Can We Civilly Discuss Thoughts On Vaccination? A Poll. (2 Viewers)

[supermike80]

A relatively mild case seems prety helpful compared to death or a much worse case

In what % of cases for the unvaccinated does this happen again?  So covid automatically means hospital or WORSE!! FEAR!!

Wow you guys.  

 

[supermike80]

unfortunately, uninformed conspiracy theorists will never understand this.   

Uninformed conspiracy theorists that have the statistics on their side that say the MAJORITY, the HUGE Majority of Covid patients can recover at home and don't need hospitalization.  That conspiracy?

If you are determined to live your life in fear no one can tell you not to, but the statistics simply don't back it up.

Whereas you actually go the shots and got Covid anyway, THEN told anyone to get the shots.

Do you realize how silly that statement is?  Forget science, forget statistics, just regurgitate what you are being spoon fed.  It's literally insanity at this point.

 

[Chaz McNulty]

Uninformed conspiracy theorists that have the statistics on their side that say the MAJORITY, the HUGE Majority of Covid patients can recover at home and don't need hospitalization.  That conspiracy?

If you are determined to live your life in fear no one can tell you not to, but the statistics simply don't back it up.

Whereas you actually go the shots and got Covid anyway, THEN told anyone to get the shots.

Do you realize how silly that statement is?  Forget science, forget statistics, just regurgitate what you are being spoon fed.  It's literally insanity at this point.

Can you tell me what the statistics are for the percent of hospitalizations of vax/unvaxed, compared to the percent of the population that is vaxxed/unvaxxed?

 

[supermike80]

Can you tell me what the statistics are for the percent of hospitalizations of vax/unvaxed, compared to the percent of the population that is vaxxed/unvaxxed?

Is your computer not working.  Look that data up yourself dude.  I'm not your data collector.

 

[Dickies]

Uninformed conspiracy theorists that have the statistics on their side that say the MAJORITY, the HUGE Majority of Covid patients can recover at home and don't need hospitalization.  That conspiracy?

If you are determined to live your life in fear no one can tell you not to, but the statistics simply don't back it up.

Whereas you actually go the shots and got Covid anyway, THEN told anyone to get the shots.

Do you realize how silly that statement is?  Forget science, forget statistics, just regurgitate what you are being spoon fed.  It's literally insanity at this point.

You don’t understand how statistics work. At all. 

 

[supermike80]

You don’t understand how statistics work. At all. 

Right.  Sure.  If anything i Said isn't true, then prove it.  

If you are saying the majority of people do end up in the hospital(or worse) when contracting covid, then please prove it.

Otherwise that line was just a driveby and worthless.

 

[Amused to Death]

Is your computer not working.  Look that data up yourself dude.  I'm not your data collector.

HEALTH AND SCIENCE

CDC study shows unvaccinated people are 29 times more likely to be hospitalized with Covid

 

[IvanKaramazov]

It probably kept me out of the hospital. 

And it also probably gave you some peace of mind to know that while you felt pretty crummy, your condition wasn't going to deteriorate any further.  Being sick is no fun, but being sick and watching television mindlessly isn't so bad.  Being sick and also constantly worrying about whether you're going to need to visit the ER tomorrow or the next day would really suck.

 

[supermike80]

HEALTH AND SCIENCE

CDC study shows unvaccinated people are 29 times more likely to be hospitalized with Covid

Um...Sorry....That wasn't my point. My point, again, was that you are more likely to NOT need to go to the hospital if you have covid.  

I made no correlation between vaxxed and unvaxxed.  But that was adorable.

 

[supermike80]

And it also probably gave you some peace of mind to know that while you felt pretty crummy, your condition wasn't going to deteriorate any further.  Being sick is no fun, but being sick and watching television mindlessly isn't so bad.  Being sick and also constantly worrying about whether you're going to need to visit the ER tomorrow or the next day would really suck.

At least there is logic to this response.  

 

[Amused to Death]

Um...Sorry....That wasn't my point. My point, again, was that you are more likely to NOT need to go to the hospital if you have covid.  

