Buffalo Safety-Damar Hamlin is awake and **Bills at Bengals** Game has been Canceled (1 Viewer)

[BassNBrew]

Of course not. This shouldn't even be up for discussion.

If you use the logic that led us to postponement, then that logic applies to Sunday also.

I think there's a material difference between pushing a pause button when everyone is standing there shell-shocked vs. a week later when folks have had a chance to compose themselves. Lots and lots of NFL games have been played in the wake of some tragedy or another. This Sunday's games will fall into that category. Sorry if that comes across as heartless, but there's a long precedent for how to handle this type of thing. (Next week's games, not last night's game -- that's a thorny issue, illustrating why the league is right to want games to play on unless absolutely necessary).

I understand this point of view, but its also considering a best case scenario regarding Hamlin's health. Heaven forbid Buffalo has to deal with additional tragedy from this event that can happen at any moment in the upcoming week. I just agree there is no right answer and I fully respect players who say this is only a game to keep that in perspective.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article270666997.html

How long do you think construction in Charlotte is shut down? Is every scaffold in the country shut down today for a safety inspection? If I had to rate the situation I'd say the one where 3 families have lost loved ones on the job is much more severe this this situation. I suspect most of us don't care less about the construction workers, we just care more about the situation we saw live on TV.

 

[rockaction]

I just think the bar for cancelling/postponing/suspending games should be super-high

Same here, and I don't think they should have played last night. Last night seemed sui generis.

I'm really just spitballing that this might lead to issues in the future. And I'll stop at that.

T & P for the young man again.

 

[Capella]

Of course not. This shouldn't even be up for discussion.

If you use the logic that led us to postponement, then that logic applies to Sunday also.

I think there's a material difference between pushing a pause button when everyone is standing there shell-shocked vs. a week later when folks have had a chance to compose themselves. Lots and lots of NFL games have been played in the wake of some tragedy or another. This Sunday's games will fall into that category. Sorry if that comes across as heartless, but there's a long precedent for how to handle this type of thing. (Next week's games, not last night's game -- that's a thorny issue, illustrating why the league is right to want games to play on unless absolutely necessary).

I understand this point of view, but its also considering a best case scenario regarding Hamlin's health. Heaven forbid Buffalo has to deal with additional tragedy from this event that can happen at any moment in the upcoming week. I just agree there is no right answer and I fully respect players who say this is only a game to keep that in perspective.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article270666997.html

How long do you think construction in Charlotte is shut down? Is every scaffold in the country shut down today for a safety inspection? If I had to rate the situation I'd say the one where 3 families have lost loved ones on the job is much more severe this this situation. I suspect most of us don't care less about the construction workers, we just care more about the situation we saw live on TV.

Nfl players union has more power than the construction union.

 

[Rubi]

Of course not. This shouldn't even be up for discussion.

If you use the logic that led us to postponement, then that logic applies to Sunday also.

I think there's a material difference between pushing a pause button when everyone is standing there shell-shocked vs. a week later when folks have had a chance to compose themselves. Lots and lots of NFL games have been played in the wake of some tragedy or another. This Sunday's games will fall into that category. Sorry if that comes across as heartless, but there's a long precedent for how to handle this type of thing. (Next week's games, not last night's game -- that's a thorny issue, illustrating why the league is right to want games to play on unless absolutely necessary).

I understand this point of view, but its also considering a best case scenario regarding Hamlin's health. Heaven forbid Buffalo has to deal with additional tragedy from this event that can happen at any moment in the upcoming week. I just agree there is no right answer and I fully respect players who say this is only a game to keep that in perspective.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article270666997.html

How long do you think construction in Charlotte is shut down? Is every scaffold in the country shut down today for a safety inspection? If I had to rate the situation I'd say the one where 3 families have lost loved ones on the job is much more severe this this situation. I suspect most of us don't care less about the construction workers, we just care more about the situation we saw live on TV.

Nfl players union has more power than the construction union.

In North Carolina yes,in New York no

 

[hagmania]

Interesting split in this thread. I am clearly of the take that the NFL is a sports league second (or third) and a marketing/advertising business first.

They'll play the game if it makes sense for them to do so. It will be televised. Players and the union will have to make the decisions that are right for each individual case.

As horrible as the circumstances are, it's going to be a very enlightening post-incident period. A highly skilled, extremely scarce, very well-paid labor force with indirect production. Plenty have made millions; I will not be surprised whatever the outcome tbh, as humans are not uniform decision makers.

 

[dgreen]

Not an exact comparison, but Sean Taylor died on Tuesday, Washington played Sunday, funeral on Monday in Miami, played again on Thursday.

 

[knowledge dropper]

Don’t play this game. No makeup and if Bengals and Bills meet in playoffs then a neutral site could be a resolution.

If a neutral site for these two teams makes sense at some point ... they could play it in Hall of Fame Stadium in Canton, OH. That's roughly equidistant between the two cities.

Play in Detroit! That’s about as neutral as it gets for those teams.

That was my thought. Indoors and neutral.

Hey Bills....I know it's a difficult situation but we decided it's in your best interest to strip your HOA and make you travel to Detroit. Also Bills fans, thanks for you support...you're welcome to commute to Detroit to watch the game.

Cool. Now do the Bengals having to go to Buffalo instead of having a chance to beat the Bills and making that game in Cincinnati. The Bengals were rolling and have won 7 in a row. There is no “fair” resolution.

 

[rockaction]

as humans are not uniform decision makers

Weird. Over in the FFA I just said the same thing about how people are going to feel about this and how they will process their grief. I used the word "uniform" specifically.

 

[Zow]

Good luck to whoever decides when we move on/forward from this and start focusing on football/fantasy football. How do we do it?

