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2022 Las Vegas Raiders (3 Viewers)

joey

Footballguy
Which would you prefer as Raiders fan in 2023:
Scenario 1: Pay Jacobs, keep Waller, trade Renfrow
Scenario 2: Pay Jacobs, keep Renfrow, trade Waller
Scenario 3: Keep Renfrow + Waller, let Jacobs walk in FA
Scenario 4: Pay Jacobs, keep Renfrow + Waller

2 a million times over. I like what I see from Moreau and would rather spend Waller’s money on a defense and have the Offensive core be Carr, Adams, Jacobs, Hollins and some journeyman. If we keep Renfrow, I’m fine with that. He’s been such a baller for us until he got broken earlier this year.
 
Which would you prefer as Raiders fan in 2023:
Scenario 1: Pay Jacobs, keep Waller, trade Renfrow
Scenario 2: Pay Jacobs, keep Renfrow, trade Waller
Scenario 3: Keep Renfrow + Waller, let Jacobs walk in FA
Scenario 4: Pay Jacobs, keep Renfrow + Waller
5: trade renfrow and waller. let jacobs walk. build up the defense so it stops being an excuse when the offense can't score :welcome:
 

LawFitz

Footballguy
file this under ''this is crazy''

After Derek Carr's first Interception, a 12th player (# 52) from the Seahawks bench ran onto the field and started blocking


WTF. Seriously, this dude needs to be suspended. This is not the same as a regular 12th man foul. ****ing zebras. ****ing league better drop a hammer on this.
 

Chaka

Footballguy
file this under ''this is crazy''

After Derek Carr's first Interception, a 12th player (# 52) from the Seahawks bench ran onto the field and started blocking


WTF. Seriously, this dude needs to be suspended. This is not the same as a regular 12th man foul. ****ing zebras. ****ing league better drop a hammer on this.
To me it looks like 52 thought the play was dead and Diggs was coming to the sidelines to celebrate. Then 52 was like "Oh ####! Whelp..."

Either way, Raiders always get screwed by the refs.
 

DocHolliday

Footballguy
Which would you prefer as Raiders fan in 2023:
Scenario 1: Pay Jacobs, keep Waller, trade Renfrow
Scenario 2: Pay Jacobs, keep Renfrow, trade Waller
Scenario 3: Keep Renfrow + Waller, let Jacobs walk in FA
Scenario 4: Pay Jacobs, keep Renfrow + Waller
5: trade renfrow and waller. let jacobs walk. build up the defense so it stops being an excuse when the offense can't score :welcome:
Trading Waller is a given. Too bad it’s a year late and his value is dropping. Not sure any team would be willing to give up anything that matters for Renfrow so it’s likely he returns next season. Jacobs is going to be the debate and his return depends on his asking price. LV cannot spend too much on a RB. There are too many good ones available that paying for a great one doesn’t make sense.
 

Chaka

Footballguy
Looking at this team I think we should give some mad respect to the offensive line coaches and the players up in front of Carr & Jacobs.

They are blocking for the NFL's leading rusher, no one saw that coming and he's not doing it on his own, it's' a lot of scheme and beef to go along with Jacobs's awesomeness.

And, in the passing game the Raider QBs have been sacked 22 times on 397 attempts (5.5%). Again, scheme, beef and Carr understanding the offense.

There is a reason that QBs like Matt Cassell, Jacoby Brissett & Jimmy Garoppolo look like franchise QBs in McDaniels' offense and it's not because they are franchise QBs. It's because they're smart and the offense protects them from mistakes.

Maybe they don't need to waste too much FA budget or draft capital adding beef up front next year. The offense may be good enough to win now. I still think Renfrow can come in and be a big contributor and Hollins has been surprisingly capable and would round out a talented WR group. Adding legitimate pass rush help for Maxx and a big body or two in the middle would also go a long way to masking deficiencies in the back seven on defense.
 
