2023 Las Vegas Raiders - RIP Jack - one of the greatest Super Bowl moments ever (2 Viewers)

[Bruno2]

No long term deal for Jacobs.

Best case scenario I guess now he sits out training camp and signs the tag and is “ready” for week 1?

 

[massraider]

Good.

 

[massraider]

I mean, it's a bummer RBs are worth what they are worth, but we trying to spend cap wisely over here.

 

[DocHolliday]

Todays the day for Jacob’s. Barkley, cook and jacobs. Those are some bIG names. I think the owners call their bluffs. Rbs just dont hold the power anymore.

I have a gut feeling Jacobs will get a decent contract. Only because this team is in transition at the QB position. If they’re going to establish any identity on offense, it has to start at the Oline and RB.

Jacobs is a great RB but I don’t see the point of keeping him. The Raiders are not a playoff caliber team with or without Jacobs. That is all you need to know when deciding Jacobs future with LV. Let him walk. Trade Adams and rebuild the team so the talent is there in 2-3 years to be competitive.

Teams can turn around a lot faster than 2-3 years in today's NFL.

That being said if they lost 17 and landed Caleb Williams or Drake Maye I wouldn't complain. I would also hope Williams/Maye would have Davante Adams to throw the ball to and Jacobs in the backfield.

Highly likely Davonte is not the dominant player he was last year when the Raiders possibly have a good QB again in two years. I guess we can hope for miracles and Davonte doesn’t lose a step and the Raiders draft a QB that plays like a top 10 QB as a rookie.

 

[DocHolliday]

I mean, it's a bummer RBs are worth what they are worth, but we trying to spend cap wisely over here.

It is a bummer but it is a business.

 

[ZADO]

So heres a little side story involving Madd Maxx Crosby (and no my cousin has nothing to do with it so i know its reliable }

I have this tattoo guy i became friends on FB and hes a great guy. He noticed a while back that im a big Raiders fan and proceeded to tell me he tattooed Crosby's neck , it was a tribute to Crosbys sobriety . The tat guys name is Milk Tatz .
Milk Tatz just inboxed me asking if i wanted a signed jersey he got from Maxx and had framed , he is giving it to me , shipping it to my address , of course i emphatically said yes .

I asked why he is giving it away he said he had a falling out with Maxx and its either give the shirt to a Raiders fan, or he uses it to start a bon fire . Now i do know that Milk recently left the Boston area and moved to Las Vegas to open a tattoo shop out there, then abruptly left Vegas saying things didnt work out and moved back to Boston. Not sure if it was a business move involving Maxx but something happened to upset Milk tatz .

Ill ask him what happened after i get the shirt , dont want to risk being nosey and pissing him off right now .

Crosby getting inked by Milk

 

[Bruno2]

I mean, it's a bummer RBs are worth what they are worth, but we trying to spend cap wisely over here.

It is a bummer but it is a business.

Yeah but is it good business? It’s about allocation of resources. The Raiders had no problem giving Waller and Renfrow extensions. And they had no problem signing Jones to an outlandish contact for a player his age. But they’re going to haggle over a couple million when dealing with their homegrown 25 year old RB who led the league in rushing? What kind of message is this sending to the other players? I get it, RBs age like milk. But Jacobs has enough in the tank for a 2 or 3 year contract. And your new fragile QB needs a running game to be successful and stay upright. I just don’t agree with direction the team is going. I’m with Davante.

 

[RaiderBones]

Todays the day for Jacob’s. Barkley, cook and jacobs. Those are some bIG names. I think the owners call their bluffs. Rbs just dont hold the power anymore.

I have a gut feeling Jacobs will get a decent contract. Only because this team is in transition at the QB position. If they’re going to establish any identity on offense, it has to start at the Oline and RB.

Jacobs is a great RB but I don’t see the point of keeping him. The Raiders are not a playoff caliber team with or without Jacobs. That is all you need to know when deciding Jacobs future with LV. Let him walk. Trade Adams and rebuild the team so the talent is there in 2-3 years to be competitive.

Teams can turn around a lot faster than 2-3 years in today's NFL.

That being said if they lost 17 and landed Caleb Williams or Drake Maye I wouldn't complain. I would also hope Williams/Maye would have Davante Adams to throw the ball to and Jacobs in the backfield.

Highly likely Davonte is not the dominant player he was last year when the Raiders possibly have a good QB again in two years. I guess we can hope for miracles and Davonte doesn’t lose a step and the Raiders draft a QB that plays like a top 10 QB as a rookie.

The new #4!!!!

 

[Chadstroma]

No long term deal for Jacobs.

Best case scenario I guess now he sits out training camp and signs the tag and is “ready” for week 1?

Pretty much

 

[Chadstroma]

So heres a little side story involving Madd Maxx Crosby (and no my cousin has nothing to do with it so i know its reliable }

I have this tattoo guy i became friends on FB and hes a great guy. He noticed a while back that im a big Raiders fan and proceeded to tell me he tattooed Crosby's neck , it was a tribute to Crosbys sobriety . The tat guys name is Milk Tatz .
Milk Tatz just inboxed me asking if i wanted a signed jersey he got from Maxx and had framed , he is giving it to me , shipping it to my address , of course i emphatically said yes .

I asked why he is giving it away he said he had a falling out with Maxx and its either give the shirt to a Raiders fan, or he uses it to start a bon fire . Now i do know that Milk recently left the Boston area and moved to Las Vegas to open a tattoo shop out there, then abruptly left Vegas saying things didnt work out and moved back to Boston. Not sure if it was a business move involving Maxx but something happened to upset Milk tatz .

Ill ask him what happened after i get the shirt , dont want to risk being nosey and pissing him off right now .

Crosby getting inked by Milk

Well.... you made out on that whole deal.

