because no team is going to offer more than the desperate Vikes who desperately need a WRso VJ walks next season and the Chargers may get a compensatory pick, which is at best the end of the 3rd round
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Any news on Vincent Jackson trade rumors? (3 Viewers)
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road warrior
Footballguy
I'm just glad this is over.... what a waste of time.
Hey, I heard they opened up an new Patriots RB thread. See you over there.
Hey, I heard they opened up an new Patriots RB thread. See you over there.
Mr. PadresLakers
Footballguy
You must have missed Merriman's "holdout" earlier this season. "Don't go to SD, They won't cave when you demand a trade"?
Max Power
Footballguy
Sure they count, but draft pick trades is just a numbers game for the most part. They are probably some of the easiest deals to get done, besides a player for a late round pick. This is kind of getting off point. I don't think AJ is generally "unreasonable" when it comes to contracts and trades. In this case however, I don't like how he played his cards. So back to the original point I was trying to make, just because he has made some trades in the past, don't mean that he isn't be unreasonable in this situation.
bulger2holt
Footballguy
What is VJax's status at years end ? UFA ?
We don't know what the compensatory pick would be, if there is one. It could be a third-rounder, or it could be five first-rounders (although that's unlikely). There isn't a CBA for 2011 yet, so we can't know.Also, let's not take it for granted that Jackson will be an unrestricted free agent in 2011. That's not yet settled, either. Ed McGuire seems to think there's a decent chance he won't be, and he played a big role in writing the current CBA, so his guess is worth more than most.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Yeah, I remember that line of reasoning from when people used it after Gates signed his extension a couple years ago following a "bitter" hold out where A.J. was the bad guy. You know, the extension he signed prior to the new extension he just signed this year - with the Chargers - with A.J. Smith as the GM.
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tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Are you 100% certain that the Vikings offer today was the best the Chargers will get? What if the Redskins work out a 5 year extension over the next 3 weeks - wouldn't VJax be worth a 2nd and 3rd if the Skins got his rights for 5 years?Are you 100% certain that VJax won't bit the bullet, report to the Chargers in week 7, and play the final 10 games of the season, plus the playoffs? I think it's unlikely, but it could happen. VJ may be pissed at AJ Smith, but he's still good friends with Philip Rivers, his teammates, and has a very good relationship with the coaches. If he returns, I believe he is professional and would separate his dislike for AJ from the game. In between the lines, I think VJ would compete hard and be a team player. In that case, the Chargers get VJax's services for the final 10 games and the playoffs, AND the 3rd round compensation pick.So the idea that a late 3rd is the "best case scenario" is just flat out wrong.craxie said:
It's up in the air until we find out what the new CBA says.Politically, I'd expect Vincent Jackson's interests to be favored on that issue. The players' union will probably go to bat for him, and 30 of the 32 owners won't really care one way or the other. But the way the current rule is written makes sense, so the current rule may be retained without an exception for Jackson. (The current rule is that a restricted free agent can't become unrestricted by sitting out the whole year. If a team owns the rights to a player, it doesn't lose those rights just because a player sits out. It's entitled to a year of service at the player's RFA tender, no matter how long it has to wait.)bulger2holt said:
they've had months to work out a deal. if they don't have one by now, what makes you think they will have one later?
no, i'm 110% sure
doesn't matter, he's not going to risk his career for $300k
bulger2holt
Footballguy
Thanks. I like the rule. He should not be allowed to walk away because he sat out a year. The Chargers should be compensated properly.
If he reports in week 7, he'd be eligible to play in the final seven games. But your point stands. I don't know what Jackson will do, but if I were his agent, I'd advise him to report by Nov. 16, which would make him eligible to play in the final three games plus the playoffs. That would remove almost all doubt about being an unrestricted free agent next season.
Max Power
Footballguy
In most years I would agree with this, but Jackson is getting screwed because of the expiring CBA. He has put in his time. Its an uncapped year. If an extra 3mil is all the guy is really looking for (6 mil total for 2010 was the expected contract from Minny), why not just pony up for this year only? Smith wants to play hardball, but he isn't making his team better in the process. I really feel like if SD shows no intention to keep a player and doesn't mind playing without him...Why should they get compensation?
There isn't a market rate or a going market price, because there isn't a market. There's only one seller. It's not like other teams are offering to trade Jackson for less than AJ Smith is demanding.If Jackson understands that he shouldn't have to play if he's offered less than he thinks he's worth, then he should also understand that AJ Smith shouldn't have to trade him if he's offered less than he thinks he's worth. It's not unethical to decline transacting on terms you don't like.Max Power said:
Gr00vus
Footballguy
It's an uncapped year because of the expiring CBA as well. You can't have it both ways. Also the lack of cap hasn't exactly led to the owners spending like George Stienbrenner (well except maybe the Jets). $3 million is a decent chunk of change, even for an NFL owner, and the Chargers in particular have never made a practice of spending extravagantly.I do think there's something to your last point. I'm not sure the repercussions of addressing it would always be ideal though.
