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Classic Album Discussion Thread: The Kinks-Lola Versus Powerman and the Moneygoround, Pt. 1 (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter timschochet
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John Bender
Footballguy
This is just Tim's thread to post albums he likes now?
Ilov80s
Footballguy
John Bender
Footballguy
Bonzai
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Spoken like a man who knows he has no hope but that which exists at the farthest edge of eternity.
You are right, they had 2 classic albums.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Here is the thing about Sublime. They are working in the worst medium of modern music ever. It's that rock/reggae/rap blur that swallowed so many talented artists in the late 90s. Sublime was somehow able to make good of it. It's a beautiful mix of nineties nihilism, #### it party rock, social consciousness and Bradley Nowell's desperate beauty.
Zegras11
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
I missed that. For real?
How about Muswell Hillbillies or Kontroversy?
I thought he just nixed a compilation album on those grounds. I must have missed it.
####e.
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
The bolded is correct, but not for the reason you follow up with.
That said, I was long out of my musical element during this time.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
The monoculture collapsed and the internet hadn't taken hold yet. The large, LARGE part of the population had no clue who Sublime was. That's nothing against them or the folks who loved their music, just that they had no cultural presence. Other than Whitney Houston & Celine Dion & maybe The Spice Girls - I guess Nirvana, if you want to try really hard to validate it , and though they got retconned in - what was a "sound" of the '90s? Radio had strangled itself into genres so stiff they'd make a teenaged boy's favorite towel jealous.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
You are saying what was "the/a sound of 90s?" If that is what you are saying, I disagree vigorously.
massraider
Footballguy
Yeah.I get it. I was in college the same time.
Not a classic album, not an all-time great band, and they've been overrated ever since whats-his-face died. Someone at Rolling Stone decided he was some poet who died before his time, and every mainstream bro who liked smoking weed listening to Sublime like the idea that they were deep. I liked Sublime, still like the music. I liked 311 too.
The emperor has no clothes.
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Uruk-Hai
Footballguy
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massraider
Footballguy
No idea. I'm agreeing with you completely, by the way. I loved Sublime. Nothing classic about them. Same with Stone Temple Pilots.
Not too much 90's stuff I listened too has aged very well.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
We aren't agreeing at all because I am saying they are classic. STP is also classic.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
Sublime was better for a time than all time. A good one-note band that caught a gnarly wave, like Vanilla Fudge, Modern Lovers or Spandau Ballet before them. I can feel the sun, see a pool (empty or not) and wanna slack off, spark up & get some on a lounge chair when i hear these guys. Cool.
massraider
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
I think I get what all of you are saying.
If I'm not mistaken, I think Uruk is saying there is no sound of the '90s because everything was so fragmented after the decline of top-down or monoculture and that distribution hadn't developed enough (like the internet allowed for) for that fragmentation to even allow people to come to a consensus. In other words, think about a monoculture that had Kilroy and one that has memes. Now imagine there being no referent for either of those things in terms of music.
That people were unaware of Sublime -- and a vast majority were -- implicates Sublime and their music in the modern era's futility at associating or forcing any sort of common cultural connection people had with each other through their music. That this is a bad thing.
Does that sound right, Uruk?
If I'm not mistaken, I think Uruk is saying there is no sound of the '90s because everything was so fragmented after the decline of top-down or monoculture and that distribution hadn't developed enough (like the internet allowed for) for that fragmentation to even allow people to come to a consensus. In other words, think about a monoculture that had Kilroy and one that has memes. Now imagine there being no referent for either of those things in terms of music.
That people were unaware of Sublime -- and a vast majority were -- implicates Sublime and their music in the modern era's futility at associating or forcing any sort of common cultural connection people had with each other through their music. That this is a bad thing.
Does that sound right, Uruk?
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rockaction
Footballguy
ilov80s is saying, forget it, this is the nineties -- as a descriptive judgment. That Sublime is emblematic of this awful synthesis that was indeed a cultural moment, and makes it into something good.
Uruk would likely counter that since it is not well-known enough, normatively it fails at being a cultural statement or touchstone. That truly transcendent or classic stuff is known throughout culture, either unifying or dividing, but doing so universally and on a widespread scale rather than within a fragmented demographic outlook.
And massraider and ilov both like Sublime and STP, but are using classic differently.
Uruk would likely counter that since it is not well-known enough, normatively it fails at being a cultural statement or touchstone. That truly transcendent or classic stuff is known throughout culture, either unifying or dividing, but doing so universally and on a widespread scale rather than within a fragmented demographic outlook.
And massraider and ilov both like Sublime and STP, but are using classic differently.
