massraider
Footballguy
Talk is one thing. Getting them in place, and through the inevitable lawsuits? Years and years
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2023 College football thread - That's A Wrap (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Tom Servo
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The Commish
Footballguy
How are we determining the "development" angle exactly? When you have elite talent coming in year after year it should be more than "number of first-round picks" and such.
gump
Footballguy
Can’t locate the Athletic poll, but it was 4 & 5-star recruits…so development = NFL. Also the same kids getting the highest NIL offers.
I can think of a more devastating week than what Washington has had. Go from playing for a national championship to losing and then losing coaching staff and 20 of 22 starters and 10 from 2nd string to transfer portal or NFL. UW is going to go from good to very bad next year. Deboer saw the writing on the wall and made a great decision.
The Commish
Footballguy
Odd. Doesnt it stand to reason that the more 4 and 5 stars you get, the more you will have in the NFL? Theres a correlation vs causation issue there right?
Nice feature on Saban from his Dolphins GM and what made him great.
theathletic.com
Mueller: Being Nick Saban’s GM was far from easy, but I'm forever grateful. Here's why
"I can be hard on people," Nick told me before he made me the Dolphins' GM. I remember thinking, "How hard could it be?"
theathletic.com
SFBayDuck
Footballguy
I agree. Look at the coaches like Jonathan Smith who have teams full of 2-3 star kids that seem to always play above that. Hell I’d put DeBoer in that category. As Pate said this week, look how many wins he has with the 2nd best roster on the field, a combo of development and in-game coaching. But guys like Smith don’t put a bunch of players in the league, so a 5 star kid isn't going to Oregon State to get “developed”.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
You don't think other schools were funneling money and cheating before NIL?Trying to follow…Bama’s fanbase has been funneling $ to players illegally for years at a higher level than Tennessee and others, but now Bama’s NIL$ support is falling behind because it’s legal?
It'll be interesting to see. Most people feel Saban's been doing NIL for a long timeso I'd expect it to be heavily connected to him. But I have no doubt they'll transition quickly. Alabama of all schools knows the power of money for players. I think they'll be fine. I wouldn't say they're "way" behind. I'd think they have a transition to make.
Heard someone on a podcast today say “NIL has been around in some parts of the country for years. The difference now is that it’s gone national.”
For all the
Other schools now can funnel money. It's not so much Alabama falling behind. Others are catching up. And that narrows the gap.
gump
Footballguy
It’s not a massive gap but there are differences in results between Saban v elite recruiters like Miles for example…which could mean millions to a kid long term.
Sure. But I don't think any school did it as well as Alabama.You don't think other schools were funneling money and cheating before NIL?Trying to follow…Bama’s fanbase has been funneling $ to players illegally for years at a higher level than Tennessee and others, but now Bama’s NIL$ support is falling behind because it’s legal?
It'll be interesting to see. Most people feel Saban's been doing NIL for a long time
Heard someone on a podcast today say “NIL has been around in some parts of the country for years. The difference now is that it’s gone national.”
For all the
Other schools now can funnel money. It's not so much Alabama falling behind. Others are catching up. And that narrows the gap.
gump
Footballguy
I get it, Joe...no offense meant here, but it connects back to the lack of respect you have for College coaching vs the NFL. You're an NFL guy. You don't weight the skill and effort put in to recruiting as much as a guy who is deeper into it would. Many coaches who've done both think College is harder...you don't. And so it makes sense that you think recruiting is just about money.Sure. But I don't think any school did it as well as Alabama.You don't think other schools were funneling money and cheating before NIL?Trying to follow…Bama’s fanbase has been funneling $ to players illegally for years at a higher level than Tennessee and others, but now Bama’s NIL$ support is falling behind because it’s legal?
It'll be interesting to see. Most people feel Saban's been doing NIL for a long time
Heard someone on a podcast today say “NIL has been around in some parts of the country for years. The difference now is that it’s gone national.”
For all the
Other schools now can funnel money. It's not so much Alabama falling behind. Others are catching up. And that narrows the gap.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Clemson and UGA have been doing it since I was a kid. I used to work with a guy that was a bagman for Herschel Walker back in the day. Were they paying more than Alabama? I have no idea. Did Alabama start paying more when Saban arrived because they weren't very good before that?Sure. But I don't think any school did it as well as Alabama.You don't think other schools were funneling money and cheating before NIL?Trying to follow…Bama’s fanbase has been funneling $ to players illegally for years at a higher level than Tennessee and others, but now Bama’s NIL$ support is falling behind because it’s legal?
