Browns starting RB 2004 (1 Viewer)

[Portis 26]

William Green has now been reinstated by the league following his suspension, so you would have to think he's still the starter given the amount of money the Browns have invested in him, the potential and talent he has flashed, and the fact that Butch Davis likes him.On the other hand Suggs was a great college back, looked superb at the end of the regular season, and there are still major question marks about Green's character.Who starts? Or is this Couch-Holcomb all over again?

 

[beef]

James Jackson

 

[Drunken Cowboy]

Green is the better player. If he doesn't get suspened again he will be the guy.

 

[JohnnyU]

Suggs should start, but WG will start. Green has pics of Butch Davis with farm animals or something

 

[Goat Herders]

I think Green will get as many chances as Butch Davis will give him.I think if Davis is shown the door (likely, barring a playoff run), Green will be right behind him.Suggs is a talented back who played very well in a losing situation - the team's season was virtually over. He ran hard and broke some long runs. However, the fact that in his "breakout" game against Cincy, he had 3 cracks at a goalline TD shows what we all know: THe Cleveland O-line is sub-par at best. Don't worry about which RB is getting the carries. If the Line doesn't improve/get healthy this season, neither of them is going to be above the 4 ypc line.HERD

 

[Burning Sensation]

Green is the better player.

:rotflmao:

 

[Joseph]

Green is the better player.

That's what Kevin Johnson's wife told me anyway.

 

[beef]

I don't think green is any better than jj. so what if he was a 1st round pick. there's more than one lawrance philips.suggs w/o the acl injury or the shoulder injury could have been a top 10 overall pick in the draft. he has just as much talent as green, but has a much better attitude and work ethic.i'll pass on william phillips unless i can get him late. same for suggs, i like him more but it will be a mess.

 

[Burning Sensation]

If the Line doesn't improve/get healthy this season, neither of them is going to be above the 4 ypc line.

HERD

Last two seasons:William Green - 385 carries, 1446 yards, 3.75 YPC, 7 TD's, 26 catches, 163 yards (this does not include his 25 carry for 30 yard playoff game)

Jackson, White, Suggs - 346 carries, 1461 yards, 4.22 YPC 11 TD's, 128 catches, 778 yards

 

[DaTuna]

If the Line doesn't improve/get healthy this season, neither of them is going to be above the 4 ypc line.

HERD

Last two seasons:William Green - 385 carries, 1446 yards, 3.75 YPC, 7 TD's, 26 catches, 163 yards (this does not include his 25 carry for 30 yard playoff game)

Jackson, White, Suggs - 346 carries, 1461 yards, 4.22 YPC 11 TD's, 128 catches, 778 yards

lol, Willie Green is behind in everything but carries (and that further shows how his YPC is lower)

 

[Portis 26]

William Green - 385 carries, 1446 yards, 3.75 YPC

This is a bit misleading. If you break down those carries, the first half of his rookie season he was appallingly bad. After that, though, he was pretty good, including some monster games at the end of the 2002 season and even a couple of pretty fine games in 2003.

 

[GoL]

William Green - 385 carries, 1446 yards, 3.75 YPC, 7 TD's, 26 catches, 163 yards (this does not include his 25 carry for 30 yard playoff game)Jackson, White, Suggs - 346 carries, 1461 yards, 4.22 YPC 11 TD's, 128 catches, 778 yards

This is quite misleading because any back can break an 8 yard run on 3rd & 20That said if I had to pick a back I would pick Suggs because I believe he has nearly as much talent as Green but not the potential for meltdown. It will be interesting to see how this unfolds in training camp.

 

[Burning Sensation]

This is a bit misleading. If you break down those carries, the first half of his rookie season he was appallingly bad. After that, though, he was pretty good, including some monster games at the end of the 2002 season and even a couple of pretty fine games in 2003.

Like someone pointed out in another thread, he only has five 100 yard rushing games in 24 games played. So to me, a few good games at the end of the 2002 season against bad defenses is misleading people into thinking the guy can actually produce.

 

[Portis 26]

So to me, a few good games at the end of the 2002 season against bad defenses is misleading people into thinking the guy can actually produce.

