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2023-24 NBA (Playoffs!) Thread: end of bench player on Knicks roster feeling self-conscious about not having crippling, season-ending injury (62 Viewers)

I typed like 5 different posts about Jokic and erased them all as they don’t do him justice.

I’m starting to consider that he’s the best player I’ve ever watched. He’s just so ****ing unique and incredible.
Yea they win the title this year (they will) people are going to have to have some conversations about where he ranks all-time.
 
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Wild to watch Rudy, a multiple times dpoy just flail around hopelessly out there against this guy.

Looked like he had no idea where he needed to be on either end of the court.

Very little basketball instincts and/or intelligence

Saw this when he was on the Jazz too

Minny wants to get a championship with this current roster, things have to change with him

It's too much on everyone else to cover the things he can't / is unwilling to do outside his limited skills
 
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A rebuttal of sorts on the Gobert narrative

Yea Gobert is a great defender but Joker is just a way better player. There’s nobody in the league who can stop him. I doubt there’s many players all-time who could stop this version of him.
 
A rebuttal of sorts on the Gobert narrative

Yea Gobert is a great defender but Joker is just a way better player. There’s nobody in the league who can stop him. I doubt there’s many players all-time who could stop this version of him.
Prime Kareem, Russell or Olajuwon, maybe Ben Wallace?
 
A rebuttal of sorts on the Gobert narrative

Yea Gobert is a great defender but Joker is just a way better player. There’s nobody in the league who can stop him. I doubt there’s many players all-time who could stop this version of him.
Prime Kareem, Russell or Olajuwon, maybe Ben Wallace?
I don’t really know honestly. Assume Russell and Wallace would be too small for him. Wallace would be interesting I guess, he was a beast.
 
A rebuttal of sorts on the Gobert narrative

Yea Gobert is a great defender but Joker is just a way better player. There’s nobody in the league who can stop him. I doubt there’s many players all-time who could stop this version of him.
Prime Kareem, Russell or Olajuwon, maybe Ben Wallace?
I don’t really know honestly. Assume Russell and Wallace would be too small for him. Wallace would be interesting I guess, he was a beast.
Ben probably too small, but Russell had a wingspan of 7'4" so maybe. Sneaky answer is prime Wemby if he can get to that level.
 
Defensively the difference between him and most of the other "Pantheon" players defensively is notable, but I think that the only players that can make an argument they had a better offensive peak than Jokic has had the last 4 years are Wilt, Kareem, Jordan, and Lebron.
Lakers 3-peat Shaq should be here.
 
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A rebuttal of sorts on the Gobert narrative

Yea Gobert is a great defender but Joker is just a way better player. There’s nobody in the league who can stop him. I doubt there’s many players all-time who could stop this version of him.
Prime Kareem, Russell or Olajuwon, maybe Ben Wallace?
I don’t really know honestly. Assume Russell and Wallace would be too small for him. Wallace would be interesting I guess, he was a beast.
Ben probably too small, but Russell had a wingspan of 7'4" so maybe. Sneaky answer is prime Wemby if he can get to that level.
Wemby could fit inside one of Jokic's thighs.
 
How in the world is this Jokic game an indictment on Gobert? Does anyone even watch the game? Who could have possibly stopped Jokic?

Jokic unleashed his full scoring potential. It was awesome and amazing and there isn’t a soul on this planet who could have done anything about it.
 
How in the world is this Jokic game an indictment on Gobert? Does anyone even watch the game? Who could have possibly stopped Jokic?

Jokic unleashed his full scoring potential. It was awesome and amazing and there isn’t a soul on this planet who could have done anything about it.

To me, it isn't

Still, Gobert is very 1 dimensional and has low basketball IQ to me

Even without this most recent game
 
Wild to watch Rudy, a multiple times dpoy just flail around hopelessly out there against this guy.

Looked like he had no idea where he needed to be on either end of the court.

Very little basketball instincts and/or intelligence

Saw this when he was on the Jazz too

Minny wants to get a championship with this current roster, things have to change with him

It's too much on everyone else to cover the things he can't / is unwilling to do outside his limited skills
This is crazy. What is everyone else doing to cover for him?
 
Wild to watch Rudy, a multiple times dpoy just flail around hopelessly out there against this guy.

Looked like he had no idea where he needed to be on either end of the court.

Very little basketball instincts and/or intelligence

Saw this when he was on the Jazz too

Minny wants to get a championship with this current roster, things have to change with him

It's too much on everyone else to cover the things he can't / is unwilling to do outside his limited skills
This is crazy. What is everyone else doing to cover for him?

