zamboni
Footballguy
Wasn’t saying Jones was good, just that the wind didn’t have much effect on him. Zach was off on many of those same checkdowns.
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2023 New York Jets: Bye Bye (13 Viewers)
- Thread starter Dr. Octopus
- Start date
rockaction
Footballguy
Sure thing, and you're right. I quoted you, but wasn't really talking about you. You more prompted me to say that than anything of substance in your post. Sorry if it came off that way. It seems like I'm talking directly about you, and I'm talking more about other people on this board and in the media.
RC94
Footballguy
IMO the Jets have already exceeded expectations by a large margin. I don't expect them to lose out the rest of the year, but if they did they would still have more wins than I expected going into the season. This was an amazing draft and the coaches have done a great job of developing the young talent. Sauce Gardner alone makes this a great draft considering he's not just the best rookie, but also already one of the top 10 CBs in the NFL.
Wilson is the main question, obviously. I think they should stick with him the rest of the year to see if he can improve, not only on the field but especially with how he changes his attitude after this. If he still sucks they can go after another QB during the offseason. Making the playoffs this year was never the goal and even though it's within reach now, I sill wouldn't make it the primary goal for this year.
If they do go for another QB during the offseason I wouldn't bother with Garappolo. I'd probably look to the draft again but instead of going after arm talent upside like Darnold and Wilson, I'd place a greater emphasis on someone who has a better understanding of the game and can read a defense and make quick, good decisions. Don't need a guy who can throw the ball 80 yards if he doesn't make good decisions.
Wilson is the main question, obviously. I think they should stick with him the rest of the year to see if he can improve, not only on the field but especially with how he changes his attitude after this. If he still sucks they can go after another QB during the offseason. Making the playoffs this year was never the goal and even though it's within reach now, I sill wouldn't make it the primary goal for this year.
If they do go for another QB during the offseason I wouldn't bother with Garappolo. I'd probably look to the draft again but instead of going after arm talent upside like Darnold and Wilson, I'd place a greater emphasis on someone who has a better understanding of the game and can read a defense and make quick, good decisions. Don't need a guy who can throw the ball 80 yards if he doesn't make good decisions.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Wilson is benched for the Chicago game.
FairWarning
Footballguy
Flacco starting?
zamboni
Footballguy
Haven’t said yet but I’m guessing yes.
Kiddnets
Footballguy
Wow - thought theyd at least give him a half vs Chicago....he really screwed up with the post game attitude - how did he not come right out and apologize/clarify - whose advising this kid?
Kiddnets
Footballguy
im not so sure - White is the #2...interesting that he didnt state who is starting
zamboni
Footballguy
True but they could elevate Flacco.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I hope not. I hope it's White.
TLEF316
Footballguy
Certainly not happy news, but he was SO bad that its hard to blame them. Just doesn't look like anything close to a competent NFL QB (let alone a good or even average one) and this D is too good to waste.
Agree that this PROBABLY doesn't happen if his post game reaction wasn't so terrible. It would have been just so easy to take the blame (which would have been thoroughly deserved, obviously) but he just couldn't do it.
Saleh didn't want to lose the locker room and I think he knows deep down that the kid just isnt any good.
Agree that this PROBABLY doesn't happen if his post game reaction wasn't so terrible. It would have been just so easy to take the blame (which would have been thoroughly deserved, obviously) but he just couldn't do it.
Saleh didn't want to lose the locker room and I think he knows deep down that the kid just isnt any good.
FairWarning
Footballguy
Makes the most sense as their goals have changed thanks to their success. As much as you want to groom a qb, there is the rest of the team playing well enough for a playoff spot.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Knowing Saleh, I think that may have been the biggest reason (of course the terrible play heavily factored in as well). You can't have a QB that isn't a leader and who doesn't take responsibility.
zamboni
Footballguy
Agreed, although I think if they were 3-7 rather than 6-4, he probably doesn’t make the move.
zamboni
Footballguy
Shows what I know
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
It really does makes sense to have Flacco as the backup if you're going with White, in case White starts turning the ball over to the Bears. It does however send the message that "Zach is done" though.
