Explaining Away Young's Wonderlic (1 Viewer)

[IanTucker]

It seems unlikely that a possible high draft choice wouldn't know about the Wonderlic and even more unlikely that his handlers wouldn't remind and prep him.

As noted above the obvious solution had there been a scoring error would be to correct his original test.

Whether the Wondelic is useful as a predictor in football is debatable...there have been many high scoring busts, as well as low scoring stars, but I think the embarrassment caused is the issue here.

 

[BigJim®]

Who is driving the coverup? And how?

I have obtained a confidential excerpt that might be helpful here...********************

NFL PUBLIC RELATIONS HANDBOOK

Wonderlick Test Choking Emergency:

When a National Championship QB and top-3 pick is choking on his Wonderlick test, he will instinctively grab at the throat. The QB also may panic, gasp for breath, turn blue, or become unconscious as he realizes the millions of dollars he is losing.

Immediate Care, Administered by NFL:

If the star QB has choked on his Wonderlick test, immediately begin the Wonderlick Maneuver to dislodge the score blocking the QB's top-3 status. The Wonderlick Maneuver consists of explaining the original test score away as 'incorrectly scored,' thus forcing the old score out and removing the evidence of choking, then creating a new score by having the QB retake the test. If choking again occurs, repeat as necessary (taking care not to reveal results of further choking) until a satisfactory result is obtained.

********************

 

[David Dodds]

I think the likely scenario was one of these things:

- VY has a disability that has him reading very slow and he finished only 1/3 of the test.

- VY messed up the bubbles (and was off by a question)

- VY did not know it was a timed test or was ill-prepared to take it.

None of these change the fact he likely scored a six. As others have stated, he could have just guessed B on every question and would have been near a 10.

Why would the NFL cover it up? Because anyone filling out the questions as guesses first and then trying to answer some of the questions would score higher. It reflects bad on the NFL if someone that is being considered for a top 3 slot scores lower than any other QB prospect ever.

Many people likely got involved, heard VY excuses from his agent, and just opted to have him retake the test (hopefully a different one). And my guess is that VY filled in all the bubbles first and then tried to answer some of the questions this second time around. A 16 sounds right under this approach.

Either way, these scores are likely to drop him out of the top 5-6 players in my opinion.

 

[Fullback Fro]

What your not understanding is that if he had proper representation they would have prepared him to take the wonderlic which would mean that he would have spent time taking old practice wonderlics and reviewing different strategies to score better on it.    They say its a test to test your ability to learn but you can also learn how to take any kind of test.   Example SAT classes give you strategies to do your better.  

Bottom line is I think he should have been better prepared to take it.  It almost seems like he forgot it was part of the whole process.

No, that's exactly what I understand. The exact same guy with a little training could go in and significantly improve his score. Not because he's any smarter. He'd score better because he hired good agents. So the fact that he didn't hire good agents is not something I'll hold against him like Rome said he did.J

You say one thing and think another. You will inherently hold the 6 against him. How could you not?

Hi Fro,Think what and say what?

J

You say you don't critisize him for hiring representation that could prepare him for the test

I put zero negative value on him for trusting the family attorney.

yet

has zero translation into his on the field performance

This fact whether you like it or not does infact translate to his onfield performance or your perception of what his performance ceiling is. I agree with your position is the basic fact that his level of intelligence is a constant and this can not change based on a test or test reults for that matter. The results are not fact but more perfomance indicators for making assupmtionis on intelligence.

The fact the he scored a six gives one the ability to assume he is unitelligent whether it is true or not. And he will and has been judged as having a physical flaw, this being the strength of his brain muscle, which can directly affect his performance on the field.

 

[guderian]

Why would the NFL cover it up? Because anyone filling out the questions as guesses first and then trying to answer some of the questions would score higher. It reflects bad on the NFL if someone that is being considered for a top 3 slot scores lower than any other QB prospect ever.

Wouldn't it be worse for the NFL for a team to draft Young based on intentionally fraudulent information obviously exposing the NFL to legal liability? Wouldn't it be better for the NFL to deal with this problem before Young is an NFL player and let Young's draft slot slip to an appropriate level based on his actual intelligence?

Why would they want this kid to be drafted higher than he should be only to see him bust as a high pick down the road?

 

[Futility]

I don't think anyone can speak as to why this happened with the level of facts we've been given. The only thing that should be crystal clear to people is the facts we have been given make zero sense, hence the conspiracy assumption.

*If I had to guess* what's going on: The test was sprung on Young because his stupid 'friend of the family' agent didn't prepare him (which has been reported). Recognizing how F'd he'd left Vince, the stupid agent claimed in advance that Young was taking the test under protest. He in fact took the test, completely oblivious to the chance he might get a 6 (which has been reported). After learning of the laughable score, Young's agent went into full scale panic and escalated his complaint, potentially even tossing out the term "ADA" due to the gravity of his client losing millions of dollars if the 6 was made public. The NFL, partially fearing an actual ADA complaint might be legit when evidenced by a 6 score, and selfishly not wanting to ruin the marketability/draft stock of it's next Mike Vick over a Wonderlic test, bent over backward to help VY prepare for and retake the test from scratch. In the NFL's mind, maybe "no harm no foul"... it's just a test. The NFL couldn't make the VY accommodation public knowledge because everyone who scored pathetically would demand the same accommodation, and how convenient that the ADA forbids them from publicizing ADA accommodations. Unfortunately, the whole plan was blown out of the water by PFT breaking the 6 score, so the NFL created the "scoring error" rumor, hoping it would be enough to brush this thing under the rug. Unfortunately, people aren't as dumb as the NFL thought and are a good deal more curious than the NFL assumed.