Trying to win a basketball game, making good fundamental choices

Gobert's limitations are still there, from his Jazz days

This isn't a critique because of Jokic

I'm not breaking new ground here
 
Cool, well I suppose I'm the strange one who actually watched Pac 10 hoops and saw Bronny play. USC would have been better off inserting a log.

I'm sure he'll get it in the pros.
Hey man they’re simply looking for traits and athleticism. They don’t care how you did against Washington State. If they determine he doesn’t have what they need he won’t get drafted but it really doesn’t have anything to do with how he played as a 18/19 year old. They’re projecting. All kinds of college qbs who throw for thousands of yards don’t get drafted or get drafted low. I know you know this.

He is 6'1" in shoes
Sorry to be a stickler here, but this false.

How tall is he?
Measured 6'1.5" without shoes, so probably between 6'2.5"-6'3" on the court.
with the afro, 6'9"
 
Some of the takes about Gobert are funny. He's an outstanding but flawed player. Like 99.9% of the players (well, the flawed part. Some are not so outstanding). And he's improved a lot on some of the flaws.
He’s definitely flawed, Joker is exposing those flaws even more so, there is nobody who could defend this guy currently playing and he probably was the best defensive player in the league this year, which makes what Joker is doing even more amazing.
 
A rebuttal of sorts on the Gobert narrative

Yea Gobert is a great defender but Joker is just a way better player. There’s nobody in the league who can stop him. I doubt there’s many players all-time who could stop this version of him.
Prime Kareem, Russell or Olajuwon, maybe Ben Wallace?

Duncan? Admiral?
 
So as he's done during the morning after the later evening weekday games where he usually has to be in bed by halftime, Little Woz immediately woke up and came to find me to get the result of the game. This time though, instead of the usual "Did the Timberwolves win?" said with optimism, it went like this:

Little Woz: "Did the Timberwolves lose?"
Me: "Yeah buddy, unfortunately."
Little Woz: "Because of The Joker?"
Me: "Yeah, he played really good."

Little Woz starts to form some tears so I send him off to get some breakfast. He comes back a few minutes later and this exchange occurs...

Little Woz: "Daddy, will the Timberwolves win next game?"
Me: "I hope so, but the Nuggets are very good. The game is in Minnesota though so I like our chances."
Little Woz: "Oh. I think I might cheers for the Nuggets and The Joker. Can we be Nuggets fans and get new hats?"
Me (heart breaking a bit): "Well, this is part of being a sports fan. We should stick by our team even if they lose. And this time they're losing to a really good team. It's also not over. How about we cheer for the Timberwolves for now and if the Nuggets win we can cheer for them the rest of the playoffs?"
Little Woz (clearly disappointed): "Okay."

He then goes upstairs and punches his little sister and gets in trouble. He at least did so wearing his Timberwolves hat.

Rough morning in the Woz household. I just couldn't bring myself to explain to him that the teams I root for, and therefore the ones he's been rooting for, are perennial losers (Timberwolves, Vikings, Mets and Maple Leafs). I'll be honest though, I thought for a split second about trying to save him from years of pain being a Timberwolves fan, but I still have a ton of faith in Edwards going forward.
 
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How in the world is this Jokic game an indictment on Gobert? Does anyone even watch the game? Who could have possibly stopped Jokic?

Jokic unleashed his full scoring potential. It was awesome and amazing and there isn’t a soul on this planet who could have done anything about it.
The expectation is that the DPOY is supposed to be primed to perform for this kind of matchup. Jokic is just so much better.
 
Some of the takes about Gobert are funny. He's an outstanding but flawed player. Like 99.9% of the players (well, the flawed part. Some are not so outstanding). And he's improved a lot on some of the flaws.
He’s definitely flawed, Joker is exposing those flaws even more so, there is nobody who could defend this guy currently playing and he probably was the best defensive player in the league this year, which makes what Joker is doing even more amazing.
Exactly. Like show me the guy who would do a better job than Gobert...maybe Wemby or Chet eventually but both would just get bodied this year IMO. We saw AD isn't the guy. Maybe Embiid could but he'd have to play in a game against Denver for anyone to know.
 
Wild to watch Rudy, a multiple times dpoy just flail around hopelessly out there against this guy.

Looked like he had no idea where he needed to be on either end of the court.