This is a great question
No right answer because some folks will feel like nothing can be done or moved forward.
I do think leagues have 2 real choices for FF this week

1. Week 18 Replay for the Championship, this would be the reason we use the last week of the NFL as basically a safety net or not the week we crown a winner for the season.

2. Just take the prize money for 1st and 2nd and split it, if it was winner take all, split it between the Final 2, nobody else in the league should be put off by this.

-You could have someone with a healthy lead but maybe the team trailing had guys like Higgins and Diggs last night or Josh Allen/Joe Burrow(that was me) and I can see some managers not liking the outcome from last night.
-I think either of the 2 scenarios above should likely be put to a league vote
-In some of my leagues, the Commish is competing in the Championship, that's a little more tricky

This is my case. I was down 9 points at the time of the injury. My opponent has Higgins and I have Allen, Mixon and Chase. Most likely I was going to beat him but if they cancel the game I am not sure what I am going to do.

My preference is to just split the pot with my opponent and declare no Super Bowl winner for this season. The alternative is to use Week 18 for the Super Bowl but we purposely set up the league to have playoffs to end before the final game of the season.

At this point there is really nothing to do except wait to see what the NFL decides to do. Once that is known I'll discuss with my opponent and then make the final decision.

Yeah, not that fantasy should supersede this injury, but I'm not in very similar boats in a few of my leagues. In one, I'm a heavy favorite to win the title (I'm up 55 and he had Burrow and Higgins) but while my odds are good that is no lock (especially with the start of that game) so I don't blame my opponent if he wants a chop. In other leagues I'm in the third place games and would get the wins if the game just ended as is but that doesn't seem right.

I don't agree about playing week 18 as owners didn't plan for that. As much as ties suck, I think a tie is the only equitable option right now.

 

[Max Power]

Of course not. This shouldn't even be up for discussion.

If you use the logic that led us to postponement, then that logic applies to Sunday also.

I think there's a material difference between pushing a pause button when everyone is standing there shell-shocked vs. a week later when folks have had a chance to compose themselves. Lots and lots of NFL games have been played in the wake of some tragedy or another. This Sunday's games will fall into that category. Sorry if that comes across as heartless, but there's a long precedent for how to handle this type of thing. (Next week's games, not last night's game -- that's a thorny issue, illustrating why the league is right to want games to play on unless absolutely necessary).

I understand this point of view, but its also considering a best case scenario regarding Hamlin's health. Heaven forbid Buffalo has to deal with additional tragedy from this event that can happen at any moment in the upcoming week. I just agree there is no right answer and I fully respect players who say this is only a game to keep that in perspective.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article270666997.html

How long do you think construction in Charlotte is shut down? Is every scaffold in the country shut down today for a safety inspection? If I had to rate the situation I'd say the one where 3 families have lost loved ones on the job is much more severe this this situation. I suspect most of us don't care less about the construction workers, we just care more about the situation we saw live on TV.

Looks like the site has been shut down pending an investigation. Time for other workers to process it as well. I don't know how long it will close for or how long it should be closed for, but I understand where you're going with this.

This happening on live tv probably impacted people more and like it or not our society puts athletes on a pedestal.

I'm pretty emotionally shut down in regards to this type of thing due to my 20+ years with the military. I've seen people push through much worse, but these are also the people suffering emotional trauma later in life. I don't know where the balance is.

I think football is just a game and pretty meaningless on the grand scale.

 

[Zow]

I think there's a material difference between pushing a pause button when everyone is standing there shell-shocked vs. a week later when folks have had a chance to compose themselves. Lots and lots of NFL games have been played in the wake of some tragedy or another. This Sunday's games will fall into that category. Sorry if that comes across as heartless, but there's a long precedent for how to handle this type of thing. (Next week's games, not last night's game -- that's a thorny issue, illustrating why the league is right to want games to play on unless absolutely necessary).

I think there's a material difference, too. But we've seen a new line drawn about injuries and you know how I feel about slippery slopes. There aren't any. I think we've seen a new line drawn about when players will play and when they aren't going to.

I'm not bemoaning that they didn't play. I'm just saying that not recognizing the future implications because of its logic is myopic. We're going to be asked to draw lines and put boxes around concepts like grief and the like in we are to move forward with certainty about the product. That's above my pay grade to comment about the desirability of that, but that's really what you're asking them to do.

I know, and you and I probably agree on much of this. I just think the bar for cancelling/postponing/suspending games should be super-high. TBH, I'm not comfortable with last night's game being postponed -- I'm going along with it because I feel like I have to defer to all the professionals who saw what happened on the field and its aftermath.

Really? Why? Seemed to me to be the obvious result given what occurred on the field in front of the players.

I can somewhat understand not agreeing with the call but to say you're not comfortable with it.. has me perplexed as to why you would be uncomfortable.

 

[Zow]

I just think the bar for cancelling/postponing/suspending games should be super-high

Same here, and I don't think they should have played last night. Last night seemed sui generis.

I'm really just spitballing that this might lead to issues in the future. And I'll stop at that.

T & P for the young man again.

Good use, here.

 

[rockaction]

I think football is just a game and pretty meaningless on the grand scale.

Pretty much a thousand times this.

 

[menobrown]

Long read if you want to know more about Hamlin: https://www.golongtd.com/p/why-damar-hamlin-is-exactly-what

(the article is behind a paywall but if you open the link, exit out and re-enter it should open)

 

[Rubi]

I think there's a material difference between pushing a pause button when everyone is standing there shell-shocked vs. a week later when folks have had a chance to compose themselves. Lots and lots of NFL games have been played in the wake of some tragedy or another. This Sunday's games will fall into that category. Sorry if that comes across as heartless, but there's a long precedent for how to handle this type of thing. (Next week's games, not last night's game -- that's a thorny issue, illustrating why the league is right to want games to play on unless absolutely necessary).