That's just my take.

Or you could stick by Occam's Razor and go with the possibility that he has a learning disability and no accomodations were made for him during the first test. There would be an actual test with an actual score of 6 (which some officials still swear happened) and it would also explain why there was a retest instead of a re-grade of the original test. Under the ADA, the accomodations made for Young would be confidential, so that would explain why there has been no clarification on the reason for a retest over a re-grade. This theory makes many fewer assumptions and still arrives at the conclusions we're seeing.Playing with tin foil hats is fun and all, but dyslexia or another learning disability is a more likely possibility.

 

[cstu]

Why would the NFL cover it up? Because anyone filling out the questions as guesses first and then trying to answer some of the questions would score higher. It reflects bad on the NFL if someone that is being considered for a top 3 slot scores lower than any other QB prospect ever.

Wouldn't it be worse for the NFL for a team to draft Young based on intentionally fraudulent information obviously exposing the NFL to legal liability? No, because the those making the decisions will know the truth about him - like they most likely do now

Wouldn't it be better for the NFL to deal with this problem before Young is an NFL player and let Young's draft slot slip to an appropriate level based on his actual intelligence?

Of course not. The NFL is a marketing league first and foremost that is all about selling products. There's no reason why they would want to lower the value of a very marketable player.

Why would they want this kid to be drafted higher than he should be only to see him bust as a high pick down the road?

Because by the time he is a bust (if he is) there will be another highly prized draft pick to sell.

 

[Ozymandias]

After the National Championship game, Vince Young's stock was at its peak.

Regardless of how it happened, Young's $ value has been severely affected. What GM wants to take the chance that's he's dumber than a 2x4, and draft him in the top 5?

The agent who let him take the test without adequately understanding what an extremely low score would do for his value, is probably worth a Wunderlic 6.

Come to think of it, maybe his agent took the test for him.

 

[guderian]

Why would the NFL cover it up?  Because anyone filling out the questions as guesses first and then trying to answer some of the questions would score higher.  It reflects bad on the NFL if someone that is being considered for a top 3 slot scores lower than any other QB prospect ever.

Wouldn't it be worse for the NFL for a team to draft Young based on intentionally fraudulent information obviously exposing the NFL to legal liability? No, because the those making the decisions will know the truth about him - like they most likely do now

Wouldn't it be better for the NFL to deal with this problem before Young is an NFL player and let Young's draft slot slip to an appropriate level based on his actual intelligence?

Of course not. The NFL is a marketing league first and foremost that is all about selling products. There's no reason why they would want to lower the value of a very marketable player.

Why would they want this kid to be drafted higher than he should be only to see him bust as a high pick down the road?

Because by the time he is a bust (if he is) there will be another highly prized draft pick to sell.

This marketing conspiracy theory is predicated on the average NFL fan knowing or caring about Wonderlic scores. The only people that care about Wonderlic scores are the hardcore fans who aren't going to change their buying behaviors because of one rookie's Wonderlic score. The average NFL fan probably assumes that these guys aren't even average in intelligence and they certainly aren't going to research or care about the implications of a 6 wonderlic score. For all they know it could be on a 10 scale, 50 scale or 100 scale.

 

[BigJim®]

I don't think anyone can speak as to why this happened with the level of facts we've been given. The only thing that should be crystal clear to people is the facts we have been given make zero sense, hence the conspiracy assumption.

*If I had to guess* what's going on: The test was sprung on Young because his stupid 'friend of the family' agent didn't prepare him (which has been reported). Recognizing how F'd he'd left Vince, the stupid agent claimed in advance that Young was taking the test under protest. He in fact took the test, completely oblivious to the chance he might get a 6 (which has been reported). After learning of the laughable score, Young's agent went into full scale panic and escalated his complaint, potentially even tossing out the term "ADA" due to the gravity of his client losing millions of dollars if the 6 was made public. The NFL, partially fearing an actual ADA complaint might be legit when evidenced by a 6 score, and selfishly not wanting to ruin the marketability/draft stock of it's next Mike Vick over a Wonderlic test, bent over backward to help VY prepare for and retake the test from scratch. In the NFL's mind, maybe "no harm no foul"... it's just a test. The NFL couldn't make the VY accommodation public knowledge because everyone who scored pathetically would demand the same accommodation, and how convenient that the ADA forbids them from publicizing ADA accommodations. Unfortunately, the whole plan was blown out of the water by PFT breaking the 6 score, so the NFL created the "scoring error" rumor, hoping it would be enough to brush this thing under the rug. Unfortunately, people aren't as dumb as the NFL thought and are a good deal more curious than the NFL assumed.

That's just my take.

Or you could stick by Occam's Razor and go with the possibility that he has a learning disability and no accomodations were made for him during the first test. There would be an actual test with an actual score of 6 (which some officials still swear happened) and it would also explain why there was a retest instead of a re-grade of the original test. Under the ADA, the accomodations made for Young would be confidential, so that would explain why there has been no clarification on the reason for a retest over a re-grade. This theory makes many fewer assumptions and still arrives at the conclusions we're seeing.Playing with tin foil hats is fun and all, but dyslexia or another learning disability is a more likely possibility.