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Chadstroma

Footballguy
Which would you prefer as Raiders fan in 2023:
Scenario 1: Pay Jacobs, keep Waller, trade Renfrow
Scenario 2: Pay Jacobs, keep Renfrow, trade Waller
Scenario 3: Keep Renfrow + Waller, let Jacobs walk in FA
Scenario 4: Pay Jacobs, keep Renfrow + Waller
I mean, 4 but Jacobs is going to cost a pretty penny now. I was demanding we extended him early in the season and with each game that cost just keeps going up. If it is a question of only being able to keep 2 of the three then I want Jacobs and Renfrow. At 30 and with some injury questions now plus having Moreau means I will take 3rd and Renfrow and The Beast of Vegas. Moreau isn't a game changer like Waller but he is a good TE.
 

DA RAIDERS

willy t flyers
Waller hasnt changed a game since 2020. I’m still annoyed they bent to the pressure and resigned him before they had to.
 

ZADO

Footballguy
The heck with next years draft position, i love this winning :moneybag:
It does feel good when your team wins. Unfortunately the wins don’t matter at this point in a loss season.
McDaniel's in a video clip from the locker room after the win said next week was a huge divisional game at home , is he implying the Raiders have a shot to make the playoffs with wins? Or just trying to stay competitive ?
 

Chaka

Footballguy
The heck with next years draft position, i love this winning :moneybag:
It does feel good when your team wins. Unfortunately the wins don’t matter at this point in a loss season.
McDaniel's in a video clip from the locker room after the win said next week was a huge divisional game at home , is he implying the Raiders have a shot to make the playoffs with wins? Or just trying to stay competitive ?
As we know from last season 10-7 puts them in the hunt.
 

Chaka

Footballguy
Waller hasnt changed a game since 2020. I’m still annoyed they bent to the pressure and resigned him before they had to.
I am not sure what external pressure you are referring to. I know there was a lot of fans who wanted him locked up long term but I doubt their concerns went into the decision to extend him.

I do think it is possible that beyond just the X's & O's maybe part of their calculus was to send a message to other players both FAs and guys on the roster that this is a front office that is willing to pay their players. It's a good message that resonates through the locker room. Hunter, Maxx, Carr, Waller the locker room appreciated that the team is willing to pony up.
 

DA RAIDERS

willy t flyers
Waller hasnt changed a game since 2020. I’m still annoyed they bent to the pressure and resigned him before they had to.
I am not sure what external pressure you are referring to. I know there was a lot of fans who wanted him locked up long term but I doubt their concerns went into the decision to extend him.

I do think it is possible that beyond just the X's & O's maybe part of their calculus was to send a message to other players both FAs and guys on the roster that this is a front office that is willing to pay their players. It's a good message that resonates through the locker room. Hunter, Maxx, Carr, Waller the locker room appreciated that the team is willing to pony up.
They paid maxx, Carr and renfrow. They were then “obligated“ to lock up Waller. He had that good guy, overcame obstacles, supposedly was a good team mate thing working for him. Now? not so much. might Still be a good guy, but I think the team is fed up with him.
 

Chaka

Footballguy
Waller hasnt changed a game since 2020. I’m still annoyed they bent to the pressure and resigned him before they had to.
I am not sure what external pressure you are referring to. I know there was a lot of fans who wanted him locked up long term but I doubt their concerns went into the decision to extend him.

I do think it is possible that beyond just the X's & O's maybe part of their calculus was to send a message to other players both FAs and guys on the roster that this is a front office that is willing to pay their players. It's a good message that resonates through the locker room. Hunter, Maxx, Carr, Waller the locker room appreciated that the team is willing to pony up.
They paid maxx, Carr and renfrow. They were then “obligated“ to lock up Waller. He had that good guy, overcame obstacles, supposedly was a good team mate thing working for him. Now? not so much. might Still be a good guy, but I think the team is fed up with him.
How were they obligated to do that? They could easily have said no, just like they said no to Jacobs 5th year option.
 

LawFitz

Footballguy
McDaniel's in a video clip from the locker room after the win said next week was a huge divisional game at home , is he implying the Raiders have a shot to make the playoffs with wins?

Crazy and unlikely as hell, but IF they run the table, they would likely get in at 10-7.

They are blocking for the NFL's leading rusher, no one saw that coming and he's not doing it on his own, it's' a lot of scheme and beef to go along with Jacobs's awesomeness.

