Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
49ers Camp Battle (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter chedha
- Start date
General Malaise
Footballguy
Further to my point....5 out of the 10 top rushers in terms of total rushing yards were on teams that missed the playoffs in 2004.And again, I know you don't like the Tomlinson comparison, but before he became the consensus #1 Fantasy Player Drafted, he put up god like stats on a San Diego team that was awful. Just plain awful. Moreover, he never even had any TV exposure - no prime time games in his career and west coast games that are seen by very few people.It happens. Ignore teams like San Francisco at your own peril.
General Malaise
Footballguy
Let's take a look...
Last edited by a moderator:
General Malaise
Footballguy
EBF, I'd say his 2003 performance against Florida is better than you give him credit for.
The guy has been injured.. we need to see how he performs to judge how far his rehab has come, and what he's capable of in the nfl.. seeing all three back first hand (mcgahee, edge, portis and gore) .. gore had tremendous potential, especially with a very average rb in barlow..as far as the heisman trophy.. it means absolutely NOTHING in the NFL.. in the past 20 years.. only 5 winners had a decent career in the NFL...
they do as long as there's some decent RB talent. oakland was bad last year, and aside from some fluke games, they didnt produce much to write home about from the RB position. i agree with your main point, but it doesnt work unless the RB is decent.Right...that's by design. Look, FBG.com had Barlow ranked as a top 10 RB before last year....and he wasn't even close to that when the season was over. It's not like the guy didn't have any talent at his disposal. Furthermore, Gore was a third round pick from a school that produces some mighty fine RB's. Barber, Davis and Dillon were 2nd to 4th round picks and yet here they sit amongst the elite in fantasy land after enduring some bad teams.How else am I to prove my point than to show you that bad teams can and do produce very good fantasy backs?i see your point, but youre still picking top 15 RBs. what if gore/barlow isnt that kind of talent?exactly.....you can find good fantasy production from the RB spot on even the worst NFL teams. I'm not saying Gore or Barlow are Payton/LT incarnate, but the example is worth noting.Corey Dillon was on terrible Bengal teams...he was worth drafting.I'd cut GM some slack, he probably doesn't realize he's not in the FFA.using one of the best to ever play and the best RB currently in the game to make your point might not be the best tack - how did RBs that are not elite do in crappy offenses - unless youre trying to say that you think gore is an LT/payton in the making.The Chargers entry to the Playoffs last year were their first since LTII was drafted....and there were some sorry San Diego teams that he was on. Did he have any value?Did Walter Payton have any value prior to the 1985 Bears winning a SB? I assure you he did and I assure you those teams were lousy that he was on.What value does either back have even if they are featured? Its the suck a** 49ers we're talking about here.
I agree though, good point, bad way to make it. I just took it to mean that you can find fantasy production on bad teams.
Tiki Barber hasn't sniffed the playoffs in some time...he has value.
Dom Davis and company aren't superbowl favorites...value there.
my point was made...
EBF
Footballguy
So he beat up on East Carolina, Louisiana Tech, and Florida? Let's give him a starting job in the NFL. While we're at it, let's start preparing hall of fame busts for Shaud Williams, Artose Pinner, LaBrandon Toefield, Vernand Morency, Quentin Griffin, Greg Jones, Derrick Knight, Avon Cobourne, Quincy Wilson, Anthony Davis, Darren Sproles, TA McLendon, Kay Jay Harris, Ken Simonton, Walter Reyes, and Bobby Purify. They had a few good games in college. They must be destined for superstardom.
EBF
Footballguy
That's absolutely true, although I think the last few RBs to finish as finalists for the Heisman are Reggie Bush, Adrian Peterson, Chris Perry, Larry Johnson, Willis McGahee, LaDainian Tomlinson, Ron Dayne, and Ricky Williams. They're not all NFL stars, but it's still pretty good company.Anyhow, I mentioned the Heisman to show that Willis McGahee sustained an elite level of play over a complete college season. Frank Gore never did that (unless you can't 2001, when he was running against exhausted defenses in garbage time).
Last edited by a moderator:
jurb26
Footballguy
No, you were not just stating that, you were speaking in terms of TALENT and ABILITY as well. So, back to the question: Had the timing of Gore and McGahee's injuries been reversed, then what would your opinion of each players talent and ability be? Lets remember it is writen right in the scouting report that Gore, not Willis had taken over sole control of that #2 RB spot in Mia in 2001 even though Willis had been there an extra year to prove himself! Not only that, but this also clears the air of that rumor of Willis, not Gore being the reason Portis elected to bail early.