I did mention I'm leaning toward ADA involvement in this due to the secrecy, but I don't believe it starts and ends there. I suspect any real threat from a desparate agent was accompanied by the desire to avoid an embarrassing situation. I'm no ADA expert but I suspect there's typically more protocol than saying "We'll take your word for it, let's pretend that didn't happen." I do think the NFL might have gotten more mileage out of the "scoring error" story if they hadn't involved Casserly and Mack.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

Why would the NFL cover it up?  Because anyone filling out the questions as guesses first and then trying to answer some of the questions would score higher.  It reflects bad on the NFL if someone that is being considered for a top 3 slot scores lower than any other QB prospect ever.

Wouldn't it be worse for the NFL for a team to draft Young based on intentionally fraudulent information obviously exposing the NFL to legal liability? No, because the those making the decisions will know the truth about him - like they most likely do now

Wouldn't it be better for the NFL to deal with this problem before Young is an NFL player and let Young's draft slot slip to an appropriate level based on his actual intelligence?

Of course not. The NFL is a marketing league first and foremost that is all about selling products. There's no reason why they would want to lower the value of a very marketable player.

Why would they want this kid to be drafted higher than he should be only to see him bust as a high pick down the road?

Because by the time he is a bust (if he is) there will be another highly prized draft pick to sell.

This marketing conspiracy theory is predicated on the average NFL fan knowing or caring about Wonderlic scores. The only people that care about Wonderlic scores are the hardcore fans who aren't going to change their buying behaviors because of one rookie's Wonderlic score. The average NFL fan probably assumes that these guys aren't even average in intelligence and they certainly aren't going to research or care about the implications of a 6 wonderlic score. For all they know it could be on a 10 scale, 50 scale or 100 scale.

Exactly. Before this fiasco, honestly, how many people...even here...really gave a damn about a particular guy's Wonderlic score? I know some of you guys did, and follow that stuff closely, but I doubt very seriously that most of you did before this. I know I never did. Now, so many people are ready to throw a guy under the bus over it. Never mind that Marino scored a 14 on it. Yeah, I guess he sucked, too....and never mind what Young has done on the field. Maybe all those TDs and the 30-2 record, 20 game streak, #3 pass-efficiency rating, first ever 3000/1000 player, and National Championship didn't really happen, 'cause he has a low Wonderlic. Maybe nobody should draft him at all.

Right?

...and some of you guys are hilarious. Do you really think this is an NFL organization's ONLY test or indicator of a guy's football prowess and aptitude prior to the draft?

If you really do, then you're just laughably and irrevocably beyond help on this topic.

Also, many of you act as if you have some right to know the scores these guys produce. From what do you derive this supposed right? You have no right to that info or the players' athletic performance test numbers. These people are being evaluated, measured, tested, poked, and prodded in order to get a job. Nothing more or less. They just give the info to us, in some cases intentionally. In some cases unintentionally.

 

[Hawk]

Here you go, BigJim.

Now the NFL has officially confirmed the 6 score was not correct.

http://www.statesman.com/sports/content/sp...3/1TEXFOOT.html

 

[B-Deep]

Exactly. Before this fiasco, honestly, how many people...even here...really gave a damn about a particular guy's Wonderlic score? I know some of you guys did, and follow that stuff closely, but I doubt very seriously that most of you did before this. I know I never did. Now, so many people are ready to throw a guy under the bus over it.

Never mind that Marino scored a 14 on it. Yeah, I guess he sucked, too....and never mind what Young has done on the field. Maybe all those TDs and the 30-2 record, 20 game streak, #3 pass-efficiency rating, first ever 3000/1000 player, and National Championship didn't really happen, 'cause he has a low Wonderlic. Maybe nobody should draft him at all.

Right?

...and some of you guys are hilarious. Do you really think this is an NFL organization's ONLY test or indicator of a guy's football prowess and aptitude prior to the draft?

If you really do, then you're just laughably and irrevocably beyond help on this topic.

Also, many of you act as if you have some right to know the scores these guys produce. From what do you derive this supposed right? You have no right to that info or the players' athletic performance test numbers. These people are being evaluated, measured, tested, poked, and prodded in order to get a job. Nothing more or less. They just give the info to us, in some cases intentionally. In some cases unintentionally.

To be fair, bench press reps and 40 times are not an acurate prediction of a players NFL success either. People care about Wonderlic scores because there are no sure things, and as great as VY was he still COULD be an NFL flop, as could Leinart or Bush.So right now everyone is trying to gather every bit of info they can to try and figure out who will do what, and Wonderlic is information that plays in.

No one that I know of is saying this score is the only thing that matters, but it is part of the information we have on him, so it does matter.

 

[Jason Wood]

Here you go, BigJim.

Now the NFL has officially confirmed the 6 score was not correct.

http://www.statesman.com/sports/content/sp...3/1TEXFOOT.html

But they didn't acknowledge what the score was...or that he retook the test either. He could've had a 4, and 8, or a 20...all we now know is that he didn't score a "6".The only logical explanation for these carefully chosen words from the spokeman is that the VY advisory contingent would not let the NFL disclose VY's actual score; which tells me he was a lot closer to 6 than he was 20.

 

[Da Guru]

Here you go, BigJim.

Now the NFL has officially confirmed the 6 score was not correct. 

http://www.statesman.com/sports/content/sp...3/1TEXFOOT.html

But they didn't acknowledge what the score was...or that he retook the test either. He could've had a 4, and 8, or a 20...all we now know is that he didn't score a "6".The only logical explanation for these carefully chosen words from the spokeman is that the VY advisory contingent would not let the NFL disclose VY's actual score; which tells me he was a lot closer to 6 than he was 20.

If Young flops this Wonderlic will never go away!

 

[guderian]

First, the NFL doesn't run the combine...

The combine is run by National Football Scouting, a firm based in Tulsa that contracts with 17 NFL teams, including the Cincinnati Bengals and Cowboys.

