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If you don't think the tie-breaker in an MVP race has ever been the legacy of the players involved, you're crazy.
Tie-breaker? Well I guess it's good that he's competing against Brady and Rogers then... two guys that have never done anything.
1. That stupid commercial he does2. He seems to be mic'd up for every game, and he knows it.
Watt <<< Legacy of Brady, Rodgers, Manning
Doesn't stand up to reason.We already know what Watt and a team of "absolute garbage" do in the NFL. They go 2-14 just like they did last year. I know last year had its own awards, but that certainly speaks to the true value an all pro DL brings to his team in the W/L dept.
He single handed won 5 games? Could you point to which 5 you are talking about?fruity pebbles said:
Three things. First, he himself scored five TDs this season plus a couple safeties to add to those point totals. Second, Watt was responsible for setting up the offense with his 20 plus sacks and half dozen fumble recoveries etc. Third, anyone who saw the last Jacksonville game in particular knows that Watt threw that team on his back.
Again can you point to 5 SPECIFIC games where he single handed won them the game where even a below average D-lineman would not have?
I think your analysis is pretty good. Crediting Watt directly with changing 3 games directly is pretty accurate. He also almost helped them come back against Indy in the first game; the 24-0 deficit was just too much too overcome. The Texans also got unlucky in the 2nd Colts game in that Fitzgerald got hurt. Watt and the defense did enough to win that game, the offense under Savage just could not do enough.
Both Jags games, Ravens, Buffalo. Possibly Browns and Skins. I'd have to watch those 2 again. Watts stat line doesn't always tell the whole story. How do you factor in the 2 sometimes 3 guys the offense uses to try and contain him?
Thanks for responding (not being sarcastic), I can see how you might give him those games except the first Jacksonville game because of how bad Jacksonville is. I personally don't believe he single handed won 5+ games but I also didn't watch every snap of the Texans as I would only tune in and out of their games (they are my AFC team I pull for on the side).
This is also very important both in his sacks he does get as well as the disruption he causes on the line with double teams and protection schemes. I think its almost impossible to really appreciate a defensive player though as its just way to hard for the normal person to understand what if anything the offense is doing to neutralize the defensive player. (For instance you could see Sherman not being thrown at for a whole Packers game)
Let me turn this around a bit. Most think Rodgers wins the MVP, what's the Packers record with an average or slightly above average QB? Say a Tannehill or Flacco? Packers defense was pretty good as was the running game and they have two top receivers.
I would give Rodgers:
Have you watched Rodgers play and what he does?
We are not voting on who gets the highest Madden rating, we are voting on who is most valuable.
Of course, he's awesome. But with an average QB I still think the Pack are better than the Vikings or Bears.
Right. And if you equate most valuable with who won you the most games, I don't see how a defensive player will ever win MVP over the best QB in the league.
If your that valuable to your team your should at least get them to the playoffs. Like someone earlier said you won't see Manning, Brady, Rodgers missing the playoffs on a consistent basis if they do it's likely a fluke of a year.bigbottom said:
I'm not exactly sure what you think we are debating here. Do you not agree that if the determining factor is which player individually won you the most games, it will be pretty much impossible for a defensive player to win MVP over the best QB in the league? My previous two posts were agreeing with your conclusion based upon that premise.
Put Rodgers on the Bears and a average QB on the Packers and places are likely flipped. I would bet that the Bears would actually be the NFC North Champs.fruity pebbles said:
I just think the position that any DL, no matter how well he plays, is worth a quarter season's worth of wins is madness.Watt anchored the defense on a two win team just a year ago. The difference in his play wasn't even enough to make THIS year's defense good. They were a middle of the road unit. The only unit that had a top five finish for HOU was the offensive rushing guys. Which of course, directly damages the opponent's offensive opportunities, meaning the defense's overall ratings skew artificially high.
We can agree to disagree about how much a DLineman, or Watt, specifically, can affect the game.
last years record during his absence might indicate otherwise, but it is all just speculation. I love Watt. he is a home town boy making good. Anything he gets, he deserves.fruity pebbles said:
As stated upthread, I only saw one game this season where I was able to watch Watt on every single play. That was the Baltimore game. There is no doubt in my mind that the Texans lose that game without Watt in the lineup. I don't think you can simply look at the stats to reach that conclusion - you have to watch him on every play to see the impact. As for the other 15 regular season games, I can't really say whether and to what extent he impacted the outcome of the game as I wasn't there.
Help me understand your point here.I just think the position that any DL, no matter how well he plays, is worth a quarter season's worth of wins is madness.Watt anchored the defense on a two win team just a year ago. The difference in his play wasn't even enough to make THIS year's defense good. They were a middle of the road unit. The only unit that had a top five finish for HOU was the offensive rushing guys. Which of course, directly damages the opponent's offensive opportunities, meaning the defense's overall ratings skew artificially high.
There's simply not the potential to alter that many games' outcomes when teams can successfully neutralize or avoid your contributions on all but 80 plays over the course of a season, no matter how well those plays go. You can argue all you want that he affects way more plays than that, but the team defensive stats say the effect isn't particularly profound when he's not finishing the play.
You can't avoid the contributions of a Rodgers or Murray. You can muster your resources to try to minimize their impact (just as teams muster double teams to try to minimize a Watt), but the QB and RB are still going to do hundreds of plays worth of damage, and the records and overall strengths of the units they play on reflect the impact -- and thus the value those contributions have to generating wins and preventing losses.
A defense can certainly focus on stopping an RB, but that doesn't stop him from successfully contributing his specific yardage gaining skill 300 or more times a year. There are even some games where great RB's (or QB's) are successfully limited in what they accomplish.But even the best DL, no matter how successful he is at winning individual battles and beating schemes, only contributes his specific offense-thwarting actions 80 or so times a year.
