Snapping womens bras in the workplace was no big deal decades ago. Society changes.
Also there's a big difference between what happens on the field and off the field.
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Dolphin Players bullied Jonathan Martin, Richie Incognito SUSPENDED (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter KellysHeroes
- Start date
Also there's a big difference between what happens on the field and off the field.
squistion
Footballguy
From Keith Olbermann last night - Incognito More Than Just A Bully
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4aCBi026qY&feature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4aCBi026qY&feature=youtu.be
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
Sexual assualt was ignored in the high school locker rooms back in the 70s and 80s. I believe that culture has changed.
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
The only difference is whats expected and accepted. Fist fights are illegal. Fist fights are fine in sports with no legal reprecussions. if you want to apply your inner-office or dailey rules to sports apply them accorss the board and not where its convienenat and "wrong"
Their boss can call them an #####...mine cant. Which is right?
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
Apple Jack
Footballguy
You can't be serious with these drug law/war comparisons. Those are jokes, right?
Dippa
Footballguy
Doug B
Footballguy
Individuals can't fight institutions or toxic institutionalized cultures. You're mistaken in thinking this was strictly Martin vs. incognito.
And, as pointed out earlier -- Martin actually is, essentially, fighting his own battle. In court. And that is 100% legit.
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
Because that was happeneing everywhere and all the time.
Thanks for that comparison.
It would be a change thats good in theoory but would never happen or work in any of our lifetimes.
Their boss used to be able to put their hands on them. That doesn't fly anymore. Things are changing.
Doug B
Footballguy
Doesn't matter if they did. Given the amounts extorted within one calendar year, that's unreported income.
Doesn't matter. You can gift someone $10k, but they have to report any amount above that.
Doug B
Footballguy
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I really am not a big fan of Olberman but we posted about this earlier in the thread. We asked if Incognito shouldn't be in handcuffs. The 5:00 mark of that video is hilarious.
What would you call a 24 year old 6'5" 320 lb man that can't confront a bully so he goes and tells on him? I'm not saying what Incognito did is not out of line, but jeezus this kid sealed his own fate by handling it the way he did. If he thinks this will win him accepatance, I'd argue it will go the other way. Nobody is going to want a team mate that they can't be off color with due to fear that he is going to tell on them.
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
Riley Cooper was publicly forgiven by the leadership of his team, Richie has been banned by his team... see the difference
Doug B
Footballguy
The War on Drugs is a non-sequitir. One has nothing to do with the other. Doesn't add to your point.
From my own observations, HS and college locker rooms typically have lightweight hazing. Of course there's exceptions, and those exceptions will never go away. But I'd submit that the culture of locker rooms has already changed at the lower levels.
Besides, at the NFL level, it was the extortion that made the behavior over the line. It was shaving cream in the helmet or lunchroom pranks. HS and college players don't really have the power or means to extort $100K from teammates.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Doug B
Footballguy
You know what I mean, though, right? It would be like someone commenting in April of 2012 that it's time for healthy debate as to whether the NFL should come down hard on bounties. By that time, obviously, the die was cast.That is pretty arrogant IMO. Still love you Doug
Same here.
Dippa
Footballguy
What amount was "extorted" within a calendar year?
If Incognito was keeping the cash for himself, maybe, but getting team meals and trips paid for is not the same thing as a person accepting cash "gifts".
Doug B
Footballguy
Maybe there's a misunderstanding here.
The part of locker-room culture that's going to change is rookies serving as the veterans' personal ATMs, chauffeurs, etc.
Dead rat in the locker? Whipped cream in the helmet? Fight song at lunch? That stuff will still go on. It really isn't that hard to draw bright lines around acceptable hazing and way-over-the-line extortion and harrassment.
Doug B
Footballguy
Actually, it is exactly the same thing. Public officials, down here in Corruption Alley, get busted for it all the time.Dippa said:
The amount in question is $100,000, over time, directly from Martin to Incognito. But those aren't the only two names in play. Other rookies paid up, and other veterans accepted money from them. Again, this is not a two-player tiff.
Doug B
Footballguy
I don't think acceptance of the Dolphins' locker room is his goal. He may want to play again at some level ... but I'd bet a guy with Martin's options will be just fine living without football just the same.Two Deep said:
And once again, this is not one man against a bully. So much more going on, and too many people are ignoring that.
Doug B
Footballguy
David Dodds
Administrator
The hammer on this is going to be big. And I don't think it's going to be just one player that is punished. Look for Miami to face sanctions far greater than Bountygate. The Commish office will be looking to send a message to every other NFL team here regarding hazing/bullying/extortion.