It'll be interesting to see. Most people feel Saban's been doing NIL for a long time
Heard someone on a podcast today say “NIL has been around in some parts of the country for years. The difference now is that it’s gone national.”
For all the
Other schools now can funnel money. It's not so much Alabama falling behind. Others are catching up. And that narrows the gap.
My belief is it's impossible to win big without paying a lot of money for players (Oregon didn't just start getting lucky in the last 10-15 years, for example) but just because you pay a lot of money doesn't mean you'll be good either (Texas A&M, for example). Paying the right guys, coaching, and all the other football stuff still matter too when you start comparing the best programs against each other.
I get it, Joe...no offense meant here, but it connects back to the lack of respect you have for College coaching vs the NFL. You're an NFL guy. You don't weight the skill and effort put in to recruiting as much as a guy who is deeper into it would. Many coaches who've done both think College is harder...you don't. And so it makes sense that you think recruiting is just about money.Sure. But I don't think any school did it as well as Alabama.You don't think other schools were funneling money and cheating before NIL?Trying to follow…Bama’s fanbase has been funneling $ to players illegally for years at a higher level than Tennessee and others, but now Bama’s NIL$ support is falling behind because it’s legal?
It'll be interesting to see. Most people feel Saban's been doing NIL for a long time
Heard someone on a podcast today say “NIL has been around in some parts of the country for years. The difference now is that it’s gone national.”
For all the
Other schools now can funnel money. It's not so much Alabama falling behind. Others are catching up. And that narrows the gap.
What in the world are you talking about? The fact I think Alabama did it better than anyone else means I have a "lack of respect you have for College coaching vs the NFL?"
I have no idea how those relate. I don't think you know much about what I think for college. Scott Sexton (Jimmy's brother) is one of my closest friends. I have a pretty good insight into how incredibly difficult coaching at the college level is.
gump
Footballguy
Sorry...but didn't we debate this in a Saban vs Belichick discussion? You thought it was laughable that Saban was being compared to Belichick...and I thought pointed to the difference in NFL vs College. If you don't feel that way, my apologies. It relates though to why you think Alabama simply paid to get the best recruits?I get it, Joe...no offense meant here, but it connects back to the lack of respect you have for College coaching vs the NFL. You're an NFL guy. You don't weight the skill and effort put in to recruiting as much as a guy who is deeper into it would. Many coaches who've done both think College is harder...you don't. And so it makes sense that you think recruiting is just about money.Sure. But I don't think any school did it as well as Alabama.You don't think other schools were funneling money and cheating before NIL?Trying to follow…Bama’s fanbase has been funneling $ to players illegally for years at a higher level than Tennessee and others, but now Bama’s NIL$ support is falling behind because it’s legal?
It'll be interesting to see. Most people feel Saban's been doing NIL for a long time
Heard someone on a podcast today say “NIL has been around in some parts of the country for years. The difference now is that it’s gone national.”
For all the
Other schools now can funnel money. It's not so much Alabama falling behind. Others are catching up. And that narrows the gap.
What in the world are you talking about? The fact I think Alabama did it better than anyone else means I have a "lack of respect you have for College coaching vs the NFL?"
I have no idea how those relate. I don't think you know much about what I think for college. Scott Sexton (Jimmy's brother) is one of my closest friends. I have a pretty good insight into how incredibly difficult coaching at the college level is.
Sorry...but didn't we debate this in a Saban vs Belichick discussion? You thought it was laughable that Saban was being compared to Belichick...and I thought pointed to the difference in NFL vs College. If you don't feel that way, my apologies. It relates though to why you think Alabama simply paid to get the best recruits?I get it, Joe...no offense meant here, but it connects back to the lack of respect you have for College coaching vs the NFL. You're an NFL guy. You don't weight the skill and effort put in to recruiting as much as a guy who is deeper into it would. Many coaches who've done both think College is harder...you don't. And so it makes sense that you think recruiting is just about money.Sure. But I don't think any school did it as well as Alabama.You don't think other schools were funneling money and cheating before NIL?Trying to follow…Bama’s fanbase has been funneling $ to players illegally for years at a higher level than Tennessee and others, but now Bama’s NIL$ support is falling behind because it’s legal?
