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Cleveland Browns (3 Viewers)

Bobcat10 said:
He got blasted for playing QB musical chairs with every QB on the roster.

Sorry, but that's just as much Hue's fault as the front office.  And there is little doubt in my mind about that.
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Really?  I can't see where the front office did ANYTHING Hue wanted.

 
daveR said:
Really?  I can't see where the front office did ANYTHING Hue wanted.
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That's lunacy to put that in caps, as if you have Hue's laundry list in front of you. 

RG-trois must ring a bell.  Kessler too.  And then there's the Myles' stories.  Just to name a few.

I know where this conversation goes and there's only one other person I'd rather not have it with.  

 
The Man With No Name said:
Really don't want Cousins. Goal is to win Super Bowls. He is not a Championship quarterback imo.

If they want Barkley, there is a chance he won't be there at 4.
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If Nick Foles can take a team to the SB, Cousins can take the Browns to the SB.  That is not a dig on Foles since he is playing really well.  I truly believe Cousins is just as good.  Cousins had very little to work with this season. 

 
Bobcat10 said:
That's lunacy to put that in caps, as if you have Hue's laundry list in front of you. 

RG-trois must ring a bell.  Kessler too.  And then there's the Myles' stories.  Just to name a few.

I know where this conversation goes and there's only one other person I'd rather not have it with.  
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Okay.  I meant this past year, so I wasn't counting RG3, and Kessler was an afterthought, someone you could only cross your fingers about, at best.  What's the "Myles stories" you mention?

 
DocHolliday said:
If Nick Foles can take a team to the SB, Cousins can take the Browns to the SB.  That is not a dig on Foles since he is playing really well.  I truly believe Cousins is just as good.  Cousins had very little to work with this season. 
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I don't know much about Foles as I haven't seen him play much. But watching Cousins, I don't see a game changer or a leader. He's a good game manager, but needs to surround himself with other more talented players.  When the game is on the line, I don't see him putting the team on his shoulders to win the game. I don't want a long term QB who doesn't have that quality. This team is too young not to have a guy long term to lead them. It's ok as a short term bridge QB, but I wouldn't want to pay a lot of money to a QB who can't he that kind of leader.

 
Andy Dufresne said:
Only if they'd tagged him this next season. In 2016, Cousins made nearly $20 million playing on the tag. In 2017, that figure went up to $24m.
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http://1043thefan.com/165613/broncos-kirk-cousins/

... Kirk Cousins, will likely be available. He’s set to be a free agent in March, and the Broncos are a team many are speculating could land him.

He’s played each of the last two years on the franchise tag, but Cousins has not been able to get the long-term deal that he desires. Washington could have franchise tagged Cousins for a third consecutive year (and still can), but it would have come with a one-year, fully guaranteed price of $34.5 million.

...In a quarterback-desperate league, Cousins is looking at a contract that could pay him an average of $30 million per year.

 
daveR said:
Okay.  I meant this past year, so I wasn't counting RG3, and Kessler was an afterthought, someone you could only cross your fingers about, at best.  What's the "Myles stories" you mention?
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Hue didn’t sound like he was crossing his fingers when he was explaining the 3rd round pick to me.

Don’t the Myles stories post draft revolve around Hue and the coaches having to convince the FO to take him over Trubisky (I think it was him)? I admit I haven’t read up a lot on this but it was out there. True or not who knows. The QB examples seem clear cut to me.

 
Bobcat10 said:
Hue didn’t sound like he was crossing his fingers when he was explaining the 3rd round pick to me.

Don’t the Myles stories post draft revolve around Hue and the coaches having to convince the FO to take him over Trubisky (I think it was him)? I admit I haven’t read up a lot on this but it was out there. True or not who knows. The QB examples seem clear cut to me.
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Hmmm.  If they had to convince the FO to take Garrett, then I gotta wonder why.  Everybody had him as the best prospect in years.  Be that as it may, he WAS sold on RG3.  Kessler was a different story inasmuch as he was a 3rd round shot-in-the-dark.  I'm not sure anybody saw him as more than that, even though Hue played him up for the media.

 
Peak said:
I don't know much about Foles as I haven't seen him play much. But watching Cousins, I don't see a game changer or a leader. He's a good game manager, but needs to surround himself with other more talented players.  When the game is on the line, I don't see him putting the team on his shoulders to win the game. I don't want a long term QB who doesn't have that quality. This team is too young not to have a guy long term to lead them. It's ok as a short term bridge QB, but I wouldn't want to pay a lot of money to a QB who can't he that kind of leader.
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Who would you suggest?  Better question: name them all, whether or not they'll ever be available.  Are there 10 of them?

