Can We Civilly Discuss Thoughts On Vaccination? A Poll. (1 Viewer)

[JIslander]

I wish this answer was good enough for the govt. 

If I may -- What has your physician told you?  Or have you even asked?

 

[Max Power]

If I may -- What has your physician told you?  Or have you even asked?

She said I'm protected, healthy and not in the risk group. 

 

[JIslander]

She said I'm protected, healthy and not in the risk group. 

How?

And what risk group?

BTW -- only share if you wan to --I understand --its your doc

 

[Rich Conway]

She said I'm protected, healthy and not in the risk group. 

Did you specifically ask "should I get vaccinated?"  If so, what was the answer?

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

Wasn't sure whether to post this in the civil discussion thread here, the Covid fearmongering thread, or the media criticism thread since it could fit right in either of the three.

From NPR:

"A man who suffered a cardiac emergency died after being turned away from 43 ICUs in 3 states — all at capacity from COVID."

LINK

 

[Max Power]

How?

And what risk group?

BTW -- only share if you wan to --I understand --its your doc

I was positive on the antibody test. I'm under 40, healthy height weight, all my other lab work came in looking good, I workout regularly, no bad habits outside of drinking more than I should. 

 

[Max Power]

Did you specifically ask "should I get vaccinated?"  If so, what was the answer?

I told her I was keeping an eye on Novavax and she said I'd be fine waiting for it. 

 

[Rich Conway]

I was positive on the antibody test. I'm under 40, healthy height weight, all my other lab work came in looking good, I workout regularly, no bad habits outside of drinking more than I should. 

FBG membership checks out.

 

[moleculo]

Wasn't sure whether to post this in the civil discussion thread here, the Covid fearmongering thread, or the media criticism thread since it could fit right in either of the three.

From NPR:

"A man who suffered a cardiac emergency died after being turned away from 43 ICUs in 3 states — all at capacity from COVID."

LINK

why is that fearmongering or criticism of the media?  Is there something untruthful, or you just don't like how the story was presented?

 

[The Commish]

I told her I was keeping an eye on Novavax and she said I'd be fine waiting for it. 

Still?  Any particular reason since our last conversation?

 

[Max Power]

Still?  Any particular reason since our last conversation?

This was a couple months ago. I'm not sure Novavax is even an option anymore since Pfizer was approved. 

 

[Max Power]

Wasn't sure whether to post this in the civil discussion thread here, the Covid fearmongering thread, or the media criticism thread since it could fit right in either of the three.

From NPR:

"A man who suffered a cardiac emergency died after being turned away from 43 ICUs in 3 states — all at capacity from COVID."

LINK

From the article his local ER wasnt equipped to handle his situation and they eventually got him airlifted to an ICU that was outfitted to handle it. 

So I guess the hospital had to place 44 phone calls? 

 

[JIslander]

I was positive on the antibody test. I'm under 40, healthy height weight, all my other lab work came in looking good, I workout regularly, no bad habits outside of drinking more than I should. 

Ok thanks

 

[Sabertooth]

In 2003, the Institute for Scientific Information stated that from 1983 to 2002, "Fauci was the 13th most-cited scientist among the 2.5 to 3.0 million authors in all disciplines throughout the world who published articles in scientific journals."

Pfft tonydead alone was published for 40-50 times.  

 

[tonydead]

Pfft tonydead alone was published for 40-50 times.  

You can discuss Fauci (and other thoughts on the vaccine) or make it personal.  Your choice.  

 

[Terminalxylem]

Wasn't sure whether to post this in the civil discussion thread here, the Covid fearmongering thread, or the media criticism thread since it could fit right in either of the three.

From NPR:

"A man who suffered a cardiac emergency died after being turned away from 43 ICUs in 3 states — all at capacity from COVID."

LINK

What do you think about that link? is it fearmongering, bad media or civil discussion related to covid-19?