Sebowski
Footballguy
I think he has a chance to be one right now if he decides to sue. He happily played out the contract he signed. When he signed that deal the understanding was that he would be an UFA this past offseason. The rules changed sudddenly on that and now he is getting screwed. Meanwhile AJ has shown that he values VJax more than a 2nd round pick by demanded more than that for him. To me, and most likely and arbitrator, that shows VJax is getting screwed for the sake of screwing here. I think now that the "deadline" has passed he should take this as high up as he can.Maurile Tremblay said:
You mean the one where Gates missed his plane so had to sign a day late so AJ suspended him for the opener against the Cowboys where they barely lost? Are you cited that as an example of AJ being a good GM? Trust me, this hurts a lot to say. On so many levels for me....ShEli and Archie were right, and I am starting to blame them less. :shiver:Can't believe I just typed that.....Gr00vus said:
Max Power
Footballguy
I'm not going to defend his use of the term "unethical", but I do see where Jackson is coming from. He honored his first contract. I don't know if he made a stink at any point about wanting a long-term deal. What is clear is that he isn't part of SD's long term plan and wants to move on to secure his financial future. A trade was offered that appeared to be on par with what other WRs are being traded for recently, and was turned down. Now that team will likely get LESS for him when all is said and done. I can totally understand why he is upset with this situation.
Mr. PadresLakers
Footballguy
You must be a lawyer Sebowski 
Max Power
Footballguy
yep, but you've got to think teams make a couple mil more for each playoff game they are in. So it might just boil down to the fact that the Chargers just dont think he is a difference maker.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
He offered Jackson a $3.3 million tender - I'm pretty sure that's pretty close to what 2nd and 3rd round draft choices combined make. How was he getting screwed exactly if that's how Smith values him? Also the rules didn't change "suddenly" - people have been aware of the results of the CBA expiring for a while.
Way to miss the point entirely. That being - the suggestion that A.J.'s negotiation style will come back to hurt him in future negotiations doesn't seem to have any merit considering the counter example of Gates signing a second extension after having a contentious time with A.J. signing the first one. Or Rivers's extension. Or Dielman's free agent deal, etc., etc., etc.Simply put, A.J. knows how he values people, he's blatantly honest about it with little room for fluctuation. So far it seems like he's done a more than adequate job of valuing people. More to the point, not understanding how he operates, or choosing to ignore it, is a bad idea - particularly if you're trying to negotiate with him (or making comments about it on a message board) - which inevitably leads to "wasting time" and frustration.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
Bingo.
Max Power
Footballguy
Which only boggles the mind more as to why they wouldn't take a second round pick for the guy.
The Jerk
Footballguy
You're a lot smarter than this. Surely you realize that having an early draft slot doesn't just impact the first rounders. When you're drafting #1, then obviously you're getting a second round pick that is one pick shy of being a first rounder. Drew Brees, anyone?tommyGunZ said:
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Well, great. Then don't ask for a 1st and a 3rd for him. And don't turn down multiple offers that are [almost certainly] better than you'll get when he leaves.Hard to avoid the idea that AJS is a petty, vindictive ##### at this point. There's really no upside for him to turn down these trades. None. Even if the NFL screws him in the new CBA [exceedingly unlikely IMO] Jackson's not going to sign his tender next year either, and his value will be nil.
While this is true...isn't it also true that VJ would have been an unrestricted FA under the normal rules of the old CBA? (As opoosed to the bastardized final year rules?)Personally, I think AJ has been an donkey's rear, but I can see Jackson getting his release if he sits.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
They think he's worth more than that on the market.
The Mona Lisa might be worthless to you, but if you had it would you just give it away or would you try to get as much as you can for it, particularly if what you could get would allow you to obtain things that are of worth to you?Your better point would be that they've misjudged the market for Jackson. So far that seems to be the case.
Or perhaps they feel the opportunity cost of trading him for less than they do value him is greater than the opportunity cost of keeping him around at this time.
While I would normally agree...I think a 300K tender is more then unreasonable, it's downright assinine in a free society. I know many would disagree with me, but that's the kind of offer that the NFL offices should step in and intevene on because it's not "drawing a line", it's a huge middle finger to all the players...not exactly something the NFL should want to do right now.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
You know they initially offered a $3.3 million tender and only reduced to it $300K when he wouldn't report or negotiate, right?
I agree with this...but the current tender (300k) is most certainly unethical. It's still a man's life, and messing with it in this way is most certainly unethical...and is the kind of crap that will cause significant problems for the NFL long term, as it opens up deeper scrutiny and the possibility of unfavorable legal actions.
It's a $600k tender that, if signed, would be reduced based on the number of games played, likely amounting to <$300k if he were to only play 6 games.The rule exists is to protect teams by giving a little more incentive to sign early enough to join camp and be ready for the season. He chose not to sign, fully understanding that consequence.EDIT: I don't think he'd sign anyway if the $3million+ tender were still on the table.
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
I'm not so sure. I think he'd strongly consider playing a half season (or less) for $3+ million at this point. He'd be stupid not to, not only to get paid something, but also (as MT has mentioned) to completely eliminate the possibility he'd be stuck in this position again the following season (even though it would seem he should be a UFA then, who knows how a ruling on this situation might go) and make sure he can hit the open market.
