Kev4029
Footballguy
He's been kind of invisible offensively, other than when he is doing something bad.
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2024-25 NBA Thread: Big weekend for Halliburtons (176 Viewers)
- Thread starter Capella
- Start date
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Need to see if Russ can give them a spark, despite looking bad in the first half...
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I can't believe there is a grown man in behind the Nuggeys backboard wearing a homemade brick on his head.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
The Nuggets ate just gassed. Even open looks are hitting the front of the rim.
Major
Footballguy
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msudaisy26
Footballguy
Do you think it is possible that Jokic asks for a trade with all the drama with the Malone and the GM and another second round exit?
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Deamon
Footballguy
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
I think that the notion that the Nuggets are not as “good” or that their roster is not good is very overplayed. Denver actually has a really good roster if you break it down:
Jokic is the best #1 player in the world to have as the best player on your team.
Murray is a very solid second best player to have on a team.
Aaron Gordon might be one of the most underrated third best players on a team to have in the league
Christian Braun is probably top 10 in the world of 4th best players on a team.
Michael Porter Jr. when healthy is not a terrible 5th best player on a team.
Westbrook and Peyton Watson are very serviceable 6th and 7th best players to have relative to the league.
I think OKC is exceptionally good on both ends of the court but I do think that Denver is not void of talent. I’ve said it throughout the season—their defense (or lack of) is going to hurt them—and it did.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
I don't think Murray is a decent #2 anymore. He isn't even the 2nd best player on this team.
Kev4029
Footballguy
I would be absolutely blown away if he did. They were good enough to push OKC to 7 with a sick Murray, a one armed MPJ, and ultimately a one legged Gordon. I think they'll be better next year and hopefully they are the team with the injury luck not OKC.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Unless the Knicks win we are guaranteed a first time champion in their current city.
Yo Mama
Footballguy
And it’s been over 50 years since the Knicks won.
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
If you don’t think that Murray isn’t the second best player on the Nuggets—I think you are further reinforcing my point that the team has a lot of talent. If you think Gordon is their number two—and Murray is their third best player—he’s one of the best third best players on a team in the league. There might be 3 or 4 teams where an argument could be made against that. There just seems to be a narrative that this years Nuggets was Jokic with a bunch of garbage around him—when that really wasn’t the case.
Mister CIA
Footballguy
identikit
Footballguy
I think Jokic is wired differently...
msudaisy26
Footballguy
No one ever said there was garbage around Jokic, but you completely missed his point and the real point. Gordon and Murray aren't number twos on a championship team anymore. The Nuggets need depth.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Same, I think he has about five years left. I don't see him being Lebron or Paul and playing until he is 40ish.
I only asked because Kev knows the Nuggets better than the rest of us and Jokic looked my upset and was more verbal than previous years. I thought maybe he was upset with the direction of the team.
scoobus
Footballguy
Pacers/Knicks- I think Indiana runs them off the floor. Bad match-up for New York in a similar vein to the Pistons, except Indy is like Detroit on steroids.
Thunder/Wolves- If OKC can get any sort of reasonable shooting, I think they take this. Too much depth/relentless pressure, Minnesota needs to shoot lights out in the series to have a chance.
Thunder/Wolves- If OKC can get any sort of reasonable shooting, I think they take this. Too much depth/relentless pressure, Minnesota needs to shoot lights out in the series to have a chance.
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
I didn’t miss his point, and I didn’t say that anybody here said that Jokic was surrounded by garbage. Believe it or not—there are a lot of basketball fans outside of here that have opinions—and I assure you that a lot of them believe that the Nuggets were somehow short of talent this season. Secondly—Aaron Gordon showed this playoff that he’s absolutely a championship caliber number 2 or 3 player. They just took the best team in the NBA this season to a game 7 and lost a game where he was playing with a grade 2 hamstring strain and another key piece that relies on shooting was playing with one shoulder. Gordon and the team looked completely different when he was healthy. I agree that the Nuggets need depth in regard to role players because having so much talent gives them very little margin for error when it comes to injuries and buys their talented players time to rest—but I don’t think that those extra depth pieces need to be crazy high level. They literally just need players that can eat up a few minutes. Having a guy or two like Nicholas Batum, shake milton would do wonders for this team. It wasn’t long ago when this same team was championship level with Reggie Jackson and Bruce brown. I see a team that is a couple of small tweaks away from being right back in contention. If you disagree, so be it.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Was that today? I didn't get to watch today's game as my son was graduating from high school today.
