Browns starting RB 2004 (1 Viewer)

[JohnnyU]

You know, I tried to take the high road and really stay out of this discussion that has turned ridiculous. But now I'm all in.

Ok, so Lee Suggs has had 1 good NFL game. Convince me then with some solid facts, either statements from Butch Davis, statistical data, etc, that Suggs is far superior to William Green and that William Green is a "bad" RB.

To this point, I'm one of the few who have based my argument solely on facts and statistics.

William Green's NFL career as a true featured back:

14 regular season games: 1,443 combined yards

Combined yards per game: 103

Here's the breakdown of ONLY his rushing stats in that 14-game span as the true featured back.

2002 Week 11: 25 attempts/96 yards

2002 Week 12: 28 attempts/114 yards

2002 Week 13: 24 attempts/94 yards

2002 Week 14: 26 attempts/119 yards

2002 Week 15: 22 attempts/69 yards

2002 Week 16: 20 attempts/56 yards

2002 Week 17: 27 attempts/178 yards

2003 Week 1: 21 attempts/86 yards

2003 Week 2: 17 attempts/54 yards

2003 Week 3: 15 attempts/47 yards

2003 Week 4: 16 attempts/47 yards

2003 Week 5: 33 attempts/115 yards

2003 Week 6: 26 attempts/145 yards

2003 Week 7: 14 attempts/65 yards

-----------------------------------------------------

14 regular season games as the true featured back

TOTAL: 314 attempts/1,285 yards/4.09 YPC/6TD's (over William Green's last 14 regular season games)

It's funny that the pro-Lee Suggs camp can't solidly refute these stats, and insead just make little childish comments and ignore any attempt to explain how these rushing stats make William Green such a terrible back.

For the sake of comparison:

Travis Henry averaged 4.07 YPC last year. (over his last 15 regular season games)

Ricky Williams averaged 3.50 YPC last year. (over hislast 16 regular season games).

Fred Taylor scored 6 rushing TD's last year. (over his last 16 regular season games.

And last year, Michael Bennett made the probowl as an alternate with 1,296 rushing yards/5 TD's (in 16 regular season games.)

So, I pose the question, what about William Green's featured back statistics make him a "bad" RB? Somebody step up and support that claim with solid evidence, or will youguys just choose to ignore this bit of fact once again?

Why do we need to only use his games from when he was a "true featured back"? are we suposed to conveniently ignore that he could not win the starting job over the first 8 weeks? Why does this argument always have to come down to numbers, part of my argument is from watching Willaim Green play, and from what i see, he is not a very good RB. I watched the entire Piitsburgh game last year rooting for Green, and although he had 115 yards, he looked like crap. I obviously have no "stats" to back that up, but i can alos say, IMO, Suggs looked better in 1 game than Green looked in any game i saw him play(probably 6-7 games over his "14 game stretch")I cant wait to bump this thread in August.

Do you get the feeling those who get defensive about William Green, are those who are still having nighmares over not drafting Portis?

 

[Burning Sensation]

Because he's been playing as a true featured back for his last 14 NFL games. That's a more accurate measure of what he is capable of AS A FEATURED BACK rather than looking at his first few games as a rookie where he split time with Jamel White due to a slow adjustment period to the NFL speed of the game. Use common sense man.

Ok, common sense tells me Suggs did fine in his first few games as a rookie, he must be better than Green, considering he was able to do things Green was not.

 

[Burning Sensation]

You know, I tried to take the high road and really stay out of this discussion that has turned ridiculous.  But now I'm all in.

Ok, so Lee Suggs has had 1 good NFL game.  Convince me then with some solid facts, either statements from Butch Davis, statistical data, etc, that Suggs is far superior to William Green and that William Green is a "bad" RB.

To this point, I'm one of the few who have based my argument solely on facts and statistics.

William Green's NFL career as a true featured back:

14 regular season games: 1,443 combined yards

Combined yards per game: 103

Here's the breakdown of ONLY his rushing stats in that 14-game span as the true featured back.

2002 Week 11: 25 attempts/96 yards

2002 Week 12: 28 attempts/114 yards

2002 Week 13: 24 attempts/94 yards

2002 Week 14: 26 attempts/119 yards

2002 Week 15: 22 attempts/69 yards

2002 Week 16: 20 attempts/56 yards

2002 Week 17: 27 attempts/178 yards

2003 Week 1: 21 attempts/86 yards

2003 Week 2: 17 attempts/54 yards

2003 Week 3: 15 attempts/47 yards

2003 Week 4: 16 attempts/47 yards

2003 Week 5: 33 attempts/115 yards

2003 Week 6: 26 attempts/145 yards

2003 Week 7: 14 attempts/65 yards

-----------------------------------------------------

14 regular season games as the true featured back

TOTAL: 314 attempts/1,285 yards/4.09 YPC/6TD's (over William Green's last 14 regular season games)

It's funny that the pro-Lee Suggs camp can't solidly refute these stats, and  insead just make little childish comments and ignore any attempt to explain how these rushing stats make William Green such a terrible back. 