QuizGuy66
Footballguy
Fwiw I think the benching IS the test. Clearly Zach has attitude issues to the point where the locker room was getting into public mutiny territory. After the "no" comment there really wasn't anything Saleh could do - heck the fact that they are doing it without announcing the starter seems to indicate the mutiny was real and had to be reacted to.
How Wilson reacts to it is the test. Does he suck it up and work harder with the reps he gets and do everything possible to save his career or does the message never sink in? Wasn't a time to let him "work through it" - not after that - because what he needs to learn most isn't on the field at this point. Does he sulk now? Or does he support his teammates and try to understand what the message is?
Painful to move on given the cost in draft capital and effect on the cap but better to rip the band-aid off now for you guys, especially with the massive improvement on defense.
Good luck.
-QG
How Wilson reacts to it is the test. Does he suck it up and work harder with the reps he gets and do everything possible to save his career or does the message never sink in? Wasn't a time to let him "work through it" - not after that - because what he needs to learn most isn't on the field at this point. Does he sulk now? Or does he support his teammates and try to understand what the message is?
Painful to move on given the cost in draft capital and effect on the cap but better to rip the band-aid off now for you guys, especially with the massive improvement on defense.
Good luck.
-QG
Klaatu Barada Nikto
Footballguy
his cap hit makes a cut implausable. white is ufa. if they sign a qb, say jimmy g, the qb cap hit will be massive. if they are moving on they’ll have to deal him for .10 on the ty dolla sign. ugh
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
wow
GL fellas
GL fellas
Kiddnets
Footballguy
Its obviously a message as well as the benching. The comments were the straw that broke the camels back - stinking it up would demote him to #2. The comments and the attitude is what got him banished.
Give JD/Saleh this - they do not let the inmates run the asylum - Jamal traded.....Mims buried....Elijah - buried....Wilson - buried.
That being said - I think they are hoping this humbles and focuses the kid. He needs to know that this ride could end immediately. Unless White goes off and they keep winning I think Zach gets another shot before the end of the season.
Give JD/Saleh this - they do not let the inmates run the asylum - Jamal traded.....Mims buried....Elijah - buried....Wilson - buried.
That being said - I think they are hoping this humbles and focuses the kid. He needs to know that this ride could end immediately. Unless White goes off and they keep winning I think Zach gets another shot before the end of the season.
Dizzy
Footballguy
I like Mike White to snatch this job away and not look back. In limited starts last season he showed more "flashes" and ability to move the offense than Zack Wilson has to date.
One of the guest reporters on First Take this morning reporting that locker room whispers surfacing now that White had been the better QB in camp and may have had players lobbying for him prior to last week's showing by Wilson.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Let's go back to Week 5, a joyful time for Jets fans
Jets 40
MIA 17
Wilson 14/21, Hall tears Miami's defense a new ******* and steam rolls them for almost 200 yds
Nobody was bitching
Next week the Packers, Wilson only throws 18 passes, not sustainable but they win
I'll skip a coupe weeks, we all know what happens in that time period and we jump to New England and the Patriots make him look downright silly.
But then they manage to beat the Buffalo Bills and Zach Wilson wasn't much help in that game 18/25/150/TD and no picks, not pretty not good enough but he managed the game some how and despite sustaining a huge blow to the offense, this team is 6-3, as long as you don't have to see the Patriots right away, things might work out.
But you did face Belichick again and he stunk again and if you take New England out of this, Jets are 6-2
I do agree with Saleh that a change was likely needed, maybe even 1 week so he can calm down and learn from the sideline what is happening and why he's missing wide open WRs, won't even pull the trigger sometimes.
But he faces Belichick twice inside of 2 weeks? That head coach makes a lot of people look like fools.
I don't think Mike White is going to be the answer but I understand why you cannot send Wilson back out there with the way things unfolded. There are rumors we hear from within the locker room. I don't know if they make Wilson inactive or No 3 but I think in the right circumstances he could come off the bench, be the hero and perhaps seize his starting job back but he's got to earn it.
The games I highlighted seem like a distant memory right now and it's hard to digest how things fell off the track so fast but I believe Coach BB has a lot to with that.
Good luck with the Bears, their defense is terrible and their QB might not be so mobile this week if he even plays. I expect the Jets defense to take matters into their own hands. Mike White is going to see some short fields, that's my guess.
Cheers!