I made no correlation between vaxxed and unvaxxed.  But that was adorable.

But of the two groups, vaxxed vs. unvaxxed, you're 29 times more likely to end up in the hospital if you're unvaccinated.

So to the point, being vaccinated greatly reduced the chance of having to be hospitalized. 

 

[Dickies]

Right.  Sure.  If anything i Said isn't true, then prove it.  

If you are saying the majority of people do end up in the hospital(or worse) when contracting covid, then please prove it.

Otherwise that line was just a driveby and worthless.

No.  I'm saying the vast majority of those who end up in the hospital are unvaccinated despite the majority of Americans being vaccinated

 

[Chaz McNulty]

Um...Sorry....That wasn't my point. My point, again, was that you are more likely to NOT need to go to the hospital if you have covid.  

I made no correlation between vaxxed and unvaxxed.  But that was adorable.

You seem to be into statistics.  Do you know what the capacity of the average hospital would be right now if no one was vaccinated?  If you just prorated the unvaccinated population numbers to 100% of society and then did the same for hospital ICU rooms.

Really easy math.

 

[fatness]

Can you tell me what the statistics are for the percent of hospitalizations of vax/unvaxed, compared to the percent of the population that is vaxxed/unvaxxed?

Yes. https://kingcounty.gov/depts/health/covid-19/data/vaccination-outcomes.aspx

Unvaccinated people are 7 times more likely to test positive, 49 times more likely to be hospitalized, and 32 times more likely to die from COVID than are unvaccinated people.

 

[jobarules]

There's a 5% chance of being hospitalized with covid while unvaxxed. So saying the vaccine PROBABLY kept him out of the hospital is an erroneous statement. Instead it should be the vaccine improved his chances of staying out of the hospital. Stop with the hyperbole. 

 

[the moops]

There's a 5% chance of being hospitalized with covid while unvaxxed. So saying the vaccine PROBABLY kept him out of the hospital is an erroneous statement. Instead it should be the vaccine improved his chances of staying out of the hospital. Stop with the hyperbole. 

There is also the difference in having a mild vs severe case. Which needs ot be part of the calculus, for @supermike80 cannonballed in here saying that the vaccine did nothing. So, the chances of hospitalization + the chances of haveing a severe case add up to more than a 5% chance.

 

[Witz]

Folks wearing seatbelts have died in car crashes just as folks who weren’t wearing seatbelts have died in car crashes.

That doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t wear a seatbelt while in a car. Wearing a seatbelt increases your chances of surviving and reduces your chances of serious injury (that doesn’t mean it completely negates your chances of experiencing either though). 

Same holds true with getting vaccinated. 

 

[The Commish]

Vincent Racaniello: Viruses and Vaccines | Lex Fridman Podcast #216

Time well spent IMO if you genuinely want to understand viruses, how they work and their role in the world.  It's broken into chunks so you can go to the areas of interest, but the entire thing is great.

The people that need to watch this, won't but I bolded what is probably the most important as those keep coming up here...well some of them.  The first hour is establishing the interviewee's credentials and listening to his understanding of science.

3:11 - Microbiology by numbers
8:33 - From bacteria to an organism
16:32 - AlphaFold 2
20:31 - Simulating an evolutionary arms race
45:57 - The most terrifying virus
1:07:41 - SARS-CoV-2
1:22:25 - Coronaviruses and Influenza. What's the difference?
1:28:31 - Vaccines
1:34:29 - Lex on his reaction to the COVID-19 vaccine shot
1:40:25 - Modern vaccines
1:45:25 - How does mRNA vaccine work?
1:48:12 - Are mRNA vaccines safe?
2:14:38 - Lex on trust in authority
2:29:45 - Ivermectin
2:36:26 - Hydroxychloroquine
2:41:08 - Variants and mutations
2:48:06 - Testing
2:56:13 - How does COVID-19 spread?
2:59:24 - Masks
3:07:52 - Bret Weinstein vs Sam Harris
3:11:26 - This Week in Virology
3:21:06 - Advice for young people
3:23:28 - Meaning of life

 

[supermike80]

But of the two groups, vaxxed vs. unvaxxed, you're 29 times more likely to end up in the hospital if you're unvaccinated.