 

[ZADO]

So heres a little side story involving Madd Maxx Crosby (and no my cousin has nothing to do with it so i know its reliable }

I have this tattoo guy i became friends on FB and hes a great guy. He noticed a while back that im a big Raiders fan and proceeded to tell me he tattooed Crosby's neck , it was a tribute to Crosbys sobriety . The tat guys name is Milk Tatz .
Milk Tatz just inboxed me asking if i wanted a signed jersey he got from Maxx and had framed , he is giving it to me , shipping it to my address , of course i emphatically said yes .

I asked why he is giving it away he said he had a falling out with Maxx and its either give the shirt to a Raiders fan, or he uses it to start a bon fire . Now i do know that Milk recently left the Boston area and moved to Las Vegas to open a tattoo shop out there, then abruptly left Vegas saying things didnt work out and moved back to Boston. Not sure if it was a business move involving Maxx but something happened to upset Milk tatz .

Ill ask him what happened after i get the shirt , dont want to risk being nosey and pissing him off right now .

Crosby getting inked by Milk

Well.... you made out on that whole deal.

agreed

 

[DocHolliday]

I mean, it's a bummer RBs are worth what they are worth, but we trying to spend cap wisely over here.

It is a bummer but it is a business.

Yeah but is it good business? It’s about allocation of resources. The Raiders had no problem giving Waller and Renfrow extensions. And they had no problem signing Jones to an outlandish contact for a player his age. But they’re going to haggle over a couple million when dealing with their homegrown 25 year old RB who led the league in rushing? What kind of message is this sending to the other players? I get it, RBs age like milk. But Jacobs has enough in the tank for a 2 or 3 year contract. And your new fragile QB needs a running game to be successful and stay upright. I just don’t agree with direction the team is going. I’m with Davante.

This is the new Raiders. I don’t think I like the direction of the team but I’m tired of the horrible personnel management of the old Raiders.

 

[joey]

This is the new Raiders. I don’t think I like the direction of the team but I’m tired of the horrible personnel management of the old Raiders.

This is the new Raiders. I’m tired.

 

[Bruno2]

This is the new Raiders. I don’t think I like the direction of the team but I’m tired of the horrible personnel management of the old Raiders.

This is the new Raiders. I’m tired.

The new Raiders are being run 100% like a business. When you treat people like numbers on a spreadsheet you lose all sense of family and community. Jacobs is more than a RB to this organization. He was a team captain and a leader. Everyone is replaceable with the new Raiders, just cogs in the machine. There is absolutely nothing to get excited about as we edge closer to training camp. It’s a shame what is happening to this once proud organization.

 

[ZADO]

This is the new Raiders. I don’t think I like the direction of the team but I’m tired of the horrible personnel management of the old Raiders.

This is the new Raiders. I’m tired.

The new Raiders are being run 100% like a business. When you treat people like numbers on a spreadsheet you lose all sense of family and community. Jacobs is more than a RB to this organization. He was a team captain and a leader. Everyone is replaceable with the new Raiders, just cogs in the machine. There is absolutely nothing to get excited about as we edge closer to training camp. It’s a shame what is happening to this once proud organization.

Thats the way they run it in New England and it works , just do your job .

Clearly whatever the Raiders have been doing hasnt worked in decades .

 

[Chaka]

It’s a shame what is happening to this once proud organization.

This organization has not been "proud" for over 20 years.

This dysfunction didn't start with Mark. Al was the conductor of this #### show for a decade before Mark took over.

Heck, I would contend this #### show started when Al did Marcus dirty. That's when the notion of "family" started to go out the window.

I am not excited about the 2023 Raiders but to declare this team, in year two of a new coach/GM combo, to be part of the "shame" of not being "proud" is premature.

Things were embarrassing for a long time before this new regime, we can't turn around and dismiss what is happening now simply because it's different than what was before.

Before sucked, Now is unknown.

Given the choice I'll take unknown.

 

[Bruno2]

It’s a shame what is happening to this once proud organization.

This organization has not been "proud" for over 20 years.

This dysfunction didn't start with Mark. Al was the conductor of this #### show for a decade before Mark took over.

Heck, I would contend this #### show started when Al did Marcus dirty. That's when the notion of "family" started to go out the window.

I am not excited about the 2023 Raiders but to declare this team, in year two of a new coach/GM combo, to be part of the "shame" of not being "proud" is premature.

Things were embarrassing for a long time before this new regime, we can't turn around and dismiss what is happening now simply because it's different than what was before.

Before sucked, Now is unknown.

Given the choice I'll take unknown.

I know…. Just having a particularly pessimistic view this morning. Al Davis began the dysfunction long ago, I know this all too well. I just don’t like not knowing anything. We could go into the season with Hoyer/O’Connell at QB, White and Brown at RB and Mayer at TE. It’s a full blown rebuild again….

 

[Bruno2]

This is the new Raiders. I don’t think I like the direction of the team but I’m tired of the horrible personnel management of the old Raiders.

This is the new Raiders. I’m tired.

The new Raiders are being run 100% like a business. When you treat people like numbers on a spreadsheet you lose all sense of family and community. Jacobs is more than a RB to this organization. He was a team captain and a leader. Everyone is replaceable with the new Raiders, just cogs in the machine. There is absolutely nothing to get excited about as we edge closer to training camp. It’s a shame what is happening to this once proud organization.

Thats the way they run it in New England and it works , just do your job .

Clearly whatever the Raiders have been doing hasnt worked in decades .

The Patriot Way hasn’t done squat since Tom Brady left. You still need an elite QB in todays NFL and if you don’t have one, you need a running game and tough defense. As it stands now, the Raiders don’t have any of those things.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

It’s a shame what is happening to this once proud organization.

This organization has not been "proud" for over 20 years.

This dysfunction didn't start with Mark. Al was the conductor of this #### show for a decade before Mark took over.

Heck, I would contend this #### show started when Al did Marcus dirty. That's when the notion of "family" started to go out the window.