Another way of looking at it was he was terrible until he figured out how to run in the NFL, and ever since then he's put up good numbers.

 

[coolbeans59]

Talent-wise Suggs and Green are near equal.Suggs WOULDA been a 1st or 2nd rounder had he not been diagnosed with the shoulder injury.

 

[smlevin]

Another way of looking at it was he was terrible until he figured out how to run in the NFL, and ever since then he's put up good numbers.

Except of course for most of 2003 when he "forgot" how to run in the NFL again, right? I was very disappointed with WGreen, and I will admit that after the Pitt game it looked like he FINALLY might break through to be a decent RB2 for my squad, then he gets himself hurt and then suspended for the year.There is way too much stacked againt this guy - including being unable to run versus 7 in the box. He has an appalling lack of creativity, and foot speed, when the first hole gets shuts down. he can't break a tackle, and is often tackled for a loss. Finally, he plays in a division with two run defense powerhouses, and one up and coming team in the Bengals - that'll be 6 games or more next year versus tough run defenses - and I've seen nothing from WGreen that makes me think he can go better than 3.5 per carry against tough run defenses (ie - under 100 yards in the game unless he carries the ball 30 times).Unless the Browns o-line starts blowing open Mack truck sized holes, not only does WGreen not matter, but whoever the starter is will be no better than a fantasy backup in this very deep RB 2004 class.

 

[Burning Sensation]

Another way of looking at it was he was terrible until he figured out how to run in the NFL, and ever since then he's put up good numbers.

Yeh, his 3.53 YPC after that few game stretch at the end of the 2002 season is terrific!!!!!

 

[George Jefferson]

I've seen nothing from WGreen that makes me think he can go better than 3.5 per carry against tough run defenses

The same can be said about Lee Suggs.Week 16 vs. Ravens ("tough run defense"): 20 attempts/68 yard/3.4 ypc

 

[Burning Sensation]

and I will admit that after the Pitt game it looked like he FINALLY might break through to be a decent RB2 for my squad

Its funny you talk about a game where he averaged 3.5 yards per carry as a game where it looked like he might be turning it around. When a game in which you rushed for 3.5 YPC is the bright side of your season, your in big trouble.

 

[Portis 26]

Except of course for most of 2003 when he "forgot" how to run in the NFL again, right?

Well, but the Browns o-line had major injury problems for most of 2003. With a solid line in front of him in the second half of the 2002 season he looked great.

 

[number 2]

This is a bit misleading. If you break down those carries, the first half of his rookie season he was appallingly bad. After that, though, he was pretty good, including some monster games at the end of the 2002 season and even a couple of pretty fine games in 2003.

Like someone pointed out in another thread, he only has five 100 yard rushing games in 24 games played. So to me, a few good games at the end of the 2002 season against bad defenses is misleading people into thinking the guy can actually produce.

smart man this BS guy is.

 

[Portis 26]

It's worth reproducing an argument from a different thread:

2002: William Green becomes starter in Week 11 (Team record for first 10 weeks 4-5)Week 11: 25 attempts/96 yards------2 receptions/4 yards (WIN)Week 12: 28 attempts/114 yards/1 TD (WIN)Week 13: 24 attempts/94 yards------3 receptions/44 yards (Loss)Week 14: 26 attempts/119 yards/1 TD------3 receptions/25 yards (WIN)Week 15: 22 attempts/69 yards/1 TD------3 receptions/24 yards (Loss)Week 16: 20 attempts/56 yards------2 receptions/2 yards (WIN)Week 17: 27 attempts/178 yards/2 TD------2 receptions/9 yards (WIN)Those are workhorse numbers, and the Browns' record from Week 11 on once William Green took over the starting job was 5-2. William Green carried the Browns on his back into the playoffs that year and showed Butch Davis he was a workhorse back. One good game from Lee Suggs will not erase the ability William Green has shown, no matter how much Lee Suggs owners hope it will. Butch Davis knows that William Green has the size and ability to be a workhorse, and that's what Butch Davis needs to win in the AFC North. William Green has the talent, and with his personal life in order I see no reason William Green won't be the starter again next year.

