I think the argument would be the smaller ball is an advantage on same size rim. Would it be equivalent to giving Steph a rim that is 1 inch bigger in circumference?
As opposed to making her use a mens sized ball that she probably never uses in her life?
If people really care that much about it, let the men use a women's ball. Fun stories here, with quick context. I coached at a P5 school (I've said this before) and so saw a decent amount of one of the best women's teams in the nation.
I also went to Oklahoma, where we had a top 5-10 women's team with All-Americans, and played on the women's practice squad for a while, and dated a player for a while. Things I believe based on lived and watched experience:
1. Women can shoot as well or better than men. The ball doesn't matter that much. The 3-point line does. e.g., playing from HS line on men's ball is about the same, college line with men's ball maybe slight men's advantage, NBA line with men's ball would start to put women at a disadvantage. Not because of circumference but because of weight. Alternately, if you let both use the women's ball from any line, you immediately give the men an advantage. It seriously felt
effortless to jack the women's ball from way deep over and over.
1a. WNBA average FT% is usually around 80%, NBA is usually around 78%.
2. The average woman who is amazing at basketball is more skilled than the average man who is amazing at basketball. Period. The difference in athleticism between the best vs average WNBA player is a much smaller spread than between the best and average athleticism of NBA players. That manifests in men being able to do insane things with quite frankly modest skills.
3. That athleticism (strength and speed) is why women cannot compete with men of comparable skill (e.g., best in WNBA vs best in NBA, NCAA all americans facing off, etc) in an actual game. As a guy who could have played D-III, might have been able to walk on and never get any playing time at a mid-major, and am an average athlete at best, we absolutely whopped the women's team with some regularity in college. We were just that much bigger, faster, stronger. They were WAY more skilled. Whitney Hand and I could actually compete 1:1 in spite of my natural advantages because she was WAY better. In a 3-point contest, she would have killed me. I never lost to my girlfriend (who was not an All American) and I mostly did things like play left handed only. HORSE was competitive though (today, out of practice, I'd get annihilated in HORSE by any college playing or higher level playing woman, with any ball).
I guess what I don't understand is why this isn't fairly obvious to people, and why anyone debates it. Women are amazing at basketball. Super skilled. They also aren't men, don't jump as high or run as fast or have ability to shoot from as far, etc. That's ok. I think it's cool to see the competitions of skill where those differences can pretty decently be leveled out, and in a mixed gender pickup game of equals (not intramurals where one teams girl sucks and one teams girl is awesome, talking like 3 dudes 2 women on every team and they all know how to play) they can totally hold their own and not get picked on. There shouldn't really be any discouse on this.
There's discourse because it's only your opinion. And a minority opinion at that.
Minority opinion? It's the opinion of anyone who ever played basketball beyond PE, including the girls/women.
Hmm, I played well beyond PE and don't entirely agree with Instinctive's long post, but it's a really good post. I enjoyed reading it. Love watching WNBA hoops and every year they get better and better to the point of blowing my mind sometimes. Fundamental hoops is the most beautiful thing and the men have lost touch with it.
I know better to engage this topic again, but here I go. According to my mom, the only thing I did more than play hoops in life is sleep. It's awkward boasting about being good at a sport online, but I was good. Best shooter on a very good California HS team. Lost in the state semi-final, controversially. Four teammates got full rides. Like Instinctive, I could have played D3 ball. The coach at the D3 college I attended was frustrated with me for not playing. I knew I could never sniff pro ball or even be special at a small college, so I became a competitive partier instead. Such an idiot. I have 4 years of officiating hs boys, 3 years of assistant coaching JuCo, and 4 years of coaching hs varsity, both boys and girls. Dad was a storied coach with a Woodenesque record. Wooden is my favorite coach from any sport at any level.
To Instinctive's 2nd point:
2. The average woman who is amazing at basketball is more skilled than the average man who is amazing at basketball. Period.
Period? Come on. We have to define skilled I guess. I don't see amazing women with the handles of amazing men. Ball-handling is a skill. I don't see amazing women using incredible handles to sink contested step-back threes like amazing men. It's become an important skill. There's a few, but not many. HS boys are perfecting it by the hundreds. Passing is another skill where the men seem advanced well beyond the women. Plenty of great passers in the WNBA, but nothing like the magic we see in the NBA when things get competitive or break down in garbage time.
I would agree that fundamentals are the basic skill set of the game, and the women are developing better fundamentals. Shooting is a fundamental skill, and women up to a certain range may be surpassing men. Not sure. NBA warm ups are pretty ridiculous the way they hit everything when uncontested. WNBA not so much.
The advanced skill set beyond fundamentals is ruled by the men.
The difference in athleticism between the best vs average WNBA player is a much smaller spread than between the best and average athleticism of NBA players.
I think you're discounting the huge population of athletic freaks on NBA benches who lack the skills to earn more PT. If we don't compare genders, I agree the women are closer athletically to each other as a group, but I also think the more superior athletes among them earn the most PT. That is not the case in the NBA. A long list of highly skilled yet less athletic than their teammates get the most PT, like 2 time recent MVP Jokic. Current MVP Embiid isn't that athletic. Several Warrior bench players are more athletic than Steph. He's just the most freakishly skilled player on the team. Similar is true of many teams.
That manifests in men being able to do insane things with quite frankly modest skills.
True enough. But many also do it with incredible skill. It's the huge advantage in athleticism - size, strength, speed, hops, reactions - that makes me engage this topic. I think the last time I did, I said that the best Junior High boys team (8th graders) would whip the WNBA all-stars. I then posted a vid of what seemed the best Jr. high team that year. They were dunking all over the place and defending well-above the rim. It would be awful to watch because the athletic advantage is unfair.
I love watching NCAA women and WNBA because I relate to it as a fundamentals junkie and ex-player/coach. The women play like maybe I could have in my 20s. I joke that I could have been a dominant female player. Heck, I used to could dunk. Not many of them can. And shooting was my thing, so hey, who knows? But that joking has an ugly under-current. We're in strange days when a man can identify as a woman and sometimes compete in women's sports. It's happened in wrestling, tennis, swimming and more. If it gets to the point where the woke NBA/WNBA allow.... I'm gonna protest hard, and other than sports, I don't give a hoot how folks identify.
I think I was the first to talk about Wemby here. Maybe I'll be the first to introduce you to
13 year old Mohamed Dabone.
Maybe not. I avoid this thread because I love hoops too much for some of the negativity. I'd rather be blind to it.