The question for the theorists is why would an independent scouting organization put it's credibility (and legal liability) at stake to participate in the alleged "marketing damage control"? Apparently the NFL doesn't even get the Wonderlic scores until after the combine according to an NFL spokesman--"The NFL doesn't get those numbers until after the combine, and the numbers are confidential."

So now this "marketing damage control conspiracy theory" would require the complicity of an independent scouting entity and a greater number of people. In fact, National Football Scouting isn't contracted by the NFL, but by several NFL teams. So now we have the NFL pressuring its teams to pressure an independent scouting organization to intentionally and fraudulently mis-represent the Wonderlic score of a non-NFL player to control damage to the NFL's ability to "market" this non-NFL player in the future??? This is the theory that two-thirds of FBG's agree with according to Joe's poll???

 

[B-Deep]

First, the NFL doesn't run the combine...

The combine is run by National Football Scouting, a firm based in Tulsa that contracts with 17 NFL teams, including the Cincinnati Bengals and Cowboys.

The question for the theorists is why would an independent scouting organization put it's credibility (and legal liability) at stake to participate in the alleged "marketing damage control"? Apparently the NFL doesn't even get the Wonderlic scores until after the combine according to an NFL spokesman--"The NFL doesn't get those numbers until after the combine, and the numbers are confidential."

So now this "marketing damage control conspiracy theory" would require the complicity of an independent scouting entity and a greater number of people. In fact, National Football Scouting isn't contracted by the NFL, but by several NFL teams. So now we have the NFL pressuring its teams to pressure an independent scouting organization to intentionally and fraudulently mis-represent the Wonderlic score of a non-NFL player to control damage to the NFL's ability to "market" this non-NFL player in the future??? This is the theory that two-thirds of FBG's agree with according to Joe's poll???

So what is the other explination?there was no first test?

 

[guderian]

First, the NFL doesn't run the combine...

The combine is run by National Football Scouting, a firm based in Tulsa that contracts with 17 NFL teams, including the Cincinnati Bengals and Cowboys.

The question for the   theorists is why would an independent scouting organization put it's credibility (and legal liability) at stake to participate in the alleged "marketing damage control"?  Apparently the NFL doesn't even get the Wonderlic scores until after the combine according to an NFL spokesman--"The NFL doesn't get those numbers until after the combine, and the numbers are confidential."

So now this "marketing damage control conspiracy theory" would require the complicity of an independent scouting entity and a greater number of people.  In fact, National Football Scouting isn't contracted by the NFL, but by several NFL teams.  So now we have the NFL pressuring its teams to pressure an independent scouting organization to intentionally and fraudulently mis-represent the Wonderlic score of a non-NFL player to control damage to the NFL's ability to "market" this non-NFL player in the future???  This is the theory that two-thirds of FBG's agree with according to Joe's poll???

So what is the other explination?there was no first test?

There could be several explanations. National Football Scouting could have screwed up the administration or scoring of the original test and they could be trying to control the damage to their reputation. The original reports could have been in error for a variety of reasons. The reports could have come from agents that are trying to make the VY advisors look bad. Those explanations are simpler and don't require the complicity of a number of different organizations with distinct agendas in this process.

 

[B-Deep]

First, the NFL doesn't run the combine...

The combine is run by National Football Scouting, a firm based in Tulsa that contracts with 17 NFL teams, including the Cincinnati Bengals and Cowboys.

The question for the theorists is why would an independent scouting organization put it's credibility (and legal liability) at stake to participate in the alleged "marketing damage control"? Apparently the NFL doesn't even get the Wonderlic scores until after the combine according to an NFL spokesman--"The NFL doesn't get those numbers until after the combine, and the numbers are confidential."

So now this "marketing damage control conspiracy theory" would require the complicity of an independent scouting entity and a greater number of people. In fact, National Football Scouting isn't contracted by the NFL, but by several NFL teams. So now we have the NFL pressuring its teams to pressure an independent scouting organization to intentionally and fraudulently mis-represent the Wonderlic score of a non-NFL player to control damage to the NFL's ability to "market" this non-NFL player in the future??? This is the theory that two-thirds of FBG's agree with according to Joe's poll???

So what is the other explination?there was no first test?

There could be several explanations. National Football Scouting could have screwed up the administration or scoring of the original test and they could be trying to control the damage to their reputation. The original reports could have been in error for a variety of reasons. The reports could have come from agents that are trying to make the VY advisors look bad. Those explanations are simpler and don't require the complicity of a number of different organizations with distinct agendas in this process.

So why not come out and say "there was no first test?" These agencies look bad ANYWAY because no one knows what happened. It is easier to belive there was some big conspiracy to make VY look bad? Please...

If the scoring and/or administration of the test was bad, why not explain it?

The thing is everyone involved looks bad NOW, why not come clean?

I don't think it is some huge conspiracy, but it is obvious something fishy is going on.

 

[Hawk]

Here you go, BigJim.

Now the NFL has officially confirmed the 6 score was not correct. 

http://www.statesman.com/sports/content/sp...3/1TEXFOOT.html

But they didn't acknowledge what the score was...or that he retook the test either. He could've had a 4, and 8, or a 20...all we now know is that he didn't score a "6".The only logical explanation for these carefully chosen words from the spokeman is that the VY advisory contingent would not let the NFL disclose VY's actual score; which tells me he was a lot closer to 6 than he was 20.