EBF
Footballguy
Here's the bottom line for me on Gore:As far as I can tell, he was a marginal college player. He showed promise as a freshman, but his college career was unspectacular as a whole. He never had a great season and his only full season as a starter was unimpressive. I supposed you can make the argument that he played ahead of McGahee and is therefore the better back. This is a bad argument. First off, it was early in their careers. Some players take a while to develop. Secondly, that a player was better suited to the college game than another player does not mean that he'll be better suited to the pro game than the other player. Travis Taylor was the star at Florida (not Darrell Jackson). Peter Warrick was the star at Florida State (not Laveranues Coles). Drew Henson was the star at Michigan (not Tom Brady). I think you see where I'm going with this. As far as I can tell, Frank Gore is a mediocre physical specimen. His highlights are unimpressive. He's not particularly fast, he's not particularly quick, and he's not particularly explosive. His workout numbers are well below average for an NFL starter. In fact, they're among the worst of any RB taken in the draft. You can write this off to injury, but his workouts took place well over a year after his latest ligament tear. Speaking of injuries, he's an injury risk and it's possible that he's not the player he once was. Two ACL tears don't mean you can't be effective, but they're red flags nonetheless.I think people like Gore for a few reasons:- They look at his early success at Miami and automatically associate him with recent Miami backs like Willis McGahee and Clinton Portis. They assume that he's in the same league as those two players because he went to the same school and had some big games. - He has a chance to start. Any decent rookie RB with a chance to earn playing time is destined to be overrated by desperate owners looking to draft the next big thing. Call it the Alvin Perman syndrome. If you ask me the Gore hype is just wishful thinking. Frank Gore has become a tall tale. His supporters have built him up to be this great back who simply hasn't been healthy enough to show the world his awesome talent. I think time will show what I already suspect to be true, that Frank Gore is an average back with very little chance of lasting as a starter in the NFL.
EBF
Footballguy
It might also have something to do with the fact that he's vastly inferior from a physical standpoint. Here are some nice numbers from NFL.com:Willis McGaheeBut because he didn't get drafted as high, and with the fanfare of portis, mcgahee etc... he'll be regarded as someone who has a long shot at ever competing in the nfl at a high level
4.24 in the 40-yard dash … 3.69 in the 20-yard shuttle … 41-inch vertical jump … 10-foot-11 broad jump …
Clinton Portis
4.42 in the 40-yard dash … 39-inch vertical jump …
Frank Gore
4.66 in the 40-yard dash … 4.13 20-yard shuttle … 11.33 60-yard shuttle … 6.95 three-cone drill … 32-inch vertical jump … 9-foot-1broad jump …
jurb26
Footballguy
The only reason you have come to this conclusion is because like most everyone out there you have only ever seen Gore running at half speed, while recovering from knee operations, overweight, and with out his burst/speed/explosivness/elusivness. I hope you at least realize this. If not, then there is no point in even discussing it any further. All of those things I listed are RUMORED to be coming back to Gore post UM. Which is great news for him but not so great news for anyone who maybe competing with him for touches (as he showed vs elite level backs at UM). If this isn't a situation that warrents watching, I guess I just don't know what is anymore.
EBF
Footballguy
I saw both of these guys play several times. Gore never stood out to me as having special skills (even before he got hurt). In contrast, it became clear during the 2002 season that McGahee was a can't miss RB prospect. He had speed, instincts, vision, power, and quickness. He had far more than I ever saw from Gore. I know draft position is only so accurate as a projector of pro success, but I think it's pretty telling that McGahee was a first round pick months after shredding his knee while Gore could only crack the third round despite having well over a year to rehab.
I have no reason to dislike Frank Gore, but I always call it like I see it. I had several chances to draft Gore this offseason and I never once did. Why? Because I don't think he has the talent to make it as an NFL starter. He's not a dynamic runner and he has marginal physical skills.
EBF
Footballguy
Wrong. A player from my high school played for Miami from 98-2002. I watched well over a dozen of their games during that span. Kenny Kelly, Dan Morgan, Al Blades, James Jackson, Santana Moss, Reggie Wayne, Clinton Portis, Jeremy Shockey, Willis McGahee, Andre Johnson, Kellen Winslow, Roscoe Parrish, Frank Gore. I saw them all play many times.
jurb26
Footballguy
OK, so what your now saying is that your evaluation of talent is better than that of the UM coaches and staff? I think I'll stick with those guys, no disrepect intended. And yes, I too have seen all of those guys paly and Gore looked flat out amazing when healthy back then. Can he get that back, who knows, I hope so but am also no blind enough to assume it will happen. I always like to see new and exciting talent enter the NFL thoguh and a healthy Gore would be just that IMO.