Very little basketball instincts and/or intelligence

Saw this when he was on the Jazz too

Minny wants to get a championship with this current roster, things have to change with him

It's too much on everyone else to cover the things he can't / is unwilling to do outside his limited skills
This is crazy. What is everyone else doing to cover for him?

Trying to win a basketball game, making good fundamental choices

Gobert's limitations are still there, from his Jazz days

This isn't a critique because of Jokic

I'm not breaking new ground here
Offensively you are correct. He has terrible instincts. Defensively though he is among the best. It's just Jokic is better
 
So as he's done during the morning after the later evening weekday games where he usually has to be in bed by halftime, Little Woz immediately woke up and came to find me to get the result of the game. This time though, instead of the usual "Did the Timberwolves win?" said with optimism, it went like this:

Little Woz: "Did the Timberwolves lose?"
Me: "Yeah buddy, unfortunately."
Little Woz: "Because of The Joker?"
Me: "Yeah, he played really good."

Little Woz starts to form some tears so I send him off to get some breakfast. He comes back a few minutes later and this exchange occurs...

Little Woz: "Daddy, will the Timberwolves win next game?"
Me: "I hope so, but the Nuggets are very good. The game is in Minnesota though so I like our chances."
Little Woz: "Oh. I think I might cheers for the Nuggets and The Joker. Can we be Nuggets fans and get new hats?"
Me (heart breaking a bit): "Well, this is part of being a sports fan. We should stick by our team even if they lose. And this time they're losing to a really good team. It's also not over. How about we cheer for the Timberwolves or now and if the Nuggets win we can cheer for them the rest of the playoffs?"
Little Woz (clearly disappointed): "Okay."

He then goes upstairs and punches his little sister and gets in trouble. He at least did so wearing his Timberwolves hat.

Rough morning in the Woz household. I just couldn't bring myself to explain to him that the teams I root for, and therefore the ones he's been rooting for, are perennial losers (Timberwolves, Vikings, Mets and Maple Leafs). I'll be honest though, I thought for a split second about trying to save him from years of pain being a Timberwolves fan, but I still have a ton of faith in Edwards going forward.
A conversation that every Minnesota sports fan has had for generations upon generations. It's our birthright.
 
How in the world is this Jokic game an indictment on Gobert? Does anyone even watch the game? Who could have possibly stopped Jokic?

Jokic unleashed his full scoring potential. It was awesome and amazing and there isn’t a soul on this planet who could have done anything about it.
I disagree on one thing and agree with you on most. Agree that Jokic was masterful and in general is elite. However—allowing your opponent to account for 70+ points on insanely good efficiency without committing a single turnover is insane when you are touted as the best defensive player in the league. Anthony Davis, Jaren Jackson, Bam Adebayo would have given more resistance. The thing is- that Gobert did nothing to even make Jokic think twice. Show some physicality- take a really hard foul and let Jokic know that there is some sort of price to pay for having you defend him. I saw nothing of the sort. Just saw Jokic clowning and rag dolling him repeatedly and at will. Gobert needed to show some Charles Oakley-esque type of physicality at some point last night and it never happened. With that said- it was one game- and he has at least one more chance to step up and do better
 
A rebuttal of sorts on the Gobert narrative

Yea Gobert is a great defender but Joker is just a way better player. There’s nobody in the league who can stop him. I doubt there’s many players all-time who could stop this version of him.
Prime Kareem, Russell or Olajuwon, maybe Ben Wallace?

Duncan? Admiral?
I think Robinson would have been as good as anyone. In his prime he carried a ton of the offensive load as well, but maybe that is part of the secret. If Jokic has to work harder on his defense, then his offense will ultimately slow down a bit?

Duncan would have done as good a job as anyone at making Jokic take more difficult shots. He would have had zero chance at blocking them or shutting him down, but he would force him into jumpers and floaters as far outside as possible. However, his foot speed would have caused some trouble when put in all of the pick and roll or dribble hand-off situations the Nuggets use (similar to Gobert).
 
How in the world is this Jokic game an indictment on Gobert? Does anyone even watch the game? Who could have possibly stopped Jokic?