For the sake of comparison:

Travis Henry averaged 4.07 YPC last year. (over his last 15 regular season games)

Ricky Williams averaged 3.50 YPC last year. (over hislast 16 regular season games).

Fred Taylor scored 6 rushing TD's last year. (over his last 16 regular season games.

And last year, Michael Bennett made the probowl as an alternate with 1,296 rushing yards/5 TD's (in 16 regular season games.)

So, I pose the question, what about William Green's featured back statistics make him a "bad" RB?  Somebody step up and support that claim with solid evidence, or will youguys just choose to ignore this bit of fact once again?

Why do we need to only use his games from when he was a "true featured back"? are we suposed to conveniently ignore that he could not win the starting job over the first 8 weeks? Why does this argument always have to come down to numbers, part of my argument is from watching Willaim Green play, and from what i see, he is not a very good RB. I watched the entire Piitsburgh game last year rooting for Green, and although he had 115 yards, he looked like crap. I obviously have no "stats" to back that up, but i can alos say, IMO, Suggs looked better in 1 game than Green looked in any game i saw him play(probably 6-7 games over his "14 game stretch")I cant wait to bump this thread in August.

Do you get the feeling those who get defensive about William Green, are those who are still having nighmares over not drafting Portis?

It is obvious this is Georges issue. I would be pissed too, maybe George just needs a hug.

 

[George Jefferson]

Why does this argument always have to come down to numbers

Why are numbers a problem for you? Do they unconveniently work against your argument that William Green is a terrible back? Are you too lazy to develop a counterargument against mine using numbers? Isn't fantasy football based off of numbers? Your position is once again coming across very weak.Step up to my challenge Burning Sensation, and use some solid evidence to show William Green is a bad feature back rather than just claim he is bad because he looked bad from where you were sitting on your couch.I'm still waiting for Burning Sensation to refute my arguments, but he just keeps running.

 

[JohnnyU]

You must not have read some of my earlier posts. I also own both, though I feel the fantasy potential of the Cleveland RB position is best maximized with a bigger, stronger, more physical RB in William Green than what Lee Suggs can be on an every week basis. I also challenge you to come up with some solid statisitics that show that when William Green has been used as the featured back in Cleveland that he's been terrible. Back up your opinions with something other than the hot air coming out of your crack.

Dude, I don't really give a damn about your pissing contest with BS. I think it is funny how you say "I'm out of this discussion", now look at you . I don't have to look up any stats, because on potential alone, I would rather have Lee Suggs. Forget how many actual carries he has had in the NFL. I think he has more potential and there is nothing in any of William Green's stats that change that.

 

[Ranethe]

just when you thought it was over.....

 

[George Jefferson]

It is obvious this is Georges issue. I would be pissed too, maybe George just needs a hug.

This comment from you shows you have nothing productive to add to this discussion. You can't even stand up and refute the statical data I've laid out of William Green's performance as a featured back.

 

[JohnnyU]

Why are numbers a problem for you? Do they unconveniently work against your argument that William Green is a terrible back? Are you too lazy to develop a counterargument against mine using numbers? Isn't fantasy football based off of numbers? Your position is once again coming across very weak.Step up to my challenge Burning Sensation, and use some solid evidence to show William Green is a bad feature back rather than just claim he is bad because he looked bad from where you were sitting on your couch.I'm still waiting for Burning Sensation to refute my arguments, but he just keeps running.

Numbers, Numbers, Number, people always talking about Numbers.Potential, Potential, Potential, now there is a word.William Green = dead or in jail unless he gets help.

 

[Burning Sensation]

Why are numbers a problem for you? Do they unconveniently work against your argument that William Green is a terrible back? Are you too lazy to develop a counterargument against mine using numbers? Isn't fantasy football based off of numbers? Your position is once again coming across very weak.

Step up to my challenge Burning Sensation, and use some solid evidence to show William Green is a bad feature back rather than just claim he is bad because he looked bad from where you were sitting on your couch.

I'm still waiting for Burning Sensation to refute my arguments, but he just keeps running.

3.71 career YPCGame, set, match, thanks for coming out.

 

[George Jefferson]

I think it is funny how you say "I'm out of this discussion", now look at you .