So to the point, being vaccinated greatly reduced the chance of having to be hospitalized. 

I agree with this completely.   Totally off topic but yes you're right

 

[supermike80]

No.  I'm saying the vast majority of those who end up in the hospital are unvaccinated despite the majority of Americans being vaccinated

Yes.  True.  Whats your point?

 

[supermike80]

You seem to be into statistics.  Do you know what the capacity of the average hospital would be right now if no one was vaccinated?  If you just prorated the unvaccinated population numbers to 100% of society and then did the same for hospital ICU rooms.

Really easy math.

Yes. True.  It would be terrible.  Its good we have a vaccine 

 

[supermike80]

There is also the difference in having a mild vs severe case. Which needs ot be part of the calculus, for @supermike80 cannonballed in here saying that the vaccine did nothing. So, the chances of hospitalization + the chances of haveing a severe case add up to more than a 5% chance.

So you're confirming what I said right?

The chance of a hospital visit is small?  Cause many of you are under the ridiculous belief that getting covid automatically equals hospital or worse.   And im saying that's not true.  Not even close. We have a poster here thats CONVINCED that getting the vax kept him out of the hospital.  What he's basing that on i don't know.  But most, no the overwhelming majority, of people who contract covid do not end up in the hospital. 

Crazy.

 

[zoonation]

Uninformed conspiracy theorists that have the statistics on their side that say the MAJORITY, the HUGE Majority of Covid patients can recover at home and don't need hospitalization.  That conspiracy?

If you are determined to live your life in fear no one can tell you not to, but the statistics simply don't back it up.

Whereas you actually go the shots and got Covid anyway, THEN told anyone to get the shots.

Do you realize how silly that statement is?  Forget science, forget statistics, just regurgitate what you are being spoon fed.  It's literally insanity at this point.

What percentage of hospital covid patients are vaccinated versus unvaccinated?  Who is responsible for overloading the healthcare system. 
 

Where I live it is 85% unvaxxed in hospital and 97% in the ICU.  The unvaccinated are the reason this pandemic won’t end.  

 

[the moops]

So you're confirming what I said right?

The chance of a hospital visit is small?  Cause many of you are under the ridiculous belief that getting covid automatically equals hospital or worse.   And im saying that's not true.  Not even close. We have a poster here thats CONVINCED that getting the vax kept him out of the hospital.  What he's basing that on i don't know.  But most, no the overwhelming majority, of people who contract covid do not end up in the hospital. 

Crazy.

Yes, we agree that most people do not end up in the hospital. Vaxxed or not. You didn't type about just hospitalizations though.

This is what you wrote

Why? It didn't help you.  At all

 

[Dickies]

Yes.  True.  Whats your point?

Keep trolling.

 

[supermike80]

What percentage of hospital covid patients are vaccinated versus unvaccinated?  Who is responsible for overloading the healthcare system. 
 

Where I live it is 85% unvaxxed in hospital and 97% in the ICU.  The unvaccinated are the reason this pandemic won’t end.  

Still.missing.the.point

 

[supermike80]

Yes, we agree that most people do not end up in the hospital. Vaxxed or not. You didn't type about just hospitalizations though.

This is what you wrote

Why? It didn't help you.  At all

He got covid. So no help there

As far as preventing hospitalization, considering most of those infected with covid dont end up in the hospital i dont see how he benefited 

 

[the moops]

He got covid. So no help there

As far as preventing hospitalization, considering most of those infected with covid dont end up in the hospital i dont see how he benefited 

Can you agree that there is a spectrum of outcomes besides asymptomatic and in the hospital on a death bed?

 

[supermike80]

Can you agree that there is a spectrum of outcomes besides asymptomatic and in the hospital on a death bed?

Yes I can

 

[kface]

To answer the question of the original poster - no, we can't discuss it civilly

 

[supermike80]

To answer the question of the original poster - no, we can't discuss it civilly

Why not?  Here you go again. Does a civil discussion mean everyone has to agree?  Is that what youd prefer?

