General Malaise
Footballguy
What is the major difference between legalized sports gambling and playing fantasy football?
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Article In The Atlantic: Legalizing Sports Gambling Was A Huge Mistake (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
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jm192
Footballguy
Call 1-800-Gambler.
jm192
Footballguy
Am I reading this right? States are making 500 million dollars per quarter? 2 BILLION in a year? Even at 500 million, it seems like a huge paradox.
The state of Kentucky generated 31 million in taxes in the 1st year. I think that's great, and is money the state needs. People could already go to near by states and gamble. As others have said, at the end of the day, it comes down to personal responsibility.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
And the converse is all of that $ disappearing into the pockets of black market bookies.
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
It’s a matter of personal liberty and choice.
I’m sure there’s other issues scolds at places like the Atlantic vouch for other degeneracy to be normalized so no matter how “respected” they are, their opinion might as well be written on water.
I don’t doubt this created some new problem gamblers. But I also don’t doubt the vast majority of them would have found problem gambling one way or the other.
I’m sure there’s other issues scolds at places like the Atlantic vouch for other degeneracy to be normalized so no matter how “respected” they are, their opinion might as well be written on water.
I don’t doubt this created some new problem gamblers. But I also don’t doubt the vast majority of them would have found problem gambling one way or the other.
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
I don’t know what the “difference” is, but one is a relatively sunk cost minus say transaction fees and one is a rhythmic beast that feeds itself with chasing. It’s why Sunday night and monday night are then biggest handles of the week
FairWarning
Footballguy
More like 5% - You need to win AND have money management. The dirty little industry secret is books like DK will boot winning bettors.
eighsse2
Footballguy
I think it is right for it to be legal. But you have to get the word out on how dangerous it is. I have greedy tendencies with open-ended things like this. So whenever I have gotten into "gamble" type things (e.g., sports betting, buying large amounts of single stocks, day trading), I very quickly go way too far. Because when you win, you don't want to regret not putting more money into it. So you go hard.
Many mistakes later, and the only gambling I do is my $50 entry dynasty league and maybe a super bowl square or whatever. No sports betting for income purposes. No single stocks. No day trading. Just index funds, which is hardly a gamble at all.
renesauz
IBL Representative
I already noted the difference, though it's admittedly a fairly fine line. ADDICTS can't wait 4 months for their returns being the key difference. But there are others...in most fantasy leagues, a several month long week to week maintenance is required, and the vast majority of leagues the time commitment is too large vs the potential rewards to fulfill the addiction.
There's an age old argument regarding whether or not traditional fantasy sports even fit the definition of gambling at all. I don't think we need to rehash that argument here, but it's pretty darn clear that they aren't the same.
Soulfly3
Footballguy
I bet the nfl HATES the legalization of sports gambling. It's definitely hurt their bottom line, there's no doubt about it... The league hasn't been this financially unsuccessful in its entire existence. They'll definitely make changes to help their product and the families they're destroying. 
rockaction
Footballguy
No money need change hands in fantasy football. I play in a Zealots league that is designed specifically to make gambling against the rules. So there's a demand for both the outlet of knowledge and the competition that goes along with fantasy football without the payouts and all that jazz.
I refuse to gamble on fantasy. It makes me less of a player and caps my ceiling of knowledge, but it's a tradeoff that I make.
Wigglytuff's Gruff
Footballguy
Has been legal in the UK for the entirety of my life.
I worked in a bookies for a few years. The fixed odds betting machines were the worst for people losing money fast and dangerously but I know some guys (one of them a professional footballer) who lost basically everything gambling on sports on their phone.
The issue is the messaging around it. It's all marketed as fun and bright lights and glamour, and it's utterly ****ing relentless as well, seems to be basically everywhere, all the time, constantly reminding you to bet on something. That's the part that needs to change I feel. You can't put it back in the box now anyway.
I worked in a bookies for a few years. The fixed odds betting machines were the worst for people losing money fast and dangerously but I know some guys (one of them a professional footballer) who lost basically everything gambling on sports on their phone.
The issue is the messaging around it. It's all marketed as fun and bright lights and glamour, and it's utterly ****ing relentless as well, seems to be basically everywhere, all the time, constantly reminding you to bet on something. That's the part that needs to change I feel. You can't put it back in the box now anyway.
habsfan
Footballguy
This is where I am personally but one thing I've been thinking about lately is the waters the league has waded into with fantasy and gambling.
As it stands, I really wish I'd had a better idea of what was really wrong with Keenan Allen before my draft (for example). If I was putting real money on this, I might be pissed. Then there's the CMC folks...
rockaction
Footballguy
I didn't think it was bad for the league to get into rotisserie. In fact, I think that's been a great move. But embracing rotisserie seems to have opened the door and paved the way to normalize the league getting involved in gambling, which I personally think is the worst decision it might ever have made.