 

[Terminalxylem]

I was positive on the antibody test. I'm under 40, healthy height weight, all my other lab work came in looking good, I workout regularly, no bad habits outside of drinking more than I should. 

Since you’re sharing, why were you antibody tested? Did your doctor order the test?

Novavax is still being studied, and hopefully will be released this fall. If it is, will you get vaccinated?

 

[Max Power]

What do you think about that link? is it fearmongering, bad media or civil discussion related to covid-19?

Missing context at best. The headline implied this sick man couldnt get a hospital bed in 43 locations because they were all full with critical covid patients. In reality there were likely multiple factors in play. 

ICUs should be able to move patients based on urgency of care. So was this guy's condition just not that serious? 

 

[Terminalxylem]

From the article his local ER wasnt equipped to handle his situation and they eventually got him airlifted to an ICU that was outfitted to handle it. 

So I guess the hospital had to place 44 phone calls? 

They had to call 44 healthcare facilities before he was accepted in transfer, to a hospital 200 miles away, in a different state. Undoubtedly, they placed far more than 44 calls, and his care was delayed, which my have expedited his death.

Do you think that story was fearmongering? FTR, hospital-to-hospital transfers are usually accomplished with a call to one or two other facilities

 

[Terminalxylem]

Missing context at best. The headline implied this sick man couldnt get a hospital bed in 43 locations because they were all full with critical covid patients. In reality there were likely multiple factors in play. 

ICUs should be able to move patients based on urgency of care. So was this guy's condition just not that serious? 

Yes, they should. In fact, if he was in the ER, hospitals are legally required to accept transfers for higher level of care, if they have space.

While we don’t have all the details, it’s safe to assume the implication you drew from the headline is correct. Alabama is one state suffering from a surge in covid hospitalizations, and he lived closer to one of the bigger (if not the biggest) academic hospitals in the region (UAB), yet he was transferred out of state. Unless you believe healthcare providers have nothing better to do with their time, or insurers prefer shuttling patients across state lines, why do you think they would bother to transfer this guy 200 miles away?

 

[Max Power]

Since you’re sharing, why were you antibody tested? Did your doctor order the test?

Novavax is still being studied, and hopefully will be released this fall. If it is, will you get vaccinated?

I had several cases of covid come through my house over the last year and a half. I never showed any symptoms. The one time I did get sick, it was a slight cough for a week, but I again tested negative for covid.

My job requires yearly deployment physicals from the military hospital. Part of that is lab/blood work and they asked if I wanted an antibody readout. Figured it was worth it.  My doc said I was positive for the antibodies. And then yelled at me for my liver numbers.

I'd be more comfortable with Novavax. Especially if they can combine it with the flu shot annually. I'm still in a wait and see mode for it all.

Very anti mandate. It makes me want to resist it more. 

 

[Max Power]

Yes, they should. In fact, if he was in the ER, hospitals are legally required to accept transfers for higher level of care, if they have space.

While we don’t have all the details, it’s safe to assume the implication you drew from the headline is correct. Alabama is one state suffering from a surge in covid hospitalizations, and he lived closer to one of the bigger (if not the biggest) academic hospitals in the region (UAB), yet he was transferred out of state. Unless you believe healthcare providers have nothing better to do with their time, or insurers prefer shuttling patients across state lines, why do you think they would bother to transfer this guy 200 miles away?

I'm just questioning the numbers here. How many beds are a typical ICU? Or an average one? And you indicated they all would have had to be at 100%? 

We also shouldnt assume every single ICU bed is a covid bed. There was also a recent story about how hospitals and reporters arent differentiating between patients in the hospital because of covid or with covid. So that's just another thing to consider when we say context is missing.

I obviously don't have any knowledge transferring patients. I'm just going off what makes sense. 

Doesn't Alabama have a dashboard that tracks open beds?