I am not excited about the 2023 Raiders but to declare this team, in year two of a new coach/GM combo, to be part of the "shame" of not being "proud" is premature.

Things were embarrassing for a long time before this new regime, we can't turn around and dismiss what is happening now simply because it's different than what was before.

Before sucked, Now is unknown.

Given the choice I'll take unknown.

I know…. Just having a particularly pessimistic view this morning. Al Davis began the dysfunction long ago, I know this all too well. I just don’t like not knowing anything. We could go into the season with Hoyer/O’Connell at QB, White and Brown at RB and Mayer at TE. It’s a full blown rebuild again….

Again? They’ve always tried to retool. It’s been a DISASTER for 20+ years. Let’s do something different.

 

[Chaka]

It’s a shame what is happening to this once proud organization.

This organization has not been "proud" for over 20 years.

This dysfunction didn't start with Mark. Al was the conductor of this #### show for a decade before Mark took over.

Heck, I would contend this #### show started when Al did Marcus dirty. That's when the notion of "family" started to go out the window.

I am not excited about the 2023 Raiders but to declare this team, in year two of a new coach/GM combo, to be part of the "shame" of not being "proud" is premature.

Things were embarrassing for a long time before this new regime, we can't turn around and dismiss what is happening now simply because it's different than what was before.

Before sucked, Now is unknown.

Given the choice I'll take unknown.

I know…. Just having a particularly pessimistic view this morning. Al Davis began the dysfunction long ago, I know this all too well. I just don’t like not knowing anything. We could go into the season with Hoyer/O’Connell at QB, White and Brown at RB and Mayer at TE. It’s a full blown rebuild again….

The rebuild has been going on since 2002.

 

[Chaka]

You still need an elite QB in todays NFL...

I think everyone in here probably knows my stance on this one.

Hoyer/O'Connell + White/Brown + suspect defense = Franchise QB

 

[Bruno2]

It’s a shame what is happening to this once proud organization.

This organization has not been "proud" for over 20 years.

This dysfunction didn't start with Mark. Al was the conductor of this #### show for a decade before Mark took over.

Heck, I would contend this #### show started when Al did Marcus dirty. That's when the notion of "family" started to go out the window.

I am not excited about the 2023 Raiders but to declare this team, in year two of a new coach/GM combo, to be part of the "shame" of not being "proud" is premature.

Things were embarrassing for a long time before this new regime, we can't turn around and dismiss what is happening now simply because it's different than what was before.

Before sucked, Now is unknown.

Given the choice I'll take unknown.

I know…. Just having a particularly pessimistic view this morning. Al Davis began the dysfunction long ago, I know this all too well. I just don’t like not knowing anything. We could go into the season with Hoyer/O’Connell at QB, White and Brown at RB and Mayer at TE. It’s a full blown rebuild again….

The rebuild has been going on since 2002.

To quote Metallica, “Sad But True”.

 

[Bruno2]

You still need an elite QB in todays NFL...

I think everyone in here probably knows my stance on this one.

Hoyer/O'Connell + White/Brown + suspect defense = Franchise QB

I’ve finally resigned myself to this outcome as well.

 

[Chaka]

You still need an elite QB in todays NFL...

I think everyone in here probably knows my stance on this one.

Hoyer/O'Connell + White/Brown + suspect defense = Franchise QB

I’ve finally resigned myself to this outcome as well.

Resigned? I'm hoping for it!

I don't honestly want them to tank on purpose, and I don't think any college QB is a mortal lock for NFL stardom but the Raiders haven't had anything even approximating a true, elite franchise QB since Rich Gannon. I love Carr, he flashed some of that potential but he maxed out well below elite QB. They need to take a swing for one and both Williams & Maye really look like they fit the bill.

 

[ZADO]

Uh oh.........

JOSH JACOBSRB, LAS VEGAS RAIDERS
View attachment 3587

Raiders GM Dave Ziegler said RB Josh Jacobs has not signed his franchise tag and will not participate in the voluntary offseason program.​

Jacobs is not allowed to participate in the voluntary offseason program until he signs his franchise tag or the two sides agree on a long-term contract. He previously said he was willing to play on the franchise tag but only if the Raiders added extra talent around him. The team has since added Jakobi Meyers. Ziegler said they are working through "that situation" with Jacobs but didn't seem concerned by the matter. For now, we expect Jacobs to play out the 2023 season on the tag and hit the open market next offseason.

Stop. at the moment, this is a non story.

and now ?

10 days later? still a non story.

still a non story?

Its a story and its a crappy story , pay the man.

Does he play or sit out the year?

The Raiders bungled this. They could have had him on the fifth year option. Instead, they declined it before tagging him. Maybe they thought someone out there was willing to part with a couple of 1st RND picks for tagged player? Indecision at the fifth year option deadline cost them $3-4mil.

 

[LawFitz]

No idea what the Raiders offered, but I would've offered him a yr to yr setup at premium dollars - let's say $15 MM this year and then re-tag and negotiate again next year - or something less per year with extended guarantees through a 2nd or even 3rd yr at something like $12 MM per. Playing hardball with a heart and soul player in the locker room and on field is foolish. But if they gave him a strong offer and he rebuked for Kamara or CMC levels, then it's Josh's bad. Regardless of who's at fault, it sux it has come to this with one of the Raiders very very few elite players. Sets up for an awkward finish to his Raider career, which we've seen way too many times now with past greats.

 

[Chadstroma]

This is the new Raiders. I don’t think I like the direction of the team but I’m tired of the horrible personnel management of the old Raiders.

This is the new Raiders. I’m tired.

The new Raiders are being run 100% like a business. When you treat people like numbers on a spreadsheet you lose all sense of family and community. Jacobs is more than a RB to this organization. He was a team captain and a leader. Everyone is replaceable with the new Raiders, just cogs in the machine. There is absolutely nothing to get excited about as we edge closer to training camp. It’s a shame what is happening to this once proud organization.