Jets 40
MIA 17
Wilson 14/21, Hall tears Miami's defense a new ******* and steam rolls them for almost 200 yds
Nobody was bitching
Next week the Packers, Wilson only throws 18 passes, not sustainable but they win
I'll skip a coupe weeks, we all know what happens in that time period and we jump to New England and the Patriots make him look downright silly.
But then they manage to beat the Buffalo Bills and Zach Wilson wasn't much help in that game 18/25/150/TD and no picks, not pretty not good enough but he managed the game some how and despite sustaining a huge blow to the offense, this team is 6-3, as long as you don't have to see the Patriots right away, things might work out.
But you did face Belichick again and he stunk again and if you take New England out of this, Jets are 6-2
I do agree with Saleh that a change was likely needed, maybe even 1 week so he can calm down and learn from the sideline what is happening and why he's missing wide open WRs, won't even pull the trigger sometimes.
But he faces Belichick twice inside of 2 weeks? That head coach makes a lot of people look like fools.
I don't think Mike White is going to be the answer but I understand why you cannot send Wilson back out there with the way things unfolded. There are rumors we hear from within the locker room. I don't know if they make Wilson inactive or No 3 but I think in the right circumstances he could come off the bench, be the hero and perhaps seize his starting job back but he's got to earn it.
The games I highlighted seem like a distant memory right now and it's hard to digest how things fell off the track so fast but I believe Coach BB has a lot to with that.
Good luck with the Bears, their defense is terrible and their QB might not be so mobile this week if he even plays. I expect the Jets defense to take matters into their own hands. Mike White is going to see some short fields, that's my guess.
Cheers!
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jwb
Footballguy
Yea this is good. The more I think about it, the more I feel Saleh had to do this.
Heh, It would be interesting if White came out slinging it to Wilson and Moore and scored some touchdowns - I'll allow myself to dream a little.
TLEF316
Footballguy
Obviously today was fun. Chicago is bad (and injured) and they got even more banged up during the game (Jackson another unfortunate victim of the Metlife turf monster) but it was plain to see the differences between a competent QB (even one that isn't super talented) and whatever Wilson is.
I'm not about to put White in the hall of fame(again) , but when you're capable of keeping your eyes downfield and making simple, basic throws (hitting talented recievers in stride) good things happen. He made his reads, took what was available and when nothing was available, he adjusted quickly and made accurate check dowms. Sometimes they only got 3 or 4 or yards, but that's the difference between 3rd and 2 and 3rd and 6...which makes a world of difference in the NFL.
Obviously a tougher test next with Minnesota, but I think he's up for it. He wasn't just captain check-down like he was in the Cincinnati game. He made a few nice downfield throws and hit some tight windows. And if he can keep doing that, guys like G. Wilson and Moore are more than capable of turning 15 yard crossing route into 40-60 yard touchdowns.
Also loved what we saw out of Knight. Looked like a powerful and decisive runner with some pop. Lots of twitter folks claiming the Jets were scratching James Robinson just to save a draft pick (Jax gets a 5 instead of a 6 if he hits a certain yardage) but it was clearly not the case. Knight clearly has more burst and he plays special teams (a hole that they needed to fill after swapping in Corey Davis for Jeff Smith)
Defense looked asleep early but woke up. The Simien-led Bears obviously are not a good offense, but was good to see them get it together after a rough start. Just seems like any time they need a drive ending sack in a big spot, Bryce Huff flies off that edge, humiliates a right tackle and gets the QB on the ground.
I'm not about to put White in the hall of fame(again) , but when you're capable of keeping your eyes downfield and making simple, basic throws (hitting talented recievers in stride) good things happen. He made his reads, took what was available and when nothing was available, he adjusted quickly and made accurate check dowms. Sometimes they only got 3 or 4 or yards, but that's the difference between 3rd and 2 and 3rd and 6...which makes a world of difference in the NFL.
Obviously a tougher test next with Minnesota, but I think he's up for it. He wasn't just captain check-down like he was in the Cincinnati game. He made a few nice downfield throws and hit some tight windows. And if he can keep doing that, guys like G. Wilson and Moore are more than capable of turning 15 yard crossing route into 40-60 yard touchdowns.