It'll be interesting to see. Most people feel Saban's been doing NIL for a long time
Heard someone on a podcast today say “NIL has been around in some parts of the country for years. The difference now is that it’s gone national.”
For all the
Other schools now can funnel money. It's not so much Alabama falling behind. Others are catching up. And that narrows the gap.
What in the world are you talking about? The fact I think Alabama did it better than anyone else means I have a "lack of respect you have for College coaching vs the NFL?"
I have no idea how those relate. I don't think you know much about what I think for college. Scott Sexton (Jimmy's brother) is one of my closest friends. I have a pretty good insight into how incredibly difficult coaching at the college level is.
Maybe you could pull a quote on exactly what I said so I can be reminded.
I do think the even distribution of talent makes NFL coaching more difficult as all the teams should have roughly equal talent. Obviously, a few college teams, most notably Alabama, have enjoyed a massive advantage in talent over the years. You're not disputing that are you?
On the flip side, recruiting and now NIL are huge challenges in college that of course NFL coaches don't have to worry about and the NFL job is much easier in that respect.
Clemson and UGA have been doing it since I was a kid. I used to work with a guy that was a bagman for Herschel Walker back in the day. Were they paying more than Alabama? I have no idea. Did Alabama start paying more when Saban arrived because they weren't very good before that?Sure. But I don't think any school did it as well as Alabama.You don't think other schools were funneling money and cheating before NIL?Trying to follow…Bama’s fanbase has been funneling $ to players illegally for years at a higher level than Tennessee and others, but now Bama’s NIL$ support is falling behind because it’s legal?
It'll be interesting to see. Most people feel Saban's been doing NIL for a long time
Heard someone on a podcast today say “NIL has been around in some parts of the country for years. The difference now is that it’s gone national.”
For all the
Other schools now can funnel money. It's not so much Alabama falling behind. Others are catching up. And that narrows the gap.
My belief is it's impossible to win big without paying a lot of money for players (Oregon didn't just start getting lucky in the last 10-15 years, for example) but just because you pay a lot of money doesn't mean you'll be good either (Texas A&M, for example). Paying the right guys, coaching, and all the other football stuff still matter too when you start comparing the best programs against each other.
Absolutely. How you spend the money is a huge factor. Texas A&M showed that. The Yankees and Red Sox sometimes demonstrate that as well.
gump
Footballguy
Of course not...but that's the crux...I think (and many coaches who have done both leagues think) that acquiring and maintaining (ignoring developing) that talent is the part of process being drastically under-appreciated. Recruiting is really hard...and not a good fit for every elite coach.
Capella
Footballguy
Seahawks lost a playoff spot and their legend coach too. Rough week in Seattle. Probably raining too.
Capella
Footballguy
I love both but the NFL is infinitely harder. Come on man. A guy at a legendary place has an excellent shot of building a power due to the built in advantages. Look at Bama taking Washington’s coach. That wouldn’t happen in the NFL. Everything in the NFL is even.I get it, Joe...no offense meant here, but it connects back to the lack of respect you have for College coaching vs the NFL. You're an NFL guy. You don't weight the skill and effort put in to recruiting as much as a guy who is deeper into it would. Many coaches who've done both think College is harder...you don't. And so it makes sense that you think recruiting is just about money.Sure. But I don't think any school did it as well as Alabama.You don't think other schools were funneling money and cheating before NIL?Trying to follow…Bama’s fanbase has been funneling $ to players illegally for years at a higher level than Tennessee and others, but now Bama’s NIL$ support is falling behind because it’s legal?
It'll be interesting to see. Most people feel Saban's been doing NIL for a long time
Heard someone on a podcast today say “NIL has been around in some parts of the country for years. The difference now is that it’s gone national.”
For all the
Other schools now can funnel money. It's not so much Alabama falling behind. Others are catching up. And that narrows the gap.
