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Boycott Indiana? (1 Viewer)

Even more priceless:

GILMORE|4.2.15 @ 2:13PM|#

honestly, the only way to undermine the mob is to use their own hysteria against them.

such as = check out Gawker-writer's favorite lunch spots in NYC, and go ask them all if they cater gay-weddings.

I'm pretty sure you'd probably get a little awkwardness @ Mahmood's Falafel, etc.
 
Am I the only one who thinks pizza at a wedding would be a GOOD idea? I'm ready for this change to happen.

 
I'll just keep posting, because this is an easy issue.

The margins were even larger in opposition to laws that proposed "penalties or fines for individuals who refuse to provide wedding-related services to same sex couples even if their refusal is based on their religious beliefs." No Democrat is seriously proposing this; the nearest cultural analogue may be the story of Memories Pizza, the Indiana shop whose owner said that he would decline to provide pies to gay weddings, and saw its Yelp! page firebombed with angry comments. (The popularity of delivery pizza at gay wedding ceremonials is well known.) Still, according to Marist, Americans oppose penalties on businesses like Memories by a 65-31 margin. The margin among Democrats: 62-34 against. - Dave Weigel, Bloomberg

 
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gay rights supporters [sh]ould heed the advice of gay marriage’s intellectual progenitor, Andrew Sullivan, and let the dissenters opt out “in the name of their freedom — and ours.”

-ThinkProgress

 
Rod Dreher:

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/into-the-christian-closet/

“This is not the Indiana I remember as a kid,” said David Letterman last night about the new RFRA. This is a guy born in 1947, old enough to have already been in elementary school before Brown v. Board of Education was decided, who was well into his 40s before the first gay-marriage blip appeared on a state’s judicial radar. But that’s the way most people on my side of this issue roll these days. Culturally we’re in the midst of a great forgetting, where those who were themselves agnostic about SSM or even opposed to it 15 minutes ago simply cannot imagine a mindset that would be agnostic about, or opposed to, the practice. Either Letterman’s memory has wiped clean his own decades-long tacit complicity in traditional marriage as the only legitimate form or he hasn’t realized yet that the reason he doesn’t remember stuff like this happening when he was a kid is because gay Hoosiers had little choice at the time but to stay deep, deep, deep in the closet. The suggestion that Indiana is less accommodating to gays now, when reporters have to go door to door in small towns to find even one business willing to deny service to them, than it was in the 1950s is revisionism so egregious that gay-rights activists should be in his face about it, insisting that he recognize what America used to be like for them." - Allahpundit

Allahpundit is in favor of gay marriage, per Dreher's article.

 
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By the way, I'm not Christian, nor do I hate gays.

I hate you totalitarian SJW ####ers.

And I love pizza. Any kind. Don't mess with my pizza.

 
Dude, you're reposting internet comments. Not articles or even blog posts, but comments. Most people know better than to even read the comments. "Don't read the comments" is like the golden rule of the internet.

Take it easy, man. Everything's good. I promise you, nobody's gonna firebomb a pizza place because they don't serve their pizza at a gay wedding. Our nation is moving in the right direction on gay rights issues. It's Friday. It's spring. Be happy.

 
Dude, you're reposting internet comments. Not articles or even blog posts, but comments. Most people know better than to even read the comments. "Don't read the comments" is like the golden rule of the internet.

Take it easy, man. Everything's good. I promise you, nobody's gonna firebomb a pizza place because they don't serve their pizza at a gay wedding. Our nation is moving in the right direction on gay rights issues. It's Friday. It's spring. Be happy.
All night bender?

 
Dude, you're reposting internet comments. Not articles or even blog posts, but comments. Most people know better than to even read the comments. "Don't read the comments" is like the golden rule of the internet.

