daveR
Footballguy
The implication was that "urgency" is vital. Urgency means action, no waiting. I haven't seen any yet.
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Cleveland Browns (7 Viewers)
- Thread starter wadegarrett
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Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
come on
MAC_32
Footballguy
daveR
Footballguy
Yeah. Okay. I was attempting to show that, IMO, "urgency" is undetectable and of dubious value.Dave, it looks like you're on a fihsing trip.
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
I think the desire for urgency stems from the fact that quick fixes and constant change have always worked out so well for the Browns.
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
well that's nice but your opinion is ridiculous'daveR said:Yeah. Okay. I was attempting to show that, IMO, "urgency" is undetectable and of dubious value.'MAC_32 said:'Captain Quinoa said:
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
urgency has nothing to do with quickness and change
PlasmaDogPlasma
Footballguy
I guess that's how I interpreted "requiring or compelling speedy action or attention" applying to an NFL front office.Maybe you can explain what "urgency" does mean in this case and how the average fan would notice it?
MAC_32
Footballguy
Not a fan of the quick fix. Also not a fan of wasting a year on Mangini, 2 years on Robiskie, 3 years on RT, 2 years on the Cribbs at WR experiment, now 2 years on Sheldon Brown, 2 years to address a woeful DE situation post-Wimbley trade, not making a backup plan for Hillis, repeating the same mistake with Watson now, and the awful misuse of Colt McCoy. Hated the pick then they completely botched every decision regarding him from that point forward.I'm sure I missed some. As I've said from the beginning the anti-free agency strategy only works if you nail the draft and these guys did not. They drafted...okay. Got some nice players, maybe a superstar in Haden and Richardson, in the top 50 and a few role players later. Problem, when you start with a bad product you have to outperform others to close the gap. Clearly, we have not. These guys didn't get a fire lit under them until Randy told them, sell. All of a sudden - hey, 2nd round supplemental pick on Gordon, do it! Weeden, you're starting week 1, and you have to win, despite lack of developed options around you, and you're not going to play much in preseason because we need you to start week 1, despite having nothing around you. Yeah, that was going to work. Now Pat's trying to lobby for Richardson to play hurt to save his job.Show this sense of urgency a little earlier and maybe we're in a better spot in June, instead everyone is in panic mode in October thinking about their own self interests instead of the team's.
daveR
Footballguy
I admire the strength of your desire. Our opinions clearly clash, but we're both pulling for 'em. Ultimately, we have no power regarding this thing we both find compelling, so let's hope those that do are able to bring us a winner!
daveR
Footballguy
I feel fairly safe in saying that another coaching change will bring in new systems and new personnel to fit those systems, thereby flushing a couple more years down the crapper. At least that's what I've seen.
daveR
Footballguy
Dude, there is no magic wand / pixie dust that can transform chicken #### into chicken salad. Look at the drafts we've had since the team returned. Until Heckert took over, you could only hope to add one player per draft. Seriously. Take the time to check out the drafts. You can re-build through the draft, but not at one player per year.The won/loss record cannot change until the talent is upgraded and the rookies get some experience.
ETA: Without on-field talent at 90%+ spots positionally, you're gonna lose in the NFL. At this point, I think they're close enough to that goal to be competitive and that's what I've seen.
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Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
I'm interested to see which coach can make fewer halftime adjustments. It's a race to the bottom.
wadegarrett
FFA Legend™
#winning 
daveR
Footballguy
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Congrats on another win by the Browns! I told you guys good things would happen if they would just run the ball and stop asking Weeden to throw 40+ times a game. 2 for 2 now in that scenario! I look forward to watching this later. Looks like Richardson has gotten over his rib injury now for the most part. 
MAC_32
Footballguy
A lot of good to take away from today. Shurmur did his best to blow it but the pro at blowing games was on the other sideline. Not going to crucify weeden for not hitting a couple of big plays in these conditions but he will have to learn to if he is going to play here
daveR
Footballguy
Nope. Stadium was packed yesterday!ETA: That was sarcasm. When I drove by during the first half, it wasn't half full.I'm thinking about giving up my Chargers allegiance - any room on the Browns train?