Not just the NFL's rushing leader through 2/3 of the season, but also the RB1 in fantasy football. Not an RB1, THE #1 overall RB.
 

DA RAIDERS

willy t flyers
Waller hasnt changed a game since 2020. I’m still annoyed they bent to the pressure and resigned him before they had to.
I am not sure what external pressure you are referring to. I know there was a lot of fans who wanted him locked up long term but I doubt their concerns went into the decision to extend him.

I do think it is possible that beyond just the X's & O's maybe part of their calculus was to send a message to other players both FAs and guys on the roster that this is a front office that is willing to pay their players. It's a good message that resonates through the locker room. Hunter, Maxx, Carr, Waller the locker room appreciated that the team is willing to pony up.
They paid maxx, Carr and renfrow. They were then “obligated“ to lock up Waller. He had that good guy, overcame obstacles, supposedly was a good team mate thing working for him. Now? not so much. might Still be a good guy, but I think the team is fed up with him.
How were they obligated to do that? They could easily have said no, just like they said no to Jacobs 5th year option.
Call it what you will. I was surprised they didn’t extend Jacobs. Jacobs doesn’t have the off field appeal that Waller has. Cynical I know, but I feel that wallers ‘story‘ played into his being resigned.
 

LawFitz

Footballguy
Jacobs doesn’t have the off field appeal that Waller has. Cynical I know, but I feel that wallers ‘story‘ played into his being resigned.

Nah. This came down to positional scarcity, prior history and contractual leverage - until this season, JJ was banged up a lot and when healthy he looked good/very good and well-rounded, but not super elite (like he has this year). Waller OTOH, while dinged since last year, displayed top-3 elite TE play-making when healthy for multiple seasons prior. They bet on the more scarce asset and according to past performance and it's gone completely sideways... Not too dis-similar to the Chandler Jones ****ery.

As for Jacobs, they have the franchise tag in their back pocket. IF they don't sign him long term, they will pay him roughly $3 MM more next season than they would have on the 5th year option. No chance they let him walk as a FA prior to 2024 after what he has displayed this year. I am sure they did that calculus and decided to gamble that $3 MM on forcing him to prove it in their system, which traditionally has favored an RBBC approach.
 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
Is it possible it isn't all gloom and doom?

First, I don't care about getting the #1 overall pick. I need to see this team fight and win. That informs me about the players on the team and more importantly how they respond to the coaching. I have never questioned McDaniels offensive mind. Throwing out the outliner of the Saints game, the low point scoring game was 19 against a Charger defense that had all it's guys ready (except JC) and playing. The offense has played well other than that one game of a dud. A couple of games ago though, I did start to question whether McDaniels had lost this locker room and it looked like he just is one of the long list of Belicheat coaching tree failures with a repeat of his horrible Denver stay. This team winning or losing, even with nearly no realistic road to the playoffs, tells me more about what we need to know than getting a couple spots higher on the draft board.

@Chaka brought up the line. Parham has come in and played well and Munford has flashed. In fact, he is our highest PFF rated rookie. If he continues to develop into a RT then we have our LT, C and LG and RT and could easily draft a RG in the 2nd round to start. Bars and Eluemanor have stepped up but they are both suited as backups in my mind.

The rest of the offense is good (assuming we retain Jacobs). Let's just put to rest this Carr sucks crap. He isn't the problem. He isn't even close to being a problem.

The problem is our defense. The good is this: We have one of the best (actually, IMO he is playing the best defensive football in the NFL right now) defenders in the game. We have another great young talent in Hobbs. Perryman was a steal and continues to play at a high level. The bad is this: Jones has been an absolute bust of a failure. We have had no other play on the line to come close to the level of Crosby. Some other players are playing at 'piece level' but other than Crosby and Hobbs, we are void of difference makers. The ugly is this: Jones contract sucks. We can't easily walk away from this bad decision.

