
Edit: Carr's numbers are at around 16 tds, 9 ints, and 22 sacks. This isn't good. Not for a starting QB into his eighth year with a franchise. Carr is mid tier and not near elite. This into his eighth season as the Raiders franchise QB, only because he is either a an owners choice, and maybe not the GM or coaches choice.
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Chaka
Footballguy
Did they?
Again the idea that Carr and Gruden didn't trust each other is a circle that can't be squared.
That should be obvious to anyone watching the team even cursorily over the last four years. They were tight, they still are. Carr lives next door to Gruden, he uses Cindy Gruden's name as an audible. They're unquestionably close and trust each other.
As you said HCs like to bring in their own QBs, Gruden had four opportunities to do that and didn't. He never even drafted a developmental QB.
SDJohnny
Footballguy
He doesn't seem to trust Edwards at all and I don't think Edwards is creating any separation. He missed seeing Jackson open at least once and his INT to Apple was just ugly. If we keep Carr, we need to bring Adams in. I was there today and he was really off except for the one drive I missed while in line for the bathroom.
drummer
Footballguy
Come on, nobody need a secret crystal ball to see what the Raiders situation was over the past 40 years lulz. I live in California, reading about them in the local newspapers since I was a kid. You're hard pressed to think a native Californian doesn't know Raider football lol.
Coaches are paid to win games, and it doesn't matter of Gruden's wife borrowed sugar from Carr's wife. Gruden like most who came from the Bill Walsh tree understood what Walsh always said: you could never have enough quarterbacks. Gruden benched Jeff George against Al Davis' wishes. Jeff George was Davis' QB. Davis didn't like Gannon or even trust Gruden's offense. He fired Gruden for Callahan because Davis didn't like Gruden's horizontal offense and his power over the roster.
Gruden had more power in his second pass with the Raiders that still hadn't produced a franchise quarterback, and this from a head coach who won Super Bowl with Brad Johnson. Against his old team. For Gruden to not have any other QBs on the bench, coming from the Walsh tree and benching QB's for others while still being able to win with a QB on a roster he didn't build only means Carr is Miami Vice Davis' QB. There is no other reason why, given how long Carr has been there, and how limited he is just by the numbers. Carr has hit his ceiling, he can't transcend flaws from the front office, the more throws he has to make the more things work against it, and legacy players only worked pre salary cap era. Carr isn't the worst player on the Raiders offense, but if he is the best player on the Raiders offense, then the Raiders have a problem, and Gruden couldn't make him into an NFL MVP like he did with Gannon, albeit Gannon with Callahan, but only because that roster was loaded and with Gruden's offense.
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Chaka
Footballguy
Okay. Your premise was Gruden and Carr didn't trust each other.
40 years ago or 1998 have nothing to do with that.
Gruden was the de facto GM, Davis said it, Mayock said it, everyone knew it. Mark Davis gave Gruden the keys to the kingdom along with a $100 million dollar then year contract. The idea that Davis overruled Gruden is, I'm going to go with highly implausible.
No point in arguing opinion but I think most people who follow the team more closely that I do, and I'm going to suggest more closely than you do as well, would agree with me that the premise of Gruden & Carr not trusting each other is flawed.
drummer
Footballguy
Well if Carr is your only QB, who else are you going to trust???
Let me put it this way: Gruden was offered a the biggest contract ever to a head coach along with the most power.
The only position he either overlooked or didn't consider to fortify was the QB position.
Anyone would have to ask themselves after Gruden having all that power is why he would accept inheriting the QB. Unless that QB had a contract that had that QB sewn in, without having to have any other QB challenge that spot on the roster.
It either meant he had to build the franchise around Carr - which is insane given his numbers and ceiling, who is still mid tier and has a lot of intangibles, but into his eighth season and into his fourth with Gruden haven't won at least ten games in a regular season with - well I don't think any head coach with all that power looking at Carr think "I am going to continue to build around him".
Edit: also, Carr has still not won a post season game. In his eighth year with the franchise.
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DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
Go away dude. The 9ers suck too. Y’all have your own cluster #### to deal with.
Stupid ### Gruden has gone from being orgasmically excited to work with carr. To being indifferent about him. And then getting sort of excited about him. To him getting the ax.
Carr is decent to good. 95% dependent on the OL.
drummer
Footballguy
I like the Raiders more than I like the 49ers. I have followed Bay Area and Southern California football since I were a kid, I don't "bleed" any jersey colors.