 

[tonydead]

The pay had to call 44 healthcare facilities before he was accepted in transfer, to a hospital 200 miles away, in a different state. Undoubtedly, they placed far more than 44 calls, and his care was delayed, which my have expedited his death.

Do you think that story was fearmongering? FTR, hospital-to-hospital transfers are usually accomplished with a call to one or two other facilities

No, the one quote they could use from the families obituary, because the family refused to talk to the media says, "CRMC emergency staff contacted 43 hospitals in 3 states in search of a Cardiac ICU bed and finally located one in Meridian, MS".  Currently there is no reason to believe they contacted any more or less than 43.

Then when they talked to someone from the hospital they didn't say it was because of ICU beds, they said that he was transferred from the hospital but said the reason was that he required "a higher level of specialized care not available".

Ruling: Fearmongering as the title "Man Dies After Being Turned Away from 43 ICUs at Capacity" isn't confirmed by any source other than an obituary statement.  And the single statement from the receiving hospital all but contradicts that.  

 

[tonydead]

I'm just questioning the numbers here. How many beds are a typical ICU? Or an average one? And you indicated they all would have had to be at 100%? 

We also shouldnt assume every single ICU bed is a covid bed. There was also a recent story about how hospitals and reporters arent differentiating between patients in the hospital because of covid or with covid. So that's just another thing to consider when we say context is missing.

I obviously don't have any knowledge transferring patients. I'm just going off what makes sense. 

Doesn't Alabama have a dashboard that tracks open beds?

Sort of.  There isn't a shortage of ventilators, there is a shortage of qualified staff.  So anytime they reach capacity it is almost always short of staff, not actual beds or ventilators.   

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

What do you think about that link? is it fearmongering, bad media or civil discussion related to covid-19?

I started with what I thought about it.

"Wasn't sure whether to post this in the civil discussion thread here, the Covid fearmongering thread, or the media criticism thread since it could fit right in either of the three."

 

[Terminalxylem]

I started with what I thought about it.

"Wasn't sure whether to post this in the civil discussion thread here, the Covid fearmongering thread, or the media criticism thread since it could fit right in either of the three."

OK. Why do you think it is fearmongering? Do you think people would be interested in knowing/benefit from information pertaining to hospital bed shortages?

 

[Shutout]

I wish this answer was good enough for the govt. 

Federal employees are NOT required to receive vaccinations for:

Chicken Pox

mumps

measles

Rubella 

Hep A

Hep C

the Flu

and about 3-4 others.  

It is interesting that the Govnt. is okay with skipping some things but go to the wall on this. 

 

[AAABatteries]

Federal employees are NOT required to receive vaccinations for:

Chicken Pox

mumps

measles

Rubella 

Hep A

Hep C

the Flu

and about 3-4 others.  

It is interesting that the Govnt. is okay with skipping some things but go to the wall on this. 

Not really - we aren’t experiencing tons of cases and a lot of deaths from any of those.  I imagine if we were you might see mandates for those too.

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

OK. Why do you think it is fearmongering? Do you think people would be interested in knowing/benefit from information pertaining to hospital bed shortages?

They made it sound like he died because all the ICUs in 3 states were filled to capacity from Covid. Do you think what they wrote is "information pertaining to hospital bed shortages"?

 

[Shutout]

Not really - we aren’t experiencing tons of cases and a lot of deaths from any of those.  I imagine if we were you might see mandates for those too.

Perspective.  Look at all the thing son the list historically....when they WERE big issues. None of these were put on a mandatory vaccine list.  My point is this is a very extremist move. That word is subject to how people see it but the reality is it's backfiring. The country is dividing more and more each day.  Around the country, you are seeing the exact UNDESIRED effect of these policies.  In New York (state) a hospital is announcing that they will close the birthing/delivery unit in the hospital because so many medical staff are resigning because they are being mandated to vaccinate.  This is occurring in a lot of places and is bad. Don't think of it as extreme as an entire unit closing, as bad as that is for pregnant women wanting to deliver a baby healthy. All it takes is the right/wrong key people to be lost to an employer.  Very smart, key, people with key knowledge in industries leaving because of a vaccine mandate.  