Take it easy, man. Everything's good. I promise you, nobody's gonna firebomb a pizza place because they don't serve their pizza at a gay wedding. Our nation is moving in the right direction on gay rights issues. It's Friday. It's spring. Be happy.
Heh. I gotcha. I also am very calm, and waiting for a flight back East. And I thought of your very criticism. Believe me. But the comments are kind of brilliant in their own way, and reflect a state of mind of a particular influential magazine that has undertaken a radical transformation in the past year. It sounds nuts to repost a comment, but I think I explicitly pointed out why a shift in a diehard commentariat that was previously disposed to gay marriage might be significant. If it's bad etiquette, I'll delete the offending posts.

Also, aren't we commenters at the FFA? Don't we hope our community reads our comments? If someone posts something brilliant here or helps me out with a question or trumps me in a debate, I remember. If I had a paper to write, I'd cite certain comments here. I'd have no problem with it.

Heck, Tobias, Halbig v. Burwell stemmed from an internet comment. Because CEI and Volokh read it. So, the first rule, broken, wound up as a Supreme Court case. Dude really left that comment about Gruber at Volokh, a guy from the Competitive Enterprise Institute read it, and you've got a serious court case on your hands.

How much more serious and democratic can you get than that?

 
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Dude, you're reposting internet comments. Not articles or even blog posts, but comments. Most people know better than to even read the comments. "Don't read the comments" is like the golden rule of the internet.

Take it easy, man. Everything's good. I promise you, nobody's gonna firebomb a pizza place because they don't serve their pizza at a gay wedding. Our nation is moving in the right direction on gay rights issues. It's Friday. It's spring. Be happy.
All night bender?
I ran out, actually. I think I was a little deep. But I kind of stand by it. I guess it helps to have known how hostile the typical reason poster was in the marriage equality/non-recognition debate over the past eight years.

 
Dude, you're reposting internet comments. Not articles or even blog posts, but comments. Most people know better than to even read the comments. "Don't read the comments" is like the golden rule of the internet.

Take it easy, man. Everything's good. I promise you, nobody's gonna firebomb a pizza place because they don't serve their pizza at a gay wedding. Our nation is moving in the right direction on gay rights issues. It's Friday. It's spring. Be happy.
Heh. I gotcha. I also am very calm, and waiting for a flight back East. And I thought of your very criticism. Believe me. But the comments are kind of brilliant in their own way, and reflect a state of mind of a particular influential magazine that has undertaken a radical transformation in the past year. It sounds nuts to repost a comment, but I think explicitly pointed out a shift in a diehard commentariat that was previously disposed to gay marriage is significant.

Also, aren't we commenters at the FFA? Don't we hope our community reads our comments? If someone posts something brilliant here or helps me out with a question or trumps me in a debate, I remember. If I had a paper to write, I'd cite certain comments here. I'd have no problem with it.

Heck, Tobias, Halbig v. Burwell stemmed from an internet comment. Because CEI and Volokh read it. So, the first rule, broken, wound up as a Supreme Court case. Dude really left that comment about Gruber at Volokh, a guy from the Competitive Enterprise Institute read it, and you've got a serious court case on your hands.

How much more serious and democratic can you get than that?
Some comments and message boards have value, some don't. My point is that a handful of comments- or even a hundred of them- are never reflective of how millions of people actually feel. I would never pull a few racist/homophobic rants from the comment sections on a civil rights article (and you and I both know there's always at least a few) and hold it up as indicative of the state of mind of most conservatives. I assume you would think it was really unfair and intellectually dishonest if I did something like that. I'm just saying you should extend the same courtesy in the other direction.

 
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Dude, you're reposting internet comments. Not articles or even blog posts, but comments. Most people know better than to even read the comments. "Don't read the comments" is like the golden rule of the internet.

Take it easy, man. Everything's good. I promise you, nobody's gonna firebomb a pizza place because they don't serve their pizza at a gay wedding. Our nation is moving in the right direction on gay rights issues. It's Friday. It's spring. Be happy.
Heh. I gotcha. I also am very calm, and waiting for a flight back East. And I thought of your very criticism. Believe me. But the comments are kind of brilliant in their own way, and reflect a state of mind of a particular influential magazine that has undertaken a radical transformation in the past year. It sounds nuts to repost a comment, but I think explicitly pointed out a shift in a diehard commentariat that was previously disposed to gay marriage is significant.