Assuming you're talking about a yearly league vs. DFS in fantasy football you're setting aside a fixed amount of money each year, so there's a maximum loss for that season which presumably can be reasonably lost. With legalized gambling the losses are limitless.
habsfan
Footballguy
Fantasy players can take an unacceptable amount of financial risk at the beginning of a fantasy season, fixed or otherwise. It doesn't need to be "limitless".
well sure, it's possible but i'm willing to bet that 99/100 people who run into gambling problems don't only play season long fantasy football.
JAA
Footballguy
Oh god do I feel old now
JAA
Footballguy
In all fairness, not everyone is born with the tools to navigate this without help.
Our societies ability to lift up each other for common good is why we are the alpha species.
JAA
Footballguy
And let’s be fair, lots of predatory adds across the board
JAA
Footballguy
People have been addicted forever. Addiction is not new thing and it isn’t going away.
We as a society also must decide the role we play in supporting our brethren when they must navigate situations for which they themselves were not born the needed tools to do so.
JAA
Footballguy
This is nothing new.
NOT GETTING POLITICAL HERE …
But anyone with a large enough megaphone can incite discourse and sow distrust in large entities. This is a problem. I’m all for free speech, but I’m all for the law which states “you cannot scream FIRE in a crowded theatre unless there is a FIRE”
JAA
Footballguy
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Kind of like that chirp people get when their phones are telling them they have a message. People seem to have to reach for it and look and perhaps respond. I'd be willing to bet 90% of teenagers have their phone next to them when they go to bed and wake up to look at it when it chirps. Hell, i leave my phone downstairs most of the time and forget to take it with me half the time when I go somewhere. I certainly don't feel the need to look every time it chirps at me with a message. I've had my wife get mad at me because I don't respond fast enough if she sends me a text while away. I know, what about emergencies!!! The point is that some people get a dopamine rush every time their phone chirps at them.
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InDitkaWeTrust
Footballguy
March Madness was still just as, um, mad as it ever has been. If ticket prices on the secondary are any indication, there's not shortage of people wanted to see the games. I attended a regional final and the final four / championship games and it was PACKED.
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
Sports betting is visible and there's a boom of advertising. People talk about it, its discussed on TV and online. But unless you're deep in parlays or futures, you are in the range of a 50/50 wager on a sports bet.
You want to see unhealthy gambling that anyone seriously concered about gambling would have first on their list: scratch offs. Atrocious return, round the clock access and usually able to play them out of a machine. Pure dopamine rush. Awful return.
But the Atlantic isn't writing that article because its not splash enough.
You want to see unhealthy gambling that anyone seriously concered about gambling would have first on their list: scratch offs. Atrocious return, round the clock access and usually able to play them out of a machine. Pure dopamine rush. Awful return.
But the Atlantic isn't writing that article because its not splash enough.
cheese
Footballguy
I actually don’t think this is the main problem. Young people are less into watching sports than ever and I think it’s mostly their dads driving the industry.
I do see problems with it though. This is probably closer to legalizing meth than it is legalizing weed if we’re talking about addiction and the harm done to many abusers. But I’m being a hypocrite. I bet on games all the time.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
I would equate year long fantasy (with money involved) to future bets, which have a similar timeline of having to wait on any potential payouts.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Oh man. Yesterday I was in line at my corner store - needed some tonic for G&T’s - shady dude at the counter holding up the line having them check like 30 tickets, and then bought another 20 or so.
After he bought them, he stood there next to the line scratching them off. He had it bad.
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
I agree that most people could casually lose money slowly betting straight bets, but they don't. Most people bet parlays, which have exponentially worse ROI. A five leg SGP is essentially the sports betting equivalent of a lotto ticket.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
They're writing the article because online sports gambling is creating social problems that just weren't there to the same degree with scratch-offs. Sometimes one thing really does have worse consequences than some other thing.
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
Mathematically, a lotto ticket is a worse investment than the typical bet a customer places on a Sunday afternoon. But psychologically they're much different. A scratch-off ticket is inanimate. The buyer knows (presumably) that it's totally random whether a given ticket will be a winner, they have no control over the situation and they're just chasing the high of scratching off a winner. I know there are addiction problems there and some people probably do react violently to losing their scratch-offs but I don't know if that's a major problem.
Betting on sports makes the customer feel like they have some influence over the outcome. "I watch a lot of sports," Joe Sixpack thinks. "I know CeeDee Lamb is going to score a TD today." And when CeeDee Lamb does score, not only do they maybe win back a little money, but it makes them feel smart and validated - feelings they might otherwise be missing in their lives. And when CeeDee drops the ball in the end zone, or is tackled at the 1 and gets his TD vultured away, or is interfered with but the ref doesn't throw the flag, the customer is mad. "It's not my fault I lost my bet. It's Lamb's / the coach's / the ref's / Taylor Swift's / someone else's fault." The emotional swings involved in sweating a sports bet dwarf the experience of buying a lotto ticket. It wouldn't surprise me at all if sports betting is correlated to increases in things like domestic violence where lotto tickets aren't. It's very easy to imagine the kind of person dumb enough to bet an 8-leg SGP on a Sunday taking it out on his wife when one of those legs loses.