When Burning Sensation calls me out and says he's asking for my opinion of a beat-writers article, by saying "Where's George now," you might see me reenter a thread I thought I had left.Yeah, stick your tail in between your legs and say that you don't have to look up stats to say that based off of "POTENTIAL" Lee Suggs is better than William Green. That's a coward's response.

 

[George Jefferson]

4.09 YPC AVERAGE as a featured back. Looking at William Green's games as a featured back is a more accurate indicator of what he's capable of in the future.

 

[smlevin]

Can't Look AwayPage seven and going strong.

 

[George Jefferson]

If the best argument you guys can come up with is that William Green "sucks" and Lee Suggs has more "potential" than William Green, then we really have nothing further to discuss. The burden of proof lies squarely on your shoulders---show us that William Green is a terrible featured back.

 

[George Jefferson]

This is truly pathetic. All you guys want to talk about is "POTENTIAL." And you guys act like you're afraid of numbers when this is fantasy football for crying out loud! Look at William Green's stats as a featured back and you'll see he's not nearly as bad as you guys say he is. Come up with something solid guys, or this discussion is over, STEP UP.

 

[Burning Sensation]

This is truly pathetic. All you guys want to talk about is "POTENTIAL." And you guys act like you're afraid of numbers when this is fantasy football for crying out loud! Look at William Green's stats as a featured back and you'll see he's not nearly as bad as you guys say he is. Come up with something solid guys, or this discussion is over, STEP UP.

OK, 3.71 YPC, you can pick and choose the games you want to count, but the facts do not get any simpler than his career YPC.Lee Suggs, 5.2 YPCYou want the truth, YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!

 

[George Jefferson]

OK, 3.71 YPC, you can pick and choose the games you want to count, but the facts do not get any simpler than his career YPC.Lee Suggs, 5.2 YPCYou want the truth, YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!

The ignorance of the reply above is dissapointing. I didn't pick and choose which games I've used to compute William Green's YPC average as a featured back, I've used ALL 14 regular season games (good and bad) to determine an indicator of William Green as a featured back. I didn't use the 1st half of his rookie season because clearly he was adapting to the new game and wasn't the true featured back as he shared time with Jamel White. Lee Suggs has had exactly one good game. That's all you have. And to establish a ypc average off of two games in which one happened to be a great game is ignorant. I've given you guys a chance to STEP UP and show me something solid (backed with stats/statements from Butch Davis) in your argument and you've yet to do so. This is a complete waste of my time. I'll let ignorance continue to be ignorant. Nice way to step up to to a challenge guys. I'm done wasting my time here with a buch of kids who want to argue over "potential" and can't back up their argument with anything substantial :rotflmao:

 

[Burning Sensation]

OK, 3.71 YPC, you can pick and choose the games you want to count, but the facts do not get any simpler than his career YPC.Lee Suggs, 5.2 YPCYou want the truth, YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!

The ignorance of the reply above is dissapointing. I didn't pick and choose which games I've used to compute William Green's YPC average as a featured back, I've used ALL 14 regular season games (good and bad) to determine an indicator of William Green as a featured back. I didn't use the 1st half of his rookie season because clearly he was adapting to the new game and wasn't the true featured back as he shared time with Jamel White. Lee Suggs has had exactly one good game. That's all you have. And to establish a ypc average off of one good game is ignorant. I've given you guys a chance to STEP UP and show me something solid in your argument and you've yet to do so. This is a complete waste of my time. I'll let ignorance continue to be ignorant. Nice way to step up to to a challenge guys. I'm done wasting my time here with a buch of kids who want to argue over "potential." :rotflmao:

Hmm, resorting to name calling, clearly a sign of someone who is defeated.

 

[Burning Sensation]

I'm done wasting my time here with a buch of kids who want to argue over "potential." :rotflmao:

O/U on posts until George replies again 7, who wants some of that action?

 

[Iceman03]

OK, 3.71 YPC, you can pick and choose the games you want to count, but the facts do not get any simpler than his career YPC.Lee Suggs, 5.2 YPCYou want the truth, YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!