I think there's a material difference, too. But we've seen a new line drawn about injuries and you know how I feel about slippery slopes. There aren't any. I think we've seen a new line drawn about when players will play and when they aren't going to.

I'm not bemoaning that they didn't play. I'm just saying that not recognizing the future implications because of its logic is myopic. We're going to be asked to draw lines and put boxes around concepts like grief and the like in we are to move forward with certainty about the product. That's above my pay grade to comment about the desirability of that, but that's really what you're asking them to do.

I know, and you and I probably agree on much of this. I just think the bar for cancelling/postponing/suspending games should be super-high. TBH, I'm not comfortable with last night's game being postponed -- I'm going along with it because I feel like I have to defer to all the professionals who saw what happened on the field and its aftermath.

Really? Why? Seemed to me to be the obvious result given what occurred on the field in front of the players.

I can somewhat understand not agreeing with the call but to say you're not comfortable with it.. has me perplexed as to why you would be uncomfortable.

A player suffering cardiac arrest on the field isn't a high enough bar to postpone or cancel a game? What is the bar then in your opinion?

 

[BassNBrew]

Of course not. This shouldn't even be up for discussion.

If you use the logic that led us to postponement, then that logic applies to Sunday also.

I think there's a material difference between pushing a pause button when everyone is standing there shell-shocked vs. a week later when folks have had a chance to compose themselves. Lots and lots of NFL games have been played in the wake of some tragedy or another. This Sunday's games will fall into that category. Sorry if that comes across as heartless, but there's a long precedent for how to handle this type of thing. (Next week's games, not last night's game -- that's a thorny issue, illustrating why the league is right to want games to play on unless absolutely necessary).

I understand this point of view, but its also considering a best case scenario regarding Hamlin's health. Heaven forbid Buffalo has to deal with additional tragedy from this event that can happen at any moment in the upcoming week. I just agree there is no right answer and I fully respect players who say this is only a game to keep that in perspective.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article270666997.html

How long do you think construction in Charlotte is shut down? Is every scaffold in the country shut down today for a safety inspection? If I had to rate the situation I'd say the one where 3 families have lost loved ones on the job is much more severe this this situation. I suspect most of us don't care less about the construction workers, we just care more about the situation we saw live on TV.

Nfl players union has more power than the construction union.

But less than OSHA in theory.

What becomes interesting is that the NFLPA is also responsible for representing the guy with contract performance bonus that could be impacted if the game isn't played. You have a situation where they represent players who may have competing priorities.

 

[Da Guru]

What tweet? I've seen multiple people say it's not so bad and multiple people say it's terrible but I haven't seen it posted or linked here. Maybe I missed it here?

No doubt the NFL is considering postponing the rest of this game - but how? This late in the season, a game of this magnitude is crucial to the regular-season outcome ... which suddenly seems so irrelevant.

https://twitter.com/RealSkipBayless/status/1610101204687949827?cxt=HHwWhsDU3fqgndgsAAAA

He posted a few other "clarification" tweets afterwards. I don't really see the offensive part .

I agree, at the end of the first tweet he said about how and if the game should be played "Seems so irrelevant now"

The announcers and people at ESPN were talking about how this game will resume eventually on whatever day because of the impact on standings.

Bayless is a jerk most of the time but he just repeated what most were thinking then at the end it was like who cares now?

Tweet like texts and e-mails can easily be misunderstood.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Long read if you want to know more about Hamlin: https://www.golongtd.com/p/why-damar-hamlin-is-exactly-what

(the article is behind a paywall but if you open the link, exit out and re-enter it should open)

Thanks for posting that. I was thinking that before last night, I had no idea who Hamlin was, and I was just kind of curious to know more about him. I'll wait until I read the article before forming any opinions, but at first glance sounds like he is a good kid

 

[hagmania]

I think football is just a game and pretty meaningless on the grand scale.

Pretty much a thousand times this.

I agree with you two, but that's just our perspective. Not going to judge someone if football is a true source of joy and passion.

 

[rockaction]

Bayless is like Brad Marchand of the Boston Bruins. It's his previous body of work that is the problem when he does stuff like this. His body of work is littered with inhumane, stupid, provocative things and people are no longer willing to cut him slack for it. He deserves the rep.

I didn't find his tweet at all offensive, but knowing his output, I'm not at all surprised people are having the reaction they're having to it.

 

[Zow]

Any of you FF commissioners out there getting questions from your league about how championship game / 3rd place games will be handled?

I said no idea waiting until we learn more tomorrow

Our title game the guy starting Josh Allen was down 3 points coming in and he had 2.5. Other guy has no players left. I told them to hold off and see but if the game got cancelled I have no idea what I would do. Worry about it later.

Would hope the guy "winning" by 0.5 in that scenario would be ok with no less then declaring a draw and spliting the pot....if not conceding altogether

Not that anybody was waiting for the scintillating update to my fantasy league but the guy ahead by half a point facing Josh Allen conceded. Good dude.

Nice. Honorable call there and hopefully that happens in the "almost certain" outcomes.

It's the ones where there's at least like a >10% of winning situations where it becomes tricky. Personally, I'm ahead in three games (whether for championships or third place - but all where money is involved) so a hard final here is in my favor, but I'm probably going to just proffer to split the pots. I do think I may ask to be named the champion in the league where I had very favorable odds going into the MNF game (he needed monster games from Burrow and Higgins, which is unlikely but not impossible), so I feel somewhat fair in doing that after agreeing to split the pot. In reality, it means I get to hold the league's silly little statute of Sacegawea that randomly became the league trophy.