Betting on sports makes the customer feel like they have some influence over the outcome. "I watch a lot of sports," Joe Sixpack thinks. "I know CeeDee Lamb is going to score a TD today." And when CeeDee Lamb does score, not only do they maybe win back a little money, but it makes them feel smart and validated - feelings they might otherwise be missing in their lives. And when CeeDee drops the ball in the end zone, or is tackled at the 1 and gets his TD vultured away, or is interfered with but the ref doesn't throw the flag, the customer is mad. "It's not my fault I lost my bet. It's Lamb's / the coach's / the ref's / Taylor Swift's / someone else's fault." The emotional swings involved in sweating a sports bet dwarf the experience of buying a lotto ticket. It wouldn't surprise me at all if sports betting is correlated to increases in things like domestic violence where lotto tickets aren't. It's very easy to imagine the kind of person dumb enough to bet an 8-leg SGP on a Sunday taking it out on his wife when one of those legs loses.
Insein
Footballguy
Not to side track but you can scream fire in a crowded theater.
Yes, you can yell 'fire' in a crowded theater
Though it is a popular misconception, it's perfectly legal to yell "fire" in a crowded theatre. However, Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito hasn't seemed
reason.com
"The phrase, though an oft-repeated axiom in debates about the First Amendment, is simply not the law of the land now, nor has it ever been—something made all the more apparent when Schenk v. United States was largely overturned in 1969 by Brandenburg v. Ohio.
"Anyone who says 'you can't shout fire! in a crowded theatre' is showing that they don't know much about the principles of free speech, or free speech law—or history," Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression President Greg Lukianoff wrote in 2021. "This old canard, a favorite reference of censorship apologists, needs to be retired. It's repeatedly and inappropriately used to justify speech limitations."
They aren't stealing anyone's money. Nobody is forced into doing this by gunpoint. This is my problem with this argument for taking it away. Nobody has to do any gambling. It is 100% an individual choice.
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
Eh, usually yeah, but there's some nuance there. If you falsely scream fire and cause a stampede and someone dies, or you waste public resources responding to a fake emergency, you can in fact be charged with a crime. It's not explicitly illegal to scream fire in a theater but it all depends on the context.
Wigglytuff's Gruff
Footballguy
Yes, I think this is a very well made point and post generally. That particular mindset also encourages one of the most dangerous type of action which is chasing losses. I saw this so often. You'd see people do money line accumulators (you guys call them parlays) on multiple teams, lose by 1 result and somehow think it was bad luck and their process was correct, then double down to win it back on another set of games.
It was obviously the antithesis of my job but every so often I'd show someone who I actually liked and thought would listen the stats just to help them snap out their delusion. We took 500 parlay bets today, there were 10 winners. Of the 490 which lost, 350 of them were by 1 result. That's how it works. There's a guaranteed upset every week that 90% of people slip into their bets like it's a given.
But again, it's all small fry compared to what you can do on your phone on in play betting. I think that's where people I have known get into trouble have really lost money. That's where people feel like they have genuine control, during the ebbs and flows of a live game, like they can somehow predict what's going to happen with any reliability. When you don't have to hand over a card or real cash it doesn't feel like it's real money. The genuine addicts I've seen actually don't treat money as if it is money, it's gambling credit. They don't see $2000 as a mortgage payment and the monthly shopping. It's 20 $100 bets they can place. It's really sick at it's worst.
Ignoratio Elenchi
Footballguy
Agreed and in-play betting is even worse in the US where TV delays are longer than they are elsewhere. Not that most of these bettors are putting any real thought into it anyway, but live betting an event from your couch where the thing you're streaming on Youtube is like 40+ seconds behind real-time is insane to me. But somehow people love it.
Gold Fox
Footballguy
I was watching football with my teenage son last week (he's gotten very interested in fantasy football last year), and another one of those Draft Kings commercials came on. It was a good time to talk to him about gambling, and I made it very clear to him that I do not ever use any of those Draft King / MGM Bets / daily gambling sites. It's a dangerous path to be gambling on a weekly/daily basis. It's a very bad habit. I explained to him that I make a small one-time investment to play FF at the start of the season, and that is all that's needed for me to enjoy a season of football.
Majority of adult entertainment options have some kind of potential negative consequence.
With a few obvious exceptions I have never liked laws dictating what people can do for their entertainment or with their lives. Drugs, alcohol, gambling, porn, etc, etc. None of these things are really positive for society, but I will always be in favor of letting people make their own choices, with again a few obvious exceptions.