The ignorance of the reply above is dissapointing. I didn't pick and choose which games I've used to compute William Green's YPC average as a featured back, I've used ALL 14 regular season games (good and bad) to determine an indicator of William Green as a featured back. I didn't use the 1st half of his rookie season because clearly he was adapting to the new game and wasn't the true featured back as he shared time with Jamel White. Lee Suggs has had exactly one good game. That's all you have. And to establish a ypc average off of two games in which one happened to be a great game is ignorant. I've given you guys a chance to STEP UP and show me something solid (backed with stats/statements from Butch Davis) in your argument and you've yet to do so. This is a complete waste of my time. I'll let ignorance continue to be ignorant. Nice way to step up to to a challenge guys. I'm done wasting my time here with a buch of kids who want to argue over "potential" and can't back up their argument with anything substantial :rotflmao:

Hold up. You are allowed to ignore the first half of his rookie season and just plain ignore all of Lee Suggs stats. Sounds fair to me. Let's also ignore the intangibles and potential of both players. Sounds like you know what your talking about to me. Keep up the good work.

 

[smlevin]

OK, 3.71 YPC, you can pick and choose the games you want to count, but the facts do not get any simpler than his career YPC.Lee Suggs, 5.2 YPCYou want the truth, YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!

The ignorance of the reply above is dissapointing. I didn't pick and choose which games I've used to compute William Green's YPC average as a featured back, I've used ALL 14 regular season games (good and bad) to determine an indicator of William Green as a featured back. I didn't use the 1st half of his rookie season because clearly he was adapting to the new game and wasn't the true featured back as he shared time with Jamel White.

????That is picking and choosing. Take ALL his starts, or use your selective numbers and expect others to do the same.(Ooops, can of worms? I seem to be standing here with an opener - I may wish I hadn't posted)

 

[Burning Sensation]

I'm done wasting my time here with a buch of kids who want to argue over "potential." :rotflmao:

O/U on posts until George replies again 7, who wants some of that action?

George, you have been making me look smart throughout this whole thread, do it agian and post within the next 4 posts, considering i am playing the under 7.

 

[BloodyPigSkin]

I sure enjoyed that Mack fellow for Cleveland in the original Tecmo Bowl. Countless defenders would simply bounce off him, except Ronnie of course...

 

[fatness]

Is this the War of the Roses?

 

[number 2]

Browns | Suggs Being Groomed as Starter - from www.KFFL.comSun, 8 Feb 2004 12:26:58 -0800The Akron Beacon Journal's Terry Pluto reports Cleveland Browns second-year RB Lee Suggs is currently penciled in as the starting tailback for the 2004 season. Because RB William Green still has legal and personal problems to solve, the team hopes he can return but they aren't counting on it. Because of that, they're going to prepare Suggs as the starter and consider Green as a bonus if he's able to make a comeback.

Eat that George Jefferson!Now ####!

 

[switz]

Switz, wise man not bringing this up again. You were clearly wrong and throwing around an unsubstantiated claim.

How many carries did Green average in games he broke 100 yards? Yeah, that's what I thought. Now project that over a season and tell me how many RBs average that # of carries.

 

[Fallerjw]

Average as "workhorse" back:Green - 22.4 car 91.79 yds .43 TDSuggs - 23.0 car 127.0 yds 1 TDclose, George, but I'll take Suggs.

 

[Norseman]

As for William Green being lucky not to end up in prison, that's laughable. These situations usually always end up better than they initially sound.Randy Moss: not in prison.David Boston: not in prison.Travis Henry: not in prison.Jimmy Smith: not in prison.Michael Pittman: not in prison.Sebastian Janikowski: not in prison.Jamal Lewis: not in prison.You get the idea. I think William Green has some personal issues to overcome this off-season, but as far as William Green's on field performance he's definitely not as bad as this board makes him out to be. Instead of calling me out Burning Sensation, back up your argument with something more than unsubstantiated claims. Thank you, and I'd appreciate not being called out on this matter anymore. I've said my piece, backed up my argument with fact, and there's nothing more I desire to say. I'm clearly in the minority here, but I'm content to let time run it's course. Have a good day gentlemen.

Bennie Blades: served time(not sure if still in)Brian Blades: in prisonRae Caruth: in prisonCecil Collins: in prison I'm sure that there are more, just didn't want to take the time to look.More here I'm not so sure that it will work out so great for WG.

 

[JohnnyU]

Browns | Suggs Being Groomed as Starter - from www.KFFL.comSun, 8 Feb 2004 12:26:58 -0800The Akron Beacon Journal's Terry Pluto reports Cleveland Browns second-year RB Lee Suggs is currently penciled in as the starting tailback for the 2004 season. Because RB William Green still has legal and personal problems to solve, the team hopes he can return but they aren't counting on it. Because of that, they're going to prepare Suggs as the starter and consider Green as a bonus if he's able to make a comeback.

Eat that George Jefferson!Now ####!