Also, aren't we commenters at the FFA? Don't we hope our community reads our comments? If someone posts something brilliant here or helps me out with a question or trumps me in a debate, I remember. If I had a paper to write, I'd cite certain comments here. I'd have no problem with it.

Heck, Tobias, Halbig v. Burwell stemmed from an internet comment. Because CEI and Volokh read it. So, the first rule, broken, wound up as a Supreme Court case. Dude really left that comment about Gruber at Volokh, a guy from the Competitive Enterprise Institute read it, and you've got a serious court case on your hands.

How much more serious and democratic can you get than that?
Some comments and message boards have value, some don't. My point is that a handful of them- or even a hundred of them- are never reflective of how millions of people actually feel. I would never pull a few racist/homophobic rants from the comment sections on a civil rights article (and you and I both know there's always at least a few) and hold it up as indicative of the state of mind of most conservatives. I assume you would think it was really unfair and intellectually dishonest if I did something like that. I'm just saying you should extend the same courtesy in the other direction.
Okay. Let me limit it thusly: I would urge people to read the comments and articles related to gay marriage at reason magazine from around 2011-2015 if they want a libertarian perspective. I think I provided a representative sample -- and a sort of radical shift in tone -- from Matt Welch's article comment section. There will always be dissenters, and always the silent majority, more comfortable with silence than broadcasting.

That said, reason has begun to see the problem with its own stance on gay marriage with respect to private businesses and compulsory services, and has started to cover those issues more extensively than they did a few years ago, when some of us -- and I consider myself a libertarian/conservative fusionist and commenter over there -- howled that this was the direction that activists would take.

But I guess enough said. If people think the comments should be deleted, PM me. I'll certainly consider it. I just think some of the comments capture the tone, movement, and intellectual problems with not just gay activism, but activism writ large. I find it fascinating.

 
Throughout my life I have praised the Christian God and he has given me everything that I ever wanted. 160,207 Christians raised nearly a half million dollars in opposition against the gays IN ONE DAY (24 HOURS). We have a real shot here.

DON'T LIE DOWN.

We can bury the opposition. No matter what Hollywood tries to promote, we know this isn't right. Why? Because we were born this way. We were born and we were repulsed by homosexual behavior male or female and $500,000 doesn't lie. Don't let your kids or your family become a victim of Hollywood. Support Indiana, support Arkansas and we can destroy big Gay. Don't let them tell you what you know what is right.

You know it's right. Thousands of years ago, your ancestors knew it was right. It's an illness that effects 2 - 3 percent of the population. This is our chance to squash this and send them back where they came from. Don't stop fighting.
Em is the future of the Republican Party.

 
The main thing, IMO, that those Reason quotes show is how extreme the libertarian movement has gotten in recent years. Granted, libertarians were always for freedom of association, and the right of private businesses to discriminate against whoever, but goven existing established laws it was never particularly emphasized. Traditionally the issues that were important to the libertarian movement were macro rather than micro issues: the virtues of the free market on a macro level, free trade, open borders and open immigration, etc.

Today's libertarians seem to be made up mostly of extreme conservatives who complain about the size of drinking cups, reasonable gun limitations, and the right of bakeries to be bigoted.

 
Refusing to make a sign welcoming people to the Klan rally /= refusing to make a sign for a Klan member's kid's birthday party.

 
It sounds like the changes to the law have ended this controversy, for now. LGBT activists would still like to make gays a protected class, and I agree with them, but that's a fight for another day. The current one should be over.

 
The difference in the Indiana law and the other similar laws is that it can be used as a shield to protect businesses from a discrimination lawsuit, a significant difference. Dems tried to amend it to take that part out but were told to piss off. Now with the backlash the state GOP has feigned shock that anyone would think that they meant to allow protection for discrimination -- and not just against gays, but any other group.