 
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Hey Kirk, here's a 7 year deal worth 200 million.

Kirk: "Ok, sign me up".

The way I see it, this team will probably never be anywhere near the salary cap since nobody wants to come play here.  Free money.  Let's go win some games, make the playoffs, and actually have something else to talk about other than people getting fired and what to do with our top 3 picks.  

In doing this, it would be mandatory to trade down from pick #1 and collect more future picks.  I am talking 2019 and 2020 1sts.  We have enough picks this year.  Let's go for high picks down the line and keep this thing going.  With Kirk we have a big cap hit at QB, but with continued high draft picks we wont have to splurge too many other places, even though will would still have room to splurge in at least a FEW places.  

Deal down to 5 or 6, get 2019 and 2020 1st.  Sign special K for too much money, sign a WR and some secondary, draft WELL PLEASE, win games, have fun.  

Maybe then in a few years all our incredible incompetence as a franchise will be in the rearview and players/coaches will stop avoiding us like the plague.  

 
If the contract is structured right, they should be able to mitigate any future encumbrances.  Front-load it.  

And, I love the idea of trading back to #6.  

Of course, everything hinges on Cousins & Denver.  If he signs anywhere else, the Broncos could be looking to trade up!

BTW, I was surprised that people in the NYG thread were talking about many things NOT involving a QB.

 
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beer 30 said:
Even Jeopardy trolling the Browns now

https://twitter.com/Jeopardy/status/959267654438547456

And for the record, I don't want to trade down. I want us to pick studs at 1 and 4. Tired of ####### trading down, get some immediate impact players.
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I think I agree with this even if Cousins is brought in.  I am most impressed with the non QB players in the top 10 in this draft.  Drafting great players now rather than later means the team is better sooner.  I think a window is opening up for the Browns to take over the AFC N since 2 teams are getting old at QB or have Dalton. 

 
ghostguy123 said:
Hey Kirk, here's a 7 year deal worth 200 million.

Kirk: "Ok, sign me up".

The way I see it, this team will probably never be anywhere near the salary cap since nobody wants to come play here.  Free money.  Let's go win some games, make the playoffs, and actually have something else to talk about other than people getting fired and what to do with our top 3 picks.  

In doing this, it would be mandatory to trade down from pick #1 and collect more future picks.  I am talking 2019 and 2020 1sts.  We have enough picks this year.  Let's go for high picks down the line and keep this thing going.  With Kirk we have a big cap hit at QB, but with continued high draft picks we wont have to splurge too many other places, even though will would still have room to splurge in at least a FEW places.  

Deal down to 5 or 6, get 2019 and 2020 1st.  Sign special K for too much money, sign a WR and some secondary, draft WELL PLEASE, win games, have fun.  

Maybe then in a few years all our incredible incompetence as a franchise will be in the rearview and players/coaches will stop avoiding us like the plague.  
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I am not sold on Kirk Cousins as the long term solution at QB at the cost it would take in terms of salary cap and opportunity cost since we would be committed to him as the long term starter so it would make no sense to draft a rookie QB at the top of the draft and have them sit for years and years. 

He threw 13 INTs and had 13 fumbles last year for a total of 26 turnovers.

I don't think he is a top-tier QB but we would be forced to pay him top QB money.

==============================================

Doug Farrar‏Verified account @BR_DougFarrar FollowFollow @BR_DougFarrar

Cousins seems pretty fearless about throwing deep, but he's often late with the ball. He actually throws his receivers closed a lot, he doesn't anticipate receiver location as you'd like, and there are times when he just makes these bizarre pick throws that make no sense.  10:03 AM - 1 Feb 2018

==============================================

From 2016, his game was broken down.

http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/teams-nfl/nfc-east/washington/2016/09/27/cousins-mistakes/

...  2016 hasn’t been as kind to Cousins. Cousins struggled ... missing open receivers and throwing costly interceptions.

...Cousins’ main issue is staring down receivers, which results in interceptions and deflected passes. 

... His inability to look off defenders is causing turnovers during critical plays in the game. 

============================================

Alex Smith lead the league in three categories, Passer rating, Adjusted yards per pass, and lowest interception per attempt.  Kirk Cousins lead the NFL in one category:

Sacked Yds Lost

  • 1.Kirk Cousins • WAS 342
  • 9.DeShone Kizer • CLE 226
=======================

Cousins ties up salary cap and means we don't take any QBs at the top of the draft for the next three to four years unless he gets injured or implodes. 

Cousins has risen to his level and will continue to play near that level meaning we would sacrifice any shot at drafting a QB at the top of the draft at a point when their is a draft with many QBs and we just so happen to hold two top-four picks. 