I agree, that's the obvious missing info. As I said, I too assume the test score wasn't good, even if not a 6. Probably less than the 16 his Agent claimed on the second test. I assume the real score will come out at some point. And it sounds like from some posts that people are still acting like it was some weird thing that Vince got to take a second test. From what I've read, lots of prospects take it more than once, not just Vince.

 

[B-Deep]

Here you go, BigJim.

Now the NFL has officially confirmed the 6 score was not correct.

http://www.statesman.com/sports/content/sp...3/1TEXFOOT.html

But they didn't acknowledge what the score was...or that he retook the test either. He could've had a 4, and 8, or a 20...all we now know is that he didn't score a "6".The only logical explanation for these carefully chosen words from the spokeman is that the VY advisory contingent would not let the NFL disclose VY's actual score; which tells me he was a lot closer to 6 than he was 20.

I agree, that's the obvious missing info. As I said, I too assume the test score wasn't good, even if not a 6. Probably less than the 16 his Agent claimed on the second test. I assume the real score will come out at some point. And it sounds like from some posts that people are still acting like it was some weird thing that Vince got to take a second test. From what I've read, lots of prospects take it more than once, not just Vince.

Again, it will not be wierd at all if the same reports go to teams on vince as on the othersmy understanding is if a person takes it more than once, teams see all scores

In that case, if teams see both of his scores than nothing is strange, but if most players have all scores on the report and he only has one and no one explains the missing test than things are back to strange

 

[Futility]

Here you go, BigJim.

Now the NFL has officially confirmed the 6 score was not correct. 

http://www.statesman.com/sports/content/sp...3/1TEXFOOT.html

But they didn't acknowledge what the score was...or that he retook the test either. He could've had a 4, and 8, or a 20...all we now know is that he didn't score a "6".The only logical explanation for these carefully chosen words from the spokeman is that the VY advisory contingent would not let the NFL disclose VY's actual score; which tells me he was a lot closer to 6 than he was 20.

I agree, that's the obvious missing info. As I said, I too assume the test score wasn't good, even if not a 6. Probably less than the 16 his Agent claimed on the second test. I assume the real score will come out at some point. And it sounds like from some posts that people are still acting like it was some weird thing that Vince got to take a second test. From what I've read, lots of prospects take it more than once, not just Vince.

There are a few problems that people have with Vince's 2nd test. The first test has been described as "incorrect," "inaccurate," "incorrectly graded," and "incorrectly administered." Whatever the problem was, people would like to see it corrected and get the actual score for that test. Even if athletes take the test more than once, I believe all of their scores are submitted to teams. As it appears now, the score from his first test is -- and will remain -- hidden. One possible reason for this (and IMO, the most likely at the moment) is that the secrecy involved revolves around the ADA. If Vince Young has a learning disability (dyslexia, for example), but did not receive accomodations for it, that test would be invalid. The results likely would be voided and it would be like he never took the test. Unfortunately the results were leaked, but no team or organization could officially release these results without violating the ADA. Then, Vince could have been given his second test with the correct accomodations and received a valid score (which is rumored to be a 16).

 

[TheLaw]

It should never have even been "leaked" until the score was official - i.e. reported to the teams after the combine.

 

[Futility]

It should never have even been "leaked" until the score was official - i.e. reported to the teams after the combine.

Correct. And it may cost him millions.

 

[B-Deep]

It should never have even been "leaked" until the score was official - i.e. reported to the teams after the combine.

Correct. And it may cost him millions.

I disagree...his test scores may cost him millions, not the leak.There is a simple solution, have VY and the NFL get togther and hold a press conference and clear it all up. If it was just an incorrect report and there was no first test this would clear everything up. You have to question why, when millions are at stake, they are not doing this?

 

[TheLaw]

It should never have even been "leaked" until the score was official - i.e. reported to the teams after the combine.

Correct. And it may cost him millions.

If indeed it is an ADA issue, the combine should be sued and held accountable for the difference if he drops from the top 3. Sad thing is that it seems as if somebody was chomping at the bit to get the score out and into the media. Has any other player's score from the combine been "leaked" as of yet?

 

[guderian]

First, the NFL doesn't run the combine...

The combine is run by National Football Scouting, a firm based in Tulsa that contracts with 17 NFL teams, including the Cincinnati Bengals and Cowboys.

The question for the   theorists is why would an independent scouting organization put it's credibility (and legal liability) at stake to participate in the alleged "marketing damage control"?  Apparently the NFL doesn't even get the Wonderlic scores until after the combine according to an NFL spokesman--"The NFL doesn't get those numbers until after the combine, and the numbers are confidential."

So now this "marketing damage control conspiracy theory" would require the complicity of an independent scouting entity and a greater number of people.  In fact, National Football Scouting isn't contracted by the NFL, but by several NFL teams.  So now we have the NFL pressuring its teams to pressure an independent scouting organization to intentionally and fraudulently mis-represent the Wonderlic score of a non-NFL player to control damage to the NFL's ability to "market" this non-NFL player in the future???  This is the theory that two-thirds of FBG's agree with according to Joe's poll???

So what is the other explination?there was no first test?

There could be several explanations. National Football Scouting could have screwed up the administration or scoring of the original test and they could be trying to control the damage to their reputation. The original reports could have been in error for a variety of reasons. The reports could have come from agents that are trying to make the VY advisors look bad. Those explanations are simpler and don't require the complicity of a number of different organizations with distinct agendas in this process.

So why not come out and say "there was no first test?" These agencies look bad ANYWAY because no one knows what happened. It is easier to belive there was some big conspiracy to make VY look bad? Please...

If the scoring and/or administration of the test was bad, why not explain it?