Because in game 6, his defense on Jokic was not "unbelievable ".
Maybe it was today, but I have no opinion on the matter.
Frostillicus
Footballguy
Knicks/Wolves final confirmed!
the moops
Footballguy
If were drafting teams #2-5 from playoffs, Denver's would be below CLE, BOS, NYK, IND, OKC, HOU, LAL, LAC, MIN, GSW for sure
Mister CIA
Footballguy
Would be cool to reverse the trade for a series, right?
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
I think that your use of the words “for sure” is very debatable.
I would not rank: Harden, Powell, Zubac and kris Dunn ahead of Murray, Gordon, Braun and Porter Jr.
I would also not rank a 41 year old lebron James, Austin Reeves, Rui Hachiumura, Dorian Finley smith ahead them.
I would also not rank: Jaylen Green, van vleet, Amen Thompson and Dillon brooks ahead of them—and I would also say that the canyon between Jokic and the Houston #1 player in Sengun is massive
I would certainly not put Jimmy Butler, Draymond Green, Podzeimski, Hield or kuminga ahead of them
okc’s 2-5 players are: Jaylen Williams, Chet holmgren, Hartenstein and Dort. I’m not sure that is better than a healthy Jamal, Gordon, Braun and Michael porter jr. okc’s strength is that they have a lot of depth beyond their 2-5.
scoobus
Footballguy
Not sure if this is a rhetorical question or not, but of course it was today.
cheese
Footballguy
The big X factor is KAT. Pacers matchup great against the rest of the Knicks, but KAT is going to pile up stats. How many minutes can he be a high usage player at that pace and what will his transition defense look like against the Pacers? They have got to punish him on the other end.
I think the Pacers will try to go small and put Siakam on Towns some of the time, but Turner has been playing too good for him to not start and close the games. With the Knicks starting lineup, I don't think you can start Siakam on Towns or Turner really has nobody to guard at all. As the series goes on, I'd like to find out what happens with Hali on OG, Nesmith on Hart, Mathurin on Bridges, Nembhard on Brunson, Siakam on Towns. My reasoning is you switch the problem from Turner has nobody he can guard to Towns has nobody he can guard. I'm confident that Siakam will score on Towns a lot and is the Pacers best bet to guard him. He is in unbelievable shape to keep it up longer. It's really just a matter of whether you're willing to "waste" Turner those minutes.
Jayrod
Footballguy
I figured, but just wanted to point out that the quote attributed to me regarding game 7 was fabricated and that my takes on NBA players are factual and reasonable and not based on the prevalent mindless groupthink that exists out there.
You know for posterity's sake.
Kev4029
Footballguy
I think Murray and Gordon are fantastic third best players on a championship team. Outside of the championship run, I don't think that Murray has proven himself to be a legit #2. This stat and similar stats have been brought up since the championship but Jokic has never played with another all-star - not only is he the only MVP to play without an All-Star but I believe he has now played the most seasons/minutes/games without ever having played with another All-Star.
The Nuggets for the first time ever are also on the wrong side of the aging curve - Next year Jokic turns 31 before the playoffs, Murray turns 29, Gordon will nearly be 31, MPJ will have the back and legs of a 45 year old. They won a title by having a defensive that could run around behind him as he was playing at the level of the pick and roll - MPJ can't do that any more, Gordon has lost a half step (even if he has made it up in other ways), and the bench guys that can help defensively (Watson and Westbrook) are liabilities offensively. f
I don't think they need an overhaul, necessarily, but I think they need more work than they have the assets to address to be a real tier 1 contender like OKC. That said, if they roll back this same team next season with some 9th man that they pick up on a minimum (say, Tim Hardaway Jr or something), I think they are a tier 2 championship contender, and all it takes to jump into tier one is a healthy playoffs and some injuries along the way for the other side.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Yeah, I like Murray and didn't want to come off as talking down on him, but this makes the point well.
He's already been the second-best player on a championship team, but he has not maintained that peak IMO.
