"Cheap Move" or Nah? (1 Viewer)

[pollardsvision]

I'm the type that I want to score as many points as I can each week. I don't want to play a lineup not to lose.

I am too. But I also don't play in -3 per INT leagues.

I'd think differently in that scenario (after spending the off-season begging to get that changed).

 

[pollardsvision]

If you're going to have insanely punitive negative points, you have to expect that people will factor in those negative points.

What's funny is that -3 for Ints is the standard in all of my leagues now. I only have 1 redraft that still has -2, and that's an ooooooold league with big yardage bonuses.

With 6 point PaTd, -3 Int feels right to me.

I'm way out of my element here, for sure. I only play in one league anymore. It has no negative points for anything. We agreed to that when the league started in 2004.
Anyway, that's why -3 seems so shocking to me.

No matter the league, you have to think people will take the scoring into account. Otherwise, what are we doing?

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

No matter the league, you have to think people will take the scoring into account. Otherwise, what are we doing?

Exactly.

In one league this week, my opponent started 4 TE. One at tight end, and three at his flex and Superflex positions, respectively.

He had other running backs and wide receivers that he could’ve started there, but in a TE-premium format, clearly he believed his best chance to win would be to go with 4 tight ends.

I don’t fault him for that at all. It didn’t work out for him this week as I beat him by a lot, but I understand what he was doing, and within our rules it was perfectly legal for him to do that.

In summary, he played the lineup that he thought ensured him the best chance of a win. I don’t see how that’s any different than what I did in swapping out Zach Wilson for Tyler Conklin.

 

[-OZ-]

You play to win the game.
Not much different than Brian Westbrook taking a knee at the 1 instead of scoring a TD.
If you want to prevent this, go to an all play format.

 

[-jb-]

Two awesome things about this thread:

1. We all get to cheer for Conk to put up 9 rec 99yards 0 TDs tonight
2. Moving forward, every time HSG asks a question, we get to respond with WWTWD?

 

[Stinkin Ref]

You play to win the game.
Not much different than Brian Westbrook taking a knee at the 1 instead of scoring a TD.
If you want to prevent this, go to an all play format.

IMO "all play" is really the best FF set up....we incorporated all play into our league several years back and wish we would have done it sooner.....we actually do a hybrid....12 team league....3 divisions....3 division winners make the playoffs based on HTH....and then the next 3 best all play records....

 

[Deamon]

@Hot Sauce Guy probably hits on 13 with the dealer showing a 4........ jerk

What seat is he in?

It doesn't matter where you're sitting you NEVER hit on this unless you're a jerk.

 

[Ardbeg4ever]

@Hot Sauce Guy probably hits on 13 with the dealer showing a 4........ jerk

What seat is he in?

It doesn't matter where you're sitting you NEVER hit on this unless you're a jerk.

Please tell me that you don't believe that when others hit, it changes your odds of winning?

 

[Deamon]

@Hot Sauce Guy probably hits on 13 with the dealer showing a 4........ jerk

What seat is he in?

It doesn't matter where you're sitting you NEVER hit on this unless you're a jerk.

Please tell me that you don't believe that when others hit, it changes your odds of winning?

Huh? It doesn't matter if others hit, you never ever hit a 13 vs a 4. Please tell me you know this.

 

[Ardbeg4ever]

@Hot Sauce Guy probably hits on 13 with the dealer showing a 4........ jerk

What seat is he in?

It doesn't matter where you're sitting you NEVER hit on this unless you're a jerk.

Please tell me that you don't believe that when others hit, it changes your odds of winning?

Huh? It doesn't matter if others hit, you never ever hit a 13 vs a 4. Please tell me you know this.

I'm not talking about what you should do with your hand, only that it has NO EFFECT on other's odds at the tables. Some people get upset if you sit at a table and "take their card" which is just as likely to help them as it is to hurt them.

 

[belljr]

@Hot Sauce Guy probably hits on 13 with the dealer showing a 4........ jerk

What seat is he in?

It doesn't matter where you're sitting you NEVER hit on this unless you're a jerk.

Please tell me that you don't believe that when others hit, it changes your odds of winning?

First ..... You never hit on 13 with a 4 showing even if the hot sauce guy sitting shortstop does

Second....if you are in third base and do hit 13 vs4 taking a card that would have bust the dealer I will throw the ashtray at you...... We all want the table to win, it's like betting don't pass on craps. Don't be that guy

 

[Deamon]

@Hot Sauce Guy probably hits on 13 with the dealer showing a 4........ jerk

What seat is he in?

It doesn't matter where you're sitting you NEVER hit on this unless you're a jerk.

Please tell me that you don't believe that when others hit, it changes your odds of winning?

Huh? It doesn't matter if others hit, you never ever hit a 13 vs a 4. Please tell me you know this.