How do we fix this? Another legit pass rusher will make a world of a difference for this defense. Ideally, we can draft a game wrecking DT that can pass rush but I would take an edge rusher for sure. If DT then I would like to find someone, maybe FA or later draft picks, that we can spell Jones. Have Jones transition to a part time player so maybe he has some burst. The positive about Jones is that he does bring a lot of leadership and 'intangibles' so... since we are stuck with him, let's figure out how to get the most from him. It is clear to me that he is too old to be on the field for all 3 downs. He needs to be sub 50% on snaps while he is currently running around 75%. Adding a really good pass rusher along with Crosby will go a long way to transforming this defense.

I really liked Graham coming in but I am questioning him as a DC. There were two plays that we had basically given the short/middle of the field completely up in a way that you rarely see. Maybe it is lack of talent? Maybe Graham isn't the right DC? I don't know.

We don't have to do much with the offense. Shore up the line a bit more and don't muck it up trying to get cute with something stupid like trading Carr. Add to the defense and have it be at least a midling defense and we can be a dangerous team. Remember, for most of the games we lost, it was literally 1 or 2 plays breaking our way in them and we would be 9-2 right now. It will take a near miracle for us to make a run this year but next year even with Jones crappy contract, we have the 9th most money to spend as well and assuming we don't go on some miracle run, a decent draft position.

Plus, the Donkeys being stuck with a Wilson who looks toast, no way out and giving Seattle all their picks is delicious. On a side note, Seattle is going to be a young and dangerous team with all of those Donkey picks and what they have now. Good on Geno to go from throw away to a legit NFL starter.
 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
Waller hasnt changed a game since 2020. I’m still annoyed they bent to the pressure and resigned him before they had to.
I am not sure what external pressure you are referring to. I know there was a lot of fans who wanted him locked up long term but I doubt their concerns went into the decision to extend him.

I do think it is possible that beyond just the X's & O's maybe part of their calculus was to send a message to other players both FAs and guys on the roster that this is a front office that is willing to pay their players. It's a good message that resonates through the locker room. Hunter, Maxx, Carr, Waller the locker room appreciated that the team is willing to pony up.
They paid maxx, Carr and renfrow. They were then “obligated“ to lock up Waller. He had that good guy, overcame obstacles, supposedly was a good team mate thing working for him. Now? not so much. might Still be a good guy, but I think the team is fed up with him.
How were they obligated to do that? They could easily have said no, just like they said no to Jacobs 5th year option.
Call it what you will. I was surprised they didn’t extend Jacobs. Jacobs doesn’t have the off field appeal that Waller has. Cynical I know, but I feel that wallers ‘story‘ played into his being resigned.
You cynical? Say it ain't so
 

Chaka

Footballguy
As for Jacobs, they have the franchise tag in their back pocket. IF they don't sign him long term, they will pay him roughly $3 MM more next season than they would have on the 5th year option. No chance they let him walk as a FA prior to 2024 after what he has displayed this year. I am sure they did that calculus and decided to gamble that $3 MM on forcing him to prove it in their system, which traditionally has favored an RBBC approach.
He's proven it IMO. Now they need to stop beating the #### out of him and get him some help to reduce his workload.
 

DA RAIDERS

willy t flyers
Jacobs doesn’t have the off field appeal that Waller has. Cynical I know, but I feel that wallers ‘story‘ played into his being resigned.

Nah. This came down to positional scarcity, prior history and contractual leverage - until this season, JJ was banged up a lot and when healthy he looked good/very good and well-rounded, but not super elite (like he has this year). Waller OTOH, while dinged since last year, displayed top-3 elite TE play-making when healthy for multiple seasons prior. They bet on the more scarce asset and according to past performance and it's gone completely sideways... Not too dis-similar to the Chandler Jones ****ery.

As for Jacobs, they have the franchise tag in their back pocket. IF they don't sign him long term, they will pay him roughly $3 MM more next season than they would have on the 5th year option. No chance they let him walk as a FA prior to 2024 after what he has displayed this year. I am sure they did that calculus and decided to gamble that $3 MM on forcing him to prove it in their system, which traditionally has favored an RBBC approach.
Agreed. My thought isn’t the only reason they resigned him, just a factor. I’m on record from the moment they signed Waller, that I would have preferred to wait out his existing contract and let him prove his health And that he could return to form. Turns out I was right.
 