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rockaction
Footballguy
My opinion is that everyone has something to add to this conversation. Uruk's point about consumer preference and fragmentation in matters of music or the soul was problematic during that era is taken. ilov80s point about it being an actual cultural moment is also taken -- IMO, it was a cultural moment, however fragmented and non-universal. And massraider is making a taste judgment that sounds about right, too. The stuff hasn't aged well as a musical statement.
rockaction
Footballguy
And hopefully, after two nice cups of coffee, I haven't totally confused everybody.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I am about to argue with you about a point I maybe made that you then translated which probably means I am insane. But here we are. There was a particular strain of late 90s rock which had a lot of reggae and rap influence. It mostly was awful (Limp Bizkit for example). However, Sublime was actually very good. Extra credit is deserved for being one of the few bands to actually do this style well. It was a cultural moment. Their self titled album spent over 2 years on the Billboard charts and they had 3 songs from it that were rock radio staples and still are today. STP and Sublime had classic albums in the sense that they made rock albums that were extra great for their time and are still great today.
rockaction
Footballguy
Uh, you got me there. I am drawing a blank on the band.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I don't see how anyone can say the 90s were a fragmented period in music. It wad the Carson Daily TRL/MTV era.
rockaction
Footballguy
Yes, that was our monocultural moment. Stuffed away on cable, not received by everybody, on MTV at a certain hour, designed for a particular generation to watch by both format and time slot.
I think it was way different than the early sixties and The Ed Sullivan Show, when one television appearance brought Nielsen ratings that would cause today's advertisers to positively writhe on the floor in disbelief.
rockaction
Footballguy
In other words, entire families gathered around the one television set to watch about three national networks and that was it. Or there was radio before that.
Compared to one person sitting in front of one of five television sets, with channels approaching 200 of them, where distribution was imperfect and reception (in the pure sense, not the FCC sense) of ideas and thoughts and music was fragmented and spotty.
Compared to one person sitting in front of one of five television sets, with channels approaching 200 of them, where distribution was imperfect and reception (in the pure sense, not the FCC sense) of ideas and thoughts and music was fragmented and spotty.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Sure, it was downstream from the 60s but everyone in the country knew who Britney Spears and Ricky Martin were overnight.
rockaction
Footballguy
I personally think both your and Uruk's points are valid, so I'm just trying to make it so that both points are faithfully argued and defended. I also can see both sides to each argument. I missed the monoculture of TRL for the most part (was too old for it) and also too young for Ed Sullivan to really get a grasp on the seismic changes.
I got in a similar argument in the hockey thread a few years back when somebody said that everybody knew who Rancid was. "Uh uh," I replied. "Go to a grocery store. Ask someone. See how many people know the answer." That's like his (Uruk's) argument about Sublime, and I think he's closer to being right about that than you think. On the other hand, rock/reggae/rap was a cultural moment to a specific demographic, IMO, and your point is correct, too.
I do this often. Gets me in trouble.
It's really my way of saying both your points have a ton of validity and soundness, but you're talking a little past each other, which is bound to happen.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
i might not group STP with Nirvana or Pearl Jam (tho i like them more) but they dont deserve to be grouped with Sublime
MTV videos were just as important as Sullivan, often moreso. It's just that they were competing with a lot more electronic culture.
MTV videos were just as important as Sullivan, often moreso. It's just that they were competing with a lot more electronic culture.
rockaction
Footballguy
Yep. And I think that's the point. Those cultural touchstones had so much competition they got drowned in the ether. Uruk's point about radio is also interesting. That the genres the stations adopted defined them and they divided into, instead more of either a monoculture or a free flowing college radio type of station, an extra-rigid application of what a particular station played and what they wouldn't. Whether it was always that way isn't for me to say (I'm not old enough), but genre-driven demography was certainly omnipresent in the nineties.
The location on the dial meant everything, and meant you missed a lot by only having yourself tuned into one. And that was okay, because once you found your genre, you got it all from that one source. There was no challenging, no need for synthesis, and lastly, no common unifier. At least, that's what I'm getting from his argument.
massraider
Footballguy
I would never lump them together. I always thought STP were underrated, especially by hardcore grunge peeps. They weren't a Seattle band, a LOT of fans thought of them as poseurs. Meantime, they also have a much deeper/better catalog than pretty much every other grunge band.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Obviously I can't speak to how things were in the 50s or 70s, but I think the monoculture was very strong in the 90s and didn't really begin to break up until the 2000s. I could easily list dozens and dozens of bands/artists and songs that were cross generationally popular/famous. Mambo No. 5, Who Let the Dogs Out, Britney and Christina, MC Hammer, Nirvana, the Latin invasion, 2Pac vs Biggie, that Goo Goo Dolls song form the Nick Cage movie, Hootie and so on.
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rockaction
Footballguy
Sure, I agree with you on that. I just can't speak to how it was in the early seventies and previously.