The salary cap cost is one thing but the opportunity cost is another.

 
daveR said:
Who would you suggest?  Better question: name them all, whether or not they'll ever be available.  Are there 10 of them?
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I would suggest a rookie QB to groom, of which I think Darnold and Mayfield have those qualities - Mayfield has them in spades.  Based on player interviews from his team and the Sr Bowl, Mayfield just has that magnetism about him that brings players confidence and you can see their level of play raised with that confidence.  If he was 2 inches taller, he would be the runaway #1 pick with no one looking second-guessing it.  But the perception of "height matters" with 6ft tall not being enough is a topic for another time.

Of FA, there really aren't any out there.  We are speaking of bridge QBs only at this point. Even including a Cousins or a Smith, I see this FA crop as Game Managers.  Bridgewater is the closest to maybe fitting into the mold of Mayfield/Darnold, but I'm really curious on how he recovers from injury.  Is he the same guy we saw in college, or has he lost some confidence?

Of all QBs that I can think of, whether they'll ever be available, I submit these 10 QBs:

Current QBs: Brady, Rogers, Brees, Wilson, Palmer

Past QBs: Warner, Elway, Favre, Peyton, Otto Graham if you want to go back that far

My point is that there are leadership traits that a QB should bring to the table, particularly with this type of young team.  Not all QBs have them, and that's fine.  This CLE team desperately needs a QB that can not only manage the game, but ignite the team - someone who loves the game enough to study their opponents and are able to be the decision maker the team needs.  That field general that the team will flock to, stand with, and fight for during the game.  

I have never seen, or heard, this said about Cousins.  JMHO, and I can be wrong.  But I don't see it. He can manage the game, but I don't see him being that field general.  He's not putting this team, or any team, on his shoulders to win a game.  

 
Peak said:
I would suggest a rookie QB to groom, of which I think Darnold and Mayfield have those qualities - Mayfield has them in spades.  Based on player interviews from his team and the Sr Bowl, Mayfield just has that magnetism about him that brings players confidence and you can see their level of play raised with that confidence.  If he was 2 inches taller, he would be the runaway #1 pick with no one looking second-guessing it.  But the perception of "height matters" with 6ft tall not being enough is a topic for another time.

Of FA, there really aren't any out there.  We are speaking of bridge QBs only at this point. Even including a Cousins or a Smith, I see this FA crop as Game Managers.  Bridgewater is the closest to maybe fitting into the mold of Mayfield/Darnold, but I'm really curious on how he recovers from injury.  Is he the same guy we saw in college, or has he lost some confidence?

Of all QBs that I can think of, whether they'll ever be available, I submit these 10 QBs:

Current QBs: Brady, Rogers, Brees, Wilson, Palmer

Past QBs: Warner, Elway, Favre, Peyton, Otto Graham if you want to go back that far

My point is that there are leadership traits that a QB should bring to the table, particularly with this type of young team.  Not all QBs have them, and that's fine.  This CLE team desperately needs a QB that can not only manage the game, but ignite the team - someone who loves the game enough to study their opponents and are able to be the decision maker the team needs.  That field general that the team will flock to, stand with, and fight for during the game.  

I have never seen, or heard, this said about Cousins.  JMHO, and I can be wrong.  But I don't see it. He can manage the game, but I don't see him being that field general.  He's not putting this team, or any team, on his shoulders to win a game.  
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Thanks for the response!

I kinda wonder if success "creates" the trait, or at least brings it into the light.  I know that pundits gushed over Brady after that last game (and last year's superbowl) ignoring how clean a pocket he had in the second half.  Both games, that was the difference.

Also, it seems that MOST college QBs drafted into the NFL have that leadership quality (like Manziel).  The ones who progress are those who can get through their rookie season without getting beat up.

BTW, not disagreeing on Cousins, just don't know.     

 
Dr. Octopus said:
He lost 5 fumbles last season not 13.
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You are right Doc.  PFR only showed fumbles without fumbles lost = https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/C/CousKi00.htm = or I would have shown that but he did have an additional -52 yards on his fumbles so add that to his league leading lost sack yardage of -342 yards.  That is a lot of negative yardage.

18 total turnovers isn't horrible but it is not great which is how I view Cousins.  Not horrible but not great.

His upside is about as high as anyone can reasonably expect.

 Any team taking him would lose cap space and the opportunity to take a QB at the top of the draft. but would get a 'not horrible but not great QB' IMHO.

 
daveR said:
Thanks for the response!

I kinda wonder if success "creates" the trait, or at least brings it into the light.  I know that pundits gushed over Brady after that last game (and last year's superbowl) ignoring how clean a pocket he had in the second half.  Both games, that was the difference.