DA RAIDERS

willy t flyers
And put me in the controversial camp of let Waller play out this contract. If he stays healthy and balls out, then pay him. I think it’s a mistake to pay the guy now.
:coffee: 😂

guy has 16 catches this year. 3 tds over the last 2 years. Signing him when they did was a mistake. Whatever the reason. I’m never a fan of giving a new deal, when the old one is in place. Unless the player is truly next level and you can save some money by doing it early. :shrug:

eta: in before Waller is elite. 2 seasons doesnt equate to elite, when followed by an injury ridden dud.
 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
You guys see the play where the Seahawk on the sidelines ran in the field and then threw a block? It looks to me that he started celebrating thinking the play was over and then realized it wasn't and just went for it. Totally missed by the refs (and broadcasters).
 

ZADO

Footballguy
You guys see the play where the Seahawk on the sidelines ran in the field and then threw a block? It looks to me that he started celebrating thinking the play was over and then realized it wasn't and just went for it. Totally missed by the refs (and broadcasters).
I posted a twitter link showing this above in post
 

DA RAIDERS

willy t flyers
You guys see the play where the Seahawk on the sidelines ran in the field and then threw a block? It looks to me that he started celebrating thinking the play was over and then realized it wasn't and just went for it. Totally missed by the refs (and broadcasters).
I did see it. After the fact. I’m intrigued as to whether or not the league office will do anything.
 

ZADO

Footballguy
You guys see the play where the Seahawk on the sidelines ran in the field and then threw a block? It looks to me that he started celebrating thinking the play was over and then realized it wasn't and just went for it. Totally missed by the refs (and broadcasters).
I did see it. After the fact. I’m intrigued as to whether or not the league office will do anything.
If it was the difference between winning or losing i would hope so , but we won so it will be swept under the rug im sure
 

Chaka

Footballguy
You guys see the play where the Seahawk on the sidelines ran in the field and then threw a block? It looks to me that he started celebrating thinking the play was over and then realized it wasn't and just went for it. Totally missed by the refs (and broadcasters).
I did see it. After the fact. I’m intrigued as to whether or not the league office will do anything.
They'll probably laugh because it happened to the Raiders.
 

ZADO

Footballguy
Which would you prefer as Raiders fan in 2023:
Scenario 1: Pay Jacobs, keep Waller, trade Renfrow
Scenario 2: Pay Jacobs, keep Renfrow, trade Waller
Scenario 3: Keep Renfrow + Waller, let Jacobs walk in FA
Scenario 4: Pay Jacobs, keep Renfrow + Waller

2 a million times over. I like what I see from Moreau and would rather spend Waller’s money on a defense and have the Offensive core be Carr, Adams, Jacobs, Hollins and some journeyman. If we keep Renfrow, I’m fine with that. He’s been such a baller for us until he got broken earlier this year.
Renfrow: Dead: $7.3 M
Cap savings: $6 M

Waller: Dead: $660k
Cap savings: $11.98 M
 

LawFitz

Footballguy
Which would you prefer as Raiders fan in 2023:
Scenario 1: Pay Jacobs, keep Waller, trade Renfrow
Scenario 2: Pay Jacobs, keep Renfrow, trade Waller
Scenario 3: Keep Renfrow + Waller, let Jacobs walk in FA
Scenario 4: Pay Jacobs, keep Renfrow + Waller

2 a million times over. I like what I see from Moreau and would rather spend Waller’s money on a defense and have the Offensive core be Carr, Adams, Jacobs, Hollins and some journeyman. If we keep Renfrow, I’m fine with that. He’s been such a baller for us until he got broken earlier this year.
Renfrow: Dead: $7.3 M
Cap savings: $6 M

Waller: Dead: $660k
Cap savings: $11.98 M

Where are you getting these figures from?

According to Spotrac, Raiders are tied hips to Waller through 2023. $9 MM dead cap if cut prior to next season. $500k dead cap if cut just prior to 2024 season.