 

[Shutout]

Sort of.  There isn't a shortage of ventilators, there is a shortage of qualified staff.  So anytime they reach capacity it is almost always short of staff, not actual beds or ventilators.   

And why is there a shortage of qualified staff?  Could it be because of the reason like what i just posted about in New York where the mandate has driven off so many staff that they can't staff it? (I don;'t know this is the case...asking).

 

[Terminalxylem]

No, the one quote they could use from the families obituary, because the family refused to talk to the media says, "CRMC emergency staff contacted 43 hospitals in 3 states in search of a Cardiac ICU bed and finally located one in Meridian, MS".  Currently there is no reason to believe they contacted any more or less than 43.

Then when they talked to someone from the hospital they didn't say it was because of ICU beds, they said that he was transferred from the hospital but said the reason was that he required "a higher level of specialized care not available".

Ruling: Fearmongering as the title "Man Dies After Being Turned Away from 43 ICUs at Capacity" isn't confirmed by any source other than an obituary statement.  And the single statement from the receiving hospital all but contradicts that.  

I didn’t say they contacted more hospitals - I said they made more than 43 calls. Hospital transfers require information to be exchanged between multiple parties. I’d be shocked if they’re ever accomplished with a single call - physicians, nursing, transportation and bed control all must coordinate their efforts.

And higher level of care is ultimately the official reason for nearly every transfer. But in this case, that care required a cardiac ICU bed. So yes, an ICU bed shortage contributed to a delay in transfer, and likely his demise. And why do you suppose so many facilities had bed shortages simultaneously? 

And it’s interesting you immediately leap to fear-mongering, without considering a more likely possibility: the hospital representative chose words to downplay the bed shortage. I’ve seen our upper level admin do the same thing, as they don’t want to create the impression hospitals can’t take care of every sick patient.

But again, the number of calls, failure to transfer to a nearby tertiary care center and eventual acceptance out-of-state tells a very different story.

 

[tonydead]

And why is there a shortage of qualified staff?  Could it be because of the reason like what i just posted about in New York where the mandate has driven off so many staff that they can't staff it? (I don;'t know this is the case...asking).

That ain’t going to make things any better.  That’s for sure. 

 

[tonydead]

I didn’t say they contacted more hospitals - I said they made more than 43 calls. Hospital transfers require information to be exchanged between multiple parties. I’d be shocked if they’re ever accomplished with a single call - physicians, nursing, transportation and bed control all must coordinate their efforts.

And higher level of care is ultimately the official reason for nearly every transfer. But in this case, that care required a cardiac ICU bed. So yes, an ICU bed shortage contributed to a delay in transfer, and likely his demise. And why do you suppose so many facilities had bed shortages simultaneously? 

And it’s interesting you immediately leap to fear-mongering, without considering a more likely possibility: the hospital representative chose words to downplay the bed shortage. I’ve seen our upper level admin do the same thing, as they don’t want to create the impression hospitals can’t take care of every sick patient.

But again, the number of calls, failure to transfer to a nearby tertiary care center and eventual acceptance out-of-state tells a very different story.

 
Its pretty simple. Reporting without confirming facts is reporting to fit an agenda. It doesn’t really matter what the real facts are at that point. It’s still fear-mongering.   

Their source is an obituary and when contacted the family declined to talk to them. Let that sink in. Thats headline desperation. 

 

[Max Power]

Our Most Reliable Pandemic Number Is Losing Meaning

A new study suggests that almost half of those hospitalized with COVID-19 have mild or asymptomatic cases.

... the study suggests that roughly half of all the hospitalized patients showing up on COVID-data dashboards in 2021 may have been admitted for another reason entirely, or had only a mild presentation of disease.