Thats the way they run it in New England and it works , just do your job .

Clearly whatever the Raiders have been doing hasnt worked in decades .

Well... it worked when they had the greatest QB there for a couple of decades.... so far without.... not so much. It may be possible that the "Patriot Way" was "The TB Coattails Way"

 

[Chaka]

This is the new Raiders. I don’t think I like the direction of the team but I’m tired of the horrible personnel management of the old Raiders.

This is the new Raiders. I’m tired.

The new Raiders are being run 100% like a business. When you treat people like numbers on a spreadsheet you lose all sense of family and community. Jacobs is more than a RB to this organization. He was a team captain and a leader. Everyone is replaceable with the new Raiders, just cogs in the machine. There is absolutely nothing to get excited about as we edge closer to training camp. It’s a shame what is happening to this once proud organization.

Thats the way they run it in New England and it works , just do your job .

Clearly whatever the Raiders have been doing hasnt worked in decades .

Well... it worked when they had the greatest QB there for a couple of decades.... so far without.... not so much. It may be possible that the "Patriot Way" was "The TB Coattails Way"

That isn't exactly fair. The Tom Brady of his first seven seasons, when they won three Lombardi's, was not the same guy that he became from season eight on. From season eight on his COMP% went up 3.5%, his TD% went up by a full point and his INT% went down by the same.

I think it is absolutely fair to say that the latter Brady absolutely allowed Belichick to slowly grow complacent with the notion of his own genius by masking many deficiencies. That has come home to roost with the current Pats (probably). Even then the Patriots Super Bowl winning teams had the #6, 1, 2, 8, 1 & 7 scoring defense.

I also think we shouldn't discount the impact losing McDaniels had on the Patriots offense.

 

[RaiderBones]

It’s a shame what is happening to this once proud organization.

This organization has not been "proud" for over 20 years.

This dysfunction didn't start with Mark. Al was the conductor of this #### show for a decade before Mark took over.

Heck, I would contend this #### show started when Al did Marcus dirty. That's when the notion of "family" started to go out the window.

I am not excited about the 2023 Raiders but to declare this team, in year two of a new coach/GM combo, to be part of the "shame" of not being "proud" is premature.

Things were embarrassing for a long time before this new regime, we can't turn around and dismiss what is happening now simply because it's different than what was before.

Before sucked, Now is unknown.

Given the choice I'll take unknown.

I know…. Just having a particularly pessimistic view this morning. Al Davis began the dysfunction long ago, I know this all too well. I just don’t like not knowing anything. We could go into the season with Hoyer/O’Connell at QB, White and Brown at RB and Mayer at TE. It’s a full blown rebuild again….

This shouldn't be a surprise after Carr was benched last year and is it technically a rebuild on the defense if it was bad to begin with????

 

[RaiderBones]

No idea what the Raiders offered, but I would've offered him a yr to yr setup at premium dollars - let's say $15 MM this year and then re-tag and negotiate again next year - or something less per year with extended guarantees through a 2nd or even 3rd yr at something like $12 MM per. Playing hardball with a heart and soul player in the locker room and on field is foolish. But if they gave him a strong offer and he rebuked for Kamara or CMC levels, then it's Josh's bad. Regardless of who's at fault, it sux it has come to this with one of the Raiders very very few elite players. Sets up for an awkward finish to his Raider career, which we've seen way too many times now with past greats.

From what I heard the Raiders were willing to pay Jacobs slightly above current market value for a RB, but they were offering a short contract and Jacobs wanted more years and guarantees. He's betting on himself at this point.

 

[Chadstroma]

This is the new Raiders. I don’t think I like the direction of the team but I’m tired of the horrible personnel management of the old Raiders.

This is the new Raiders. I’m tired.

The new Raiders are being run 100% like a business. When you treat people like numbers on a spreadsheet you lose all sense of family and community. Jacobs is more than a RB to this organization. He was a team captain and a leader. Everyone is replaceable with the new Raiders, just cogs in the machine. There is absolutely nothing to get excited about as we edge closer to training camp. It’s a shame what is happening to this once proud organization.

Thats the way they run it in New England and it works , just do your job .

Clearly whatever the Raiders have been doing hasnt worked in decades .

Well... it worked when they had the greatest QB there for a couple of decades.... so far without.... not so much. It may be possible that the "Patriot Way" was "The TB Coattails Way"

That isn't exactly fair. The Tom Brady of his first seven seasons, when they won three Lombardi's, was not the same guy that he became from season eight on. From season eight on his COMP% went up 3.5%, his TD% went up by a full point and his INT% went down by the same.

I think it is absolutely fair to say that the latter Brady absolutely allowed Belichick to slowly grow complacent with the notion of his own genius by masking many deficiencies. That has come home to roost with the current Pats (probably). Even then the Patriots Super Bowl winning teams had the #6, 1, 2, 8, 1 & 7 scoring defense.

I also think we shouldn't discount the impact losing McDaniels had on the Patriots offense.

Meh...

Belicheat failed in Cleveland and hasn't had success without TB so far. He needs to show me something. If the "Patriot Way" wasn't really Brady then him leaving shouldn't have sent the team into being an average at best team.

 

[Chaka]

This is the new Raiders. I don’t think I like the direction of the team but I’m tired of the horrible personnel management of the old Raiders.

This is the new Raiders. I’m tired.

The new Raiders are being run 100% like a business. When you treat people like numbers on a spreadsheet you lose all sense of family and community. Jacobs is more than a RB to this organization. He was a team captain and a leader. Everyone is replaceable with the new Raiders, just cogs in the machine. There is absolutely nothing to get excited about as we edge closer to training camp. It’s a shame what is happening to this once proud organization.

Thats the way they run it in New England and it works , just do your job .