Also loved what we saw out of Knight. Looked like a powerful and decisive runner with some pop. Lots of twitter folks claiming the Jets were scratching James Robinson just to save a draft pick (Jax gets a 5 instead of a 6 if he hits a certain yardage) but it was clearly not the case. Knight clearly has more burst and he plays special teams (a hole that they needed to fill after swapping in Corey Davis for Jeff Smith)
Defense looked asleep early but woke up. The Simien-led Bears obviously are not a good offense, but was good to see them get it together after a rough start. Just seems like any time they need a drive ending sack in a big spot, Bryce Huff flies off that edge, humiliates a right tackle and gets the QB on the ground.
rockaction
Footballguy
Wow. Great game today. Offense looked like it did when White ran it at times last year and in the preseason. Just solid. I still don't think he's the answer to lead us to the promised land, but I'm willing to let it go for the sake of winning and all the poor suffering Jets fans who apparently can't abide another bad half year. It's understandable. But, to me, getting a six or seven seed in the playoffs when there are teams like KC and Buffalo lurking is an exercise in futility if the QB situation is still going to remain in flux and up for further evaluation in the off-season. There should be no half-measures and self-doubt when it comes to addressing the position. This was the year to figure out whether Zach Wilson was the guy or not, and we're already hearing the story about his mechanics and the "yips" and getting him straight for later usage. Let's face it -- his "straight" might not be good enough.
But I enjoyed the win and the offensive competency.
Jordan Love is going to be available next year, too. His option is up for renewal, so we might throw another quarterback into the available pool of QBs.
But I enjoyed the win and the offensive competency.
Jordan Love is going to be available next year, too. His option is up for renewal, so we might throw another quarterback into the available pool of QBs.
Kiddnets
Footballguy
I hear you rockaction - but they beat Buffalo already and match up pretty well against KC. Why not go for it!
As for yesterday - everyone is well aware the bears stink but regardless the O looked more than competent - even explosive at times. That is a change. The defense played its usual strong game and looks playoff ready.
No one is expecting White to morph into Kurt Warner - though how awesome would that be lol - but more of a Jimmy G type middle of the road starter. He has looked that so far -
Minny is next - their D got lit up by Dallas and to a lesser extent the Pats. White should be able to put up some points - if the D can play to their potential its a winnable game though very difficult.
Playing eaningful games in December is a huge step for this franchise. They are not a joke anymore. Im interested to see if Saleh keeps ZW inactive or if that was a one week punishment. I think he slowly becomes the #2 QB so they dont completely lose him.
As for yesterday - everyone is well aware the bears stink but regardless the O looked more than competent - even explosive at times. That is a change. The defense played its usual strong game and looks playoff ready.
No one is expecting White to morph into Kurt Warner - though how awesome would that be lol - but more of a Jimmy G type middle of the road starter. He has looked that so far -
Minny is next - their D got lit up by Dallas and to a lesser extent the Pats. White should be able to put up some points - if the D can play to their potential its a winnable game though very difficult.
Playing eaningful games in December is a huge step for this franchise. They are not a joke anymore. Im interested to see if Saleh keeps ZW inactive or if that was a one week punishment. I think he slowly becomes the #2 QB so they dont completely lose him.
TLEF316
Footballguy
I'll buy that some of Wilson's problems are mechanical for sure. Nobody gets to be a QB at a major college program constantly missing 8 yard passes the way he has. His feet and arm angles have gotten sloppy (probably because he's trying to be Mahomes, which very few can) and that undoubtedly has led to some misses.
But he simply doesn't see the field well enough. Doesn't move through his reads quickly/effectively. Wont pull the trigger on wide open guys. That's not mechanics. That's above the neck stuff.
Maybe some of that is confidence CAUSED by the mechanical stuff.....but I just dont know. Just dont think he's it.
NYRAGE
Footballguy
Anyone that watched the game or even highlights had to wonder how many times Wilson would have run backwards on White's drop-backs. Mininum 50% of the time. Maybe 70% of the time. I couldn't help but picture it because that's what Wilson has done all season. Run at the first sign of pressure and bail on the play.
White stood in and took the hit/pressure, stepped up into the pocket, or found the outlet pass almost every play. People can say that the Bears are a bad defense now, but there is no way in hell that Wilson could have come close to what White did for 3 reasons: 1) Wilson bails on the play as soon as there is pressure 2) Wilson can't read the defense 3)Wilson's fundamentals are so terrible that even if he spots the open guy, he can't make an accurate pass.