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/09/covid-hospitalization-numbers-can-be-misleading/620062/

 

[TheMagus]

Firstly, I can't believe GordonGekko is still posting after his "there's no such thing as a good woman" rant I saw within the last week. Disgusting. 

Secondly, my cousin, in her mid-40s died today of COVID. She was among the extremely small percentage of the population that could not medically be vaccinated as an organ transplant recipient. 

So to the OP's question around whether we can civilly discuss this, nope. Can't do that right now. 

 

[Shutout]

Our Most Reliable Pandemic Number Is Losing Meaning

A new study suggests that almost half of those hospitalized with COVID-19 have mild or asymptomatic cases.

This should be a very enlightening read of information if people truly want to understand some of the situation behind the reports/headlines, etc. 

When you consider the political agendas and the financial incentives to be gained by health facilities, I have doubt we will ever truly learn of the level of significance of reported hospitalizations and/or the degree of seriousness the admissions represent. 

 

[the rover]

Firstly, I can't believe GordonGekko is still posting after his "there's no such thing as a good woman" rant I saw within the last week. Disgusting. 

Secondly, my cousin, in her mid-40s died today of COVID. She was among the extremely small percentage of the population that could not medically be vaccinated as an organ transplant recipient. 

So to the OP's question around whether we can civilly discuss this, nope. Can't do that right now. 

I'm sorry for your loss.

 

[Terminalxylem]

I'm just questioning the numbers here. How many beds are a typical ICU? Or an average one? And you indicated they all would have had to be at 100%? 

We also shouldnt assume every single ICU bed is a covid bed. There was also a recent story about how hospitals and reporters arent differentiating between patients in the hospital because of covid or with covid. So that's just another thing to consider when we say context is missing.

I obviously don't have any knowledge transferring patients. I'm just going off what makes sense. 

Doesn't Alabama have a dashboard that tracks open beds?

You guys are missing the forest for the trees.

It is highly unusual (unprecedented, outside of natural disasters/war) that people with acute cardiac conditions (eg. heart attacks) can’t find a healthcare right away. It doesn’t matter if COVID patients filled every. single. ICU. bed. They occupied enough beds, in addition to the usual stuff that that earns a trip to the unit, that there was insufficient room/staffing/resources to transfer a critically ill patient. I’m sure the hospital personnel did their best to expedite the transfer, using all available information, yet needed to call 43 healthcare facilities in 3 different states, until their patient was accepted.

That should never happen in a developed country, and certainly not in the United States. But this is where we are, and some of you are suggesting it’s fear-mongering?!?

 

[Terminalxylem]

They made it sound like he died because all the ICUs in 3 states were filled to capacity from Covid. Do you think what they wrote is "information pertaining to hospital bed shortages"?

Absolutely.

 

[jobarules]

Our Most Reliable Pandemic Number Is Losing Meaning

A new study suggests that almost half of those hospitalized with COVID-19 have mild or asymptomatic cases.

OOF

 

[Terminalxylem]

And why is there a shortage of qualified staff?  Could it be because of the reason like what i just posted about in New York where the mandate has driven off so many staff that they can't staff it? (I don;'t know this is the case...asking).

Not likely, considering the timing of the mandates. Much more likely the healthcare workers are burnt out from taking care of so many COVID patients.

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

Absolutely.

Oh. Which hospitals are filled?

 

[Terminalxylem]

Oh. Which hospitals are filled?

Well, my 550 bed hospital has been operating at or over-capacity for weeks. Both ICU and regular bed occupancy was >100% on Friday, the last day theses tallies were available.

But that’s not the point of the article. Do you think it’s reasonable to check 40+ hospitals in a three state area to find an ICU bed?

 

[Shutout]

Not likely, considering the timing of the mandates. Much more likely the healthcare workers are burnt out from taking care of so many COVID patients.