Since when does a 40 time translate to being a productive NFL running back?? There are plenty of extremely successful players in the league i.e. Terrell Davis, the G.O.A.T.. jerry rice, who had less than stellar combine's, or workouts, and they turned out great. A great running back is all about being smart and having vision, seeing the holes, following your blockers, being patient and waiting for plays to develop etc.. 40 time is an indication of speed, but i've seen many interviews with coordinators/HC's in the NFL with regard to 40 times, and the consensus is it's a small factor in evaluating a players abilities... Gore has many of the attributes it's takes from seeing him first hand... Although time away from football and recovery from injury are a concern.. we'll have to wait and see what happensIt might also have something to do with the fact that he's vastly inferior from a physical standpoint. Here are some nice numbers from NFL.com:Willis McGahee
4.24 in the 40-yard dash … 3.69 in the 20-yard shuttle … 41-inch vertical jump … 10-foot-11 broad jump …
Clinton Portis
4.42 in the 40-yard dash … 39-inch vertical jump …
Frank Gore
4.66 in the 40-yard dash … 4.13 20-yard shuttle … 11.33 60-yard shuttle … 6.95 three-cone drill … 32-inch vertical jump … 9-foot-1broad jump …
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
I think this is a hoot. If Frank Gore were a 2-knee-injury RB from Miami of Ohio, the board would be half the size as it is.Colin
EBF
Footballguy
So do you think the UM staff's evaluations are better than those of the NFL scouts. McGahee was a first round pick almost immediately after his injury. Gore was a third round pick over a year after his injury. It doesn't look like I'm the only one who thinks Willis is in a different league from Frank.Anyhow, that one player was ahead of another on a college depth chart does not prove that he is the better NFL prospect.
Drew Bennett sat behind Brian Poli-Dixon at UCLA.
James Lofton didn't start until his senior year at Stanford.
Priest Holmes sat behind Ricky Williams at Texas.
Reggie Wayne played second fiddle to Santana Moss at Miami.
Tom Brady backed up Drew Henson at Michigan.
There are many, many examples of this kind of thing. Gore was the primary backup to Portis in 2001. That doesn't mean he'll be a better NFL player than Willis McGahee.
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
Incorrect. Ricky played FB for Priest when Priest was a senior. IIRC, Ricky missed out on 1k yards because of this.COlin
EBF
Footballguy
Ahh, it's the dreaded "the Anquan Boldin logic." Just because one player excelled despite having a particular deficiency does not mean that every player with that deficiency will automatically succeed. A deficiency is a deficiency. All things being equal, a back with 4.4 speed is better than a back with 4.6 speed.
It's mostly about instincts, speed, quickness, power, and burst. That's why it takes virtually no time to learn the position. It's all about natural talent, including several physical skills that can be measured to some degree of accuracy.The numbers don't lie. Is it a coincidence that the vast majority of the recent top RBs in the NFL have workout numbers that would put Gore's to shame? Is that just random, meaningless chance? No. There's a reason they test these players.
Straight line speed isn't what will kill him in the NFL. It's his inability to cut on a dime and generate a quick burst that separates him from the best professionals.
jurb26
Footballguy
No, I actually like Willis far more and think he just needed more time to mature into the back he is now and was his final year in Mia. I have stated several times that I think Willis is the best RB to have come out in YEARS as a talent. That still does not change the fact that false info is continually passed on regarding Gore. There is a major difference in regards to Willis and Gore that SHOULD make NFL GMs and scouts prefer Willis over Gore. That difference is that Willis proved his abiltiy on a large national stage where as Gore was unable to to his full ability. That leaves a large amount of doubt and rightfully so. Gore did not deserve to get drafted any higher than he was with the questions surrounding him IMO. To say that he is nothing more than average talent is false though. You can say he was an average talent post injury and that is fine, but prior to it he simply was not. He maybe able to regain that again and he may not. Either way, the news we have been hearing all offseason and now at the start of camp has all been good and leads us to believe that his recovery is going well.
Last edited by a moderator:
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
However, Jamal Lewis entered the NFL draft b/c Fulmer told him Travis Henry was gonig to get most of the carries the next year.COlin
but thats the whole point. that gore was a megaprospect out of high school and considered equal to portis and mcgahee in the embryonic parts of their careers makes him very VERY intriguing. Cedric Houston is a very intriguing guy to me for the same reasons - megaprospect, never really hit his stride, now we have an explanation (untreated thyroid condition), and maybe the talent will blossom again.
I never said that he would automatically produce good numbers because he doesn't have the best speed, I said that 40 times are just that a small facet of what a coach/scout looks at when evaluating a players talent/ability. But what your saying is that he'll automatically not succeed based on his injury risk, workout metrics,and what you've seen of his limited play, which i don't agreed with at all. Guys Frank Gore is 22 yrs old!! It's not like he's 32 yrs old and he's had these injuries, that's a different story. But a young guy like this, definitley has the ability to come back from something like this
BeTheMatch
Footballguy
Terry Allen scored 21 TDs one year after both knees scoped.
falconsfan7
Footballguy
For some odd reason, this hype reminds me of "The Legend of Ben Gay" discussion several years ago.