 

[number 2]

William Green is now or will be a has been by the end of 2004.He has show us all the warning signs we need. Poor play, bad attitude, drug problem, women/family problems. Yeah this guy will really turn it around. :rotflmao:

 

[Portis 26]

Michael Irvin had no end of personal problems and he wasn't too shabby as an NFL player, was he?

 

[Goat Herders]

Michael Irvin had no end of personal problems and he wasn't too shabby as an NFL player, was he?

Michael Irvin never got tackled for a loss half the time he had the ball either...HERD

 

[Burning Sensation]

Michael Irvin had no end of personal problems and he wasn't too shabby as an NFL player, was he?

William Green + talent = Lawrence Phillips

 

[Portis 26]

Michael Irvin never got tackled for a loss half the time he had the ball either...

Not Green's fault the Browns line is the wussiest around and they have a noodle-armed QB so D has no fear of the pass and can concentrate of whacking Green every time he gets the ball.

 

[Burning Sensation]

It's worth reproducing an argument from a different thread:

2002: William Green becomes starter in Week 11 (Team record for first 10 weeks 4-5)Week 11: 25 attempts/96 yards------2 receptions/4 yards (WIN)Week 12: 28 attempts/114 yards/1 TD (WIN)Week 13: 24 attempts/94 yards------3 receptions/44 yards (Loss)Week 14: 26 attempts/119 yards/1 TD------3 receptions/25 yards (WIN)Week 15: 22 attempts/69 yards/1 TD------3 receptions/24 yards (Loss)Week 16: 20 attempts/56 yards------2 receptions/2 yards (WIN)Week 17: 27 attempts/178 yards/2 TD------2 receptions/9 yards (WIN)Those are workhorse numbers, and the Browns' record from Week 11 on once William Green took over the starting job was 5-2. William Green carried the Browns on his back into the playoffs that year and showed Butch Davis he was a workhorse back. One good game from Lee Suggs will not erase the ability William Green has shown, no matter how much Lee Suggs owners hope it will. Butch Davis knows that William Green has the size and ability to be a workhorse, and that's what Butch Davis needs to win in the AFC North. William Green has the talent, and with his personal life in order I see no reason William Green won't be the starter again next year.

Take away his 1 game vs. the Atlanta defense, which everyone has been able to run against, and he averaged 3.76 yards per carry over that stretch. So basically what we have here is two RB's, Suggs and Green, who both have had 1 terrific game. Difference is Suggs has not proven he sucks over 23 other games like Green has.For the record, Suggs had the better game on the road against the better team.

 

[Burning Sensation]

Not Green's fault the Browns line is the wussiest around and they have a noodle-armed QB so D has no fear of the pass and can concentrate of whacking Green every time he gets the ball.

Well, this point is going to work against you again. Cleveland passing game was tearing it up over the last half of 2002, opening up some room for Green, hence his brief succes.

 

[smlevin]

Not Green's fault the Browns line is the wussiest around and they have a noodle-armed QB so D has no fear of the pass and can concentrate of whacking Green every time he gets the ball.

You just made a better argument than anyone I've seen in this thread (including myself) for why none of the Cleveland backs are better than a backup fantasy option for 2004.As far as pure talent goes, WGreen is the hit the hole drive forward type of back, never breaking a big gainer, while Suggs has breakaway speed and creative ability in the backfield - he might go 6 carries in a row for 10 yards (just liek W Green), but then he might do something Wille can't - take one 45 yards + for a TD. I'd rather put Suggs behind a poor o-line than WGreen.

 

[Portis 26]

For the record, Suggs had the better game on the road against the better team.

Let me get this straight. Your entire arguments about Suggs is based on:i) the TWO games he played in the NFL (one mediocre, one OK against a terrible run D) andii) his college history.Now, most folks would think that you need a little bit more evidence than TWO games at the end of a season to judge how a back can fare in the NFL. And if you go on college history alone then countless duds like Lawrence Phillips, Curtis Enis etc would have been superstars in the NFL.You need to produce a little more to backup your case.