Regardless, I do find a degree of irony in self-proclaimed libertarians recoiling in horror as economic pressure has been brought to bear in response in order to change behavior. Isn't that pretty much the entire argument behind "let them discriminate and the market will self-correct it"?

businesses open to the public are required to be open to the whole public. It's not a complicated concept. The same is true in employment and housing. 10 years ago no one cared about gays being excluded. 60 years no one cared about blacks being excluded either. The folks discriminating against blacks back then had no less of a firm conviction and belief they were right.

At the end of day, isn't the argument raised by the defenders of this law really just "separate but equal"?

 
Throughout my life I have praised the Christian God and he has given me everything that I ever wanted. 160,207 Christians raised nearly a half million dollars in opposition against the gays IN ONE DAY (24 HOURS). We have a real shot here.

DON'T LIE DOWN.

We can bury the opposition. No matter what Hollywood tries to promote, we know this isn't right. Why? Because we were born this way. We were born and we were repulsed by homosexual behavior male or female and $500,000 doesn't lie. Don't let your kids or your family become a victim of Hollywood. Support Indiana, support Arkansas and we can destroy big Gay. Don't let them tell you what you know what is right.

You know it's right. Thousands of years ago, your ancestors knew it was right. It's an illness that effects 2 - 3 percent of the population. This is our chance to squash this and send them back where they came from. Don't stop fighting.
What I find funny, is that this pizza company played the media and the Consverative Religious groups. They took advantage of the media to make up a story, Hey we will serve you in the pizza parlor, but we will not cator your gay wedding? Which of course got picked up by the media, and then came the social pounding, that resulted "in them choosing" to close the pizza parlor. And then came the Religous groups, with the Cash to make up for them being "forced" to close the pizza parlor.

Well done Pizza Parlor.

Give me a break this has how can we get famous and get some $$$. All while playig the victim card. America is great!!

 
Throughout my life I have praised the Christian God and he has given me everything that I ever wanted. 160,207 Christians raised nearly a half million dollars in opposition against the gays IN ONE DAY (24 HOURS). We have a real shot here.

DON'T LIE DOWN.

We can bury the opposition. No matter what Hollywood tries to promote, we know this isn't right. Why? Because we were born this way. We were born and we were repulsed by homosexual behavior male or female and $500,000 doesn't lie. Don't let your kids or your family become a victim of Hollywood. Support Indiana, support Arkansas and we can destroy big Gay. Don't let them tell you what you know what is right.

You know it's right. Thousands of years ago, your ancestors knew it was right. It's an illness that effects 2 - 3 percent of the population. This is our chance to squash this and send them back where they came from. Don't stop fighting.
What I find funny, is that this pizza company played the media and the Consverative Religious groups. They took advantage of the media to make up a story, Hey we will serve you in the pizza parlor, but we will not cator your gay wedding? Which of course got picked up by the media, and then came the social pounding, that resulted "in them choosing" to close the pizza parlor. And then came the Religous groups, with the Cash to make up for them being "forced" to close the pizza parlor.

Well done Pizza Parlor.

Give me a break this has how can we get famous and get some $$$. All while playig the victim card. America is great!!
Somewhere PT Barnum is nodding slowly while smiling.

 
I think the more people talk about Big Gay and make light of people asked an innocent question, the less I respect them. I think that this sort of virtual mob, replete with death threats, arson threats, explicit gay penetration on their Yelp! page, etc. is disgusting and subhuman.
The extremists on the side of "big gay" post empty threats on the internet. The anti-gay extremists stage protests at soldier's funerals and occasionally outright murder gay people. I really don't think you want to continue down this ridiculous path of judging an entire movement by its worst actors.

 
Dude, you're reposting internet comments. Not articles or even blog posts, but comments. Most people know better than to even read the comments. "Don't read the comments" is like the golden rule of the internet.