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MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
Mookie
Footballguy
How many times does it have to be explained? This is not about bullying and this is not about hazing. This is a workplace harassment issue, which is covered by federal employment laws. Martin's "complaint" is against his employer - the NFL and the Dolphins - for not doing anything to stop the harassment and creating a "hostile work environment". Incognito's stupidity is just evidence in support of Martin's claim - nothing more. The Dolphins actions towards Incognito demonstrate that they are in full on damage control and have had an "Oh ****!" moment internally with their lawyers.
Martin does not have to defend himself because he is protected by federal law.
He is not a wuss for choosing to exercise his legal rights.
It couldn't be handled "in house" because the claim is against the house itself for creating the hostile work environment.
The locker room culture does not excuse repeated racial abuse, threats of violence, or extortion. These are professionals being paid to do a job. The same federal laws/protections (not an anti-trust issue) apply to NFL locker rooms, offices, and warehouses.
Martin does not have to defend himself because he is protected by federal law.
He is not a wuss for choosing to exercise his legal rights.
It couldn't be handled "in house" because the claim is against the house itself for creating the hostile work environment.
The locker room culture does not excuse repeated racial abuse, threats of violence, or extortion. These are professionals being paid to do a job. The same federal laws/protections (not an anti-trust issue) apply to NFL locker rooms, offices, and warehouses.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
The term "bully" keeps being used as though Incognito is an oversized Jr.High kid lashing out for attention. It's far more than that. Martin was pushed into a desperate situation, and I think we need to get off our high-horses, when we suggest his actions were outside of what we'd have done. Again, this goes beyond Martin not wanting to get beat up once, or Incognito stealing lunch money.Two Deep said:
Doug B
Footballguy
Dippa
Footballguy
I'm pretty sure public officials have different rules for accepting gifts than normal people and I doubt that's the whole story, but whatever. I just disagree that there is anything to show tax evasion or extortion at this point.
I haven't seen that $100,000 amount outside of this thread, so if there is a link to that, I'd like to see it, but I'm going with that being a rumor at this point. However, apparently it is the obligation of the giver to report it, not the recipient, so it would actually be Martin who would be in trouble for failing to report large gifts. But I think it could be easily argued that the gifts went to pay for multiple people, not a gift to a single person, and I don't see Martin and the rookies being pursued in this case. Not a lawyer though, just my $.02
GoodLloydHaveMercy
Footballguy
wait wait wait... Greg Schiano weighed in on this?Ministry of Pain said:
Bamac
Footballguy
I have a little window into this: I clerked for a federal judge, and we saw plenty of hostile work environment / harassment claims. I personally wrote several draft opinions in such cases.
It's true, of course, that the same laws govern all work environments. But in my experience federal judges -- right or wrong -- treat these work environments differently. I noticed two areas of inconsistency:
1. Women are more protected than men. The same factual allegations that would allow a woman to get to trial might get a man's claim bounced at summary judgment (or earlier).
2. White collar work environments are more protected than blue collar ones. Judges will downplay certain behavior as "horseplay" or "friendly banter" in a blue collar context, even though that same behavior might create a hostile work environment in an office building.
But from what I've seen, I think Martin would have enough to get to trial and have a good chance to win (although juries are a crapshoot). And that means he'll probably get a decent settlement instead of going to trial.
GregR
Footballguy
The sad thing to me is how many people are focused on how Martin handled it, as if that is the crux of this problem.
There are better ways Martin could have handled it. And that is about 5% of this issue and saying more than that one sentence about it is probably ignoring the real problem. No one should be in the situation he and the rest of the Dolphins rookies were put in, which went so far it's not fair to call it sports hazing.
Low levels of sports hazing can help build a sense of team. Carrying bags, singing songs, even paying for a single reasonable dinner. From various reports, Dolphins rookies were put in situations that also hideously past that. That is where the 95% of the problem is at. That Martin was less effective at putting a stop to it than Tannehill was, or than the defensive player who is nearly broke now from the veterans making him pay cash to earn his spot in the team's culture isn't really the issue. None of them should have to go through it.
We don't need to even have heard what was in the voicemail to see what was going on was way past the realm of reasonable sports hazing. The financial aspects alone say this wasn't right. This issue isn't about Martin or how he handled it. Obviously no one else put a stop to it either as other players suffered from the same.