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beer 302
Footballguy
Um, HELL FREAKIN' YEA!!!!!!WOOOOOO!!!!!
Biabreakable
Footballguy
Just watching the game now. Twice the coaches do not get the play in on time and the Browns have to waste time outs when they are only ahead by one point. Both plays coming out of the time outs are dangerous and it seems the Chargers defense made better use of the time than the Browns did.
I also heard the announcer say that the Browns lead the league in dropped passes? I like Gordon a lot and Weeden has grit. I have seen him make some very good throws and he is making much better decisions with the ball, throwing it away or taking the sack if he has to but protecting the ball.
Fun game with the weather. Lots of running and good defense on both sides. Weeden actually digs the Browns out of their hole on 3rd and 6 with a very good toss outside to Richardson. Richardson really moves the pile. If they do not tackle him behind the line he tends to get another 2 yards at the end of the run, sometimes more. He fights for yards so much the linemen are getting used to helping him surge forward.
Then they switch to Hardesty who fumbles sapping the momentum out of the drive. Childress wisely yanks Hardesty but puts the other back up RB in
, when they are 2nd and long and the threat of Richardson would be a good idea. Great punt and defense closes out the game. The offense did use up about 5 minutes of the last 7 to protect their lead. If the Browns didn't get that 1st down there the Chargers would have had much better field position and with only being down 1 point a field goal is all they needed to win this game. That was a clutch drive put together by Weeden before it stalled. I like Weeden. Scrappy QB.
The defense with the help of the weather played a very good game. Got pressure on Rivers when they needed to and played pretty good coverage except a few plays to Ronnie Brown. Nice game!
I also heard the announcer say that the Browns lead the league in dropped passes? I like Gordon a lot and Weeden has grit. I have seen him make some very good throws and he is making much better decisions with the ball, throwing it away or taking the sack if he has to but protecting the ball.
Fun game with the weather. Lots of running and good defense on both sides. Weeden actually digs the Browns out of their hole on 3rd and 6 with a very good toss outside to Richardson. Richardson really moves the pile. If they do not tackle him behind the line he tends to get another 2 yards at the end of the run, sometimes more. He fights for yards so much the linemen are getting used to helping him surge forward.
Then they switch to Hardesty who fumbles sapping the momentum out of the drive. Childress wisely yanks Hardesty but puts the other back up RB in
, when they are 2nd and long and the threat of Richardson would be a good idea. Great punt and defense closes out the game. The offense did use up about 5 minutes of the last 7 to protect their lead. If the Browns didn't get that 1st down there the Chargers would have had much better field position and with only being down 1 point a field goal is all they needed to win this game. That was a clutch drive put together by Weeden before it stalled. I like Weeden. Scrappy QB.The defense with the help of the weather played a very good game. Got pressure on Rivers when they needed to and played pretty good coverage except a few plays to Ronnie Brown. Nice game!
Peak
Footballguy
A line of Sheard, Rubin, Taylor, and Winn could be a destructive force. Especially when you bring in fresh bodies like Hughes and Parker as needed. I want to see Winn at DE. Can only imagine he will get better!I wanna see what happens with Rubin & Taylor re-added to that DL.
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
unfortunately you'll have to wait until after the bye. Rubin is probably out again this week and Taylor will play but be limited.Agree it could be a very strong group though.A line of Sheard, Rubin, Taylor, and Winn could be a destructive force. Especially when you bring in fresh bodies like Hughes and Parker as needed. I want to see Winn at DE. Can only imagine he will get better!I wanna see what happens with Rubin & Taylor re-added to that DL.
cstu
Footballguy
Nope. Stadium was packed yesterday!ETA: That was sarcasm. When I drove by during the first half, it wasn't half full.I'm thinking about giving up my Chargers allegiance - any room on the Browns train?
wadegarrett
FFA Legend™
daveR
Footballguy
This "third-and-one, pass-is-just-a-long-handoff" nonsense has to stop. I understand the concept, but it's not accurate and myopic.