Take it easy, man. Everything's good. I promise you, nobody's gonna firebomb a pizza place because they don't serve their pizza at a gay wedding. Our nation is moving in the right direction on gay rights issues. It's Friday. It's spring. Be happy.
Heh. I gotcha. I also am very calm, and waiting for a flight back East. And I thought of your very criticism. Believe me. But the comments are kind of brilliant in their own way, and reflect a state of mind of a particular influential magazine that has undertaken a radical transformation in the past year. It sounds nuts to repost a comment, but I think explicitly pointed out a shift in a diehard commentariat that was previously disposed to gay marriage is significant.

Also, aren't we commenters at the FFA? Don't we hope our community reads our comments? If someone posts something brilliant here or helps me out with a question or trumps me in a debate, I remember. If I had a paper to write, I'd cite certain comments here. I'd have no problem with it.

Heck, Tobias, Halbig v. Burwell stemmed from an internet comment. Because CEI and Volokh read it. So, the first rule, broken, wound up as a Supreme Court case. Dude really left that comment about Gruber at Volokh, a guy from the Competitive Enterprise Institute read it, and you've got a serious court case on your hands.

How much more serious and democratic can you get than that?
Some comments and message boards have value, some don't. My point is that a handful of them- or even a hundred of them- are never reflective of how millions of people actually feel. I would never pull a few racist/homophobic rants from the comment sections on a civil rights article (and you and I both know there's always at least a few) and hold it up as indicative of the state of mind of most conservatives. I assume you would think it was really unfair and intellectually dishonest if I did something like that. I'm just saying you should extend the same courtesy in the other direction.
Okay. Let me limit it thusly: I would urge people to read the comments and articles related to gay marriage at reason magazine from around 2011-2015 if they want a libertarian perspective. I think I provided a representative sample -- and a sort of radical shift in tone -- from Matt Welch's article comment section. There will always be dissenters, and always the silent majority, more comfortable with silence than broadcasting.

That said, reason has begun to see the problem with its own stance on gay marriage with respect to private businesses and compulsory services, and has started to cover those issues more extensively than they did a few years ago, when some of us -- and I consider myself a libertarian/conservative fusionist and commenter over there -- howled that this was the direction that activists would take.

But I guess enough said. If people think the comments should be deleted, PM me. I'll certainly consider it. I just think some of the comments capture the tone, movement, and intellectual problems with not just gay activism, but activism writ large. I find it fascinating.
No one wants the comments you quoted deleted.

I think you are overstating the issue. This is an emotional debate and folks are very passionate about civil rights, as they should be. We have an awful, awful history in this country and it's embarrassing that this is even an issue in 2015 considering our past.

What do you think you are exposing here? That rhetoric can get a little over the top on the Internet?

 
[SIZE=medium]A bakery in Arizona is facing a religious discrimination complaint after refusing to comply with a customer’s order to decorate a cake shaped like a Bible with the words “God hates gays” and an image of two men holding hands with an “X” over it. What do you think?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]“A homemade anti-gay cake is more meaningful anyway.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Susan Brady –[/SIZE]

Freelance Blogger

[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]“It looks like cakes aren’t the bastion of free speech they once were.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Connor Lucas –[/SIZE]

Charter School Comparer

[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]“I would have wanted a piece with the X.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Doug Stacky –[/SIZE]

Unemployed

 
Walmart Vows To Defend Whichever Gays Buy Their Cheap ####

BENTONVILLE, AR—Despite Governor Asa Hutchinson’s refusal to sign a controversial religious freedom bill that seemed to permit businesses to discriminate against homosexuals, officials from Arkansas-based retailer Walmart announced Wednesday that they would nevertheless continue defending whichever gays buy their cheap ####. “It’s important that any gays who come into our stores and blow money on some horribly constructed ironing board do so knowing that we stand with them in solidarity,” said Walmart spokesman John Kear, adding that the company would not stop pressuring politicians throughout the nation to recognize the rights of people of any sexual orientation who purchase a bunch of their flimsy tupperware that will be completely warped within a month. “If you’re gay and rummage around our $5 DVD bin, or just walk up and down our aisles looking for a pair of $10 unisex clogs, we support you. Respect and equality for those who spend an afternoon shopping for an uneven particle-board coffee table are fundamental values of all of us at Walmart.” Kear added that the matter hits particularly close to home, as he personally knows several gays who buy old produce from his local Walmart’s grocery store.
 