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
I agree with a lot that you say, but I disagree with a lot of it. The demise of Murray is being vastly over-exaggerated. He just had a regular season where he averaged 21 points, 4 rebounds, 6 assists a game on 47% from the field and nearly 40% from the 3 point line. If that is not good enough for a number 2 player to play alongside the best player on the planet—I think that’s just being unreasonable. While Aaron Gordon is aging, I do not see any slowdown in his game. In my opinion, he took a giant step forward this season and this playoff—the dude shot nearly 44% from the 3 point line this year, and his emergence in clutch time effectively gives Denver three legitimate clutch players. I also think the Braun has taken a giant step forward this season—the dude averaged 15pts-5 rebounds a game on 58% from the field—-and again nearly 40% from the 3 point line. We are also talking about Michael Porter Jr as if he’s trash—but the dude just had a regular season where he averaged 18pts, 7 rebounds a game on 50% from the field and nearly 40% from the 3 point line—and played 77 regular season games. If he’s your number 4 or 5—-that’s pretty dang good.
There is a lot of recency bias because his production in the playoffs dropped off—but that’s what happens when a shooter plays with one shoulder. Jokic is also getting older—but have you or anybody else in here seen much of a drop off in his game? It’s arguable that he’s still playing his best ball right now. I just don’t buy the negative sentiment around the Nuggets decline and the lack of a number two—or a lack talent (that I’ve heard a lot outside of this forum—a lot of people just claim that the Nuggets are Jokic and a bunch of “meh” players”). My take is that their biggest flaw is that their lack of depth of average to below average roster filler types of players that can provide a few minutes of hard nosed defense here and there and give the starters some rest is all they are missing in order to be a top 3-5 contender. This team just took one of the top 2 teams (that if fully healthy) in the league to a 7th game—playing on the road, while having injuries to a couple of their key players. They certainly don’t need an overhaul imo—they just need a couple tweaks/additions of role players that can absorb a few minutes here and there.
identikit
Footballguy
The New Balance effect
Kev4029
Footballguy
I don't think there has been a demise of Jamal Murray, I just think there has been too much anchoring to a single playoff run. There were 15 GUARDS that averaged more points per 36 on a higher TS% than Murray this year - a list that has a lot of All-NBA type players and future HOFers but also Jordan Poole, Tyler Herro, Norm Powell (the only one of the whole group that I would not qualify as a PG or combo guard), Collin Sexton, Coby White, and Desmond Bane. There are also a lot of guys that are either a little less efficient or slightly less prolific scorers that are reasonable facsimiles (CJ McCollum, Anfernee Simons, Austin Reaves types). Basically, he is a very good version of the type of player that every team needs but nearly every team has. The one place where he deserves more credit than he gets is defensively - he's a big lead guard with big, strong hands and good recognition. He's probably an above average defender at PG (at least in the playoffs) with a big offensive role which is hard to find. He's probably something like the 15th best guard in basketball and the 35th best player or something.
Gordon is great - I said yesterday that he might be my favorite Denver sports figure ever. The dude was born to play next to Jokic. His development into a reliable free throw and three point shooter is huge. He's a 10/10 glue guy. He's still not the 2nd best player on a title team though.
Braun was fantastic this year. I called him a borderline top 10 SG earlier this season in here and got laughed at. Defensively, he took a step back this year as he went from playing 20 mpg to 34 mpg and couldn't put 100% effort in all the time, and he is only a passable shooter despite his near 40% three point shooting as they are all wide open, but I love the dude. Great fit as a 5th starter that slides between the 2 and 3.
MPJ is both the cause and solution to so many of Denver's problems. He is a legit A+ shooter that has tons of gravity because he is about the tallest guy in the NBA other than Durant that shoots a legit jump shot so late closeouts (or even good contests) don't have any effect on him. The fact that he disappears offensively is annoying but not particularly problematic in a big picture sense. The problem is that he is both a careless defender that gets lost in Denver's schemes and I think he is having more issues with his back (and therefore his legs) so he can't guard anybody. He has the 33rd biggest salary in the NBA next year and above all else, that is is what is killing them.
If they make a big move, it's something related to MPJ if they can find anybody to consider him even remotely even value on his contract. I would love to see something like MPJ and a 2028 pick swap to SAS for Barnes and Keldon Johnson or MPJ (and Nnaji?!?!) to ORL for KCP and Jonathan Isaac (and Gary Harris?!?!).
Yo Mama
Footballguy
The Braun extension amount should be interesting this year. If he gets $30m (amount similar to Suggs, for example), that puts Denver over the 2nd apron in 26/27.