I don't recall exactly, but my recollection from when they each signed is that only Carr's contract has an easy out after this season.
 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
Which would you prefer as Raiders fan in 2023:
Scenario 1: Pay Jacobs, keep Waller, trade Renfrow
Scenario 2: Pay Jacobs, keep Renfrow, trade Waller
Scenario 3: Keep Renfrow + Waller, let Jacobs walk in FA
Scenario 4: Pay Jacobs, keep Renfrow + Waller

2 a million times over. I like what I see from Moreau and would rather spend Waller’s money on a defense and have the Offensive core be Carr, Adams, Jacobs, Hollins and some journeyman. If we keep Renfrow, I’m fine with that. He’s been such a baller for us until he got broken earlier this year.
Renfrow: Dead: $7.3 M
Cap savings: $6 M

Waller: Dead: $660k
Cap savings: $11.98 M

Where are you getting these figures from?

According to Spotrac, Raiders are tied hips to Waller through 2023. $9 MM dead cap if cut prior to next season. $500k dead cap if cut just prior to 2024 season.

I don't recall exactly, but my recollection from when they each signed is that only Carr's contract has an easy out after this season.
I prefer over the cap.
Looking there, 2023 trade pre-June 1st is $660K dead and $11.98M savings. Post June 1 trade even more savings.

If you cut him pre-June 1st $8.9M dead and $3.7M saved.

So, trade vs cut- big difference in the books apparently.
 

joey

Footballguy
Thanks for sharing. That dude is hilarious.
and here are his previous highlights for the Raiders game vs the Broncos. Brilliant insights, as always…
 

ZADO

Footballguy
Which would you prefer as Raiders fan in 2023:
Scenario 1: Pay Jacobs, keep Waller, trade Renfrow
Scenario 2: Pay Jacobs, keep Renfrow, trade Waller
Scenario 3: Keep Renfrow + Waller, let Jacobs walk in FA
Scenario 4: Pay Jacobs, keep Renfrow + Waller

2 a million times over. I like what I see from Moreau and would rather spend Waller’s money on a defense and have the Offensive core be Carr, Adams, Jacobs, Hollins and some journeyman. If we keep Renfrow, I’m fine with that. He’s been such a baller for us until he got broken earlier this year.
Renfrow: Dead: $7.3 M
Cap savings: $6 M

Waller: Dead: $660k
Cap savings: $11.98 M

Where are you getting these figures from?

According to Spotrac, Raiders are tied hips to Waller through 2023. $9 MM dead cap if cut prior to next season. $500k dead cap if cut just prior to 2024 season.

I don't recall exactly, but my recollection from when they each signed is that only Carr's contract has an easy out after this season.
Just some random post on twitter :laugh: kinda looked like he knew what he was talking about
 

LawFitz

Footballguy
Which would you prefer as Raiders fan in 2023:
Scenario 1: Pay Jacobs, keep Waller, trade Renfrow
Scenario 2: Pay Jacobs, keep Renfrow, trade Waller
Scenario 3: Keep Renfrow + Waller, let Jacobs walk in FA
Scenario 4: Pay Jacobs, keep Renfrow + Waller

2 a million times over. I like what I see from Moreau and would rather spend Waller’s money on a defense and have the Offensive core be Carr, Adams, Jacobs, Hollins and some journeyman. If we keep Renfrow, I’m fine with that. He’s been such a baller for us until he got broken earlier this year.
Renfrow: Dead: $7.3 M
Cap savings: $6 M

Waller: Dead: $660k
Cap savings: $11.98 M

Where are you getting these figures from?

According to Spotrac, Raiders are tied hips to Waller through 2023. $9 MM dead cap if cut prior to next season. $500k dead cap if cut just prior to 2024 season.

I don't recall exactly, but my recollection from when they each signed is that only Carr's contract has an easy out after this season.
I prefer over the cap.
Looking there, 2023 trade pre-June 1st is $660K dead and $11.98M savings. Post June 1 trade even more savings.

If you cut him pre-June 1st $8.9M dead and $3.7M saved.

So, trade vs cut- big difference in the books apparently.