 

[George Jefferson]

Michael Irvin never got tackled for a loss half the time he had the ball either...HERD

I'd like to see the stats on this claim. Goat show us the statistical data that proves William Green gets tackled for a loss 50% of the time. Or is that just another unsubstantiated claim you're tossing around?

 

[Burning Sensation]

Let me get this straight. Your entire arguments about Suggs is based on:i) the TWO games he played in the NFL (one mediocre, one OK against a terrible run D) andii) his college history.Now, most folks would think that you need a little bit more evidence than TWO games at the end of a season to judge how a back can fare in the NFL. And if you go on college history alone then countless duds like Lawrence Phillips, Curtis Enis etc would have been superstars in the NFL.You need to produce a little more to backup your case.

Your basing Greens success off of one game.Edited to add, the one game Green did well in was against a worse team then Suggs played against. And Greens was at home.

 

[Portis 26]

Your basing Greens success off of one game.

No, I'm doing it on the basis of two seasons, the 2002 and 2003 seasons, and I'm saying that after a poor start in his rooke season, he put up pretty good numbers. Not GREAT, but pretty good. That's all.

 

[smlevin]

You need to produce a little more to backup your case.

I generally agree with this point - there is a lot of arguments in this thread that we should be favoring the devil we don't know rather than the devil we do."We KNOW Green sucks, so Suggs MUST be better - and here's why I think Suggs is better" (that's the line of argument - not my reasoning)My argument is they both stink from a fantasy perspective as long as the other aspects of the offense aren't there, so it doesn't matter if it is Suggs, Green or JJax. However, JJax put up decent RB2 numbers in the same situation that WGreen was struggling, and Suggs did a GREAT job in his limited games, also with the same situation as WGreen had.Like I said earlier, the possibility of Suggs breaking away downfield (a possibility WGreen doesn't seem to possess) makes me personally favor him, but I am betting Butch Davis will be splitting that backfield Hearst/Barlow style between Green and Suggs - simply b/c they both bring different things to the table and are BOTH BUtch Davis handpicked runners (as is JJax, BTW). I'd say JWhite is odd man out of this rotation.

 

[George Jefferson]

Edited to add, the one game Green did well in was against a worse team then Suggs played against. And Greens was at home.

That's a pretty weak argument in building a case for Lee Suggs, but I suppose that's all you really have. Now you're resorting to comparing the 2003 Bengals to the 2002 Falcons. Talk about looking through rose-colored glasses to see exactly what you want to see.

 

[Burning Sensation]

That's a pretty weak argument in building a case for Lee Suggs, but I suppose that's all you really have. Now you're resorting to comparing the 2003 Bengals to the 2002 Falcons. Talk about looking through rose-colored glasses to see exactly what you want to see.

Again, why cant i use one game for backing Suggs, you are using one game for backing Green.Knowing little about Suggs is better than what i DO KNOW about Green

 

[Portis 26]

you are using one game for backing Green

I don't know why you keep on repeating this. Those arguing in favor of Green cite the second half of the 2002 season, and the first half of the 2003 season. That's about a full season. Not one game.

 

[George Jefferson]

Again, why cant i use one game for backing Suggs, you are using one game for backing Green.

Knowing little about Suggs is better than what i DO KNOW about Green

Unlike your backing of Suggs with 1 game, I'm using a heck of a lot more than 1 game to back up Green. In the last 14 games William Green has started (last 7 games 2002 + first 7 games 2003), he has 1,443 combined yards. That's 103 yards per game. Yeah William Green sucks.

 

[Burning Sensation]

I don't know why you keep on repeating this. Those arguing in favor of Green cite the second half of the 2002 season, and the first half of the 2003 season. That's about a full season. Not one game.

Over the last 7 weeks of the 2002 season(which is what all you Green supporters keep bringing up) he averaged 3.76 YPC, after you take away that 1 game.