Also, it seems that MOST college QBs drafted into the NFL have that leadership quality (like Manziel).  The ones who progress are those who can get through their rookie season without getting beat up.

BTW, not disagreeing on Cousins, just don't know.     
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I think success does create that trait in some QBs - which may lead to a false positive.  Consider Keenum, for example.  He's been a career backup until recently.  Shurmur designed plays geared toward his strengths which in turn led them to winning games, thus growing his confidence.  If you look at only this year, he looks like he could be that kind of QB.  But it's built by design, and I think he regresses back to the old Keenum once Shurmur leaves.  This is a situation where coaching can overcome bad players and make them better than they are....yet another trait CLE is missing in their HC right now.  But again, another topic for another day.

College QBs don't know any better, especially if they come from winning programs.  I like that about them...they are ready to conquer the world, until they realize that they don't know what they're doing.  NFL rushes a lot of these guys onto the field, which can hurt their growth.  Manziel had the talent but none of the brains or heart.  This is where the Manziel to Mayfield comparisons irritate me.  Mayfield has the talent, heart, and intellect to play the game at the next level.  Manziel had talent and that's it, most will say he abused that talent and didn't use it properly (they would be right IMO).  Both have had off-field issues and made immature decisions.  I expect that to happen with college kids.  Lord knows I made immature decisions back then too.  But their desire/heart and intellect is what separates them, yet many dismiss that and want to put the label on Mayfield immediately.

 
How many browns were coached up to be better players than their talent level would suggest by hue and co over the last 2 years?  If its zero, fire him. 

 
Riversco said:
How many browns were coached up to be better players than their talent level would suggest by hue and co over the last 2 years?  If its zero, fire him. 
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Considering the team went 1-31 during those two years the answer better be close to "zero" or their roster is in trouble.

 
Riversco said:
How many browns were coached up to be better players than their talent level would suggest by hue and co over the last 2 years?  If its zero, fire him. 
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It's less than zero. I'd argue there was plenty of regression over the last 2 years on this team.

 
If what we know about MKC is true, then the following may make those who desire Cousins weep...

Per MKC - Kick Cousins' price tag likely too high for Cleveland

The mouthpiece for HC Hue Jackson offers the following information:

...given the fact they [Cleveland] are poised to draft a quarterback at No. 1, they probably won't want to pay the possible $30 million a year Cousins could command on the open market. Therefore, they're more likely to seriously pursue the next tier of quarterbacks, including Cincinnati's AJ McCarron, whoever shakes out from the Vikings, and other potential free agents.
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From the mouth of Cousins:

Cousins has made it clear he wants to go to an immediate contender.

"At the end of the day, I want to win," he told SiriusXM NFL Radio on Friday. "I was talking with Coach (Charlie) Weis earlier and he made it clear, 'Hey, go where you can win.' That's exactly what the plan is.''

Weis, the former offensive coordinator of the Jets, Patriots and Chiefs, told cleveland.com that his advice to the Cousins was "don't go to a team just because they offer you the most money.''
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Looking more and more like we're picking a QB at #1 and going with a short-term bridge such as McCarron for the interim.  Browns fans plan accordingly.

 
Peak said:
If what we know about MKC is true, then the following may make those who desire Cousins weep...

Per MKC - Kick Cousins' price tag likely too high for Cleveland

The mouthpiece for HC Hue Jackson offers the following information:

From the mouth of Cousins:

Looking more and more like we're picking a QB at #1 and going with a short-term bridge such as McCarron for the interim.  Browns fans plan accordingly.
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I'm warming to this idea.  It looks like the only hurdle is making sure you draft the right guy.  There doesn't seem to be much sense in signing someone for 5-6 years & drafting someone high. Their contracts would run concurrently and end at the same time.  Expensive insurance policy!

 
Weis noted that his former Chiefs boss, Browns offensive coordinator Todd Haley, is "a very good playcaller'' which should be attractive to offensive players. He also believes Cousins is in the class of a Drew Brees and worth the big contract.

:D

Therein lies the problem...

 
DallasDMac said:
Weis noted that his former Chiefs boss, Browns offensive coordinator Todd Haley, is "a very good playcaller'' which should be attractive to offensive players. He also believes Cousins is in the class of a Drew Brees and worth the big contract.

:D

Therein lies the problem...
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Haley doesn't make the call.

Kirk Cousins is an URFA and is looking to win.  Cecil Lammey doesn't think that the Broncos stand much chance to sign him because the Broncos have struggled. 

http://1043thefan.com/165613/broncos-kirk-cousins/

-- Lammey: Broncos need more than just money to land Kirk Cousins --

Kirk Cousins has more say > Dorsey who has far more say > Todd Haley.