To be fair, all medical professionals' job isn't just about covid...but I get the idea you are stating. 

But the big take away for me, personally.  My entire family is in the medical profession so, right or wrong, I think I understand as much as the next guy what it's been like and I can tell you that although its easy to say burned out having to take care of covid patients, I truly believe that is far from the truth. 

In reality, most people in the medical profession who TRULY are in their profession for the reason of helping people thrive on being there in the time of need. My SIL delivered a baby for 38 hours and she says to this day it was her best day (+) of work ever. 

I just don't buy that people who devote their lives to saving people and making them well, by and large, drop out during a challenging time. I think they rise to these occasions. 

 

[NorvilleBarnes]

But that’s not the point of the article. 

Not if your fear mongering. 

 

[Terminalxylem]

To be fair, all medical professionals' job isn't just about covid...but I get the idea you are stating. 

But the big take away for me, personally.  My entire family is in the medical profession so, right or wrong, I think I understand as much as the next guy what it's been like and I can tell you that although its easy to say burned out having to take care of covid patients, I truly believe that is far from the truth. 

In reality, most people in the medical profession who TRULY are in their profession for the reason of helping people thrive on being there in the time of need. My SIL delivered a baby for 38 hours and she says to this day it was her best day (+) of work ever. 

I just don't buy that people who devote their lives to saving people and making them well, by and large, drop out during a challenging time. I think they rise to these occasions. 

Well, I know many burnt out healthcare workers who treat covid patients. Not to the point of quitting their jobs, at least not yet. I also know a lot of people who are fed up with excuses from people refusing vaccination.

I don’t know anyone who is “thriving” because of COVID, especially when it pertains to caring for unvaccinated patients. 

To be fair, I also know a single person who is acting like she may quit because of the vaccine mandate.

But the numbers are heavily skewed to those who’d prefer everyone get vaccinated  as quickly as possible.

 

[Terminalxylem]

Not if your fear mongering. 

Ok, well the next time you’re  hospitalized, make sure to let them know you’re willing to wait, and possibly visit Mississippi.

 

[Shutout]

Well, I know many burnt out healthcare workers who treat covid patients. Not to the point of quitting their jobs, at least not yet. I also know a lot of people who are fed up with excuses from people refusing vaccination.

I don’t know anyone who is “thriving” because of COVID, especially when it pertains to caring for unvaccinated patients. 

To be fair, I also know a single person who is acting like she may quit because of the vaccine mandate.

But the numbers are heavily skewed to those who’d prefer everyone get vaccinated  as quickly as possible.

I used the word thriving in describing people rising to meet challenges when people are sick. I DO know people that do that. I believe it is part of their drive and dedication and not quitting. 

I say this a lot in this forum because it comes up and its not really tied to this discussion but I'll still say it: you use the word refuse vaccination.  Its not a refusal, its a choice. I mention it as a suggestion that if you want to have meaningful discussions with people about this, its a better approach to approach it AS a discussion and not a "I'm right and you're wrong" thing. 

Back on topic: I truly wonder how many people who are burned out on this issue (medical professionals or not) are burned out to a large degree, not because of where they find themselves today but as a result of taking the vaccine when it came out and being led to believe that that was the ticket...That was it.  And then for that not to be the case. And I bring that up hoping to get thoughtful replies to it because, honestly, it seems like it is very heavily lopsided in that while we are all clearly tired and hoping to move past this virus, the people who aren't choosing to get vaccinated seem to take it in stride much better than the people who have been vaccinated.  They seem much less stressed about it on a day-to-day basis. 

 

[Yenrub]

Federal employees are NOT required to receive vaccinations for:

Chicken Pox

mumps

measles

Rubella 

Hep A

Hep C

the Flu

and about 3-4 others.  

It is interesting that the Govnt. is okay with skipping some things but go to the wall on this. 

Probably no big need to require these on the Federal employees since most of them are (and have been for a long time now) required to attend public school