 

[Anarchy99]

Clearly, T + P's for Hamlin and his family with hopes for a full and speedy recovery. At this point, nothing the players do moving forward will impact Hamlin's condition and recovery. But looking at the options moving forward . . . (ultimately, all this will fall on Goodell to decide).

CANCEL OR FORFEIT THE GAME:
- The league is a business, and they are in it to play games and make money. Historically, they don't cancel games. (That's the cold, practical reality of it.)
- When Chuck Hughes had a heart attack and died in 1971, they kept playing. When President Kennedy died (on a Friday), the league played a full slate of games on Sunday.
- Having a cancellation or a forfeit could result in all players on both teams losing a game check (plus game day bonuses, performance incentives, etc.). I am sure all the players suffered a jolt and a shock to their collective systems. Not sure the stars in the game would be eager to forgo $1-2 million and opt not to play.
- Not sure what the league would do if neither team wanted to finish the game. Give them both a tie? A loss? Either way, the playoff seeds could potentially be completely different.
- BUF with wins against CIN and NE would secure the #1 seed and a bye. Not so sure the Bills would be down with a forfeit, cancellation, or a tie. (Maybe they are and I am reading the situation wrong, but the further out we get from the incident, I think the more the team will want to finish out the game.)

RESCHEDULING OPTION #1:
- Have the Bills play NE and the Bengals face the Ravens on Sunday as scheduled. Finish the BUF/CIN game the following weekend. That way both teams can collect themselves, have a normal amount of rest, and be more like themselves to finish the game. Push the playoffs out a week, and only have one week before the SB. Probably the fairest outcome. Downside is all playoff teams get a bye, and the #1 seed in playoffs would have two weeks off (obviously not if BUF or CIN was the top seed).

RESCHEDULING OPTION #2:
- Finish the game tomorrow (Weds.). Move BUF/NE and CIN/BAL to Monday night. Both teams would have 4 full days off. If BUF or CIN have to play in the first playoff week, have them play on Monday night.
- Probably not the best option, as both teams would then have to have abbreviated prep time and time to mentally and physically recover for two games not just one.
- Wreaks less havoc on the entirety of the playoffs than Option #1.
- Impacts the rest of the league less but CIN and BUF a lot more.

 

[Zow]

Bayless is like Brad Marchand of the Boston Bruins. It's his previous body of work that is the problem when he does stuff like this. His body of work is littered with inhumane, stupid, provocative things and people are no longer willing to cut him slack for it. He deserves the rep.

I didn't find his tweet at all offensive, but knowing his output, I'm not at all surprised people are having the reaction they're having to it.

Yeah, I honestly didn't think his tweet was terrible especially given the timing of when it was sent. But, he's kind of like Suh where he's deservedly lost any benefit of the doubt when he does something questionable.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Really? Why? Seemed to me to be the obvious result given what occurred on the field in front of the players.

I can somewhat understand not agreeing with the call but to say you're not comfortable with it.. has me perplexed as to why you would be uncomfortable.

I mean exactly what I said. I'm not opposed to the decision to postpone the game. Just uncomfortable with it.

 

[Zow]

I think there's a material difference between pushing a pause button when everyone is standing there shell-shocked vs. a week later when folks have had a chance to compose themselves. Lots and lots of NFL games have been played in the wake of some tragedy or another. This Sunday's games will fall into that category. Sorry if that comes across as heartless, but there's a long precedent for how to handle this type of thing. (Next week's games, not last night's game -- that's a thorny issue, illustrating why the league is right to want games to play on unless absolutely necessary).

I think there's a material difference, too. But we've seen a new line drawn about injuries and you know how I feel about slippery slopes. There aren't any. I think we've seen a new line drawn about when players will play and when they aren't going to.

I'm not bemoaning that they didn't play. I'm just saying that not recognizing the future implications because of its logic is myopic. We're going to be asked to draw lines and put boxes around concepts like grief and the like in we are to move forward with certainty about the product. That's above my pay grade to comment about the desirability of that, but that's really what you're asking them to do.

I know, and you and I probably agree on much of this. I just think the bar for cancelling/postponing/suspending games should be super-high. TBH, I'm not comfortable with last night's game being postponed -- I'm going along with it because I feel like I have to defer to all the professionals who saw what happened on the field and its aftermath.

Really? Why? Seemed to me to be the obvious result given what occurred on the field in front of the players.

I can somewhat understand not agreeing with the call but to say you're not comfortable with it.. has me perplexed as to why you would be uncomfortable.

A player suffering cardiac arrest on the field isn't a high enough bar to postpone or cancel a game? What is the bar then in your opinion?

Are you asking me? If my post was unclear, I 100% back and am comfortable with them suspending the game indefinitely. I was asking @IvanKaramazov why he says he was uncomfortable with this decision.

 

[BassNBrew]

Don’t play this game. No makeup and if Bengals and Bills meet in playoffs then a neutral site could be a resolution.

If a neutral site for these two teams makes sense at some point ... they could play it in Hall of Fame Stadium in Canton, OH. That's roughly equidistant between the two cities.

Play in Detroit! That’s about as neutral as it gets for those teams.

That was my thought. Indoors and neutral.

Hey Bills....I know it's a difficult situation but we decided it's in your best interest to strip your HOA and make you travel to Detroit. Also Bills fans, thanks for you support...you're welcome to commute to Detroit to watch the game.

Cool. Now do the Bengals having to go to Buffalo instead of having a chance to beat the Bills and making that game in Cincinnati. The Bengals were rolling and have won 7 in a row. There is no “fair” resolution.

Play the game if possible. If not then move on with 16 games and let things fall as they may. You can't compound the situation by making up rules to make things "fair".

Of course not. This shouldn't even be up for discussion.

If you use the logic that led us to postponement, then that logic applies to Sunday also.