The thing is everyone involved looks bad NOW, why not come clean?

I don't think it is some huge conspiracy, but it is obvious something fishy is going on.

National Football Scouting doesn't care about the fans. There world consists of NFL teams (their customers) and the prospective players. So they leave it up to the people that care about the fans (VY's advisors, the NFL, NFL coaches and scouts) to deal with the media. That explains why all of the information is 2nd/3rd hand. According to the NFL they don't even get the combine results until after the combine. To me, these explanations make more sense than the conspiracy theories. However, having been on these MB's for years I've learned that the FBG's will buy into whatever theory shows that we are too smart to be manipulated by a major organization (in this case the NFL)--especially if it gives us the opportunity to bring down a player we see as over-hyped.

 

[BigJim®]

Here you go, BigJim.

Now the NFL has officially confirmed the 6 score was not correct. 

http://www.statesman.com/sports/content/sp...3/1TEXFOOT.html

Good job Mr. Alic, that evasive "the NFL wasn't involved in this until after the fact" should fan the fire a bit. Suuuuure the NFL only received numbers after the fact. I believe you. Plus, this schlep is no longer even acknowldging a 1st test. It doesn't exist because it was not ever sent to the NFL. It just up and disappeared and so all those "scoring error" releases were just made up. Hey, maybe VY's 1st test was shipped off to "Area 51" to rest in infamy with spaceships.

 

[BigJim®]

Here you go, BigJim.

Now the NFL has officially confirmed the 6 score was not correct. 

http://www.statesman.com/sports/content/sp...3/1TEXFOOT.html

But they didn't acknowledge what the score was...or that he retook the test either. He could've had a 4, and 8, or a 20...all we now know is that he didn't score a "6".The only logical explanation for these carefully chosen words from the spokeman is that the VY advisory contingent would not let the NFL disclose VY's actual score; which tells me he was a lot closer to 6 than he was 20.

Exactly,. Playing games with carefully worded briefs washing the NFL's hands of whatever went on is hardly going to put this thing to bed.

 

[B-Deep]

First, the NFL doesn't run the combine...

The combine is run by National Football Scouting, a firm based in Tulsa that contracts with 17 NFL teams, including the Cincinnati Bengals and Cowboys.

The question for the theorists is why would an independent scouting organization put it's credibility (and legal liability) at stake to participate in the alleged "marketing damage control"? Apparently the NFL doesn't even get the Wonderlic scores until after the combine according to an NFL spokesman--"The NFL doesn't get those numbers until after the combine, and the numbers are confidential."

So now this "marketing damage control conspiracy theory" would require the complicity of an independent scouting entity and a greater number of people. In fact, National Football Scouting isn't contracted by the NFL, but by several NFL teams. So now we have the NFL pressuring its teams to pressure an independent scouting organization to intentionally and fraudulently mis-represent the Wonderlic score of a non-NFL player to control damage to the NFL's ability to "market" this non-NFL player in the future??? This is the theory that two-thirds of FBG's agree with according to Joe's poll???

So what is the other explination?there was no first test?

There could be several explanations. National Football Scouting could have screwed up the administration or scoring of the original test and they could be trying to control the damage to their reputation. The original reports could have been in error for a variety of reasons. The reports could have come from agents that are trying to make the VY advisors look bad. Those explanations are simpler and don't require the complicity of a number of different organizations with distinct agendas in this process.

So why not come out and say "there was no first test?" These agencies look bad ANYWAY because no one knows what happened. It is easier to belive there was some big conspiracy to make VY look bad? Please...

If the scoring and/or administration of the test was bad, why not explain it?

The thing is everyone involved looks bad NOW, why not come clean?

I don't think it is some huge conspiracy, but it is obvious something fishy is going on.

National Football Scouting doesn't care about the fans. There world consists of NFL teams (their customers) and the prospective players. So they leave it up to the people that care about the fans (VY's advisors, the NFL, NFL coaches and scouts) to deal with the media. That explains why all of the information is 2nd/3rd hand. According to the NFL they don't even get the combine results until after the combine. To me, these explanations make more sense than the conspiracy theories. However, having been on these MB's for years I've learned that the FBG's will buy into whatever theory shows that we are too smart to be manipulated by a major organization (in this case the NFL)--especially if it gives us the opportunity to bring down a player we see as over-hyped.

So there somehow screwing up this test and starting this firestorm on one of the top 3 players in the draft refelcts well on them? Do you really think that they are not affected at all the longer this goes on?

 

[guderian]

It should never have even been "leaked" until the score was official - i.e. reported to the teams after the combine.

Some over-zealous reporter talked to some grunt at the combine and asked if there were any scores that were unusual. The grunt looks down at his sheet listing the Wonderlic scores and says "Vince Young got a 6". Meanwhile the scoring/administration error comes to light and the test is re-administered and VY gets a 16.

 

[B-Deep]

It should never have even been "leaked" until the score was official - i.e. reported to the teams after the combine.

Some over-zealous reporter talked to some grunt at the combine and asked if there were any scores that were unusual. The grunt looks down at his sheet listing the Wonderlic scores and says "Vince Young got a 6". Meanwhile the scoring/administration error comes to light and the test is re-administered and VY gets a 16.

What was the error? How did it only affect VY? Is this a common occurence?Why can't the NFL answer those questions?

They have not even acknowledged a first test or an error. The NFL said the first report was wrong, that is all.

 

[guderian]

First, the NFL doesn't run the combine...

The combine is run by National Football Scouting, a firm based in Tulsa that contracts with 17 NFL teams, including the Cincinnati Bengals and Cowboys.