I'm laughing so hard my side hurts

 

[yellowdog]

Anyone else her envision Lee Suggs singing:"I'm movin' on up, to the East Side"

 

[Goat Herders]

My 16 team keeper-league opponents might be thinking my pick of Suggs ahead of William Green, Curtis Martin, and Eddie George, isn't so funny now...HERD

 

[Iceman03]

As for William Green being lucky not to end up in prison, that's laughable.  These situations usually always end up better than they initially sound.Randy Moss: not in prison.David Boston: not in prison.Travis Henry: not in prison.Jimmy Smith: not in prison.Michael Pittman: not in prison.Sebastian Janikowski: not in prison.Jamal Lewis: not in prison.You get the idea.  I think William Green has some personal issues to overcome this off-season, but as far as William Green's on field performance he's definitely not as bad as this board makes him out to be.  Instead of calling me out Burning Sensation, back up your argument with something more than unsubstantiated claims.  Thank you, and I'd appreciate not being called out on this matter anymore.  I've said my piece, backed up my argument with fact, and there's nothing more I desire to say.  I'm clearly in the minority here, but I'm content to let time run it's course.  Have a good day gentlemen.

Bennie Blades: served time(not sure if still in)Brian Blades: in prisonRae Caruth: in prisonCecil Collins: in prison I'm sure that there are more, just didn't want to take the time to look.More here I'm not so sure that it will work out so great for WG.

Lawrence Phillips: In CFL.

 

[Mungo Burrows]

This is truly pathetic. All you guys want to talk about is "POTENTIAL." And you guys act like you're afraid of numbers when this is fantasy football for crying out loud! Look at William Green's stats as a featured back and you'll see he's not nearly as bad as you guys say he is. Come up with something solid guys, or this discussion is over, STEP UP.

Elvis Grbac put up great numbers passing the ball for Kansas City, but people who watched him much (except, apparently, the Ravens brass ) could see he was not a "good" quarterback. Sure lots of yards, lots of good numbers, but crucial mistakes at crucial times. Mental errors, etc. I don't know a lick about Green's performance, but I do know that stats don't always tell the whole story.

 

[BloodyPigSkin]

Would it be wrong to take the over now?

 

[DaTuna]

The new U/O should be if he ever posts again on this thread

 

[Burning Sensation]

The new U/O should be if he ever posts again on this thread

The only reason he may not, is because you just said it Lets try to bait him in though, hey George, i see you lurking, got anything to say for yourself?

 

[smlevin]

I set the last couple, and was the one that set this one at 8 after the last barrage - c'mon guys make me a profit (or at least a prophet).

 

[Burning Sensation]

I set the last couple, and was the one that set this one at 8 after the last barrage - c'mon guys make me a profit (or at least a prophet).

No george = No 8 pages

 

[Iceman03]

No george = No 8 pages

I like how he called everyone up to the plate (a little humor there ) then never responded when a lot of guys did.

 

[DaTuna]

IMO, the only way he posts again on this thread, is if by the end of the season, Green is a top 10 back.

 

[BGP]

Elvis Grbac put up great numbers passing the ball for Kansas City, but people who watched him much (except, apparently, the Ravens brass ) could see he was not a "good" quarterback. Sure lots of yards, lots of good numbers, but crucial mistakes at crucial times. Mental errors, etc.

Not to hijack this thread, but this is the first time I've heard someone complain about the "ineptitude" of the Ravens' brass in terms of personnel acquisition. Jamal Lewis. Ogden. Ed Reed. Boulware. OH HMM RAY-RAY?So Grbac didn't pan out. I'd take their track record any day.

 

[Burning Sensation]

IMO, the only way he posts again on this thread, is if by the end of the season, Green is a top 10 back.

Oh, im sure it wont take something that drastic, im sure we will hear from him if Green is the starter, or has a good pre-season game.Funniest thing about George, is he would ask for facts, then you would give them and 3 posts later he was talking about nobody was giving facts, completely ignoring the ones you just laid out for him just.

 

[yellowdog]

bump for George.

 

[Fallerjw]

I don't think he'll post anything until something positive has been announced about Green.

 

[Burning Sensation]

I don't think he'll post anything until something positive has been announced about Green.

i guess we have seen the end of George then. Although, i would doubt if we saw some "new member" show up in this thread talking about how smart George is, and that he agrees with him about Green.

 

[MediJuana]

Clarett??

 

[Slash]

I think it's clear the Cleveland offensive line just plain stinks, William Green isn't the first round RB Cleveland thought they drafted, and that Lee Suggs is the biggest pansy in the NFL.

 

[zamboni]

With 2004 a wash, the 2005 Browns RB is probably not on the roster right now. Green was Davis' pet project.New coach + lack of production by incumbents = fresh blood.