 

[The Z Machine]

Seems extreme.  How often do you have 10+ person meetings?

Well we had one 2 weeks ago and were planning another one in 2 weeks.  It'd say once a month or more if there weren't any restrictions. 

 

[Max Power]

Well we had one 2 weeks ago and were planning another one in 2 weeks.  It'd say once a month or more if there weren't any restrictions. 

I envy that. I'm in at least 3 per week. 

 

[the moops]

Can you agree that there is a spectrum of outcomes besides asymptomatic and in the hospital on a death bed?

Yes I can

OK cool. Can you also agree that there is a chance that our good buddy @the rover could have ended up in the hospital or worse? And those chances would have been greater if he was unvaccinated? And if we get a large enough group of vaccinated vs unvaccinated, that the outcomes of those two groups are drastically different?

This isn't about rover (sorry buddy), but about the masses. If we had more rovers we would all would be better off.

 

[supermike80]

OK cool. Can you also agree that there is a chance that our good buddy @the rover could have ended up in the hospital or worse? And those chances would have been greater if he was unvaccinated? And if we get a large enough group of vaccinated vs unvaccinated, that the outcomes of those two groups are drastically different?

This isn't about rover (sorry buddy), but about the masses. If we had more rovers we would all would be better off.

Yes.  I never denied that.

However.  The odds are against him having to be hospitalized. Period.  You can keep going on but it doesn't change facts. Assuming he would have ended up in the hospital is an incorrect assumption.  It is far more correct to assume he would not end up there.  Anything else is just fear mongering 

 

[dkp993]

Well we had one 2 weeks ago and were planning another one in 2 weeks.  It'd say once a month or more if there weren't any restrictions. 

I envy that. I'm in at least 3 per week. 

Basically every single day I work, so 5/6 days a week.  

 

[Amused to Death]

OK cool. Can you also agree that there is a chance that our good buddy @the rover could have ended up in the hospital or worse? And those chances would have been greater if he was unvaccinated? And if we get a large enough group of vaccinated vs unvaccinated, that the outcomes of those two groups are drastically different?

This isn't about rover (sorry buddy), but about the masses. If we had more rovers we would all would be better off.

I love that people are arguing semantics without knowing Rover's specific situation. I mean, my wife and I both have existing conditions that make us high risk. I have no doubt that a diagnosis of covid would send my wife to the ER at the very least.

 

[the moops]

Yes.  I never denied that.

However.  The odds are against him having to be hospitalized. Period.  You can keep going on but it doesn't change facts. Assuming he would have ended up in the hospital is an incorrect assumption.  It is far more correct to assume he would not end up there.  Anything else is just fear mongering 

I agree with this. You just need a little nuance in your words friend. 

Instead of

Why? It didn't help you.  At all

Try

You likely wouldn't have needed to go to the hospital, but good on you for taking precautions and getting vaccinated!

 

[The Z Machine]

I envy that. I'm in at least 3 per week. 

Oh we have quite a few 10+ attendee meetings, but since we're now "hybrid" and can go into the office pretty much whenever we want/need to, we do a lot of stuff on Zoom. Plus we have people calling in from 3-4 different continents and 6-7 different US offices for the really big meetings.  Those were always mostly online streams.  Physical presence isn't needed at many in person meetings.   Like I said, about once a month for 10+ attendees.  We've pivoted to this new workng model pretty well.  The company didn't renew a bunch of leases and is consolidating office space even as they hire more people. 

 

[Chaz McNulty]

Yes.  I never denied that.

However.  The odds are against him having to be hospitalized. Period.  You can keep going on but it doesn't change facts. Assuming he would have ended up in the hospital is an incorrect assumption.  It is far more correct to assume he would not end up there.  Anything else is just fear mongering 

But you could admit that if selfless people hadn't rolled up their sleeve and gotten vaccinated, that the Delta variant would have had are hospitals overrun, which would have caused not only a lot more Covid deaths, but also non-Covid deaths because people would not be able to get an ICU bed.