If White can perform like this, who cares about his draft pedigree? Besides, I don't think we need to evaluate his long-term career arc right now. What we do know is that he is better than Wilson right now. Way, way better. If Wilson was drafted like White, would we even talk about Wilson ever playing again even as a back-up? As far as evaluations go, right now he is the worst QB in the NFL. Wilson's story isn't complete yet. He can compete for the starter's job in camp next year. To throw him back out there right now is a disservice to the team and fans.
As far as coming in as a 6th or 7th seed and having to face Buffalo or KC. Well, we have already beaten Buffalo (by asking Wilson not to pass). How is Buffalo all that scary? They barely got past Detroit. We have also already beaten Miami (granted with their back-up) who is currently be the second seed and Division leader. We would be the second seed if Wilson didn't cause us to lose both games to NE. To keep throwing Wilson out there (to hope he gets better) would be same old Jets. The new Jets are good. White makes us better than Wilson. Hell, even you and Kiddnets would be better than Wilson now.
NYRAGE
Footballguy
Sometimes Huff looks like he hits the nitrous oxide button like in the Fast and Furious. Damn he's fast off the edge. Not sure how he wasn't even active those first couple of games.
TLEF316
Footballguy
The Jets haven't made the playoffs in 12 years. The gap between them and the next worst team is like 4 or 5 years. We NEED this.
At this point, its not like they're getting a top 5 pick and can get Bryce Young. First round playoff blowout loss and picking 20th is WAY better than picking 16th or 17th.
Unless White leads them to the super bowl, Wilson will get another opportunity at some point. If he cant fix himself to basic minimum viable QB standards....he was never the guy anyway.
At this point, its not like they're getting a top 5 pick and can get Bryce Young. First round playoff blowout loss and picking 20th is WAY better than picking 16th or 17th.
Unless White leads them to the super bowl, Wilson will get another opportunity at some point. If he cant fix himself to basic minimum viable QB standards....he was never the guy anyway.
Josh Johnson and Joe Flacco also flashed last year without the benefit of Garrett Wilson or Hall who is largely responsible for Zach's good game vs Miami. My take is Mike LaFleur knows how to coach offense.
wgoldsph
Footballguy
I don't understand the mindset of some of you guys regarding Wilson. What more evaluation are you hoping for? The only time the team wins with him at qb is when the game is schemed out if his hands, he's bad at everything the position requires, and he doesn't even have the "it" factor that a guy like Tim Tebow had.
White and Flacco aren't "the guys" but wasting a year on someone who isn't even nfl worthy has to be some kind of Stockholm syndrome, right?
White and Flacco aren't "the guys" but wasting a year on someone who isn't even nfl worthy has to be some kind of Stockholm syndrome, right?
jwb
Footballguy
Totally agree. Lot of fans on various forums are of the "calm down it was only Chicago" mindset, but the clear difference Mike White made was startling. As a Jet fan there is no reason not to be excited.
Zach has been Hackenberg bad so far. His pedigree is too good to totally write him off but he's definitely overwhelmed at the speed and talent of the NFL game, and it's really affected everything. He needs time. Will he ever really "get it"? Don't know but I really hope we've seen the last of him this season.
Mookie
Footballguy
I disagree. After yesterday's performance, White is the starter. Wilson might see time, but only if (1) White gets injured; and (2) Wilson works hard, fixes his mechanics and has some good practices. Otherwise, it's Flacco. The offense looked sooo much better yesterday, especially on that first drive, and there was an energy that was COMPLETELY lacking when Wilson was the starter. The ball was coming out on time and White made some great reads and accurate throws. His mechanics were spot on in the pouring rain. Sure it was the Bears, but I've seen enough - Mike White is the starter.
TLEF316
Footballguy
For this year, I would agree. Unless White's performance regresses to the point where Wilson was, or he gets hurt, I'd keep playing him.
But next Summer (again, Unless White leads them deep into the playoffs) I think you make it an open competition again. Wilson's mobility (and some would say his elite arm talent) provides upside that White MIGHT not have. So I dont see the harm in letting him compete for the job next season.