The question for the   theorists is why would an independent scouting organization put it's credibility (and legal liability) at stake to participate in the alleged "marketing damage control"?  Apparently the NFL doesn't even get the Wonderlic scores until after the combine according to an NFL spokesman--"The NFL doesn't get those numbers until after the combine, and the numbers are confidential."

So now this "marketing damage control conspiracy theory" would require the complicity of an independent scouting entity and a greater number of people.  In fact, National Football Scouting isn't contracted by the NFL, but by several NFL teams.  So now we have the NFL pressuring its teams to pressure an independent scouting organization to intentionally and fraudulently mis-represent the Wonderlic score of a non-NFL player to control damage to the NFL's ability to "market" this non-NFL player in the future???  This is the theory that two-thirds of FBG's agree with according to Joe's poll???

So what is the other explination?there was no first test?

There could be several explanations. National Football Scouting could have screwed up the administration or scoring of the original test and they could be trying to control the damage to their reputation. The original reports could have been in error for a variety of reasons. The reports could have come from agents that are trying to make the VY advisors look bad. Those explanations are simpler and don't require the complicity of a number of different organizations with distinct agendas in this process.

So why not come out and say "there was no first test?" These agencies look bad ANYWAY because no one knows what happened. It is easier to belive there was some big conspiracy to make VY look bad? Please...

If the scoring and/or administration of the test was bad, why not explain it?

The thing is everyone involved looks bad NOW, why not come clean?

I don't think it is some huge conspiracy, but it is obvious something fishy is going on.

National Football Scouting doesn't care about the fans. There world consists of NFL teams (their customers) and the prospective players. So they leave it up to the people that care about the fans (VY's advisors, the NFL, NFL coaches and scouts) to deal with the media. That explains why all of the information is 2nd/3rd hand. According to the NFL they don't even get the combine results until after the combine. To me, these explanations make more sense than the conspiracy theories. However, having been on these MB's for years I've learned that the FBG's will buy into whatever theory shows that we are too smart to be manipulated by a major organization (in this case the NFL)--especially if it gives us the opportunity to bring down a player we see as over-hyped.

So there somehow screwing up this test and starting this firestorm on one of the top 3 players in the draft refelcts well on them? Do you really think that they are not affected at all the longer this goes on?

The longer it goes on with this message board? No. Every recent news report from the NFL teams has indicated that the test was administered/scored in error and that there was a re-test and VY got a 16. Sounds like National Football Scouting addressed it with their constituency--the NFL teams.

 

[guderian]

It should never have even been "leaked" until the score was official - i.e. reported to the teams after the combine.

Some over-zealous reporter talked to some grunt at the combine and asked if there were any scores that were unusual. The grunt looks down at his sheet listing the Wonderlic scores and says "Vince Young got a 6". Meanwhile the scoring/administration error comes to light and the test is re-administered and VY gets a 16.

What was the error? How did it only affect VY? Is this a common occurence?Why can't the NFL answer those questions?

They have not even acknowledged a first test or an error. The NFL said the first report was wrong, that is all.

OK, so then let's believe the theory that the NFL pressured it's teams to pressure an independent scouting organization to fraudulently amend test scores to "control the damage" to the NFL's ability to market a player in the future???As the NFL has said, these test scores are confidential. They can't hold a press conference just to make you happy just like they can't hold a press conference about drug test results.

 

[dickey moe]

What a cluster####.

 

[TheLaw]

People should just go back and watch the last 2 Rose Bowls.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

Exactly. Before this fiasco, honestly, how many people...even here...really gave a damn about a particular guy's Wonderlic score? I know some of you guys did, and follow that stuff closely, but I doubt very seriously that most of you did before this. I know I never did. Now, so many people are ready to throw a guy under the bus over it.

Never mind that Marino scored a 14 on it. Yeah, I guess he sucked, too....and never mind what Young has done on the field. Maybe all those TDs and the 30-2 record, 20 game streak, #3 pass-efficiency rating, first ever 3000/1000 player, and National Championship didn't really happen, 'cause he has a low Wonderlic. Maybe nobody should draft him at all.

Right?

...and some of you guys are hilarious. Do you really think this is an NFL organization's ONLY test or indicator of a guy's football prowess and aptitude prior to the draft?

If you really do, then you're just laughably and irrevocably beyond help on this topic.

Also, many of you act as if you have some right to know the scores these guys produce. From what do you derive this supposed right? You have no right to that info or the players' athletic performance test numbers. These people are being evaluated, measured, tested, poked, and prodded in order to get a job. Nothing more or less. They just give the info to us, in some cases intentionally. In some cases unintentionally.

To be fair, bench press reps and 40 times are not an acurate prediction of a players NFL success either. People care about Wonderlic scores because there are no sure things, and as great as VY was he still COULD be an NFL flop, as could Leinart or Bush.So right now everyone is trying to gather every bit of info they can to try and figure out who will do what, and Wonderlic is information that plays in.

No one that I know of is saying this score is the only thing that matters, but it is part of the information we have on him, so it does matter.

Of course there are no sure things, but I've always said I thought these guys overanalyse in the days leading up to the draft. Not the reverse. IMHO, this is what leads to the big draft mistakes, not a lack of data or analysis. At any rate, judging from what I've been reading, seeing on tv interviews, and hearing in radio interviews the last couple of days, the Wonderlic is approximately the last and least significant piece of information most GMs are weighing when determining a particular player's draft status. It seems the smarter ones tend to put a lot of stock in trivial things like on-field performance, personality testing and observed traits in interviews and background investigation, etc.Kind of like this...do you take a guy who can run a 4.32 40 w/o pads over a guy with excellent "game" speed and a nose for the ball?