 

[supermike80]

But you could admit that if selfless people hadn't rolled up their sleeve and gotten vaccinated, that the Delta variant would have had are hospitals overrun, which would have caused not only a lot more Covid deaths, but also non-Covid deaths because people would not be able to get an ICU bed.

Yes.

 

[supermike80]

I agree with this. You just need a little nuance in your words friend. 

Instead of

Why? It didn't help you.  At all

Try

You likely wouldn't have needed to go to the hospital, but good on you for taking precautions and getting vaccinated!

You guys would have reacted the same. No doubt 

 

[the rover]

Yes.  I never denied that.

However.  The odds are against him having to be hospitalized. Period.  You can keep going on but it doesn't change facts. Assuming he would have ended up in the hospital is an incorrect assumption.  It is far more correct to assume he would not end up there.  Anything else is just fear mongering 

you have no clue that you're talking about, both about vaccines in general or about my health in particular.  the whole vaccine ignorance thing has grown tiresome 

 

[supermike80]

you have no clue that you're talking about, both about vaccines in general or about my health in particular.  the whole vaccine ignorance thing has grown tiresome 

I know far more than you do about the virus clearly by your incorrect assumptions.  

But you're right its impossible for me to know more about your health than you do.    

 

[the rover]

I know far more than you do about the virus clearly by your incorrect assumptions.  

But you're right its impossible for me to know more about your health than you do.    

you keep making uninformed and incorrect personal assumptions.  that hole of ignorance just keeps getting deeper as you double down on things you know absolutely nothing about.  

 

[the rover]

I love that people are arguing semantics without knowing Rover's specific situation. I mean, my wife and I both have existing conditions that make us high risk. I have no doubt that a diagnosis of covid would send my wife to the ER at the very least.

this.  the hubris of these amateur virologists is off the charts.   

get vaccinated.  encourage others to get vaccinated.  it's time for "alternate" positions to these two simple things to be looked on with the appropriate level of disdain that they deserve.  

 

[Amused to Death]

this.  the hubris of these amateur virologists is off the charts.   

get vaccinated.  encourage others to get vaccinated.  it's time for "alternate" positions to these two simple things to be looked on with the appropriate level of disdain that they deserve.  

Not everyone fits neatly into a statistical box.

 

[the rover]

Based on current studies (cited in the FFA covid thread--no time to find it right now) the recovery time for a "mild" case of Covid is 6 days for vaccinated, 18 for unvaccinated.   Death and hospitalization aren't the only measuring sticks.  I own my own business and have clients that depend on me.  If I had to miss 18 days of work I'd be screwed.  But go ahead and explain to me how the vaccine didn't help me.  Or better, don't.

 

[Shutout]

Uninformed conspiracy theorists that have the statistics on their side that say the MAJORITY, the HUGE Majority of Covid patients can recover at home and don't need hospitalization.  That conspiracy?

If you are determined to live your life in fear no one can tell you not to, but the statistics simply don't back it up.

Whereas you actually go the shots and got Covid anyway, THEN told anyone to get the shots.

Do you realize how silly that statement is?  Forget science, forget statistics, just regurgitate what you are being spoon fed.  It's literally insanity at this point.

Taken a step further: I know three people age 62-76, which is a higher risk group by age and, in one case, by other existing conditions, who all got covid, went to the hospital and were literally told "go home and treat it like a flu". They were, as you said, told to go revere at home. 

Just my two cents, but the real danger is not the degree that one side takes against the other. The real danger in this, in addition to the reality that some people (albeit a small percentage) don't recover from this, is the loss of the "living life" vs. the actual life.  People are losing their interaction to be in society, their economies, their education, their ability to live daily life without fear and ridicule and scorn.  Those things are more impactful than all the other things (with the exception of actual death which is, thankfully, extremely low). 

 

[Shutout]

HEALTH AND SCIENCE

CDC study shows unvaccinated people are 29 times more likely to be hospitalized with Covid

And 95% of lung cancer patients can irrefutably be linked to smoking....yet we aren't crucifying those folks for taking up 95% of the lung treatment beds.  

It's relative to the discussion at hand.