Matt Welch with a ####### outstanding point, and I'll bold it and italicize for anyone having trouble with the psychological make-up of those opposed to not only the laws, but the tactics used to "influence" those people with dissenting opinions. From a long-time gay marriage advocate.

"The bad news, for those of us on the suddenly victorious side of the gay marriage debate, is that too many people are acting like sore winners, not merely content with the revolutionary step of removing state discrimination against same-sex couples in the legal recognition of marriage, but seeking to use state power to punish anyone who refuses to lend their business services to wedding ceremonies they find objectionable. That's not persuasion, that's force, and force tends to be the anti-persuasion among those who are on the receiving end of it."
This whole Memories Pizza thing is just another example of public shaming.....de rigueur for social media in 2015. It's the business equivalent of Justine Sacco, IMO.

 
GoFundMe site is so great. I can't believe I underestimated the stupidity of the anti-gay movement. I thought they'd just line up outside the place, but no. They've given over $100,000 to some guy who lives in Texas, has nothing to do with the restaurant and has given no indication at all of what he intends to do with the money.

Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American social conservative
You can say that again, smart guy. $600,000 to a guy who asks for money to "relieve the financial loss" of people he's never met who live a thousand miles away who went on TV and said they wouldn't deliver pizzas to a gay wedding.

Meanwhile, elsewhere in Indiana:

INDIANAPOLIS -

For almost 30 years, the Dayspring Center in downtown Indianapolis has helped homeless families with shelter and basic needs. Now, its executive director says it is in a crisis, with dwindling donations and a growing need.

"We've had to dip into our endowment in order just to make it. But those funds are running out as well. So now we're at a stage where we are really going to have to consider what the next step is," said Dayspring Center Executive Director Lori Casson.

Their options include cutting services or closing their doors.

"We currently are in a crisis situation as far as finances are concerned. The demand for our services is up, however our donations and capital are down," Casson said.

The first program on the chopping block would be the center's case management program which provides follow up and support so clients do not return to homelessness. Dayspring is a unique shelter. It is one of the only local programs that can help an entire family at a time.

For the past four months, Dayspring has been home for Aja Johnson and her two daughters.

"Sometimes we don't always say anything because we are embarrassed, or we can't find the help, so we kind of suffer quietly," Johnson said.

Jonson has two degrees. She had a good job until she was diagnosed with Lupus. She could no longer work or afford her medical bills, but she found Dayspring.

"There are times when I am not able to walk for weeks at a time, so either living under a bridge probably, or my mom would have the kids. I don't know honestly where I would be at," Johnson said.

About 14 families are housed at Dayspring at a time, they help 150-200 families a year. They receive 400-500 requests for help each month.

"It's difficult when you think about the number of families, and the number of children that will not receive services because Dayspring would not be here. It's a tragedy," Casson said.

"You never plan for things to happen, so if something does happen, you never know when you might need a service like this," Johnson said.

At least five jobs at Dayspring are also at risk, if the shelter can no longer fund their case management program. Casson says the real challenge could come after the holidays, when less people are willing to give time and money.

"It's so easy to help. It's not that difficult. It's not that time consuming and it's so easily done. And I think a lot of people just don't realize how easy it is," said Dayspring volunteer Heidi Feick.

In 2000, the shelter had to shut its doors for three to four months when the well ran dry. Less than one percent of their funding comes from the federal, state and local governments.
Link for donations to the Dayspring Center

 
32 Counter Pass said:
This is where I pretty much shake my head in amazement. These are very poor examlpes of threats to "personal freedom." Personal freedoms extend to the tip of each individual's nose and no further. Once these individuals CHOOSE to go into business in the public domain their belief system stops at said tip of nose.
Well, in the most general sense, your freedom is restricted anytime you are prohibited from doing something you want to do or compelled to do something you don't. The Oregon baker wanted to make cakes for opposite-sex weddings and didn't want to make cakes for same-sex weddings. They couldn't do both, so their freedom was restricted.