Chaka
Footballguy
Or it means the simplest explanation is the correct one: Gruden trusted Carr and didn't want to replace him.
ICON211
Footballguy
Gruden was traded not fired, but that doesn't really matter. Al Davis got rid of Gruden because of Gruden's power over the roster????
ICON211
Footballguy
I can't believe it, but the offense may be the bigger weakness than the defense now. The Raiders have scored 16, 14 and 13 points in the last three games.
The play calling and even player usage are horrible.
I have to think that for whatever reason Jacobs and/or Drake were not ready to come in to the game after the fumble for the first play. Whatever the case, the first play can not be a Barber run and one of those first thee plays had to be a throw into the end zone.
I don't like a jet sweep on third and one, and if you're going to run that play don't run it with Edwards. Renfrow and Desean Jackson are better suited for jet sweeps.
The most frustrating play yesterday probably was the run on third and six from midfield about three minutes before the half. The reaction of the announcer, I think it was Ian Eagle, said it all "Why?". I put part of the blame on Carr for this play. He has the ability to get out of a bad play, but he went with it. He is not reading defenses well lately. When he gets to the line and says "we're good, we're good" I cringe because lately when I hear Carr say that at the line the play almost never works.
The best run play of the game yesterday was an 18 yard run by Jacobs in the third quarter with Carr under center and Jacobs being able to get up a head of steam before getting the ball. What do they do next??? Line up in shotgun and throw a two yard pass to Jacobs followed by another shotgun snap and a Jacobs run for a four yard loss. This team can not establish the run in part because the offensive line has not been a good run blocking line, but also in part because they don't try to. I also think Jacobs, and most power backs, are much more effective running from the I with the QB under center. I hate seeing the shotgun snap handoffs to Jacobs, giving him the ball standing still.
Carr has also gone back to being ultra conservative in the first half of the last three games. He is refusing to throw the ball down the field until the team is losing in the second half and he has to. Obviously part of the reason is the loss of Ruggs, but earlier in the year he was giving guys chances to make plays other than Ruggs. For example, in the Denver game Edwards made contested catches downfield. Carr has to cut it loose earlier in the game and let his guys have a chance to make plays. Carr has also been getting fooled by coverage on interceptions a couple times during this losing streak. His play has fallen off a cliff and not surprisingly so has the team.
The play calling and even player usage are horrible.
I have to think that for whatever reason Jacobs and/or Drake were not ready to come in to the game after the fumble for the first play. Whatever the case, the first play can not be a Barber run and one of those first thee plays had to be a throw into the end zone.
I don't like a jet sweep on third and one, and if you're going to run that play don't run it with Edwards. Renfrow and Desean Jackson are better suited for jet sweeps.
The most frustrating play yesterday probably was the run on third and six from midfield about three minutes before the half. The reaction of the announcer, I think it was Ian Eagle, said it all "Why?". I put part of the blame on Carr for this play. He has the ability to get out of a bad play, but he went with it. He is not reading defenses well lately. When he gets to the line and says "we're good, we're good" I cringe because lately when I hear Carr say that at the line the play almost never works.
The best run play of the game yesterday was an 18 yard run by Jacobs in the third quarter with Carr under center and Jacobs being able to get up a head of steam before getting the ball. What do they do next??? Line up in shotgun and throw a two yard pass to Jacobs followed by another shotgun snap and a Jacobs run for a four yard loss. This team can not establish the run in part because the offensive line has not been a good run blocking line, but also in part because they don't try to. I also think Jacobs, and most power backs, are much more effective running from the I with the QB under center. I hate seeing the shotgun snap handoffs to Jacobs, giving him the ball standing still.
Carr has also gone back to being ultra conservative in the first half of the last three games. He is refusing to throw the ball down the field until the team is losing in the second half and he has to. Obviously part of the reason is the loss of Ruggs, but earlier in the year he was giving guys chances to make plays other than Ruggs. For example, in the Denver game Edwards made contested catches downfield. Carr has to cut it loose earlier in the game and let his guys have a chance to make plays. Carr has also been getting fooled by coverage on interceptions a couple times during this losing streak. His play has fallen off a cliff and not surprisingly so has the team.
massraider
Footballguy
3rd and 6, Carr checks to a run play.
Chaka
Footballguy
Was Ruggs on the field for the Edwards grab against Denver?