There are better ways Martin could have handled it. And that is about 5% of this issue and saying more than that one sentence about it is probably ignoring the real problem. No one should be in the situation he and the rest of the Dolphins rookies were put in, which went so far it's not fair to call it sports hazing.
Low levels of sports hazing can help build a sense of team. Carrying bags, singing songs, even paying for a single reasonable dinner. From various reports, Dolphins rookies were put in situations that also hideously past that. That is where the 95% of the problem is at. That Martin was less effective at putting a stop to it than Tannehill was, or than the defensive player who is nearly broke now from the veterans making him pay cash to earn his spot in the team's culture isn't really the issue. None of them should have to go through it.
We don't need to even have heard what was in the voicemail to see what was going on was way past the realm of reasonable sports hazing. The financial aspects alone say this wasn't right. This issue isn't about Martin or how he handled it. Obviously no one else put a stop to it either as other players suffered from the same.
Tau837
Footballguy
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
Changed the post's font to Comic Sans for effect.
Donny Loved Bowling
Footballguy
So many of these ex-player and ex-coach talking heads are coming off like absolute phonies. If they were still in the NFL, I highly doubt that there would be all this horrified hand-wringing, expressing supreme empathy for Martin while demanding that justice be done. More likely they would tell Martin to sack up and take his lumps like a man or hit the bricks. But now that they're TV personalities, they have to publicly exhibit the proper amount of indignation and outrage, or risk losing their cushy jobs.
Not saying that any of Incognito's actions are defensible, just that the hypocrisy of the so-called insiders disgusts me.
I think Ditka is the only one I've seen who's keeping it real.
Not saying that any of Incognito's actions are defensible, just that the hypocrisy of the so-called insiders disgusts me.
I think Ditka is the only one I've seen who's keeping it real.
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mike9289
Footballguy
I think if you put a lie detector on Incognito 2 weeks ago and asked if he considered Martin a friend he would say yes. Ask him if Martin was bothered by the stuff he did and he would say no. Is Incognito that clueless, sadly yes he is. Think about it. If anybody ever offended him he would blow sky high in anger. Martin never got mad at him so in Incognito's mind, Martin didn't get mad so it must be OK. Martin on the other hand was very upset and offended but he kept everything inside. That's what causes the bullying in this world. The insensitivity of a neanthathal like Incognito who couldn't see that he was crushing the other sensitive person. Funny part is, I bet Incognito was shocked when Martin threw that tray down. First time he probably saw the anger come out of Martin.
Maybe I'm completely off base but if I'm on to something, this is the same stuff that happens with 2 classmates, 2 co-workers, 2 teammates. It isn't a locker room culture thing. Its a society thing and some people have taken their own lives in such a situation.
Maybe I'm completely off base but if I'm on to something, this is the same stuff that happens with 2 classmates, 2 co-workers, 2 teammates. It isn't a locker room culture thing. Its a society thing and some people have taken their own lives in such a situation.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
That might be the post of the thread right there. I got mad respect for you doing this, props.mr roboto said:
randall146
Footballguy
You don't think the ex-players and ex-coaches are horrified because they have lived both in the NFL environment and the real world and they understand, unlike some of the current players, that threats, racism, and extortion are not ok? Their perspective gives them more credibility, not less
G
General Tso
Guest
I think Mr. Martin is going to be compensated adequately for his troubles. And part of the damages awarded would include the obvious loss of income / loss of reputation that came along with having to blow the whistle on this thing. Just a guess, but we could be looking at anywhere between $25 million and $100 million in compensatory damages alone.
What really cracks me up is all the people who criticize Martin for not handling this well, or not "fighting back". Oh he hit em back alright - not in the face but in an area that hurts a whole lot more - in their wallets. Seems to me he is going to come out of this just fine thank you.
GregR
Footballguy
I guess ESPN got ahold of the interview that MoP referenced earlier where Incognito had talked about Tannehill having to buy them jet skis.
I haven't caught it myself yet, but have seen numerous people comment the same thing about it. Apparently it wasn't Tannehill buying them jet skis... Incognito said he took Tannehill's credit card and used it to buy the jet skis because he felt Tannehill owed the OL for protecting him.
I haven't caught it myself yet, but have seen numerous people comment the same thing about it. Apparently it wasn't Tannehill buying them jet skis... Incognito said he took Tannehill's credit card and used it to buy the jet skis because he felt Tannehill owed the OL for protecting him.
Gadabout
Footballguy
I'd take that kind of scratch in a heartbeat even though I'd be labeled as a cupcake for the rest of my life.