Clearly whatever the Raiders have been doing hasnt worked in decades .

Well... it worked when they had the greatest QB there for a couple of decades.... so far without.... not so much. It may be possible that the "Patriot Way" was "The TB Coattails Way"

That isn't exactly fair. The Tom Brady of his first seven seasons, when they won three Lombardi's, was not the same guy that he became from season eight on. From season eight on his COMP% went up 3.5%, his TD% went up by a full point and his INT% went down by the same.

I think it is absolutely fair to say that the latter Brady absolutely allowed Belichick to slowly grow complacent with the notion of his own genius by masking many deficiencies. That has come home to roost with the current Pats (probably). Even then the Patriots Super Bowl winning teams had the #6, 1, 2, 8, 1 & 7 scoring defense.

I also think we shouldn't discount the impact losing McDaniels had on the Patriots offense.

Meh...

Belicheat failed in Cleveland and hasn't had success without TB so far. He needs to show me something. If the "Patriot Way" wasn't really Brady then him leaving shouldn't have sent the team into being an average at best team.

I have no love for Brady, Belichick or the Patriots (anyone who spends time in this thread should know my level of disdain for all of them) and I think you are being intentionally obtuse.

Belichick didn't come close to failing in Cleveland he took that team to an 11-5 record and the divisional round of the playoffs then, before the following season even began Modell made it clear he was taking the team away from Cleveland.

He is one of the greatest coaches of all time. I don't like him but absolutely wish the Raiders had gotten to him before the Patriots.

 

[Chadstroma]

This is the new Raiders. I don’t think I like the direction of the team but I’m tired of the horrible personnel management of the old Raiders.

This is the new Raiders. I’m tired.

The new Raiders are being run 100% like a business. When you treat people like numbers on a spreadsheet you lose all sense of family and community. Jacobs is more than a RB to this organization. He was a team captain and a leader. Everyone is replaceable with the new Raiders, just cogs in the machine. There is absolutely nothing to get excited about as we edge closer to training camp. It’s a shame what is happening to this once proud organization.

Thats the way they run it in New England and it works , just do your job .

Clearly whatever the Raiders have been doing hasnt worked in decades .

Well... it worked when they had the greatest QB there for a couple of decades.... so far without.... not so much. It may be possible that the "Patriot Way" was "The TB Coattails Way"

That isn't exactly fair. The Tom Brady of his first seven seasons, when they won three Lombardi's, was not the same guy that he became from season eight on. From season eight on his COMP% went up 3.5%, his TD% went up by a full point and his INT% went down by the same.

I think it is absolutely fair to say that the latter Brady absolutely allowed Belichick to slowly grow complacent with the notion of his own genius by masking many deficiencies. That has come home to roost with the current Pats (probably). Even then the Patriots Super Bowl winning teams had the #6, 1, 2, 8, 1 & 7 scoring defense.

I also think we shouldn't discount the impact losing McDaniels had on the Patriots offense.

Meh...

Belicheat failed in Cleveland and hasn't had success without TB so far. He needs to show me something. If the "Patriot Way" wasn't really Brady then him leaving shouldn't have sent the team into being an average at best team.

I have no love for Brady, Belichick or the Patriots (anyone who spends time in this thread should know my level of disdain for all of them) and I think you are being intentionally obtuse.

Belichick didn't come close to failing in Cleveland he took that team to an 11-5 record and the divisional round of the playoffs then, before the following season even began Modell made it clear he was taking the team away from Cleveland.

He is one of the greatest coaches of all time. I don't like him but absolutely wish the Raiders had gotten to him before the Patriots.

I am intentionally being slow to understand? Understand what? You think he is the greatest of all time.... great. I am not so sure. A great defensive mind? Yes. I will agree to that. Greatest coach of all time? Yea.... again, not so sure. I am not sure if that makes me dumb though... but then again, if I am obtuse then how would I know?

Giants- Purcells coattails?

Browns- HC from 91-95 with 1 winning season ending with a 36-44 record.

Patriots- Brady coattails?

Now, again, I am not going to take away that Belicheat is a good coach. A great defensive mind. I just think that until he shows me this "Patriots Way" isn't another way of saying "Damn, we got the best QB of all time for ridiculous amount of years and as long as I can put together a decent defense... we win." I am not going to say he is the best coach of all time and I am certainly not going to worship at the house of "Patriots Way".

If he is the greatest coach of all time.... if the "Patriots Way" is more than Brady..... then we should have seen more from the Patriots these last couple of years since Brady left.

 

[Chadstroma]

For Jacobs... hard to say without knowing what was offered and what they were asking but....

Average salary in the NFL for RB's: $1.81M
Average salary in the NFL for kicker's: $2.26M

He can't pull a Bell and sit out. Miss out on $10M? He is not going to make up that money. So, he sits out and then signs at the end. Makes his $10M and then either we make a deal after, tag him again or he hits free agency. The marketplace has spoken. You can get good production out of a rookie RB that is fairly easy to draft and don't have to spend a 1st for them or collect a few RB's and have them produce. It may not be elite numbers but close enough.

If we were offered trades of CMC or Kamara for a 7th rounder but we had to take their contracts as is.... no thanks.

 

[Chaka]

This is the new Raiders. I don’t think I like the direction of the team but I’m tired of the horrible personnel management of the old Raiders.

This is the new Raiders. I’m tired.

The new Raiders are being run 100% like a business. When you treat people like numbers on a spreadsheet you lose all sense of family and community. Jacobs is more than a RB to this organization. He was a team captain and a leader. Everyone is replaceable with the new Raiders, just cogs in the machine. There is absolutely nothing to get excited about as we edge closer to training camp. It’s a shame what is happening to this once proud organization.

Thats the way they run it in New England and it works , just do your job .

Clearly whatever the Raiders have been doing hasnt worked in decades .