I really think we are all underestimating how difficult it is to lose a guy like Ruggs mid-season. It changes so much about the way defenses approach the Raiders.
ICON211
Footballguy
Carr is playing differently now than he was earlier in the season. He was throwing the ball down the field and giving guys the chance to make plays even if they were not wide open. He has reverted back to checking everything down or taking all short completely safe throws and refusing to throw the ball down the field. In the Giants game there were guys open downfield and he either didn't look for them or refused to throw it on a couple of occasions. In the last two games there were almost no throws over 10 yards in the first half. He only started taking some shots when he absolutely had to in the second half and it was too late. He needs to start letting it rip earlier in games and at least giving his WRs a chance to make plays. His play is contributing to the team getting in a hole in the first half of seemingly every game lately.
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DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
carrs deep balls have also resembled punts, more than passes recently. when he let that ball go to zay (a target!), the second it left his hand, i was all "wtf was that?" certain it was going to be picked. @ICON211 is right. the offense looks like ####. carr looks awful. the right side of the o line is terrible. y'all see parker whiff that block? unreal. and IMHO, it's not all because ruggs is gone. that's ridiculous. it's part of it, but the play calling sucked when he was on the team. remember decoy spice? we've complained about it for years.
and don't get me started on the penalties.
and don't get me started on the penalties.
LawFitz
Footballguy
Sux to see Carr reverting back to scared form. Also sux to see KC's rebuilt OL rounding into later season form, while the Raiders equivalent regresses. Worst part is they can't even make a fair assessment of the situation to plan for the future, due to the the Gruden/Ruggs cluster ####.
Chaka
Footballguy
KC rebuilt their line with a lot of expensive A level talent they hadn't been living up to their ability.
The Raiders line has been living up to their ability.
DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
Bottom line, we all need to find a new hobby the next 5 years or so... Take up fishing maybe? Because the Raiders are in for another rebuild. None of this is Carr's fault, but it's time for him to move on. Mayock needs to leave as well. As much as I like both these guys, there just needs to be a monumental change. Maybe Mayock isn't to blame 100% for Cle, Abram, Ruggs, Arnette but those 4 draft busts ruined this incarnation of the Raiders, there's no getting around it.
As a fan the past 41 years, I thought things would get better after Al Davis passed only because the whole organization needed a reset. But clearly the Davis apple doesn't fall far from the tree. This organization is snakebit until someone other than a Davis takes over. Just my sober opinion...
As a fan the past 41 years, I thought things would get better after Al Davis passed only because the whole organization needed a reset. But clearly the Davis apple doesn't fall far from the tree. This organization is snakebit until someone other than a Davis takes over. Just my sober opinion...
ZADO
Footballguy
Total rebuild seems too extreme. We moved 2 steps forward only to move one step backwards due to some very unusual circumstances. We are an elite wr and an elite coach (someone like a Bill Belichick) a proven winner who knows how to run a winning organization and picks his own OC and DC , and of course add some other parts in the OL and secondary. Other than that i think the team made some great moves in the drafts and free agency ,yes we had a few clunkers but doesnt everyone?Bruno2 said:
True... I even understand not wanting to sign Mack to a huge contract. How did that work out for Chicago, Denver (Miller) and Houston (Watt), it doesn't make monetary sense to sign a pass rusher to a huge contract. But on the flip side you gotta hit on those picks! And the free agents they brought in have left a lot to be desired. And you really have to question dismantling the Oline all in one season. I get getting rid of Brown, but sending Hudson and Jackson off in the same season and relying on a 38 year old injured guard to anchor the line is a bit of a stretch. Losing Good was unexpected, but they should have planned better for not having Incognito available.
ZADO
Footballguy
Lets see what a Gruden-less draft looks like next year ,i mean i doubt it will be anyone who thinks drafting a kicker in the 1st rd is a good idea lol
joey
Footballguy
I have a new plan to stop the decades of pain….
1) rooting for my fantasy teams FIRST
2) pick a random "good" team each year (who isn’t an historical rival of the Raiders) and root for them that year
3) stop DVR-ing Raiders games to try to cut the cord
its just year after year of pain and honestly not really worth it.
GO MY FANTASY PLAYERS!
ETA : I’ll add a 4th that I deserve…
4) don’t let the door hit me in the ### on the way out
And 5) try to not post in this raiders thread anymore.
#5 might be the hardest part. I like you guys.