His contract makes him uncuttable and nobody is going to trade for him, so you give them the opportunity to show improvement in camp next season.
But yeah, if White keeps throwing the ball like he did yesterday, he should obviously start. And in the case of injury...at this point in the year, I'd go back to Flacco. Wilson was just so bad that there's no way I would trust him in a must-win game (which pretty much every game will be for the rest of the year if the Jets want to make the playoffs)
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Sammy B
Footballguy
I guess the ONLY thing I'd be curious to see is how ZW would respond to his benching. This is probably the first time in his career, at any level, that he was told to take a seat due to his play. But if the reports are true that his response to Saleh was "Why me? I want to play." then he just doesn't get it and that says everything the team needs to know about his character. No sense turning this season into a ZW confidence project. The pieces are in place to make some noise late in the season, have to let it happen. Just happy White played really solid yesterday, didn't feel sick on every drop back.
TLEF316
Footballguy
Mike White impresses, but Zach Wilson still should've started | Chris Simms Unbuttoned | NFL on NBC
Chris Simms praises Mike White's performance to lead the Jets past the Bears but still thinks it was the wrong decision to bench Zach Wilson in a potential "...
www.youtube.com
Chris Simms going down with the ship. I kinda respect him for it.
I mean...you want to tell me that Wilson plays BETTER against the Bears than he did against the Pats? Sure...it would be impossible not to.
But I dont see how you can claim that a guy who couldn't get 28 YARDS in the 2nd half against New England would have scored 28 POINTS against any NFL defense.
rockaction
Footballguy
That's what I'm getting at. I don't need to hear that he had the "yips" so that we're tortured for another year of makeshift quarterbacking. This is the year to make the decision and stick to it. I don't want Wilson coming back out of the shadows next year and running around in circles against pressure again.
Do it and be done with it. Make it a clean beheading if you're going to do that.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
Zach Wilson feeling like a poor man's Jeff George.
Kiddnets
Footballguy
I dont understand why so many talking heads refuse to believe that Mike White could be a franchise QB because of where he was drafted.
There are lots of examples without going the Brady route - Dak, Wilson, Kirk, Jimmy G, all are or were considered franchise QBs and were not high draft selections. Throw in solid QBs like Brunnell, Brad Johnson, Gannon, Hassleback and of course the all time poster boy Kurt Warner. While rare it does happen - I dont find it impossible that everything just seemed to click for White.
Its just as possible that he's terrible down the stretch and goes back to the scrap heap - but to say its impossible for him to be the Jets future? I disagree with that - he has the size, skills, guts and the players love him. If he goes on a legit run I definitely can see them signing him to a short term starting QB $ deal.
There are lots of examples without going the Brady route - Dak, Wilson, Kirk, Jimmy G, all are or were considered franchise QBs and were not high draft selections. Throw in solid QBs like Brunnell, Brad Johnson, Gannon, Hassleback and of course the all time poster boy Kurt Warner. While rare it does happen - I dont find it impossible that everything just seemed to click for White.
Its just as possible that he's terrible down the stretch and goes back to the scrap heap - but to say its impossible for him to be the Jets future? I disagree with that - he has the size, skills, guts and the players love him. If he goes on a legit run I definitely can see them signing him to a short term starting QB $ deal.
zamboni
Footballguy
Perhaps the Jets can pull a Josh Rosen and find a suitor that thinks the kid has the goods but just needs a change of scenery. I doubt it, but have to think JD will be exploring it in the offseason.
Kiddnets
Footballguy
Im sure he could be traded - teams are qB desperate trading for Wentz multiple times and a cooked Matt Ryan - even Darnold. Problem is Wilson has literally looked worthless. If hes dealt Id be shocked if JD could get a 3rd or better. If not just keep him as a backup and hope he flashes enough in preseason to up his value.
zamboni
Footballguy
Somehow Rosen was traded by Arizona to Miami during the 2019 draft weekend for a 2019 second-round pick and a 2020 fifth-round pick. If the Jets can get anything close to that, wheels up. Of course, what will be working against the Jets is the big influx of quality rookies this year and some solid FAs. Maybe teams in the middle of the draft that aren't in position to get one of the top QBs could have interest.
All that said, I think the most likely course of action is what you said - let him compete and if he doesn't win the job, stay as a backup.
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