 

[EastBayFunk]

This is a tough race to call. Suggs is pretty much an unknown at this point because we really haven't seen a lot of him. Green gets bashed a lot around here, but he started to pick his game up a bit last season. He's not half as bad some people around here think, but he's a power/workhorse back who Cleveland was trying to run in a spread style offense. That's like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole as they say. If Green plays for a team that focuses on the run then he can be fairly productive. Cleveland firing Bruce Arians is certainly a step in the right direction for that offense.Much has been made of Green's troubles, but there have been guys with bad attitude problems who have gotten back on track. The Lawrence Phillips comparisons are absurd. Green has no record of dragging women down flights of stairs by their hair and being an all-around thug. He's more of a Lamar Odom type in that he has some talent, but very little discipline. As he gets older he might realize that he needs to cut the BS, but then again, he might not. However, it's a bit premature to count him out.

 

[Burning Sensation]

Again, why cant i use one game for backing Suggs, you are using one game for backing Green.

Knowing little about Suggs is better than what i DO KNOW about Green

Unlike your backing of Suggs with 1 game, I'm using a heck of a lot more than 1 game to back up Green. In the last 14 games William Green has started (last 7 games 2002 + first 7 games 2003), he has 1,443 combined yards. That's 103 yards per game. Yeah William Green sucks.

And minus that one game, what are those totals? what is his YPC? not to mention your leaving out the the first 9 games of 2002 and the playoff game in 2002.

 

[Portis 26]

Over the last 7 weeks of the 2002 season(which is what all you Green supporters keep bringing up) he averaged 3.76 YPC, after you take away that 1 game.

You can't take away 1 game just because he played a bad D. Would you take Jamal Lewis's monster game against the Browns because of that? That shouldn't be officially counted, right?

 

[George Jefferson]

Over the last 7 weeks of the 2002 season(which is what all you Green supporters keep bringing up) he averaged 3.76 YPC, after you take away that 1 game.

Take away Lee Suggs' one good game and he averaged 3.4 ypc last year.

 

[Burning Sensation]

Take away Lee Suggs' one good game and he averaged 3.4 ypc last year.

Yep, and take away William Greens one good game and he has averaged 3.38 YPC, and has had far more carries to establish that terrific YPC.

 

[George Jefferson]

Yep, and take away William Greens one good game and he has averaged 3.38 YPC, and has had far more carries to establish that terrific YPC.

LOL, this is getting ridiculous now with all your number twisting. :rotflmao: :rotflmao: I guess Suggs owners will stop nothing short of fully convincing us that William Green is a talentless turd and Lee Suggs is the next Jim Brown.

 

[Burning Sensation]

You can't take away 1 game just because he played a bad D. Would you take Jamal Lewis's monster game against the Browns because of that? That shouldn't be officially counted, right?

Your saying Suggs is unproven because he only played in one game, which is true, but isnt that better than what Willie Green has done in ALL his games minus his one good game?

 

[Burning Sensation]

LOL, this getting ridiculous now. :rotflmao: :rotflmao: I guess Suggs owners will stop nothing short of fully convincing us that William Green is a talentless turd and Lee Suggs is the next Jim Brown.

Suprise, i am a Suggs owner, and NOT a Green owner. But that is not a coincidence, because after having similar arguments about Green last year at this time, i selected Suggs in 3 of my 4 dynasty leagues. 2003 has done nothing but prove i was right on in my thinking last year.

 

[Portis 26]

Your saying Suggs is unproven because he only played in one game, which is true, but isnt that better than what Willie Green has done in ALL his games minus his one good game?

William Green has proved himself to be a solid starting RB in the NFL and guy who can be a borderline RB1-RB2 in fantasy.Lee Suggs has proved nothing.Does Suggs have the talent to be the next LaDainian Tomlinson? Unlikely.Does he have the talent to be "a solid starting RB in the NFL and guy who can be a borderline RB1-RB2 in fantasy". Maybe.So MAYBE just MAYBE Suggs might be as good as Green. Maybe.

 

[Burning Sensation]

LOL, this is getting ridiculous now with all your number twisting. :rotflmao: :rotflmao: I guess Suggs owners will stop nothing short of fully convincing us that William Green is a talentless turd and Lee Suggs is the next Jim Brown.

Also, i didnt say either of those two things, i just said that i think Suggs is better than Green.