1) rooting for my fantasy teams FIRST
2) pick a random "good" team each year (who isn’t an historical rival of the Raiders) and root for them that year
3) stop DVR-ing Raiders games to try to cut the cord
its just year after year of pain and honestly not really worth it.
GO MY FANTASY PLAYERS!
ETA : I’ll add a 4th that I deserve…
4) don’t let the door hit me in the ### on the way out
And 5) try to not post in this raiders thread anymore.
#5 might be the hardest part. I like you guys.
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Should always root for your fantasy team 1st in my opinion. They are your team, you assembled them. None of us did anything other than maybe buy tickets or merch from our favorite NFL teams.
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
Hard to argue against this based the team’s performance the past two games. I assumed DJax could replicate Ruggs role.Chaka said:
At the same time Carr’s performance has regressed since the Charger game.
kaso
Footballguy
I've spent far too much time thinking about the current state of the Raiders this week ... I think I think two things:
1. The off the field stuff is having more of an impact on those guys then any of us can measure. The first two wins post Gruden, may have been them running on the high of the emotions, and now they have crashed. Let's ignore the comments about they're pro's, etc... the events the faced with Gruden and Ruggs (Arnette to a much lesser extent) carry far more weight than that of a player being traded, or injured for the season. Last week Jacobs talked about the impact of Ruggs, being around him for 5 years (they were at Alabama together), that he knows his family, etc. I'd imagine all of us would be impacted in our ability to focus at work if a close co-worker of 5 years found himself in the terrible situation that Ruggs put himself in. Not sure how this can be over come, outside of time.
2. The play calling has been absolutely brutal. Execution has been poor, but I think part of that can be put on the fact that the players are not being put in a position to find a rhythm during the game. If it is frustrating for us on the fan side of the TV, it must be even more frustrating for the players to be asked to execute a run on a 3rd down which hasn't worked all game, or at any point over the last 3 weeks. There has to be some internal processing of "this BS again" as they walk from the huddle to the line.
1. The off the field stuff is having more of an impact on those guys then any of us can measure. The first two wins post Gruden, may have been them running on the high of the emotions, and now they have crashed. Let's ignore the comments about they're pro's, etc... the events the faced with Gruden and Ruggs (Arnette to a much lesser extent) carry far more weight than that of a player being traded, or injured for the season. Last week Jacobs talked about the impact of Ruggs, being around him for 5 years (they were at Alabama together), that he knows his family, etc. I'd imagine all of us would be impacted in our ability to focus at work if a close co-worker of 5 years found himself in the terrible situation that Ruggs put himself in. Not sure how this can be over come, outside of time.
2. The play calling has been absolutely brutal. Execution has been poor, but I think part of that can be put on the fact that the players are not being put in a position to find a rhythm during the game. If it is frustrating for us on the fan side of the TV, it must be even more frustrating for the players to be asked to execute a run on a 3rd down which hasn't worked all game, or at any point over the last 3 weeks. There has to be some internal processing of "this BS again" as they walk from the huddle to the line.
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DA RAIDERS
Footballguy
in the four wins rugg played around 65% of the snaps in the two losses he played more than 80% of the snaps he is not the reason the offense doesn’t work
he helped make it go, but play calling and bad o line play are the problem.
he helped make it go, but play calling and bad o line play are the problem.
He may not be the problem - but he's not the answer either. I agree time to play Marcus
He may not be the problem - but he's not the answer either. I agree time to play Marcus
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Until the Raiders find a real HC, imaginative OC, and a GM that can draft starters in the first round, the losing will continue. It could be many years of losing as a KC continues to dominate and the Chargers improve.
I would to see Carr stick around but I think he has had enough and the Raiders are going to move on. QB will be another hole that needs filled for many years. This
I would to see Carr stick around but I think he has had enough and the Raiders are going to move on. QB will be another hole that needs filled for many years. This
Carr said at the beginning of the season that he would not play for any other team and that he would retire before playing anywhere else. I'm curious if he's changed his tune at all. I've always been a Carr backer but after 8 years I think a change of scenery would do Carr good. He's become the millenial version of Archie Manning, a very good QB stuck with a horrible organization.
Rodgers is most likely done in Green Bay, they should resign Adams and bring in Carr to battle Love for the starting spot next season.
By the way... Anyone want to know how to dismantle a once proud franchise and send it in a 20 year tailspin? Just look at the Raiders' draft classes the past 2 decades. Awful....
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