Ok, yes, I see that now. The difference in Waller's case (vs. so many others with big contracts) is that Waller's guaranteed dollars were in the form of annual salary the first two years, rather than a huge signing bonus. That allows him to be traded with little dead cap as long as the receiving team is willing to take on those guaranteed salary amounts. So Waller can indeed be traded to get the Raiders out of the deal he has now. That fact is especially interesting considering that the Packers reportedly offered them 'something' to take Waller of their hands at this year's trade deadline and they declined. Says a lot about how they feel about Waller as a future part of this team, for at minimum 2023. Even if only a 7th rounder in exchange, they would've received ~$17 MM in 2023 cap relief had they shipped him to GB and yet they chose otherwise. For context, at that moment (Nov 1) they were 2-5, had just been shutout by the Saints and Waller had missed four weeks with his hammy without a near-term outlook for return, considering he was put on IR a couple weeks later. It's clear that McZ and/or Davis project Waller to be a big part of the Raiders plans next year, at least.
 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
Which would you prefer as Raiders fan in 2023:
Scenario 1: Pay Jacobs, keep Waller, trade Renfrow
Scenario 2: Pay Jacobs, keep Renfrow, trade Waller
Scenario 3: Keep Renfrow + Waller, let Jacobs walk in FA
Scenario 4: Pay Jacobs, keep Renfrow + Waller

2 a million times over. I like what I see from Moreau and would rather spend Waller’s money on a defense and have the Offensive core be Carr, Adams, Jacobs, Hollins and some journeyman. If we keep Renfrow, I’m fine with that. He’s been such a baller for us until he got broken earlier this year.
Renfrow: Dead: $7.3 M
Cap savings: $6 M

Waller: Dead: $660k
Cap savings: $11.98 M

Where are you getting these figures from?

According to Spotrac, Raiders are tied hips to Waller through 2023. $9 MM dead cap if cut prior to next season. $500k dead cap if cut just prior to 2024 season.

I don't recall exactly, but my recollection from when they each signed is that only Carr's contract has an easy out after this season.
I prefer over the cap.
Looking there, 2023 trade pre-June 1st is $660K dead and $11.98M savings. Post June 1 trade even more savings.

If you cut him pre-June 1st $8.9M dead and $3.7M saved.

So, trade vs cut- big difference in the books apparently.

Ok, yes, I see that now. The difference in Waller's case (vs. so many others with big contracts) is that Waller's guaranteed dollars were in the form of annual salary the first two years, rather than a huge signing bonus. That allows him to be traded with little dead cap as long as the receiving team is willing to take on those guaranteed salary amounts. So Waller can indeed be traded to get the Raiders out of the deal he has now. That fact is especially interesting considering that the Packers reportedly offered them 'something' to take Waller of their hands at this year's trade deadline and they declined. Says a lot about how they feel about Waller as a future part of this team, for at minimum 2023. Even if only a 7th rounder in exchange, they would've received ~$17 MM in 2023 cap relief had they shipped him to GB and yet they chose otherwise. For context, at that moment (Nov 1) they were 2-5, had just been shutout by the Saints and Waller had missed four weeks with his hammy without a near-term outlook for return, considering he was put on IR a couple weeks later. It's clear that McZ and/or Davis project Waller to be a big part of the Raiders plans next year, at least.
It isn't hard to see why. When healthy he has proven to be a top 3 elite threat at the TE position. You can do a lot with an offense when you have a mismatch like Waller at TE. I really like Moreau and for the last few years have begged to see more double TE formations for passing plays to use both. That being said, Moreau is a good TE but he isn't going to scare any defenses but Waller has the DC's gameplan for him. Imagine a healthy Waller and Renfrow with Adams and Jacobs in the backfield.... we haven't really seen that yet. I think that his hammy was still bothering him in the games he played (remember he had time out in July for a hammy and then I think it flared up again week 5) which is why he didn't look like he normally does. Seriously, imagine a healthy Waller and Renfrow with this offense that other than the NO game, has shown itself as one of the offenses in the league. Add in a better defense.... let's go
 

Bruno2

Footballguy
Abrams released by the Packers.

Bryan Edwards released by the Falcons.
Another successful Grudock draft pick.
In their defense, iirc, Abrams was seen as a concensus top pick for us at the time and at that draft position, right? Or am I misremembering?
Yes but I don’t think he had 1st round grades. If I remember right, he was considered a reach. Not a crazy reach like Arnette and Leatherwood, but a reach nonetheless.
 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
Abrams released by the Packers.