Well... it worked when they had the greatest QB there for a couple of decades.... so far without.... not so much. It may be possible that the "Patriot Way" was "The TB Coattails Way"

That isn't exactly fair. The Tom Brady of his first seven seasons, when they won three Lombardi's, was not the same guy that he became from season eight on. From season eight on his COMP% went up 3.5%, his TD% went up by a full point and his INT% went down by the same.

I think it is absolutely fair to say that the latter Brady absolutely allowed Belichick to slowly grow complacent with the notion of his own genius by masking many deficiencies. That has come home to roost with the current Pats (probably). Even then the Patriots Super Bowl winning teams had the #6, 1, 2, 8, 1 & 7 scoring defense.

I also think we shouldn't discount the impact losing McDaniels had on the Patriots offense.

Meh...

Belicheat failed in Cleveland and hasn't had success without TB so far. He needs to show me something. If the "Patriot Way" wasn't really Brady then him leaving shouldn't have sent the team into being an average at best team.

I have no love for Brady, Belichick or the Patriots (anyone who spends time in this thread should know my level of disdain for all of them) and I think you are being intentionally obtuse.

Belichick didn't come close to failing in Cleveland he took that team to an 11-5 record and the divisional round of the playoffs then, before the following season even began Modell made it clear he was taking the team away from Cleveland.

He is one of the greatest coaches of all time. I don't like him but absolutely wish the Raiders had gotten to him before the Patriots.

I am intentionally being slow to understand? Understand what? You think he is the greatest of all time.... great. I am not so sure. A great defensive mind? Yes. I will agree to that. Greatest coach of all time? Yea.... again, not so sure. I am not sure if that makes me dumb though... but then again, if I am obtuse then how would I know?

Giants- Purcells coattails?

Browns- HC from 91-95 with 1 winning season ending with a 36-44 record.

Patriots- Brady coattails?

Now, again, I am not going to take away that Belicheat is a good coach. A great defensive mind. I just think that until he shows me this "Patriots Way" isn't another way of saying "Damn, we got the best QB of all time for ridiculous amount of years and as long as I can put together a decent defense... we win." I am not going to say he is the best coach of all time and I am certainly not going to worship at the house of "Patriots Way".

If he is the greatest coach of all time.... if the "Patriots Way" is more than Brady..... then we should have seen more from the Patriots these last couple of years since Brady left.

Intentionally as in your far too smart to make these arguments with any sort of sincerity.

BTW I am not saying 71 year old Belichick is the same as 39 year old Belichick but to dismiss the 32 years in between because he may have lost his fastball is simply not a plausible position.

 

[RaiderBones]

For Jacobs... hard to say without knowing what was offered and what they were asking but....

Average salary in the NFL for RB's: $1.81M
Average salary in the NFL for kicker's: $2.26M

He can't pull a Bell and sit out. Miss out on $10M? He is not going to make up that money. So, he sits out and then signs at the end. Makes his $10M and then either we make a deal after, tag him again or he hits free agency. The marketplace has spoken. You can get good production out of a rookie RB that is fairly easy to draft and don't have to spend a 1st for them or collect a few RB's and have them produce. It may not be elite numbers but close enough.

If we were offered trades of CMC or Kamara for a 7th rounder but we had to take their contracts as is.... no thanks.

Albert Breer on Jacobs and Raiders.

https://twitter.com/RichEisenShow/status/1681424954460635136

 

[Chadstroma]

This is the new Raiders. I don’t think I like the direction of the team but I’m tired of the horrible personnel management of the old Raiders.

This is the new Raiders. I’m tired.

The new Raiders are being run 100% like a business. When you treat people like numbers on a spreadsheet you lose all sense of family and community. Jacobs is more than a RB to this organization. He was a team captain and a leader. Everyone is replaceable with the new Raiders, just cogs in the machine. There is absolutely nothing to get excited about as we edge closer to training camp. It’s a shame what is happening to this once proud organization.

Thats the way they run it in New England and it works , just do your job .

Clearly whatever the Raiders have been doing hasnt worked in decades .

Well... it worked when they had the greatest QB there for a couple of decades.... so far without.... not so much. It may be possible that the "Patriot Way" was "The TB Coattails Way"

That isn't exactly fair. The Tom Brady of his first seven seasons, when they won three Lombardi's, was not the same guy that he became from season eight on. From season eight on his COMP% went up 3.5%, his TD% went up by a full point and his INT% went down by the same.

I think it is absolutely fair to say that the latter Brady absolutely allowed Belichick to slowly grow complacent with the notion of his own genius by masking many deficiencies. That has come home to roost with the current Pats (probably). Even then the Patriots Super Bowl winning teams had the #6, 1, 2, 8, 1 & 7 scoring defense.

I also think we shouldn't discount the impact losing McDaniels had on the Patriots offense.

Meh...

Belicheat failed in Cleveland and hasn't had success without TB so far. He needs to show me something. If the "Patriot Way" wasn't really Brady then him leaving shouldn't have sent the team into being an average at best team.

I have no love for Brady, Belichick or the Patriots (anyone who spends time in this thread should know my level of disdain for all of them) and I think you are being intentionally obtuse.

Belichick didn't come close to failing in Cleveland he took that team to an 11-5 record and the divisional round of the playoffs then, before the following season even began Modell made it clear he was taking the team away from Cleveland.

He is one of the greatest coaches of all time. I don't like him but absolutely wish the Raiders had gotten to him before the Patriots.

I am intentionally being slow to understand? Understand what? You think he is the greatest of all time.... great. I am not so sure. A great defensive mind? Yes. I will agree to that. Greatest coach of all time? Yea.... again, not so sure. I am not sure if that makes me dumb though... but then again, if I am obtuse then how would I know?

Giants- Purcells coattails?

Browns- HC from 91-95 with 1 winning season ending with a 36-44 record.

Patriots- Brady coattails?