Capella
Footballguy
Lol maybe you are thinking of me because there is no debate between the two. The fact Saban went to the nfl and flopped is all I need to know. I love college ball but don’t respect it anywhere near as much as nfl.Sorry...but didn't we debate this in a Saban vs Belichick discussion? You thought it was laughable that Saban was being compared to Belichick...and I thought pointed to the difference in NFL vs College. If you don't feel that way, my apologies. It relates though to why you think Alabama simply paid to get the best recruits?I get it, Joe...no offense meant here, but it connects back to the lack of respect you have for College coaching vs the NFL. You're an NFL guy. You don't weight the skill and effort put in to recruiting as much as a guy who is deeper into it would. Many coaches who've done both think College is harder...you don't. And so it makes sense that you think recruiting is just about money.Sure. But I don't think any school did it as well as Alabama.You don't think other schools were funneling money and cheating before NIL?Trying to follow…Bama’s fanbase has been funneling $ to players illegally for years at a higher level than Tennessee and others, but now Bama’s NIL$ support is falling behind because it’s legal?
It'll be interesting to see. Most people feel Saban's been doing NIL for a long time
Heard someone on a podcast today say “NIL has been around in some parts of the country for years. The difference now is that it’s gone national.”
For all the
Other schools now can funnel money. It's not so much Alabama falling behind. Others are catching up. And that narrows the gap.
What in the world are you talking about? The fact I think Alabama did it better than anyone else means I have a "lack of respect you have for College coaching vs the NFL?"
I have no idea how those relate. I don't think you know much about what I think for college. Scott Sexton (Jimmy's brother) is one of my closest friends. I have a pretty good insight into how incredibly difficult coaching at the college level is.
gump
Footballguy
I know coaches (one neighbor in particular who coached under Gibbs and at UF and AU)...and we had another longtime football poster (the guy from Buffalo?) who knew coaches...who've said College is harder.I love both but the NFL is infinitely harder. Come on man. A guy at a legendary place has an excellent shot of building a power due to the built in advantages. Look at Bama taking Washington’s coach. That wouldn’t happen in the NFL. Everything in the NFL is even.I get it, Joe...no offense meant here, but it connects back to the lack of respect you have for College coaching vs the NFL. You're an NFL guy. You don't weight the skill and effort put in to recruiting as much as a guy who is deeper into it would. Many coaches who've done both think College is harder...you don't. And so it makes sense that you think recruiting is just about money.Sure. But I don't think any school did it as well as Alabama.You don't think other schools were funneling money and cheating before NIL?Trying to follow…Bama’s fanbase has been funneling $ to players illegally for years at a higher level than Tennessee and others, but now Bama’s NIL$ support is falling behind because it’s legal?
It'll be interesting to see. Most people feel Saban's been doing NIL for a long time
Heard someone on a podcast today say “NIL has been around in some parts of the country for years. The difference now is that it’s gone national.”
For all the
Other schools now can funnel money. It's not so much Alabama falling behind. Others are catching up. And that narrows the gap.
I don't think there is a right answer...depends on your strengths and priorities.
Last edited:
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I love both but the NFL is infinitely harder. Come on man. A guy at a legendary place has an excellent shot of building a power due to the built in advantages. Look at Bama taking Washington’s coach. That wouldn’t happen in the NFL. Everything in the NFL is even.I get it, Joe...no offense meant here, but it connects back to the lack of respect you have for College coaching vs the NFL. You're an NFL guy. You don't weight the skill and effort put in to recruiting as much as a guy who is deeper into it would. Many coaches who've done both think College is harder...you don't. And so it makes sense that you think recruiting is just about money.Sure. But I don't think any school did it as well as Alabama.You don't think other schools were funneling money and cheating before NIL?Trying to follow…Bama’s fanbase has been funneling $ to players illegally for years at a higher level than Tennessee and others, but now Bama’s NIL$ support is falling behind because it’s legal?
It'll be interesting to see. Most people feel Saban's been doing NIL for a long time
Heard someone on a podcast today say “NIL has been around in some parts of the country for years. The difference now is that it’s gone national.”
For all the
Other schools now can funnel money. It's not so much Alabama falling behind. Others are catching up. And that narrows the gap.
I’d say winning in the NFL is harder but being the head coach of the top tier college programs is a harder job on a person. All the recruiting and being a baby sitter can’t be fun. Just MO.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Granted if we are saying harder because there’s only 32 jobs and it’s really hard to keep them then sure - seems like maybe arguing different things though.
The Commish
Footballguy
Sorry...not following what this has to do with player development and how one determines who's "better" than another. Seems like a really subjective thing with so many variables it is almost all based on anecdotes when people are discussing it.
I suppose some people under appreciate the recruiting and keeping talent. Certainly I'm not one of them. I've long said that's one of the toughest aspects of the job. And it's way tougher now than it's ever been.