With a few obvious exceptions I have never liked laws dictating what people can do for their entertainment or with their lives. Drugs, alcohol, gambling, porn, etc, etc. None of these things are really positive for society, but I will always be in favor of letting people make their own choices, with again a few obvious exceptions.
BassNBrew
Footballguy
Infiltrated the middle and rich classes instead of just the poor.
JAA
Footballguy
Thank you for sharing this. It forced me to look at the specifics of the language used and why this illustration is often leveraged.Not to side track but you can scream fire in a crowded theater.
Yes, you can yell 'fire' in a crowded theater
Though it is a popular misconception, it's perfectly legal to yell "fire" in a crowded theatre. However, Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito hasn't seemed
"The phrase, though an oft-repeated axiom in debates about the First Amendment, is simply not the law of the land now, nor has it ever been—something made all the more apparent when Schenk v. United States was largely overturned in 1969 by Brandenburg v. Ohio.
"Anyone who says 'you can't shout fire! in a crowded theatre' is showing that they don't know much about the principles of free speech, or free speech law—or history," Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression President Greg Lukianoff wrote in 2021. "This old canard, a favorite reference of censorship apologists, needs to be retired. It's repeatedly and inappropriately used to justify speech limitations."
All that said, I respectfully find your response a bit pedantic as we all well know the implication is the outcome of the speech: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_theater
Harry Frogfish
Footballguy
You really think they would shut it down? LOL, this isn't the Test forum.
jm192
Footballguy
I have accounts on DraftKings, FanDuel, and Caesar's Sportsbook.
I usually bet on Thursday Night Football, College Football Saturdays, Sunday NFL games, Sunday Night Football, and Monday night Football. Most of my betting happens during football season because this is what I know enough about to actually do well.
All of that to say, you can certainly do it and not develop a problem. I would venture to guess most people on the sports betting apps DON'T have a gambling problem. Some do.
But I don't think the answer is to ban everything to protect society from themselves. I'm in favor of a society where you can make your own decisions on these sorts of things. Cigarrettes are bad and addicting and expensive. We let people choose to smoke. Alcohol is addicting and bad for your health. We let people choose to drink.
I usually bet on Thursday Night Football, College Football Saturdays, Sunday NFL games, Sunday Night Football, and Monday night Football. Most of my betting happens during football season because this is what I know enough about to actually do well.
All of that to say, you can certainly do it and not develop a problem. I would venture to guess most people on the sports betting apps DON'T have a gambling problem. Some do.
But I don't think the answer is to ban everything to protect society from themselves. I'm in favor of a society where you can make your own decisions on these sorts of things. Cigarrettes are bad and addicting and expensive. We let people choose to smoke. Alcohol is addicting and bad for your health. We let people choose to drink.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
The 10-11 poker sites that were shut down on Black Friday in 2011 weren't test forums either
Waco wasn't a test forum either but when the United States Government wants to shut it down, they absolutely can
You can believe whatever you want, laugh at my statement but several people seemed to agree with me.
And I'm suggesting the Government is planning a shutdown, I'm simply saying if they want to do it, they'll do it
In Florida for example, the big app is the Hard Rock app which to my knowledge is controlled the Seminoles so that might be excluded
But I don't think all sports app are being run by Native Americans just like not ALL poker sites went defunct in 2011, although online poker in the US was forever changed
Harry Frogfish
Footballguy
Time will tell. But if you think the NFL is going back on gambling somehow, I think you've got another thing coming.
The horse has left the barn buddy. And it ain't coming back. $$$
Banger
Footballguy
I have a few buddies that are big time gamblers and one of the worst things is that after they've taken a beating and lost big or won big and pulled a big chunk of money out these sites are relentless with their promotions to get you back in and betting again. It's pretty sick and no different than a drug dealer giving a freebie to a struggling addict. They know exactly what they are doing. If that doesn't work, the sales guys will offer tickets / box seats to get you betting again. It's non-stop.
Another thing that is profoundly disturbing is that a huge % of college males bet constantly and WELL above what they can afford to lose. He has many, many friends that bet hundreds on game after game after game. Bet sizes I would not be comfortable with and I make a fine living. It always starts with football and soon enough they are betting soccer, baseball, basketball and hockey...then prop bets and parlay after parlay. It's pretty insane and scary that there's a generation growing up where this is "normal".
Another thing that is profoundly disturbing is that a huge % of college males bet constantly and WELL above what they can afford to lose. He has many, many friends that bet hundreds on game after game after game. Bet sizes I would not be comfortable with and I make a fine living. It always starts with football and soon enough they are betting soccer, baseball, basketball and hockey...then prop bets and parlay after parlay. It's pretty insane and scary that there's a generation growing up where this is "normal".
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