I think there's a material difference between pushing a pause button when everyone is standing there shell-shocked vs. a week later when folks have had a chance to compose themselves. Lots and lots of NFL games have been played in the wake of some tragedy or another. This Sunday's games will fall into that category. Sorry if that comes across as heartless, but there's a long precedent for how to handle this type of thing. (Next week's games, not last night's game -- that's a thorny issue, illustrating why the league is right to want games to play on unless absolutely necessary).

I understand this point of view, but its also considering a best case scenario regarding Hamlin's health. Heaven forbid Buffalo has to deal with additional tragedy from this event that can happen at any moment in the upcoming week. I just agree there is no right answer and I fully respect players who say this is only a game to keep that in perspective.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article270666997.html

How long do you think construction in Charlotte is shut down? Is every scaffold in the country shut down today for a safety inspection? If I had to rate the situation I'd say the one where 3 families have lost loved ones on the job is much more severe this this situation. I suspect most of us don't care less about the construction workers, we just care more about the situation we saw live on TV.

Looks like the site has been shut down pending an investigation. Time for other workers to process it as well. I don't know how long it will close for or how long it should be closed for, but I understand where you're going with this.

This happening on live tv probably impacted people more and like it or not our society puts athletes on a pedestal.

I'm pretty emotionally shut down in regards to this type of thing due to my 20+ years with the military. I've seen people push through much worse, but these are also the people suffering emotional trauma later in life. I don't know where the balance is.

I think football is just a game and pretty meaningless on the grand scale.

Interesting that you mention this. I was thinking earlier about you're career and you'r co-workers don't have the option to shut it down if something bad happens. And while football is meaningless on the grand scale, the hundreds of millions of dollars aren't. There is live changing money involved for many people and even the players with an average 3.3 yr career length can be impacted indirectly depending on playoff success. Somebody/people will be tasked with weighing all that out and coming up with a solution.

 

[Zow]

Really? Why? Seemed to me to be the obvious result given what occurred on the field in front of the players.

I can somewhat understand not agreeing with the call but to say you're not comfortable with it.. has me perplexed as to why you would be uncomfortable.

I mean exactly what I said. I'm not opposed to the decision to postpone the game. Just uncomfortable with it.

Why does it make you uncomfortable? I think the term "uncomfortable" is what has me hung up as one can rationally disagree with a decision but still be plenty comfortable with it. When you say uncomfortable, I infer from that that you have a fundamental philosophical disagreement with it.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

---

Bayless is like Brad Marchand of the Boston Bruins. It's his previous body of work that is the problem when he does stuff like this. His body of work is littered with inhumane, stupid, provocative things and people are no longer willing to cut him slack for it. He deserves the rep.

I didn't find his tweet at all offensive, but knowing his output, I'm not at all surprised people are having the reaction they're having to it.

I had the same reaction. I also think that at moments like that, people feel the need to have strong reactions, even better if they can find a villain. Hence all the takes in here about the NFL and the "five minutes", ESPN's coverage, etc. I'm not even judging anyone for that stuff. I think it's a totally normal human response. Seeing someone collapse like that is super scary and forces us all to confront our own mortality. We're going to have reactions that, in the cold light of day, may seem inappropriate.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Really? Why? Seemed to me to be the obvious result given what occurred on the field in front of the players.

I can somewhat understand not agreeing with the call but to say you're not comfortable with it.. has me perplexed as to why you would be uncomfortable.

I mean exactly what I said. I'm not opposed to the decision to postpone the game. Just uncomfortable with it.

Why does it make you uncomfortable? I think the term "uncomfortable" is what has me hung up as one can rationally disagree with a decision but still be plenty comfortable with it. When you say uncomfortable, I infer from that that you have a fundamental philosophical disagreement with it.

No, that's not what I meant. I'm reluctantly okay with postponing the game as an absolute last resort if players and coaches were definitely unable to play on. They said they weren't able to continue, so okay. But the conversation that we're having right now about how to finish the season and under what other circumstances other future games should also be postponed is why I don't like having gone down this road.

 

[Zow]

Really? Why? Seemed to me to be the obvious result given what occurred on the field in front of the players.

I can somewhat understand not agreeing with the call but to say you're not comfortable with it.. has me perplexed as to why you would be uncomfortable.

I mean exactly what I said. I'm not opposed to the decision to postpone the game. Just uncomfortable with it.

Why does it make you uncomfortable? I think the term "uncomfortable" is what has me hung up as one can rationally disagree with a decision but still be plenty comfortable with it. When you say uncomfortable, I infer from that that you have a fundamental philosophical disagreement with it.

No, that's not what I meant. I'm reluctantly okay with postponing the game as an absolute last resort if players and coaches were definitely unable to play on. They said they weren't able to continue, so okay. But the conversation that we're having right now about how to finish the season and under what other circumstances other future games should also be postponed is why I don't like having gone down this road.

Okay, thanks for explaining.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Of course not. This shouldn't even be up for discussion.

If you use the logic that led us to postponement, then that logic applies to Sunday also.

I think there's a material difference between pushing a pause button when everyone is standing there shell-shocked vs. a week later when folks have had a chance to compose themselves. Lots and lots of NFL games have been played in the wake of some tragedy or another. This Sunday's games will fall into that category. Sorry if that comes across as heartless, but there's a long precedent for how to handle this type of thing. (Next week's games, not last night's game -- that's a thorny issue, illustrating why the league is right to want games to play on unless absolutely necessary).

I understand this point of view, but its also considering a best case scenario regarding Hamlin's health. Heaven forbid Buffalo has to deal with additional tragedy from this event that can happen at any moment in the upcoming week. I just agree there is no right answer and I fully respect players who say this is only a game to keep that in perspective.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article270666997.html

How long do you think construction in Charlotte is shut down? Is every scaffold in the country shut down today for a safety inspection? If I had to rate the situation I'd say the one where 3 families have lost loved ones on the job is much more severe this this situation. I suspect most of us don't care less about the construction workers, we just care more about the situation we saw live on TV.