The Commish
Footballguy
Keeping talent in CFB wasnt a problem until just recently though.
gump
Footballguy
Kids/parents/agents get it…it impacts recruiting…it’s why superstar high school kids wait their turn…and it’s what puts it all together and separates the great coaches.
The Commish
Footballguy
Sorry GB. I have no idea what youre talking about at this point. We are far far off from where this started it seems.
massraider
Footballguy
Cameron Ward backs out of the draft, and transfers to Miami
mr. furley
Footballguy
Phil Elliott
Footballguy
If Miami would have cleared Brees (shoulder) to be QB, Saban would probably have stayed in the NFL.
SFBayDuck
Footballguy
Curious what his NFL draft feedback was, because he just chose to play for the anti-QB-whisperer.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
I get it, Joe...no offense meant here, but it connects back to the lack of respect you have for College coaching vs the NFL. You're an NFL guy. You don't weight the skill and effort put in to recruiting as much as a guy who is deeper into it would. Many coaches who've done both think College is harder...you don't. And so it makes sense that you think recruiting is just about money.Sure. But I don't think any school did it as well as Alabama.You don't think other schools were funneling money and cheating before NIL?Trying to follow…Bama’s fanbase has been funneling $ to players illegally for years at a higher level than Tennessee and others, but now Bama’s NIL$ support is falling behind because it’s legal?
It'll be interesting to see. Most people feel Saban's been doing NIL for a long time
Heard someone on a podcast today say “NIL has been around in some parts of the country for years. The difference now is that it’s gone national.”
For all the
Other schools now can funnel money. It's not so much Alabama falling behind. Others are catching up. And that narrows the gap.
What in the world are you talking about? The fact I think Alabama did it better than anyone else means I have a "lack of respect you have for College coaching vs the NFL?"
I have no idea how those relate. I don't think you know much about what I think for college. Scott Sexton (Jimmy's brother) is one of my closest friends. I have a pretty good insight into how incredibly difficult coaching at the college level is.
Coaching in college and the NFL is difficult. I have all the respect for Saban and the machine he built but college you get your pick of talent. That makes the NFL much tougher.
Saban had a top 5 recruiting class every year at Bama, many times #1 or #2. That would like an NFL team getting 10 first and second round picks every year in the draft to reload. There is no doubt Saban is a good coach, but there are many good coaches out there, who work just as hard but never get a chance to coach a loaded team every season. Having a top class makes it a little easier. Right now there are 57 Bama players in the NFL. The most out of any college.
If the NCAA had not allowed the transfer portal or NIL there is no doubt Saban would have coached till he dropped. Saban started getting disgruntled when he started losing players to transfers. When a Bama starter got hurt he just plugged in another 4-5 star player who was on the bench. Now those guys transfer.
I watched a few Bama games this season and Nick did not look the same, the fire was gone. In the Michigan game there was no ranting or raving on the sidelines, just standing there calm..that is not how Saban coaches a big game.
I heard an interview with Saban who said when he was recruiting players last couple of seasons he was asked "Are you going to be here for the next 4 years, he would reply. "The question should be are you going to be here the next 4 years?
Anyway I hate when a sport loses an icon like Saban. I used to want Bama to lose, only because they hade so much success. Now I will miss seeing him and hearing his gruff interviews with the press.
fasteddie_21
2006 NM Poker Champ
Jedd Fisch to Washington. That’s as good as the could have gotten. Boo.
fasteddie_21
2006 NM Poker Champ
The Nick Saban retirement moves have finally reverberated down to the Group of 5 now. Man is next year gonna be a whole different world!
The Commish
Footballguy
Dont know what you mean specifically, but a lot of change was coming regardless of what Saban did.
Phil Elliott
Footballguy
Oregon St WR Bolden transferring to Texas. Bama WR Bond also recently announced he is transferring to Texas.
fasteddie_21
2006 NM Poker Champ
-OZ-
Footballguy
There is no real debate. They’re different And need different skill sets. The guys who have done both very well are exceptional. Harbaugh and Carroll deserve a little extra credit for making it work at both levels.
-OZ-
Footballguy
Conveniently, that’s exactly what was pushed after bama lost to Michigan. Maybe they knew about saban. More likely they just knew they needed to improve it to stay competitive.
Guessing he goes to Georgia and the rich get richer. He is from there and his position coach just went there.
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