Of course, by this definition, nearly every law on the books restricts freedom in some way or another. What Huckabee is really objecting to isn't the attack on freedom in the abstract, but the attack on freedom in this specific situation where he feels it is unjustified.

 
Throughout my life I have praised the Christian God and he has given me everything that I ever wanted. 160,207 Christians raised nearly a half million dollars in opposition against the gays IN ONE DAY (24 HOURS). We have a real shot here.

DON'T LIE DOWN.

We can bury the opposition. No matter what Hollywood tries to promote, we know this isn't right. Why? Because we were born this way. We were born and we were repulsed by homosexual behavior male or female and $500,000 doesn't lie. Don't let your kids or your family become a victim of Hollywood. Support Indiana, support Arkansas and we can destroy big Gay. Don't let them tell you what you know what is right.

You know it's right. Thousands of years ago, your ancestors knew it was right. It's an illness that effects 2 - 3 percent of the population. This is our chance to squash this and send them back where they came from. Don't stop fighting.
Em is the future of the Republican Party.
Unfortunately for EM and the rest of his ilk, Jesus Christ is part of the opposition.

 
The main thing, IMO, that those Reason quotes show is how extreme the libertarian movement has gotten in recent years. Granted, libertarians were always for freedom of association, and the right of private businesses to discriminate against whoever, but goven existing established laws it was never particularly emphasized. Traditionally the issues that were important to the libertarian movement were macro rather than micro issues: the virtues of the free market on a macro level, free trade, open borders and open immigration, etc.

Today's libertarians seem to be made up mostly of extreme conservatives who complain about the size of drinking cups, reasonable gun limitations, and the right of bakeries to be bigoted.
My tone is not one of anger, but of disbelief about your first bolded comment. Libertarians have always been extreme. This is almost a tautological statement. You really thought libertarians weren't concerned with micro issues? That's wildly inaccurate. Libertarians have always been willing to use individual and anecdotal evidence to prove their larger points about government. Big Data and the Bureau of Statistics never ran the movement, at least since I've been involved dating back to the early '90s.

The latter bolded statement is simply the (yours especially) trick of shifting premises and framing. I could say, that on a personal level, libertarians are concerned with onerous consumer restrictions, unconstitutional gun restriction, and freedom of association. This isn't a tomato or to-mah-to issue.

I think your claims about being a libertarian on this board are well-documented, and bring about the predictable mockery. I think the shtick of "I can't believe that I used to be a libertarian but now write soliloquies to Hillary Clinton" is played a bit.

You're a leftist moderate who expresses shock at that which has always been. The "shift" in libertarian thinking never happened. You shifted.

 
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[SIZE=medium]A bakery in Arizona is facing a religious discrimination complaint after refusing to comply with a customer’s order to decorate a cake shaped like a Bible with the words “God hates gays” and an image of two men holding hands with an “X” over it. What do you think?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]“A homemade anti-gay cake is more meaningful anyway.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Susan Brady –[/SIZE]

Freelance Blogger

[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]“It looks like cakes aren’t the bastion of free speech they once were.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Connor Lucas –[/SIZE]

Charter School Comparer

[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]“I would have wanted a piece with the X.”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Doug Stacky –[/SIZE]

Unemployed

I get your point. I think that, much like when you get to know people on this board, it becomes surprising to hear both the authors and commenters undergo a significant cultural change when it comes to this stuff. My point is not to present their views as authority. It's to present what looks to be a sea change in the thinking of the authors and commenters. Gay marriage vs. the non-recognition of all marriage is hotly debated, and if a certain intellectual segment of the population determines one of those to be more palatable to those seeking liberty, then it becomes relevant to this board and this law, IMO.

 
Not accurate, rockaction. Is be happy to debate this issue with you but I won't do it here because it would take away from the discussion. I will respond in my thread and I hope you'll read it and reply.