Last spring the CEO of my organization died unexpectedly of a heart attack on a Sunday. We all showed up for work the next day (not that we got much done). I suspect the fact that it was something that affected all of us made it more important to show up; if one person had suddenly lost a family member no one would have expected them to come to work, but we weren't going to shut down the entire org.

I think you have to take situations like this as they come and do what's best in the moment. Last night that clearly meant postponing the game.

 

[hagmania]

I shake my head at the fretting over fairness in how this gets resolved. In my opinion, the only reason the NFL cares about fairness is if it is a perceived better long term investment than the short term loss of any sort of "fair" outcome.

At least they might draw up some better protocol because of this incident going forward.

 

[Rubi]

I think there's a material difference between pushing a pause button when everyone is standing there shell-shocked vs. a week later when folks have had a chance to compose themselves. Lots and lots of NFL games have been played in the wake of some tragedy or another. This Sunday's games will fall into that category. Sorry if that comes across as heartless, but there's a long precedent for how to handle this type of thing. (Next week's games, not last night's game -- that's a thorny issue, illustrating why the league is right to want games to play on unless absolutely necessary).

I think there's a material difference, too. But we've seen a new line drawn about injuries and you know how I feel about slippery slopes. There aren't any. I think we've seen a new line drawn about when players will play and when they aren't going to.

I'm not bemoaning that they didn't play. I'm just saying that not recognizing the future implications because of its logic is myopic. We're going to be asked to draw lines and put boxes around concepts like grief and the like in we are to move forward with certainty about the product. That's above my pay grade to comment about the desirability of that, but that's really what you're asking them to do.

I know, and you and I probably agree on much of this. I just think the bar for cancelling/postponing/suspending games should be super-high. TBH, I'm not comfortable with last night's game being postponed -- I'm going along with it because I feel like I have to defer to all the professionals who saw what happened on the field and its aftermath.

Really? Why? Seemed to me to be the obvious result given what occurred on the field in front of the players.

I can somewhat understand not agreeing with the call but to say you're not comfortable with it.. has me perplexed as to why you would be uncomfortable.

A player suffering cardiac arrest on the field isn't a high enough bar to postpone or cancel a game? What is the bar then in your opinion?

Are you asking me? If my post was unclear, I 100% back and am comfortable with them suspending the game indefinitely. I was asking @IvanKaramazov why he says he was uncomfortable with this decision.

Sorry,reply was directed to Ivan,my bad

 

[rockaction]

I shake my head at the fretting over fairness in how this gets resolved. In my opinion, the only reason the NFL cares about fairness is if it is a perceived better long term investment than the short term loss of any sort of "fair" outcome.

Reminds me of getting corrected a while back on this site. Somebody asked what it was the owners wanted. "To win," I said. I got corrected. It was somebody intoning simply "No, it's profit." It's professional sports. The only reason fairness matters is that it's better for the bottom line.

 

[Zow]

I shake my head at the fretting over fairness in how this gets resolved. In my opinion, the only reason the NFL cares about fairness is if it is a perceived better long term investment than the short term loss of any sort of "fair" outcome.

At least they might draw up some better protocol because of this incident going forward.

I get your point, but it's not like their going to cancel the season and this was, after all, a significantly meaningful game for the AFC playoff picture. The fretting sucks and is unfortunate, but it's a necessary evil that doesn't imply some insensitivity to Hamlin.

 

[Bri]

It may be well done past time that we reconsider how this game is played. Player safety is critical and the NFL needs to step up and see what changes are needed.

So you saw the replay....what would you change?

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

I shake my head at the fretting over fairness in how this gets resolved. In my opinion, the only reason the NFL cares about fairness is if it is a perceived better long term investment than the short term loss of any sort of "fair" outcome.

At least they might draw up some better protocol because of this incident going forward.

I think your second paragraph partially explains your first. One of the reason the league cares about "fairness" is because whatever they do will set a precedent for the next time something like this happens

 

[Zow]

It may be well done past time that we reconsider how this game is played. Player safety is critical and the NFL needs to step up and see what changes are needed.

So you saw the replay....what would you change?

Yeah this tackle happens 1000s of time per season. Just a total fluke, unfortunately.

 

[hagmania]

I shake my head at the fretting over fairness in how this gets resolved. In my opinion, the only reason the NFL cares about fairness is if it is a perceived better long term investment than the short term loss of any sort of "fair" outcome.

Reminds me of getting corrected a while back on this site. Somebody asked what it was the owners wanted. "To win," I said. I got corrected. It was somebody intoning simply "No, it's profit." It's professional sports. The only reason fairness matters is that it's better for the bottom line.

I may have just watched too much pro wrestling to be any less cynical in how I view any and all live entertainment. Those things exist because they make money - which really sucks in the grand architecture of human existence but there you have it.

I don't know what the gate numbers are like for NFL teams these days. I'm sure they're absurd. Still trumped by advertising dollars.

 

[Snotbubbles]

It may be well done past time that we reconsider how this game is played. Player safety is critical and the NFL needs to step up and see what changes are needed.

There are lots of things we can point to and question player safety.

This aint it. This was a freak occurence. There have been thousands, 10's of thousands of shoulders lowered into a guy's chest.
I think if we're saying you can't lower your shoulder to break a tackle/fight for more yards in the name of safety--You almost have to cancel football all together.

I think in the offseason maybe they need to look at some kind of heart protection like little leaguers use.