Bryan Edwards released by the Falcons.
Another successful Grudock draft pick.
In their defense, iirc, Abrams was seen as a concensus top pick for us at the time and at that draft position, right? Or am I misremembering?
Yes but I don’t think he had 1st round grades. If I remember right, he was considered a reach. Not a crazy reach like Arnette and Leatherwood, but a reach nonetheless.
I don't remember him being considered a reach and was definitely seen as the best S prospect that year.
 

joey

Footballguy
In their defense, iirc, Abrams was seen as a concensus top pick for us at the time and at that draft position, right? Or am I misremembering?
Yes but I don’t think he had 1st round grades. If I remember right, he was considered a reach. Not a crazy reach like Arnette and Leatherwood, but a reach nonetheless.
I don't remember him being considered a reach and was definitely seen as the best S prospect that year.
Same here.
Abrams, like Gallery Back in the day, are picks I am not upset about. They’re guys who were generally highly ranked by the masses (fwiw) and weren’t reaches. They just busted and that happens sometimes. It’s the head scratcher picks who then bust that make me want to scream.
 

Bruno2

Footballguy
In their defense, iirc, Abrams was seen as a concensus top pick for us at the time and at that draft position, right? Or am I misremembering?
Yes but I don’t think he had 1st round grades. If I remember right, he was considered a reach. Not a crazy reach like Arnette and Leatherwood, but a reach nonetheless.
I don't remember him being considered a reach and was definitely seen as the best S prospect that year.
Same here.
Abrams, like Gallery Back in the day, are picks I am not upset about. They’re guys who were generally highly ranked by the masses (fwiw) and weren’t reaches. They just busted and that happens sometimes. It’s the head scratcher picks who then bust that make me want to scream.
Just like every year, every “expert “ has different rankings. But I believe it wasn’t a very highly regarded safety class in 2019. Hindsight 20/20 and that stuff but I think Abram could have been had later in the draft. Either way, still a bad pick IMO. Drafting a safety in the 1st round that was known more for his hitting than ball hawking abilities is a bad idea in todays NFL.
 

Chadstroma

Footballguy
In their defense, iirc, Abrams was seen as a concensus top pick for us at the time and at that draft position, right? Or am I misremembering?
Yes but I don’t think he had 1st round grades. If I remember right, he was considered a reach. Not a crazy reach like Arnette and Leatherwood, but a reach nonetheless.
I don't remember him being considered a reach and was definitely seen as the best S prospect that year.
Same here.
Abrams, like Gallery Back in the day, are picks I am not upset about. They’re guys who were generally highly ranked by the masses (fwiw) and weren’t reaches. They just busted and that happens sometimes. It’s the head scratcher picks who then bust that make me want to scream.
Just like every year, every “expert “ has different rankings. But I believe it wasn’t a very highly regarded safety class in 2019. Hindsight 20/20 and that stuff but I think Abram could have been had later in the draft. Either way, still a bad pick IMO. Drafting a safety in the 1st round that was known more for his hitting than ball hawking abilities is a bad idea in todays NFL.
I don't like the "could have got him later" argument because you don't know. Unless you have access to all 31 other teams drsft boards... you don't know.

Plus, my view on draft picks is it doesn't matter where they are taken versus what the consensus says is that it really doesn't matter.
Let's face it, when we say things like X draft grade or should have been taken in a later round or whatever we are talking about what a few draft "experts" say. Sure, is amateurs have our own thoughts but all are wrong with swing and misses and all have some good calls. Two of my misses were being excited about Rolando McClain (largely due to the 'consensus' of that being a good pick) and hating the Kolton Miller pick (largely due to the 'consensus' it was a reach). In the end... what the player does or doesn't do is what matters. Kolton Miller was a good 1st round pick. I don't care if we might have got him later. Maxx Crosby os a phenomenal 4th rounder. Most of our 1st recently have been proven bad picks.

That all said... 100% agree... it was a bad pick. It was shown that he wasn't a 1st round worthy player.
 

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