First of all, the pass to the flat has difficult angles to contend with, both in pass completion and YAC. The percentages are not the same as a handoff.
Secondly, passing the ball in that situation means trying to outsmart the defense (a dubious concept to begin with). This fails to account for imposing one's will on the opponent. In fact, it concedes that battle! On top of that, in this specific instance we were doing well on the ground and poorly in the air.
Sounds like we need a coach who has actually been in a game.
First of all, the pass to the flat has difficult angles to contend with, both in pass completion and YAC. The percentages are not the same as a handoff.
Secondly, passing the ball in that situation means trying to outsmart the defense (a dubious concept to begin with). This fails to account for imposing one's will on the opponent. In fact, it concedes that battle! On top of that, in this specific instance we were doing well on the ground and poorly in the air.
Sounds like we need a coach who has actually been in a game.
beer 302
Footballguy
I posted this in the game thread but it's worth reposting here:What a depressing loss. Had it and pissed it away. Weeden had a rookie game, missed way too many open opportunities, the coaching staff did their best to give the game away again AND WILL SOMEBODY BENCH MOTHER####ING GREG LITTLE!
Str8
Up
G
little
When daveR is calling for a coaching change, it's bad.
MAC_32
Footballguy
My takeaway's from yesterday
-Slept walk again to open the game, this happens too frequently with these guys
-For the most part good job moving down field, but I'm reminded of a rumor from last year about us rarely practicing red zone plays. Umm, it showed.
-Problems/indecisions getting plays in, if it happens once/game no big deal but we waste so many timeouts per game because the play just doesn't get in.
-Speaking of timeouts, another mismanaged end to half #1, once again taking timeouts into the locker room.
-We really missed Phil Taylor.
-James Michael Johnson is going to be a player, made a couple of bad plays (i.e. bad angle at Pierce on his TD) but they were correctable rookie mistakes.
-I didn't think Greg Little was too awful yesterday, just isn't put in the right spot, consistently. He's a role player and should be treated like it like he had been since the first Ravens game.
-I'm not going to kill Joe Haden for the TD he gave up, but that's inexcusable from a team leader.
-Overall, impressive defensive performance after they had their heads in the sand for the first 10 mins. That can't happen.
-3rd and 1 is going to define the Shurmur regime. 2 for 5 yesterday with a bad INT and every single one of them was a pass. I thought the first two drives were the worst but then the Weeden meltdown INT in the 3rd happened.
-Speaking of Weeden. God awful game, especially those first two drives of the 2nd half. He wasn't close to the worst Brown yesterday, that belongs to the coaches, but he was by far the worst on the field. Constantly not seeing people open down field, too many LOS penalties, VERY slow through his progressions causing him to be late to everything, including his checkdowns which he went to with frequency and mostly unsuccessful, woefully inaccurate - to be sub 60% when so many of his throws were around the LOS is just awful, footwork and late decision making were the primary culprit.
-3rd and long wasn't much better than 3rd and 1 either. First two in the red zone were LOS passes to stud play maker Alex Smith who got about half of what we needed on each play. Earlier on one of those drives Weeden hit Gordon for a 25 yd first down, but he threw it about 3 seconds too late and underthrew him by 30 yards. He sees that play and makes a throw and that's a 75 yd TD.
-Lastly, and most importantly, Shurmur needs to be fired right now. I don't know if he is the source of all the problems but he is a big part of it, I think we'd see a lot of questions answered if he goes and we give the reigns to an assistant for the final 7 games. I could rattle off 37 things I'm sure, and some were sprinkled above, but that drive after the Torrey Smith TD is why he must go. Pass-pass-pass-pass, the last two of which were a 2 yd throw on 3rd and 4 then a low % play on 4th and 2 for the game in your own territory - gift wrapping the clinching 3 points for the Ravens. No Richardson at all. Utterly clueless. Jimmy should have fired him before even getting to the press conference where he went on to further embarrass himself.
Thank God we get a week off of this ####. #### this team.