Don't think this was from any contact. Christian Eriksen of Denmark had the same thing happen to him in a game in 2021. No contact, just dropped. Good news, he returned to play less than a year after his incident.

 

[Bri]

Don’t play this game. No makeup and if Bengals and Bills meet in playoffs then a neutral site could be a resolution.

Honestly, I like this solution. Whoever won this game would likely have had home field (relative to the other - not necessarily home field overall), so it would make sense as a no-contest. If there could be some way to ensure some kind of 50/50 ticket sales split between the teams and a reasonably equitable distance, that's a cool idea. Pittsburgh (4 hr 30 min from Cincinnati and 3 hr 30 min from Buffalo) or Cleveland (3 hr 45 min from Cincinnati and 3 hr from Buffalo) could work.

If they're picking neutral then Tennessee might be better weather.
Weird but true that home teams love snow and everyone else doesn't.

 

[BassNBrew]

I shake my head at the fretting over fairness in how this gets resolved. In my opinion, the only reason the NFL cares about fairness is if it is a perceived better long term investment than the short term loss of any sort of "fair" outcome.

At least they might draw up some better protocol because of this incident going forward.

Impossible.

Head coach a heart attack and dies during the game.
Head coach a heart attack and is hospitalized during the game.
Head coach a heart attack and dies game day morning.
Head coach a heart attack and is hospitalized game day morning.

Repeat for the night before, two days prior, etc.

Now insert OC, DL line coach, equipment manager, team PR director, etc

Now insert contingencies based on distance between the teams or if the stadium is shared or otherwise scheduled.

 

[-OZ-]

Don’t play this game. No makeup and if Bengals and Bills meet in playoffs then a neutral site could be a resolution.

If a neutral site for these two teams makes sense at some point ... they could play it in Hall of Fame Stadium in Canton, OH. That's roughly equidistant between the two cities.

Play in Detroit! That’s about as neutral as it gets for those teams.

That was my thought. Indoors and neutral.

Hey Bills....I know it's a difficult situation but we decided it's in your best interest to strip your HOA and make you travel to Detroit. Also Bills fans, thanks for you support...you're welcome to commute to Detroit to watch the game.

Cool. Now do the Bengals having to go to Buffalo instead of having a chance to beat the Bills and making that game in Cincinnati. The Bengals were rolling and have won 7 in a row. There is no “fair” resolution.

Play the game if possible. If not then move on with 16 games and let things fall as they may. You can't compound the situation by making up rules to make things "fair".

Of course not. This shouldn't even be up for discussion.

If you use the logic that led us to postponement, then that logic applies to Sunday also.

I think there's a material difference between pushing a pause button when everyone is standing there shell-shocked vs. a week later when folks have had a chance to compose themselves. Lots and lots of NFL games have been played in the wake of some tragedy or another. This Sunday's games will fall into that category. Sorry if that comes across as heartless, but there's a long precedent for how to handle this type of thing. (Next week's games, not last night's game -- that's a thorny issue, illustrating why the league is right to want games to play on unless absolutely necessary).

I understand this point of view, but its also considering a best case scenario regarding Hamlin's health. Heaven forbid Buffalo has to deal with additional tragedy from this event that can happen at any moment in the upcoming week. I just agree there is no right answer and I fully respect players who say this is only a game to keep that in perspective.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article270666997.html

How long do you think construction in Charlotte is shut down? Is every scaffold in the country shut down today for a safety inspection? If I had to rate the situation I'd say the one where 3 families have lost loved ones on the job is much more severe this this situation. I suspect most of us don't care less about the construction workers, we just care more about the situation we saw live on TV.

Looks like the site has been shut down pending an investigation. Time for other workers to process it as well. I don't know how long it will close for or how long it should be closed for, but I understand where you're going with this.

This happening on live tv probably impacted people more and like it or not our society puts athletes on a pedestal.

I'm pretty emotionally shut down in regards to this type of thing due to my 20+ years with the military. I've seen people push through much worse, but these are also the people suffering emotional trauma later in life. I don't know where the balance is.

I think football is just a game and pretty meaningless on the grand scale.

Interesting that you mention this. I was thinking earlier about you're career and you'r co-workers don't have the option to shut it down if something bad happens. And while football is meaningless on the grand scale, the hundreds of millions of dollars aren't. There is live changing money involved for many people and even the players with an average 3.3 yr career length can be impacted indirectly depending on playoff success. Somebody/people will be tasked with weighing all that out and coming up with a solution.

It’s really tough to make a comparison in some of our fields. Even the Army took time to talk to those impacted and provided counseling for deaths and effective engagements (euphemism for kills) while I was deployed. Similar to linemen, cops, etc. but this is different.

 

[-OZ-]

Don’t play this game. No makeup and if Bengals and Bills meet in playoffs then a neutral site could be a resolution.

Honestly, I like this solution. Whoever won this game would likely have had home field (relative to the other - not necessarily home field overall), so it would make sense as a no-contest. If there could be some way to ensure some kind of 50/50 ticket sales split between the teams and a reasonably equitable distance, that's a cool idea. Pittsburgh (4 hr 30 min from Cincinnati and 3 hr 30 min from Buffalo) or Cleveland (3 hr 45 min from Cincinnati and 3 hr from Buffalo) could work.

If they're picking neutral then Tennessee might be better weather.
Weird but true that home teams love snow and everyone else doesn't.

Hey, we’re still hoping to be in it! Unless you mean Knoxville?
But you don’t get better weather for the game than Detroit.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

It may be well done past time that we reconsider how this game is played. Player safety is critical and the NFL needs to step up and see what changes are needed.

There are lots of things we can point to and question player safety.

This aint it. This was a freak occurence. There have been thousands, 10's of thousands of shoulders lowered into a guy's chest.
I think if we're saying you can't lower your shoulder to break a tackle/fight for more yards in the name of safety--You almost have to cancel football all together.