And thank God for Mambo No. 5. What would we have done without it? Next up on classic album week -- Lou Bega!
Ilov80s
Footballguy
What was the last song like Mambo No 5? A song where an artist mostly unknown to America released a song that 80% of the country ended up hearing and being totally aware of. Gangnam Stye?
timschochet
Footballguy
I seem to be under some criticism in here lately. That’s fine; it’s my normal state of affairs in this forum, and I was getting uncomfortable with the plaudits. That being said, a few words of explanation might be in order:
1. I have yet to define to my own satisfaction what the rules are regarding a “classic album.” But I am not simply selecting albums I enjoy. For me to choose an album for this discussion, somebody with some pretense of authority in music, usually from a popular music magazine, at least once upon a time called the album “classic.” Or they’re on some published list somewhere of “greatest albums ever.” If people disagree that it’s a great album, such as Sublime and it leads to an interesting discussion, so much the better.
2. It is true that more often than not within that classification I’m going to be selecting albums I like, that I listen to, that I’m familiar with. But this is not always the case. And I’m not going to select favorite albums of mine that aren’t considered classic: for example, I adore the Indigo Girls, the Boomtown Rats, the Dickies, the Vapors. There won’t be any selections from these bands.
3. I screwed up on the compilation albums and especially on the Kinks. My bad, don’t know what I was thinking. I was being an idiot. We will return to the Kinks later. There will be no more greatest hits or compilations except in those rare instances, such as Steve Miller, when the greatest Hits album is itself of some significance.
4. I’ve literally got a list of hundreds of albums to eventually choose and there’s no running out anytime soon. However if you guys have preferences feel free to PM me.
1. I have yet to define to my own satisfaction what the rules are regarding a “classic album.” But I am not simply selecting albums I enjoy. For me to choose an album for this discussion, somebody with some pretense of authority in music, usually from a popular music magazine, at least once upon a time called the album “classic.” Or they’re on some published list somewhere of “greatest albums ever.” If people disagree that it’s a great album, such as Sublime and it leads to an interesting discussion, so much the better.
2. It is true that more often than not within that classification I’m going to be selecting albums I like, that I listen to, that I’m familiar with. But this is not always the case. And I’m not going to select favorite albums of mine that aren’t considered classic: for example, I adore the Indigo Girls, the Boomtown Rats, the Dickies, the Vapors. There won’t be any selections from these bands.
3. I screwed up on the compilation albums and especially on the Kinks. My bad, don’t know what I was thinking. I was being an idiot. We will return to the Kinks later. There will be no more greatest hits or compilations except in those rare instances, such as Steve Miller, when the greatest Hits album is itself of some significance.
4. I’ve literally got a list of hundreds of albums to eventually choose and there’s no running out anytime soon. However if you guys have preferences feel free to PM me.
timschochet
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
Echo the "you're doing fine" but, since your passion's not quite as high as in the beginning and your tastes are not as hard (nor prog) as most of the posters, perhaps it's time to start alternating with guest presenters. I'd be much more interested in our 40 posters' "what's missing" albums than your "and here's #72 with a bullet". Let them take a little of the heat, timmy
Also - the car radio. There will never be a disseminator of musical culture to match the car radio. Spending a year and a half on the road as a kid, i kept my touch with an extremely volatile time in our political, social & cultural history by the songs on the radio. It spoke the troof, man.
Great scene in the movie Once - after spending every penny they were ever going to have for a weekend of studio time, the principals have halfway won over the hired-hand engineer/producer. When they were done, he says "Now's the test" or sumn and motions em all outside. They pile into his Merc and he pops the CD into the deck and these recording neophytes hear the result of what's gone on in the songwriters' heads and the musicians hearts & fingers their whole lives and it comes out in the format by which they've processed all their inspirations. They hear the Troof.
I'll never forget the first time i heard a song i was involved in the recording of on the radio. It was Orleans "Let There Be Music". Now, i had heard it every take & track & beat of it 417 times as it was being put together, but the car radio made it a whole nuther. Turn it up!
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
Sublime is a zillion times better than about half of the stuff brought up in this thread so far. Sublime has nothing to do with "classic" rock though. This has really just become Tim's thread to talk about artists and albums he likes (or thinks are important in some way). Should probably change the thread title accordingly.
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massraider
Footballguy
Anyone puts up a list of classic albums with Sublime on it, someone will most likely say something.
Climb down off the cross and recognize this isn't Exile on Main St.
This is about the album, and the pretty strong stances people have on the band.
It actually isn't about you at all, but appreciate you declaring your courage to soldier on.
Climb down off the cross and recognize this isn't Exile on Main St.
This is about the album, and the pretty strong stances people have on the band.
It actually isn't about you at all, but appreciate you declaring your courage to soldier on.
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