I'm not talking about what you should do with your hand, only that it has NO EFFECT on other's odds at the tables. Some people get upset if you sit at a table and "take their card" which is just as likely to help them as it is to hurt them.

This is clearly what you should do with your hand. We are TOTALLY off topic here, but someone said "he's probably the guy who hits on 13 vs a 4". You never ever do this as a player. Ever.

 

[Ardbeg4ever]

https://www.casinocitytimes.com/ala...rs-at-a-blackjack-table-affect-your-game-5616

 

[ghostguy123]

In one of my leagues, a 12-team PPR SF with no K or D/ST, with -3 Int, after last night's game I'm up 97.8 to 92.7 (thank you, Tee Higgins)

It was a bad BYE week for us both. I'm currently the 3-seed, and top scorer in that league, and had Zach Wilson yet to play (Fields is out, ARich on IR, yeah, don't judge)

Anyway, after the game, I decided that the prudent thing to do with a narrow 5.1 point lead in a league with -3 for Interceptions would be to swap out ZW for Conkin in my SF spot. That way I protect my lead, and eliminate the risk of a bad beat with ZW coming out and craping the bed with a multi-pick game.

A friend in the league texted me that he saw I did that swap & called it a "cheap move". I asked if he thought there was anything in the rules against it. He said no, but he thought it was "kind of unsportsmanlike". I told him to pound sand.

Personally, I see it as smart management. I need 0 points to win, but I can't leave a roster spot open. Why wouldn't I be able to put whomever I want in my SF spot? Just happened to have another Jet to do it with. We don't have an in-season prize for season points total, so the extra points are irrelevant. But the negative points could be highly relevant .

Your thoughts:

Honest opinion.

Cheap move.

Not to say it's not the smart move. I just wouldn't do it unless it was a life or death type situation.

Huh? Why do you think you have to play a QB in a flex position just because it’s a SF league?

For the same reason Ted Williams didn't quit early and take the win without playing as I wrote above.

Sorry, but ZERO similarities there

 

[belljr]

https://www.casinocitytimes.com/ala...rs-at-a-blackjack-table-affect-your-game-5616

Still not the point...... For that one hand you are the last to act and do something you should never do causing the dealer to win instead everyone at the table would have won it's bad "etiquette"... you do the right thing and the table gets bent thems the breaks.

What's next splitting Kings ....

Everyone that plays BJ knows long term that really doesn't matter but we don't want a bad juju playing bad plays.

But again its a bad play no matter where you are sitting

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

So far Conklin hasn’t lost a fumble and ZW has.

I feel validated.

 

[jobarules]

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME

 

[TomServo]

In an ideal world, my opponent would start Zach Wilson each and every week.
I have no idea how anyone who was trying to win at real or fantasy football would have him in their lineup.

 

[The Gator]

In an ideal world, my opponent would start Zach Wilson each and every week.

 

[Ardbeg4ever]

In one of my leagues, a 12-team PPR SF with no K or D/ST, with -3 Int, after last night's game I'm up 97.8 to 92.7 (thank you, Tee Higgins)

It was a bad BYE week for us both. I'm currently the 3-seed, and top scorer in that league, and had Zach Wilson yet to play (Fields is out, ARich on IR, yeah, don't judge)

Anyway, after the game, I decided that the prudent thing to do with a narrow 5.1 point lead in a league with -3 for Interceptions would be to swap out ZW for Conkin in my SF spot. That way I protect my lead, and eliminate the risk of a bad beat with ZW coming out and craping the bed with a multi-pick game.

A friend in the league texted me that he saw I did that swap & called it a "cheap move". I asked if he thought there was anything in the rules against it. He said no, but he thought it was "kind of unsportsmanlike". I told him to pound sand.

Personally, I see it as smart management. I need 0 points to win, but I can't leave a roster spot open. Why wouldn't I be able to put whomever I want in my SF spot? Just happened to have another Jet to do it with. We don't have an in-season prize for season points total, so the extra points are irrelevant. But the negative points could be highly relevant .

Your thoughts:

Honest opinion.

Cheap move.

Not to say it's not the smart move. I just wouldn't do it unless it was a life or death type situation.

Huh? Why do you think you have to play a QB in a flex position just because it’s a SF league?

For the same reason Ted Williams didn't quit early and take the win without playing as I wrote above.

Sorry, but ZERO similarities there

I would say it would be analogous to Ted Williams taking a walk instead of swinging at bad pitches in his last game.

 

[da_budman]

You play to win the game.
Not much different than Brian Westbrook taking a knee at the 1 instead of scoring a TD.
If you want to prevent this, go to an all play format.

IMO "all play" is really the best FF set up....we incorporated all play into our league several years back and wish we would have done it sooner.....we actually do a hybrid....12 team league....3 divisions....3 division winners make the playoffs based on HTH....and then the next 3 best all play records....