Now, again, I am not going to take away that Belicheat is a good coach. A great defensive mind. I just think that until he shows me this "Patriots Way" isn't another way of saying "Damn, we got the best QB of all time for ridiculous amount of years and as long as I can put together a decent defense... we win." I am not going to say he is the best coach of all time and I am certainly not going to worship at the house of "Patriots Way".

If he is the greatest coach of all time.... if the "Patriots Way" is more than Brady..... then we should have seen more from the Patriots these last couple of years since Brady left.

Intentionally as in your far too smart to make these arguments with any sort of sincerity.

BTW I am not saying 71 year old Belichick is the same as 39 year old Belichick but to dismiss the 32 years in between because he may have lost his fastball is simply not a plausible position.

Very sincere. So I guess I am not that smart.

My argument is clear. I don't think that it is a poor argument. I say what I believe and believe what I say. If you disagree, then have at the argument.

His coaching career in the NFL is working can be broken, easily, into three distinct times. Giants, Browns and NE.

He had success under Purcells. With Purcells who is one of, without any debate or argument, the all time greats of head coaches in the NFL. On top of that, he had the GOAT LB on the team for those years.

Then a failed stint at the Browns HC. Yes, he made playoffs one year which was preceded and followed by bad years with an overall losing record, that is a failure. Certainly nothing that would be an argument FOR being the GOAT HC. A 36-44 record. Not absolutely horrible but also no where near being good or even close to being GOAT.

Then his long run with a ton of success in NE which also happened to have the GOAT QB the entire time.... up until the last couple of years where the team he become bad or average all of a sudden when he does not have a GOAT he is tied to. And let's not forget it wasn't JUST Brady but how many players took discounts to play on the winning team. It was an advantage because players knew "If I play with Brady, I have a good chance of winning" and that same thing has now transfered to the Chefs. "If I play with Mahomes, I have a good chance of winning" so they can sign players for less than those players may demand elsewhere.

So... two successes.... both with GOAT players and one of the best HC's of all time and one failure run..... and so far the Patriots look nothing special as well sans Brady.

The evidence, the argument suggests that he may not be the GOAT HC. I am not even saying he isn't.... I am just not sold on it because I need to see him take a GOATless Patriot team and make them a winner. We aren't seeing that. No players are rushing to the Patriots. No one is taking discounts to go play for this supposed GOAT HC. In fact, the GOAT QB left basically because of this supposed GOAT HC. You are telling me a GOAT HC let's the GOAT QB (who obviously still could play since that GOAT QB went to another team and won the SB). Ok... well.... I think that that might be the more extreme position. Sure, it is the easy position because people have been calling him the GOAT HC but just because a lot of people say something does not make it so.

But what does an obtuse guy like me know? Hmmmnnnnn...... BWDAOGKMK

 

[Sarlakticacid]

This is the new Raiders. I don’t think I like the direction of the team but I’m tired of the horrible personnel management of the old Raiders.

This is the new Raiders. I’m tired.

The new Raiders are being run 100% like a business. When you treat people like numbers on a spreadsheet you lose all sense of family and community. Jacobs is more than a RB to this organization. He was a team captain and a leader. Everyone is replaceable with the new Raiders, just cogs in the machine. There is absolutely nothing to get excited about as we edge closer to training camp. It’s a shame what is happening to this once proud organization.

Thats the way they run it in New England and it works , just do your job .

Clearly whatever the Raiders have been doing hasnt worked in decades .

Well... it worked when they had the greatest QB there for a couple of decades.... so far without.... not so much. It may be possible that the "Patriot Way" was "The TB Coattails Way"

That isn't exactly fair. The Tom Brady of his first seven seasons, when they won three Lombardi's, was not the same guy that he became from season eight on. From season eight on his COMP% went up 3.5%, his TD% went up by a full point and his INT% went down by the same.

I think it is absolutely fair to say that the latter Brady absolutely allowed Belichick to slowly grow complacent with the notion of his own genius by masking many deficiencies. That has come home to roost with the current Pats (probably). Even then the Patriots Super Bowl winning teams had the #6, 1, 2, 8, 1 & 7 scoring defense.

I also think we shouldn't discount the impact losing McDaniels had on the Patriots offense.

Meh...

Belicheat failed in Cleveland and hasn't had success without TB so far. He needs to show me something. If the "Patriot Way" wasn't really Brady then him leaving shouldn't have sent the team into being an average at best team.

I have no love for Brady, Belichick or the Patriots (anyone who spends time in this thread should know my level of disdain for all of them) and I think you are being intentionally obtuse.

Belichick didn't come close to failing in Cleveland he took that team to an 11-5 record and the divisional round of the playoffs then, before the following season even began Modell made it clear he was taking the team away from Cleveland.

He is one of the greatest coaches of all time. I don't like him but absolutely wish the Raiders had gotten to him before the Patriots.

I’m sure it came out recently that Amy Trask was pushing Al to go after BB

 

[LawFitz]

Bellychick's Browns tenure was far from a failure. We are talking about the Browns here, whom he made somewhat competitive, if not respectable. And beyond that, before Big Belly arrived and turned the Patriots into the NFL's all-time greatest winner, they were the Browns. Tecmo Bowl put them in pink jerseys for good reason.

 

[Chaka]

Okay @Chadstroma I like you too much to fight with you.

Please remember there is a big difference between "obtuse" and "intentionally obtuse".

 

[Chaka]

Bellychick's Browns tenure was far from a failure. We are talking about the Browns here, whom he made somewhat competitive, if not respectable. And beyond that, before Big Belly arrived and turned the Patriots into the NFL's all-time greatest winner, they were the Browns. Tecmo Bowl put them in pink jerseys for good reason.

For me it's lumping the final season in Cleveland in with the rest of them. I know enough of us were around to remember that well. That was an impossible situation for any coach.