The Man With No Name
Footballguy
How about Tony Hollings?
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
I can't believe I read all of that.
General Malaise
Footballguy
no, but it does disprove your ridiculous assertion that he only played well in garbage time four years ago. He's the only back in U of M HISTORY to have 3 straight 100 yard rushing games to open a season. Think about that for a second. Regardless of the competition, think about some of the names that have carried the rock in Miami and it's pretty astounding that he's the only person to do that.
As well, as a freshman, he topped 100 yards over WVU and Syracuse. Those aren't cup cakes.
He had an injury plagued college career. You know it and so do I. Despite all his set backs, he still was Miami's 7th leading rusher in history. And that's a mediocre career???
You may not like the guy's chances and he might not pan out, but you're flat out wrong like the nazis to call his career mediocre and to say he only put up stats in garbage time.
Weiner Dog
Footballguy
49ers | Gore InjuredFri, 5 Aug 2005 20:50:04 -0700Dennis Georgatos, of the San Jose Mercury News, reports San Francisco 49ers rookie RB Frank Gore (shoulder) suffered a shoulder injury during practice Friday morning, August 5. Gore, whose shoulder popped out of joint as he broke a tackle, could be sidelined a week or more head coach Mike Nolan said.
Irish
Footballguy
-- 49ers Injury Update --
Sat Aug 6, 2005 --from FFMastermind.com
#
The San Francisco Chonicle reports 49ers S Arnold Parker, RB Frank Gore and FB Steve Bush all sustained shoulder injuries during Friday's practice. Parker (sprained left shoulder) will be out about two weeks. Bush (sore shoulder) is expected to miss about a week because of a sore shoulder. Gore, whose shoulder popped out of joint when a defender jerked his arm, could be sidelined a week or more, HC Mike Nolan said. With Gore out, RB Kevan Barlow took advantage and excelled in pass-protection drills.
I guess he heard about Switz bashing his blocking skills and improved upon them.
Sat Aug 6, 2005 --from FFMastermind.com
#
The San Francisco Chonicle reports 49ers S Arnold Parker, RB Frank Gore and FB Steve Bush all sustained shoulder injuries during Friday's practice. Parker (sprained left shoulder) will be out about two weeks. Bush (sore shoulder) is expected to miss about a week because of a sore shoulder. Gore, whose shoulder popped out of joint when a defender jerked his arm, could be sidelined a week or more, HC Mike Nolan said. With Gore out, RB Kevan Barlow took advantage and excelled in pass-protection drills.
I guess he heard about Switz bashing his blocking skills and improved upon them.
Gringoloco
Footballguy
I like Gore a reasonable amount. While I don't give too much credit for him being listed ahead of McGahee at one time, I also don't agree with those naysayers.But any delays for Gore's maturation are not a good point, and this injury will at least delay his learning curve.If Barlow plays fairly well, this setbacl for Gore could be all Barlow needs to strengthen his starting spot.
Raiders Fan
The Black Hole
There must be a lot of hopefull people out there that took Gore late cause I can't see this guy staying healthy to contribute.. Barlow looks to be a lock this year. I am moving him 
. I am still shocked at the amount of pimping almost EVERY RB has this year.. It's like the more they talk the more playing time they will get..
. I am still shocked at the amount of pimping almost EVERY RB has this year.. It's like the more they talk the more playing time they will get..
kevthegrad
Footballguy
Well Gore's going to miss at least a week now with a bone chip in his shoulder...so I don't see anybody but Barlow starting week 1.
There must be a lot of hopefull people out there that took Gore late cause I can't see this guy staying healthy to contribute.. Barlow looks to be a lock this year. I am moving him
kellumsboys
Footballguy
glad to see Barlow finally got some motivation.-- 49ers Injury Update --
Sat Aug 6, 2005 --from FFMastermind.com
#
The San Francisco Chonicle reports 49ers S Arnold Parker, RB Frank Gore and FB Steve Bush all sustained shoulder injuries during Friday's practice. Parker (sprained left shoulder) will be out about two weeks. Bush (sore shoulder) is expected to miss about a week because of a sore shoulder. Gore, whose shoulder popped out of joint when a defender jerked his arm, could be sidelined a week or more, HC Mike Nolan said. With Gore out, RB Kevan Barlow took advantage and excelled in pass-protection drills.
I guess he heard about Switz bashing his blocking skills and improved upon them.