I dont particularly like all play but if its set up like play HTH each week plus play the league average....so 2 wins per week I would be ok with this.

 

[Atomic Punk]

I’m as “old school” as you can get (and I’d estimate over 80% of this board is as well) and I cannot for the life of me make heads or tails as to why your substitution would not be a fair play. I know the TW story well, as do others, but cannot connect the dots between the two.

 

[rockaction]

I have no idea how anyone who was trying to win at real or fantasy football would have him in their lineup.

I drafted him as a rookie with the 2.11 of a rookie draft in dynasty. And there were people thinking he fell (not Superflex). OOOOOOOOOOOF.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I’m as “old school” as you can get (and I’d estimate over 80% of this board is as well) and I cannot for the life of me make heads or tails as to why your substitution would not be a fair play. I know the TW story well, as do others, but cannot connect the dots between the two.

I can’t see even a vague resemblance. Square peg, round hole.

It’s a quality anecdote about always doing your best even at risk of missing an achievement. Good sentiment. Love the story.

But my OP has nothing to do with that. It’s not even a “win at all costs” scenario where I’m doing something underhanded or seedy to win. I’m making a legal lineup change.

Baffling that anyone would take issue with it, but hey, each to their own.

So far it’s:
Conklin 1.4
Wilson 1.2

 

[belljr]

Score update?

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Conklin 4.0
ZW 3.4

 

[belljr]

Conklin 4.0
ZW 3.4

Jerkstore called .......

 

[Atomic Punk]

I need Conkin to chill out. I’m up 1.5 with nobody left and up against Conklin. Not looking good …

 

[ChicoCat]

I get the Ted Williams story more if you were pulling Pat Mahomes out for Jalen Raegor.....but it's Zack Wilson. Conklin might be able to outscore him anyway.

 

[rockaction]

I get the Ted Williams story. I also get acting ethically even when rules don't require it.

But I don't get this one at all. If you want set lineups, there should be a rule about that. I adjust on the fly all the time, and I don't see why this is any different. This isn't cheap or underhanded, it's just prudent. Wilson might not have seen my Superflex lineup regardless. He's that bad.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

I need Conkin to chill out. I’m up 1.5 with nobody left and up against Conklin. Not looking good …

My condolences.

 

[-jb-]

 

[jobarules]

How dare you start the guy who scored more points.

 

[-jb-]

Literally could not have been scripted better for this thread. Conk gets the final reception at the goal line and gets denied a TD. Amazing.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Final:

ZW - 7.3
TC - 12.7

Looks like I made the right choice.

 

[Hot Sauce Guy]

Literally could not have been scripted better for this thread. Conk gets the final reception at the goal line and gets denied a TD. Amazing.

Well, neither dude scored negative points, but I did play the dude who scored more.

Of course my goal was minimizing the risk of a bad beat, but sometimes things just work out for the best I guess.

 

[Steeler]

You play to win the game.

Is it possible for anyone to read this and NOT hear Herm Edwards voice?

 

[JohnnyU]

You play to win the game.

Is it possible for anyone to read this and NOT hear Herm Edwards voice?

I liked Jim Mora's "PLAYOFFS?".

 

[apalmer]

In one of my leagues, a 12-team PPR SF with no K or D/ST, with -3 Int, after last night's game I'm up 97.8 to 92.7 (thank you, Tee Higgins)

It was a bad BYE week for us both. I'm currently the 3-seed, and top scorer in that league, and had Zach Wilson yet to play (Fields is out, ARich on IR, yeah, don't judge)

Anyway, after the game, I decided that the prudent thing to do with a narrow 5.1 point lead in a league with -3 for Interceptions would be to swap out ZW for Conkin in my SF spot. That way I protect my lead, and eliminate the risk of a bad beat with ZW coming out and craping the bed with a multi-pick game.

A friend in the league texted me that he saw I did that swap & called it a "cheap move". I asked if he thought there was anything in the rules against it. He said no, but he thought it was "kind of unsportsmanlike". I told him to pound sand.

Personally, I see it as smart management. I need 0 points to win, but I can't leave a roster spot open. Why wouldn't I be able to put whomever I want in my SF spot? Just happened to have another Jet to do it with. We don't have an in-season prize for season points total, so the extra points are irrelevant. But the negative points could be highly relevant .

Your thoughts:

Honest opinion.

Cheap move.

Not to say it's not the smart move. I just wouldn't do it unless it was a life or death type situation.

Huh? Why do you think you have to play a QB in a flex position just because it’s a SF league?

For the same reason Ted Williams didn't quit early and take the win without playing as I wrote above.

There's a whale of a difference between trusting yourself (especially if you're Ted Williams) and trusting Zach Wilson.