Yep...and at 3.3 million, what seems at least remotely close to market value, the onus would be 100% on Jackson. IN fact...had that tender remained in effect, don't you think Jackson would have caved by now? 300k is what career ST's WR5s make.AT 300k...Jackson CAN'T cave. His career is worth far too much to risk it at that price.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
As I said earlier, I get a sense that the Chargers would negotiate an appropriate compensation package for the remainder of the season if Jackson's agents would approach them. In no way do I expect him to play for $300K. That was a negotiating ploy to get Jackson's agents back to the table and negotiate further, which they have refused to do.
Have they stated this publicly? Might as well since it didn't work...doing so would reverse the tide of public perception and hurt their position not one iota.
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None_More_Black
Footballguy
If VJ signs for 300k that has to be a low pick tender. Can another team offer the tender picks now if VJ signs for 300k?
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
You're the one who specifically referred to the first round picks, even noting the exact 1st round draft slot.The roster Smith took over in 2003 as a result of all the 1st rounders you refer to (including the high slots in later rounds) resulted in a 4-12 season. That would seem to indicate a roster void of talent, as opposed to one overloaded. I don't know what to tell you. 
Since AJ's been the GM, the Bolts have gone from an NFL joke to one of the winningest franchises. Like every GM, Smith has misfired in the draft, but more often than not he's made excellent decisions on who to draft, which FA's to sign, which undrafted FA's to target, and which Chargers deserve long term extensions. VJax fantasy owners can be pissed, but arguing that AJ Smith is an idiot seems like a ridiculous position considering his track record.
az_prof
Footballguy
If he thinks Jackson is worth 'all that,' then why didn't he show him the money himself? And if he doesn't, why does he expect some other team to give up multiple high picks for a guy that may only play 12 games for them? The market spoke, and Jackson isn't 'all that.'Max Power said:Sure they count, but draft pick trades is just a numbers game for the most part. They are probably some of the easiest deals to get done, besides a player for a late round pick. This is kind of getting off point. I don't think AJ is generally "unreasonable" when it comes to contracts and trades. In this case however, I don't like how he played his cards. So back to the original point I was trying to make, just because he has made some trades in the past, don't mean that he isn't be unreasonable in this situation.Gr00vus said:So trades during the draft don't count?Max Power said:
Gr00vus
Footballguy
They Chargers said all along they'd negotiate, but Jackson's representation didn't budge from their initial demands, which the Chargers weren't going to accept. That was in relation to talking about a long term deal. So the Chargers put out the first tender offer, and in accordance with league rules the reduced second tender offer in hopes it'd spur negotiations. Subsequent statements by A.J. and Spanos lead me to believe they'd still be open to negotiations. I don't know how flexible they'd be there at this point, but at no time have the Chargers "closed the door." They've said all along they'd like to have Jackson (and McNeil) playing. It's been Jackson and his agents making the ultimatum type statements.
er, they said 'once the tender goes down, it's NEVER going back up'they've also publicly said they will never negotiate unless they sign the tenderdoor seems pretty firmly slammed to me
Sam Quentin
Footballguy
so AJ offers substantially less than Brandon Marshall money, but want BM compensation?Don't you see that he's the hypocrite here?Jeremy said:VJax reportedly wanted Brandon Marshall type money, but when AJ Smith basically said "fine. Then I want Brandon Marshal type compensation in a trade." it's "unethical" and "unreasonable".
No, the old CBA, including the provisions pertaining to an uncapped year, was written before VJ signed his contract and was incorporated into his contract. The rules didn't change suddenly. VJ would have no chance at this point to challenge the provisions of the CBA that he agreed to when he signed his contract.
AJ didn't suspend Gates any more than he's currently suspending Jackson; and he didn't have the power to un-suspend Gates any more than he currently has the power to un-suspend Jackson.
AJ doesn't have to trade Jackson if he doesn't want to, just like VJ doesn't have to play this season if he doesn't want to.You may disagree with one or both of their decisions, but neither is acting hypocritically.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
VJax is worth more money - three times as much if you believe the reports - than the Chargers were willing to pay him. So he's holding out to be paid as such.What's AJ's angle here? How does not trading him make the Chargers better?
Marshall isn't great as a basis of hypocrisy, since the trade to Miami only occurred after Denver wasn't willing to pay him what he wanted in his restricted free agency year.so AJ offers substantially less than Brandon Marshall money, but want BM compensation?Don't you see that he's the hypocrite here?Jeremy said:VJax reportedly wanted Brandon Marshall type money, but when AJ Smith basically said "fine. Then I want Brandon Marshal type compensation in a trade." it's "unethical" and "unreasonable".
Sam Quentin
Footballguy
sure on the one hand he's saying VJ is only worth 3.3 million, but on the other hand ghe's saying he's worth a 2nd and a 4rd.That's hypocritical
Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
Was hoping to hear good news today, guess there's still a few hours left till the deadline