 

[Chadstroma]

Okay @Chadstroma I like you too much to fight with you.

Please remember there is a big difference between "obtuse" and "intentionally obtuse".

I choose obtuse then because I am serious about my position.

 

[Chadstroma]

Bellychick's Browns tenure was far from a failure. We are talking about the Browns here, whom he made somewhat competitive, if not respectable. And beyond that, before Big Belly arrived and turned the Patriots into the NFL's all-time greatest winner, they were the Browns. Tecmo Bowl put them in pink jerseys for good reason.

For me it's lumping the final season in Cleveland in with the rest of them. I know enough of us were around to remember that well. That was an impossible situation for any coach.

By this rationale.... seriously, without being INTENTIONALLY obtuse.... who would be a better GOAT than Bisaccia? Took our pathetic Raider org that doesn't know how to spell playoffs with one appearance since our last SB.... with a team in complete upheaval the likes of which NO team has ever gone through and took them to the playoffs. That is way more of an accomplishment than one playoff year with several crap years before and a crap year after to be 'successful' then ride GOAT tails to be considered the GOAT HC.

A defensive mastermind? Yes. A great HC? Yes. Better HC than what we have had the last twenty plus years? Yes. GOAT HC? Well... howabout you win without Purcells/LT or Brady.... then I will consider it.

 

[Chaka]

Would this be a bad time to point out that Bill Parcells never won without Lawrence Taylor or Bill Belichick?

 

[Chaka]

Okay @Chadstroma I like you too much to fight with you.

Please remember there is a big difference between "obtuse" and "intentionally obtuse".

I choose obtuse then because I am serious about my position.

You may believe you, but I don't believe you.

 

[Chadstroma]

Okay @Chadstroma I like you too much to fight with you.

Please remember there is a big difference between "obtuse" and "intentionally obtuse".

I choose obtuse then because I am serious about my position.

You may believe you, but I don't believe you.

Who am I gonna believe you or my own lying eyes?!

 

[LawFitz]

Let's move on from Bill Belichick, and get back to the Raiders.

Word is Josh was sitting in a car with Mad Maxx until the deadline came and went on Monday afternoon, waiting for his agent to strike a deal at the least minute, which he could then come inside to sign. Sadly, that didn't work out, but it's a great sign that they were close and he was (and hopefully still is) eager to remain a Raider.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/07/18/josh-jacobs-waited-outside-raiders-facility-new-deal-franchise-tag-deadline

There's a human element to all of this. If the Raiders are smart, they throw Josh a bone and bump his one-yr deal from $10 to ~$12-13 MM. It wouldn't break the cap. It wouldn't create any long-term risk. But it would go a long way to not only maintaining the player bond, but also communicating to the rest of the locker room that this team cares about its players. That last ~$2 MM would be very well spent IMO, to reward and re-energize one of the core pieces of this team.

 

[Chadstroma]

Let's move on from Bill Belichick, and get back to the Raiders.

Word is Josh was sitting in a car with Mad Maxx until the deadline came and went on Monday afternoon, waiting for his agent to strike a deal at the least minute, which he could then come inside to sign. Sadly, that didn't work out, but it's a great sign that they were close and he was (and hopefully still is) eager to remain a Raider.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/07/18/josh-jacobs-waited-outside-raiders-facility-new-deal-franchise-tag-deadline

There's a human element to all of this. If the Raiders are smart, they throw Josh a bone and bump his one-yr deal from $10 to ~$12-13 MM. It wouldn't break the cap. It wouldn't create any long-term risk. But it would go a long way to not only maintaining the player bond, but also communicating to the rest of the locker room that this team cares about its players. That last ~$2 MM would be very well spent IMO, to reward and re-energize one of the core pieces of this team.

Can they do that? I know they can't sign a new extended contract until after the season.

 

[LawFitz]

Let's move on from Bill Belichick, and get back to the Raiders.

Word is Josh was sitting in a car with Mad Maxx until the deadline came and went on Monday afternoon, waiting for his agent to strike a deal at the least minute, which he could then come inside to sign. Sadly, that didn't work out, but it's a great sign that they were close and he was (and hopefully still is) eager to remain a Raider.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/07/18/josh-jacobs-waited-outside-raiders-facility-new-deal-franchise-tag-deadline

There's a human element to all of this. If the Raiders are smart, they throw Josh a bone and bump his one-yr deal from $10 to ~$12-13 MM. It wouldn't break the cap. It wouldn't create any long-term risk. But it would go a long way to not only maintaining the player bond, but also communicating to the rest of the locker room that this team cares about its players. That last ~$2 MM would be very well spent IMO, to reward and re-energize one of the core pieces of this team.

Can they do that? I know they can't sign a new extended contract until after the season.

My understanding is they can as long as it's no longer than a 1-yr deal.

 

[Chadstroma]

Let's move on from Bill Belichick, and get back to the Raiders.

Word is Josh was sitting in a car with Mad Maxx until the deadline came and went on Monday afternoon, waiting for his agent to strike a deal at the least minute, which he could then come inside to sign. Sadly, that didn't work out, but it's a great sign that they were close and he was (and hopefully still is) eager to remain a Raider.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/07/18/josh-jacobs-waited-outside-raiders-facility-new-deal-franchise-tag-deadline

There's a human element to all of this. If the Raiders are smart, they throw Josh a bone and bump his one-yr deal from $10 to ~$12-13 MM. It wouldn't break the cap. It wouldn't create any long-term risk. But it would go a long way to not only maintaining the player bond, but also communicating to the rest of the locker room that this team cares about its players. That last ~$2 MM would be very well spent IMO, to reward and re-energize one of the core pieces of this team.

Can they do that? I know they can't sign a new extended contract until after the season.

My understanding is they can as long as it's no longer than a 1-yr deal.

If they can... I think that would go a long way to smooth a long term deal for him and communicate the right things to the rest of the team. 100% with you.