In the end Kirk Cousins decides where he wants to play and he's stated he wants more than money, he wants to win.

“Is money a part of it? Sure. Is it the only thing? ​

No,” Cousins said. “It is about winning, and that’s what I want more than anything, so I’m going to be willing to make sacrifices or do what has to be done to make sure I’m in the best possible position to win, and that’s what the focus is going to be.”​
 
Bracie Smathers said:
Haley doesn't make the call.

Kirk Cousins is an URFA and is looking to win.  Cecil Lammey doesn't think that the Broncos stand much chance to sign him because the Broncos have struggled. 

http://1043thefan.com/165613/broncos-kirk-cousins/

-- Lammey: Broncos need more than just money to land Kirk Cousins --

Kirk Cousins has more say > Dorsey who has far more say > Todd Haley.

In the end Kirk Cousins decides where he wants to play and he's stated he wants more than money, he wants to win.

“Is money a part of it? Sure. Is it the only thing? ​

No,” Cousins said. “It is about winning, and that’s what I want more than anything, so I’m going to be willing to make sacrifices or do what has to be done to make sure I’m in the best possible position to win, and that’s what the focus is going to be.”​
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It's starting to sound like he'll take less money to be on the right team.  That being said, heir apparent to Brady might be ideal.  Wonder if the Pats could find a way... 

 
This FO is ridiculously talented. At least this team will get some players from the draft. I'm hoping they can change some minds of FAs as well.

 
I wonder if we end up trading for Teddy B.  

Also, just for ####s & giggles, what would you trade for Brady?

 
daveR said:
It's starting to sound like he'll take less money to be on the right team.  That being said, heir apparent to Brady might be ideal.  Wonder if the Pats could find a way... 
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Browns have a better chance at signing him and that’s not saying much. 

 
Soulfly3 said:
I was really hoping for Smith + Mayfield. Really.

Oof.
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Isn’t McCloughan a Baker guy?  Edit: oops that’s what Fancypants link alludes to.

Gonna have to get over Smith. Maybe was ideal, but we’ll be fine.

 
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Peak said:
This FO is ridiculously talented. At least this team will get some players from the draft. I'm hoping they can change some minds of FAs as well.
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I sincerely doubt Haslam planned it this way, but it worked out well.  The previous guys did an excellent job of acquiring picks & cap space -- they were really good at that -- and now the right people are there to make use of it.

 
daveR said:
I know you hate Hue, but of the 22 starters, who (that wasn't injured) regressed over the last two years?
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My coach is 1-31, what's to like? I don't hate him, just don't think he's doing this team any favors with some of the stupid stuff he does.

To answer your question I'll look at position/category rather than individuals:

WR: Probably stayed about the same, maybe minimal regression because they were terrible the year before although they did have Terrelle Pryor who was a bright spot in a dismal category

OL: Again, probably stayed about the same but that's not saying much either. In 2016 they gave up 66 sacks, in 2017 they gave up 50. Yes an improvement but it sure didn't feel that way watching the games

QB: Whatever

RB: Last year, 107 yds/gm, rank 16. This year, 107.1 yds/gm, rank 18

Overall Offense: This year, total offense, ranked 32. Last year 31

Team Def: Last year 30th, this year 31st

About all I got time to go into but there is nothing above that impresses me that we are heading in the right direction. Oh, and we won 1 game last year, this year....0

 
beer 30 said:
My coach is 1-31, what's to like? I don't hate him, just don't think he's doing this team any favors with some of the stupid stuff he does.

To answer your question I'll look at position/category rather than individuals:

WR: Probably stayed about the same, maybe minimal regression because they were terrible the year before although they did have Terrelle Pryor who was a bright spot in a dismal category

OL: Again, probably stayed about the same but that's not saying much either. In 2016 they gave up 66 sacks, in 2017 they gave up 50. Yes an improvement but it sure didn't feel that way watching the games

QB: Whatever

RB: Last year, 107 yds/gm, rank 16. This year, 107.1 yds/gm, rank 18

Overall Offense: This year, total offense, ranked 32. Last year 31

Team Def: Last year 30th, this year 31st

About all I got time to go into but there is nothing above that impresses me that we are heading in the right direction. Oh, and we won 1 game last year, this year....0
Click to expand...
So, the thread the troll started was about players being "coached up".  You replied that they had regressed.  I asked you which ones had regressed, giving you room to support your assertion, and you say, "1-31".  Could it be that your hatred is driving this and not discernible data, at least when it comes to the specific topic of individual players?

 
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