Kev4029
Footballguy
Some recent comps (first group from the last year, second group from the year prior):
- Suggs - 5/150 (rookie)
- Derrick White - 4/118
- Trey Murphy - 4/112 (rookie)
- Jalen Green - 3/105 (rookie)
- Caruso - 4/81
- Nembhard - 3/59
- Kisbert - 4/54 (rookie)
- Aaron Gordon - 3/104 (really 4/127 as he opted in to the final year of his previous contract)
- Devin Vassell - 5/135 (rookie)
- Jaden McDaniels - 5/131 (rookie)
- Josh Hart - 4/80
- Grayson Allen 4/70
- Deni Avdija - 4/55 (rookie)
- Josh Green - 3/41 (rookie)
The jump in cap was pretty small between those two years so we can compare those pretty close to apples to apples. I think Suggs and Murphy are high end caps (call that an average of $30m/yr) with Nemhard/Hart/Caruso being lower end limits (call it $20m/yr). He's more of a true 2 that can play 3, so Suggs (1/2) and Murphy (more true 3) are a little more valuable and both have a little more high end ceiling. The best comparison might be McDaniels, just position adjusted (somebody that is a 3/4 is in higher demand, so adjust down a bit) then adjusted for cap inflation (and extra 13% or whatever) - I think that makes for a fair contract of roughly 5/135. That would put his 26-27 salary at somewhere around $23M. Watson on the other hand is probably closer to Moses Moody (3/38) - I'm guessing he ends up somewhere around 4/55 on an extension.
Kev4029
Footballguy
Just for reference, in 26-27 the 25% max would be $42.5m/yr (30% = 51m, 35% = 59.5m... Steph will be making $62.6m, the only player currently projected to be more than the 35% max) , the full MLE will be about $15.5. Cap will be $170m, first apron will be $215.5m, second apron will be $228.6.
Courtjester
The Town Drunk
I think Denver really blew it with MPJ and not trading him when he had some value at midseason. Now they’re going to get pennies on the dollar after his playoff performance.
Ever since Murray got his extension he has been inconsistent, injured or just disappears from games.
I am excited to see what Holmes can bring to this team off the bench next year
Not to be all Debbie Downer but if your name isn’t Joker, Gordon, Braun or Holmes, then the Denver Nuggets are open for business. I think Denver has zero picks in this draft. The most frustrating part is we knew before the season started what the glaring holes were and now I feel like it’s Groundhog Day going into next year.
Ever since Murray got his extension he has been inconsistent, injured or just disappears from games.
I am excited to see what Holmes can bring to this team off the bench next year
Not to be all Debbie Downer but if your name isn’t Joker, Gordon, Braun or Holmes, then the Denver Nuggets are open for business. I think Denver has zero picks in this draft. The most frustrating part is we knew before the season started what the glaring holes were and now I feel like it’s Groundhog Day going into next year.
Corporation
Angry Bovine
I say this periodically, but the thread title updates always make my day, just super creative. Keep up the good work Cappy!
Kev4029
Footballguy
He had no value then either - he might be more of a sunk cost now (I don't think his injury and these bad playoffs would have much effect), but nobody was going to give anything of value up for him. I actually give him a lot of credit playing through a separated shoulder for a few weeks.
Regarding Holmes, don't get too excited. Rookies are rarely good and he's coming off about the most devastating injury possible. If he can outplay Nnaji for some scrap minutes, I'll consider it a success.
The Nuggets have zero second rounders available to trade until after the draft/new league year. They could trade a '31 first today (technically next available as they are trading a '29 first to OKC protected 1-5). They could also trade swaps in 26/28/30 today (again there is some goofy draft stuff) and after the draft they could trade a 32 swap. Those later swaps to somebody like OKC/SAS/HOU would be legit valuable.
I don't know exactly where they will land in terms of cap, but they should have the tax payer MLE available ($5.7m v the vet minimum of $3.6m) and could provide more of an opportunity at both playing time and playoff success than most other teams. Some guys I could see them interested in that they might be able to get - Chris Boucher, Larry Nance Jr, Taurean Prince, Bojan Bogdanovic, Gary Trent Jr, Luke Kennard, Tim Hardaway Jr, BRUCE BROWN!, Malcom Brogdon.
FWIW, I also think there is a fair chance that Trey Alexander is a rotation player next year - he averaged 26.1/5.7/5.5 on .617 TS% (including 43% from three on 7 a game) in the G-League.
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