I think in the offseason maybe they need to look at some kind of heart protection like little leaguers use.

Don't think this was from any contact. Christian Eriksen of Denmark had the same thing happen to him in a game in 2021. No contact, just dropped. Good news, he returned to play less than a year after his incident.

Eriksen's case was different. He had some sort of a cardiac event. But with Hamlin, by all accounts it was due to the impact of Higgins' helmet to his chest causing a heart arrhythmia

(Standard disclaimer that I may be getting terms completely wrong here, but the basic idea is that Eriksen's was non-contact and Hamlin's was due to contact).

 

[sho nuff]

It may be well done past time that we reconsider how this game is played. Player safety is critical and the NFL needs to step up and see what changes are needed.

There are lots of things we can point to and question player safety.

This aint it. This was a freak occurence. There have been thousands, 10's of thousands of shoulders lowered into a guy's chest.
I think if we're saying you can't lower your shoulder to break a tackle/fight for more yards in the name of safety--You almost have to cancel football all together.

I think in the offseason maybe they need to look at some kind of heart protection like little leaguers use.

Don't think this was from any contact. Christian Eriksen of Denmark had the same thing happen to him in a game in 2021. No contact, just dropped. Good news, he returned to play less than a year after his incident.

May not be exactly the same as Eriksen. We won't really know until/unless the doctors tell us. Until then it is all speculation...and IMO this did appear to be from contact. Similar to Chris Pronger taking a puck to the chest. Starting to skate off before collapsing. We won't really know until/unless the doctors tell us. Until then it is all speculation.

 

[BassNBrew]

Don’t play this game. No makeup and if Bengals and Bills meet in playoffs then a neutral site could be a resolution.

If a neutral site for these two teams makes sense at some point ... they could play it in Hall of Fame Stadium in Canton, OH. That's roughly equidistant between the two cities.

Play in Detroit! That’s about as neutral as it gets for those teams.

That was my thought. Indoors and neutral.

Hey Bills....I know it's a difficult situation but we decided it's in your best interest to strip your HOA and make you travel to Detroit. Also Bills fans, thanks for you support...you're welcome to commute to Detroit to watch the game.

Cool. Now do the Bengals having to go to Buffalo instead of having a chance to beat the Bills and making that game in Cincinnati. The Bengals were rolling and have won 7 in a row. There is no “fair” resolution.

Play the game if possible. If not then move on with 16 games and let things fall as they may. You can't compound the situation by making up rules to make things "fair".

Of course not. This shouldn't even be up for discussion.

If you use the logic that led us to postponement, then that logic applies to Sunday also.

I think there's a material difference between pushing a pause button when everyone is standing there shell-shocked vs. a week later when folks have had a chance to compose themselves. Lots and lots of NFL games have been played in the wake of some tragedy or another. This Sunday's games will fall into that category. Sorry if that comes across as heartless, but there's a long precedent for how to handle this type of thing. (Next week's games, not last night's game -- that's a thorny issue, illustrating why the league is right to want games to play on unless absolutely necessary).

I understand this point of view, but its also considering a best case scenario regarding Hamlin's health. Heaven forbid Buffalo has to deal with additional tragedy from this event that can happen at any moment in the upcoming week. I just agree there is no right answer and I fully respect players who say this is only a game to keep that in perspective.

https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article270666997.html

How long do you think construction in Charlotte is shut down? Is every scaffold in the country shut down today for a safety inspection? If I had to rate the situation I'd say the one where 3 families have lost loved ones on the job is much more severe this this situation. I suspect most of us don't care less about the construction workers, we just care more about the situation we saw live on TV.

Looks like the site has been shut down pending an investigation. Time for other workers to process it as well. I don't know how long it will close for or how long it should be closed for, but I understand where you're going with this.

This happening on live tv probably impacted people more and like it or not our society puts athletes on a pedestal.

I'm pretty emotionally shut down in regards to this type of thing due to my 20+ years with the military. I've seen people push through much worse, but these are also the people suffering emotional trauma later in life. I don't know where the balance is.

I think football is just a game and pretty meaningless on the grand scale.

Interesting that you mention this. I was thinking earlier about you're career and you'r co-workers don't have the option to shut it down if something bad happens. And while football is meaningless on the grand scale, the hundreds of millions of dollars aren't. There is live changing money involved for many people and even the players with an average 3.3 yr career length can be impacted indirectly depending on playoff success. Somebody/people will be tasked with weighing all that out and coming up with a solution.

It’s really tough to make a comparison in some of our fields. Even the Army took time to talk to those impacted and provided counseling for deaths and effective engagements (euphemism for kills) while I was deployed. Similar to linemen, cops, etc. but this is different.

A maybe that's what the NFL does here. A city doesn't shut down an entire police department when someone is lost in the line of duty. Maybe those that don't feel up to playing opt out and someone plays in their place but the game is finished. This will impact every player differently.

 

[dnurk]

I know many of you don’t follow international soccer closely but something very similar happened last year when one of the best players on the pitch collapsed during the Euro Championship tournament. Players ended up finishing that game.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/...ksen-collapses-middle-euro-2020-game-n1270583

eta see this was just being discussed as I was typing this.

 

[sho nuff]

I know many of you don’t follow international soccer closely but something very similar happened last year when one of the best players on the pitch collapsed during the Euro Championship tournament. Players ended up finishing that game.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/...ksen-collapses-middle-euro-2020-game-n1270583

He may also have already been stable when players agreed to finish the match. Whereas there were still so many unknowns of Hamlin's condition at the time.

 

[Judge Smails]

can’t believe the talk here of a potential forfeit. On what grounds? That seems so ridiculous to me