 
Matt Welch with a ####### outstanding point, and I'll bold it and italicize for anyone having trouble with the psychological make-up of those opposed to not only the laws, but the tactics used to "influence" those people with dissenting opinions. From a long-time gay marriage advocate.

"The bad news, for those of us on the suddenly victorious side of the gay marriage debate, is that too many people are acting like sore winners, not merely content with the revolutionary step of removing state discrimination against same-sex couples in the legal recognition of marriage, but seeking to use state power to punish anyone who refuses to lend their business services to wedding ceremonies they find objectionable. That's not persuasion, that's force, and force tends to be the anti-persuasion among those who are on the receiving end of it."
This whole Memories Pizza thing is just another example of public shaming.....de rigueur for social media in 2015. It's the business equivalent of Justine Sacco, IMO.
Public shaming is different than state law, using the apparatus of the state to compel action, and using death and arson threats to make a business shut its doors. "Public shaming" seems to be a bit of a tepid phrase for what happened here. Former NYT and Atlantic Monthly op-ed writers are speaking out against this stuff.

 
A bakery in Arizona is facing a religious discrimination complaint after refusing to comply with a customers order to decorate a cake shaped like a Bible with the words God hates gays and an image of two men holding hands with an X over it. What do you think?



A homemade anti-gay cake is more meaningful anyway.

Susan Brady

Freelance Blogger



It looks like cakes arent the bastion of free speech they once were.

Connor Lucas

Charter School Comparer



I would have wanted a piece with the X.

Doug Stacky

Unemployed

I get your point. I think that, much like when you get to know people on this board, it becomes surprising to hear both the authors and commenters undergo a significant cultural change when it comes to this stuff. My point is not to present their views as authority. It's to present what looks to be a sea change in the thinking of the authors and commenters. Gay marriage vs. the non-recognition of all marriage is hotly debated, and if a certain intellectual segment of the population determines one of those to be more palatable to those seeking liberty, then it becomes relevant to this board and this law, IMO.
That article was satire from The Onion.com

 
Matt Welch with a ####### outstanding point, and I'll bold it and italicize for anyone having trouble with the psychological make-up of those opposed to not only the laws, but the tactics used to "influence" those people with dissenting opinions. From a long-time gay marriage advocate.

"The bad news, for those of us on the suddenly victorious side of the gay marriage debate, is that too many people are acting like sore winners, not merely content with the revolutionary step of removing state discrimination against same-sex couples in the legal recognition of marriage, but seeking to use state power to punish anyone who refuses to lend their business services to wedding ceremonies they find objectionable. That's not persuasion, that's force, and force tends to be the anti-persuasion among those who are on the receiving end of it."
This whole Memories Pizza thing is just another example of public shaming.....de rigueur for social media in 2015. It's the business equivalent of Justine Sacco, IMO.
Public shaming is different than state law, using the apparatus of the state to compel action, and using death and arson threats to make a business shut its doors. "Public shaming" seems to be a bit of a tepid phrase for what happened here. Former NYT and Atlantic Monthly op-ed writers are speaking out against this stuff.
When any moron with Internet access can throw in their voice you almost have to go bat#### crazy to get noticed.

 
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Over $736,000. Keep trying to bully us around! Christianity is about community. We will not bend for against those trying to pervert society!

 
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The more I think about it the more i think that maybe the law should go through. If I were gay, I'd rather know up front who the bigot business owners are so that I could easily avoid them. Otherwise, if those businesses are forced to serve people that they despise, I run the risk of getting served tainted food/flowers/whatever.

 
The more I think about it the more i think that maybe the law should go through. If I were gay, I'd rather know up front who the bigot business owners are so that I could easily avoid them. Otherwise, if those businesses are forced to serve people that they despise, I run the risk of getting served tainted food/flowers/whatever.
You think that doesn't go on with virtually every demographic? If you've eaten out and your server disliked you for any reason, you've been at risk for this very thing.

I get the sense that gay folks would like their government to recognize them as equals to everyone else and not endorse discrimination.

 

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