-Slept walk again to open the game, this happens too frequently with these guys
-For the most part good job moving down field, but I'm reminded of a rumor from last year about us rarely practicing red zone plays. Umm, it showed.
-Problems/indecisions getting plays in, if it happens once/game no big deal but we waste so many timeouts per game because the play just doesn't get in.
-Speaking of timeouts, another mismanaged end to half #1, once again taking timeouts into the locker room.
-We really missed Phil Taylor.
-James Michael Johnson is going to be a player, made a couple of bad plays (i.e. bad angle at Pierce on his TD) but they were correctable rookie mistakes.
-I didn't think Greg Little was too awful yesterday, just isn't put in the right spot, consistently. He's a role player and should be treated like it like he had been since the first Ravens game.
-I'm not going to kill Joe Haden for the TD he gave up, but that's inexcusable from a team leader.
-Overall, impressive defensive performance after they had their heads in the sand for the first 10 mins. That can't happen.
-3rd and 1 is going to define the Shurmur regime. 2 for 5 yesterday with a bad INT and every single one of them was a pass. I thought the first two drives were the worst but then the Weeden meltdown INT in the 3rd happened.
-Speaking of Weeden. God awful game, especially those first two drives of the 2nd half. He wasn't close to the worst Brown yesterday, that belongs to the coaches, but he was by far the worst on the field. Constantly not seeing people open down field, too many LOS penalties, VERY slow through his progressions causing him to be late to everything, including his checkdowns which he went to with frequency and mostly unsuccessful, woefully inaccurate - to be sub 60% when so many of his throws were around the LOS is just awful, footwork and late decision making were the primary culprit.
-3rd and long wasn't much better than 3rd and 1 either. First two in the red zone were LOS passes to stud play maker Alex Smith who got about half of what we needed on each play. Earlier on one of those drives Weeden hit Gordon for a 25 yd first down, but he threw it about 3 seconds too late and underthrew him by 30 yards. He sees that play and makes a throw and that's a 75 yd TD.
-Lastly, and most importantly, Shurmur needs to be fired right now. I don't know if he is the source of all the problems but he is a big part of it, I think we'd see a lot of questions answered if he goes and we give the reigns to an assistant for the final 7 games. I could rattle off 37 things I'm sure, and some were sprinkled above, but that drive after the Torrey Smith TD is why he must go. Pass-pass-pass-pass, the last two of which were a 2 yd throw on 3rd and 4 then a low % play on 4th and 2 for the game in your own territory - gift wrapping the clinching 3 points for the Ravens. No Richardson at all. Utterly clueless. Jimmy should have fired him before even getting to the press conference where he went on to further embarrass himself.
Thank God we get a week off of this ####. #### this team.
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
welcome, we've been waiting for you.
nxmehta
Footballguy
The most damning story from this game is the burning of three timeouts because of the inability to get a play called on time. Shurmur said very clearly that the helmets and radios were working fine, but that there was a "communication issue". Weeden was asked about it and just said "No comment". Are these guys for real? You're telling me that there is some kind of internal issue where you have to burn THREE timeouts for NOTHING? What is going on? Are Childress and Shurmur arguing in the middle of the game?
Arguably the single most important job of the head coach is gameday management. You can delegate lots of the other jobs to assistant coaches. But if you have a head coach that can't manage the game... it becomes obvious very quickly that he has to go.
Arguably the single most important job of the head coach is gameday management. You can delegate lots of the other jobs to assistant coaches. But if you have a head coach that can't manage the game... it becomes obvious very quickly that he has to go.
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
And then going into halftime with the last timeout in your pocket after wasting 30 seconds on the first play of the drive and then not having time to take a shot at the end zone before settling for the FG.
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
Certainly would be justified but what's the point? Not like Jauron or BTK is the long term answer. If they had an up and comer on the staff that they wanted to look at I could see it. Might as well let Shurmer drive the bus off the cliff and take the high draft pick.
Fallerjw
Footballguy
Even though I agree with you about Greg Little's route; based on the pictures I'm not sure the ball was thrown very accurately if Little came back to make the catch. That's nit-picking on Weeden, but I'll throw a bit of the blame on Weeden.