Jokic unleashed his full scoring potential. It was awesome and amazing and there isn’t a soul on this planet who could have done anything about it.
I disagree on one thing and agree with you on most. Agree that Jokic was masterful and in general is elite. However—allowing your opponent to account for 70+ points on insanely good efficiency without committing a single turnover is insane when you are touted as the best defensive player in the league. Anthony Davis, Jaren Jackson, Bam Adebayo would have given more resistance. The thing is- that Gobert did nothing to even make Jokic think twice. Show some physicality- take a really hard foul and let Jokic know that there is some sort of price to pay for having you defend him. I saw nothing of the sort. Just saw Jokic clowning and rag dolling him repeatedly and at will. Gobert needed to show some Charles Oakley-esque type of physicality at some point last night and it never happened. With that said- it was one game- and he has at least one more chance to step up and do better
You must have watched a different game than I did. I saw Gobert play nearly prefect defense, it's just that Jokic was better.
 
, and therefore the ones he's been rooting for, are perennial losers (Timberwolves, Vikings, Mets and Maple Leafs).
Yea I didn’t catch this. Are you mad?
No, I was a child. I'll explain.

Vikings and Timberwolves - My parents are both from Minnesota so Minnesota teams were impressed upon me as a child. I'll still root for the Twins and Wild as secondary teams.

Mets - When I was three they won the World Series so they were all over the media. I loved baseball and, being a kid, liked their colors. I recall then in preschool telling somebody I liked the Mets and they responded back negatively. I grew up near Philly so the fact that I chose a rival and it antagonized people made me enjoy it all the more. And, the Mets were pretty good in the late 80s and early 90s where baseball was my life. Plus, we lived close enough to Philly and NYC that I probably got to go to a Mets game (at either Shea or Veterans Stadium) at least once a year whereas I didn't get to go to as many Twins games.

Maple Leafs - I initially cheered for the North Stars but they moved to Dallas. I then played a bunch of NHL 94 and NHL 95 and the Maple Leafs were my team on those games (Gilmour, Potvin, Gardner, Tkachuk, etc.) so I picked them to be my team to replace the North Stars.

Finally, what can I say other than that I'm a loyal albeit masochistic guy?
 
Is there a good source for defensive statistics on how a player performs in one on one post defense matchups? I've always been under the impression that Gobert is more a team defender and not a great 1 on 1 guy on the block, based on my own anecdotal viewing history.
 
Is there a good source for defensive statistics on how a player performs in one on one post defense matchups? I've always been under the impression that Gobert is more a team defender and not a great 1 on 1 guy on the block, based on my own anecdotal viewing history.
Dan Patrick said the same thing today, and compared him to Ben Wallace, another player he felt was a good help defender but not 1-on-1 guy. He said they both deserve the DPOY awards, but that Joker was just too damn good last night.
 
Bronny measured 6’ 1 1/2” at the combine. He had always been listed as 6’4”. I rescind my halfhearted support for him as an nba player.
With a 6'7.25" wing span, a 40.5" vertical, big hands, and weighing in 210 lbs.

Guys with similar measurements drafted as 3-D types - Patrick Beverly, Gary Payton II, Donovan Mitchell, Davion Mitchell, Immanuel Quickly, Miles McBride, Marcus Smart, Gary Harris... While shorter than some of those guys by an inch, he also has a plus 6 wing span, a much better than average standing reach, and he's built like a running back.

I have no concept if he will be good or not, but he's a really big 6'1.5" with somewhere between plus and elite athleticism. If he doesn't make it in the NBA as a 3-D player, it will be because he doesn't have the 3 or the handles to survive, not his physical profile.

It doesn’t sound like you are endorsing Bronny so I don’t want my comment to sound like I am insinuating that you are but just picking your comment to state a fact:

In my opinion (which means nothing) I think it’s ridiculous that some team is going to overdraft Bronny so they can be part of the LBJ circus of playing on the same team as his son. It’s a wonderful dream, but there has not been any evidence that Bronny is a legit NBA talent player.

Maybe he doesn’t get over drafted and goes late first or in the second round. Then it doesn’t seem as bad but I would not be surprised to see him drafted in the top half of the first round or in the top ten.

Perhaps it’s a good business move for a team with potential merchandise sales, ticket sales and such?
 
I typed like 5 different posts about Jokic and erased them all as they don’t do him justice.

I’m starting to consider that he’s the best player I’ve ever watched. He’s just so ****ing unique and incredible.
Yea they win the title this year (they will) people are going to have to have some conversations about where he ranks all-time.

If he keeps up this pace he'll surpass Olajuwon. I wish we had a time machine and could see a prime Hakeem and Joker face each other with their insane footwork and Olajuwon's defensive game. Gobert leaves a lot to be desired and is being exposed by the league's best.
 

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