You could always extend your argument to : Ted Williams wouldn't have paid for advice on setting his lineup.

 

[TartanLion]

This is nothing but smart management. I simply can’t see the other side of the opinion in any way shape or form if I’m honest

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

At the risk of having missed something, you played the guy that had zero chance of getting negative points, and that guy outscored the other guy anyway?

Playing the guy who had zero chance of getting negative points was certainly the correct call. The fact that he outscored the other guy anyway is example 1,000,000 of how unpredictable the magic football can be. Nicely done.

 

[zamboni]

Each league is different, but considering it's clearly head-to-head, I don't think it's a problem what HSG did.

In my total points league, such a move would be frowned upon because total points determine draft position the following year.

 

[pinkstapler]

I added a 4th QB to my roster in a single QB league when I realized the guy I was facing the following week was the Kirk Cousins owner after he went down with the achilles. FTW. In my experience, the least fun leagues, and coincidentally the leagues that fall apart fastest, are the ones where not every owner is trying to win every week.

If I was in HSG league, and his opponent this week was in 4th place and I was in 5th, and he decided to risk giving that guy a win by starting ZW because "that's just the right thing to do cuz 'morals'" I'd be sick. Any time someone in a league is not putting winning first, it negatively impacts the rest of the league.

 

[Gally]

In my total points league, such a move would be frowned upon because total points determine draft position the following year.

But, but, but.......Conklin scored more points. It is amazing how often leagues that complain about lineup decisions end up being on the wrong side of the complaint. Not that the complaint would have been out of bounds as most would think that Wilson was in line to score better than Conklin. It just always seems crazy that many times the bigger the outcry for foul the move ended up working out against the outcry.

 

[pinkstapler]

Each league is different, but considering it's clearly head-to-head, I don't think it's a problem what HSG did.

In my total points league, such a move would be frowned upon because total points determine draft position the following year.

One option I do in a couple of my leagues, expand your total points to include bench players. Obviously it completely does away with the problem you just pointed out, but even more so, it's a more accurate judge of a teams overall strength. Someone could have a very strong team and just make bad line up decisions each week. They shouldn't be awarded a higher draft pick because of that because they aren't losing due to having a weak team.

 

[rockaction]

Someone could have a very strong team and just make bad line up decisions each week

This happened to me last year, and I of course insist it isn't because my team was strong and I was stupid, but rather that my team was mediocre and you never knew which guy was going off which week. That and a bunch of backup RBs scored a ton of points in a league with no FLEX. The solution would have been to dump them midseason and score less bench points, but I was a playoff team.

It's not really necessarily an optimal design.

 

[pinkstapler]

Someone could have a very strong team and just make bad line up decisions each week

This happened to me last year, and I of course insist it isn't because my team was strong and I was stupid, but rather that my team was mediocre and you never knew which guy was going off which week. That and a bunch of backup RBs scored a ton of points in a league with no FLEX. The solution would have been to dump them midseason and score less bench points, but I was a playoff team.

It's not really necessarily an optimal design.

Nothing is perfect, but I've yet to see/hear one that is better than it.

 

[-OZ-]

Each league is different, but considering it's clearly head-to-head, I don't think it's a problem what HSG did.

In my total points league, such a move would be frowned upon because total points determine draft position the following year.

One option I do in a couple of my leagues, expand your total points to include bench players. Obviously it completely does away with the problem you just pointed out, but even more so, it's a more accurate judge of a teams overall strength. Someone could have a very strong team and just make bad line up decisions each week. They shouldn't be awarded a higher draft pick because of that because they aren't losing due to having a weak team.

Potential points is a decent way to mitigate these concerns.

 

[zamboni]

In my total points league, such a move would be frowned upon because total points determine draft position the following year.

But, but, but.......Conklin scored more points. It is amazing how often leagues that complain about lineup decisions end up being on the wrong side of the complaint. Not that the complaint would have been out of bounds as most would think that Wilson was in line to score better than Conklin. It just always seems crazy that many times the bigger the outcry for foul the move ended up working out against the outcry.

Process over results in this case. As bad as Zach is, in SF you'd almost always want to go scrub QB over scrub RB/WR/TE.

 

[zamboni]

Each league is different, but considering it's clearly head-to-head, I don't think it's a problem what HSG did.

In my total points league, such a move would be frowned upon because total points determine draft position the following year.

One option I do in a couple of my leagues, expand your total points to include bench players. Obviously it completely does away with the problem you just pointed out, but even more so, it's a more accurate judge of a teams overall strength. Someone could have a very strong team and just make bad line up decisions each week. They shouldn't be awarded a higher draft pick because of that because they aren't losing due to having a weak team.

I like this idea, although the crappiest tanks in tank mode are also likely going to have the weakest benches. It wouldn't be a disincentive to mitigate tanking, but that's for another thread.