Fallerjw
Footballguy
I'd like to see if somebody else would be more flexible in their approach. For example, what would happen if they'd let Weeden line up in shot gun once in awhile? I'd like to find out. Doesn't every other team try to take into account the strengths of their players?
beer 302
Footballguy
Yes but we are the Browns and we have a system, catch up. It's all about the system.As for the throw I watched that play over & over and I'm confident if Little had simply ran to the marker the ball would have made it. Weeden threw it on a rope, no need to come back for it.'Fallerjw said:
FallenHero32
Footballguy
After seeing a Football Life on the Browns, and watching some of their games now...I feel for you guys. I really hope the franchise turns a corner here soon. Just to give some hope for the future to you all.
MAC_32
Footballguy
daveR
Footballguy
Excellent Q & A! Banner has my unqualified support.
thelongsnapper
Footballguy
Trying hard to focus on positives such as being in the game for the full 60+. However, as it was mentioned Sunday a bunch of times, until the Browns can deal with (a little) success and learn to win games (man I hate that phrase) fans are going to have to be happy cheering for a young team that shows flashes, but doesn't have what it takes to contend....yet.
I would give a penny (or slightly more) to be tapped into our owners mind during that game.
I wished this year for improvement and to be able to watch every game without my finger on the remote switching in and out of other games. I think the browns have made that come true. However, now I'd like to wish for more. I've said before that the Browns need a Ray Lewis or a Brees type leader that says, "screw this, we're not anyone's homecoming game. I am going to change this and anyone on this team is welcome to join me or find other employment."
I think we can come back when we're down a little. I think that this team doesn't quit in this situation. But what about when we're up early? It's almost like they didn't expect to be, and don't know what to do when it happens.
So, as the new owner, what wold you do? Draft another rook QB and some DBs? A game changer at TE and a lights out LB? Fire the coach?...or hire a new OC that has control of the offense? If you hired a new coach would it be a coordinator from another team? Retread HC like Reid or Gruden? If it were me...I'm really not sure if we're a couple pieces away or if we need to find a bunch of new pieces. Depth/improvement at CB and depth on the DL I guess would be my first choices. Unfortunately, a new HC and QB would probably be my second. After that...what are your thoughts?
I would give a penny (or slightly more) to be tapped into our owners mind during that game.
I wished this year for improvement and to be able to watch every game without my finger on the remote switching in and out of other games. I think the browns have made that come true. However, now I'd like to wish for more. I've said before that the Browns need a Ray Lewis or a Brees type leader that says, "screw this, we're not anyone's homecoming game. I am going to change this and anyone on this team is welcome to join me or find other employment."
I think we can come back when we're down a little. I think that this team doesn't quit in this situation. But what about when we're up early? It's almost like they didn't expect to be, and don't know what to do when it happens.
So, as the new owner, what wold you do? Draft another rook QB and some DBs? A game changer at TE and a lights out LB? Fire the coach?...or hire a new OC that has control of the offense? If you hired a new coach would it be a coordinator from another team? Retread HC like Reid or Gruden? If it were me...I'm really not sure if we're a couple pieces away or if we need to find a bunch of new pieces. Depth/improvement at CB and depth on the DL I guess would be my first choices. Unfortunately, a new HC and QB would probably be my second. After that...what are your thoughts?
Drop
Footballguy
I haven't read all the posts so I don't know if this has been addressed or not, but this is not the first time I've seen this...
On the last play of the Dallas game why doesn't DQwell Jackson attempt to block the kick? Has anyone asked why he didn't try to block the kick? He did the same thing on the extra point of the tied game vs Philly this year too. What is the basis of the strategy to only send 10 in that type of situation?
On the last play of the Dallas game why doesn't DQwell Jackson attempt to block the kick? Has anyone asked why he didn't try to block the kick? He did the same thing on the extra point of the tied game vs Philly this year too. What is the basis of the strategy to only send 10 in that type of situation?