Or more appropriately...do you take a safety who has good speed, is a decent hitter and run supporter and good in pass protection, getting a couple picks and knocking down a few balls, is of sound character but was not the leader of his defense, and scored a 36 on the Wonderlic...

...or do you take the safety who has great speed with an amazing closing burst, hits like a truck and always avoids his blocks, is like an extra LB in run support, is a ballhawk with lots of picks and defenses, is always in position, is of sound character and makes the calls for the defense and is the guy who settles everyone down when things get tough (is even considered a leader for the offense, setting the tone and temperament for the entire team, even the coaching staff), who made multiple huge, critical plays leading to his team's undefeated run, and who scored in the teens on the Wonderlic?

 

[knowledge dropper]

I love the ADA defense on this. Since Young is "slow" and may process information in a different way than others and needed to take the test in a more conducive environment for his "disability" will NFL defensive coordinators also have to respect his "disability?"

As far as others blaming his agents for not preparing him, that is garbage. Why don't you blame every teacher he has had from 3rd grade to UT that passed a guy that is obviously lacking a 3rd grade education.

 

[B-Deep]

Exactly. Before this fiasco, honestly, how many people...even here...really gave a damn about a particular guy's Wonderlic score? I know some of you guys did, and follow that stuff closely, but I doubt very seriously that most of you did before this. I know I never did. Now, so many people are ready to throw a guy under the bus over it.

Never mind that Marino scored a 14 on it. Yeah, I guess he sucked, too....and never mind what Young has done on the field. Maybe all those TDs and the 30-2 record, 20 game streak, #3 pass-efficiency rating, first ever 3000/1000 player, and National Championship didn't really happen, 'cause he has a low Wonderlic. Maybe nobody should draft him at all.

Right?

...and some of you guys are hilarious. Do you really think this is an NFL organization's ONLY test or indicator of a guy's football prowess and aptitude prior to the draft?

If you really do, then you're just laughably and irrevocably beyond help on this topic.

Also, many of you act as if you have some right to know the scores these guys produce. From what do you derive this supposed right? You have no right to that info or the players' athletic performance test numbers. These people are being evaluated, measured, tested, poked, and prodded in order to get a job. Nothing more or less. They just give the info to us, in some cases intentionally. In some cases unintentionally.

To be fair, bench press reps and 40 times are not an acurate prediction of a players NFL success either. People care about Wonderlic scores because there are no sure things, and as great as VY was he still COULD be an NFL flop, as could Leinart or Bush.So right now everyone is trying to gather every bit of info they can to try and figure out who will do what, and Wonderlic is information that plays in.

No one that I know of is saying this score is the only thing that matters, but it is part of the information we have on him, so it does matter.

Of course there are no sure things, but I've always said I thought these guys overanalyse in the days leading up to the draft. Not the reverse. IMHO, this is what leads to the big draft mistakes, not a lack of data or analysis. At any rate, judging from what I've been reading, seeing on tv interviews, and hearing in radio interviews the last couple of days, the Wonderlic is approximately the last and least significant piece of information most GMs are weighing when determining a particular player's draft status. It seems the smarter ones tend to put a lot of stock in trivial things like on-field performance, personality testing and observed traits in interviews and background investigation, etc.Kind of like this...do you take a guy who can run a 4.32 40 w/o pads over a guy with excellent "game" speed and a nose for the ball?

Or more appropriately...do you take a safety who has good speed, is a decent hitter and run supporter and good in pass protection, getting a couple picks and knocking down a few balls, is of sound character but was not the leader of his defense, and scored a 36 on the Wonderlic...

...or do you take the safety who has great speed with an amazing closing burst, hits like a truck and always avoids his blocks, is like an extra LB in run support, is a ballhawk with lots of picks and defenses, is always in position, is of sound character and makes the calls for the defense and is the guy who settles everyone down when things get tough (is even considered a leader for the offense, setting the tone and temperament for the entire team, even the coaching staff), who made multiple huge, critical plays leading to his team's undefeated run, and who scored in the teens on the Wonderlic?

That's why they get paid the big bucks, to make those calls. The point is, the wonderlic IS a part of it. They wouldn't give it if it didn't matter to them. Running a slow 40 on combine day does nt mean you suck, nor does blowing a wonderlic...but both raise questions.Don't dismiss the test or the process simply because VY MAY have done poorly. Ultimately the wonderlic and the 40 don't matter, it is how he does. These indicators, however, help to TRY and predict what he may do.

 

[B-Deep]

First, the NFL doesn't run the combine...

The combine is run by National Football Scouting, a firm based in Tulsa that contracts with 17 NFL teams, including the Cincinnati Bengals and Cowboys.

The question for the theorists is why would an independent scouting organization put it's credibility (and legal liability) at stake to participate in the alleged "marketing damage control"? Apparently the NFL doesn't even get the Wonderlic scores until after the combine according to an NFL spokesman--"The NFL doesn't get those numbers until after the combine, and the numbers are confidential."

So now this "marketing damage control conspiracy theory" would require the complicity of an independent scouting entity and a greater number of people. In fact, National Football Scouting isn't contracted by the NFL, but by several NFL teams. So now we have the NFL pressuring its teams to pressure an independent scouting organization to intentionally and fraudulently mis-represent the Wonderlic score of a non-NFL player to control damage to the NFL's ability to "market" this non-NFL player in the future??? This is the theory that two-thirds of FBG's agree with according to Joe's poll???

So what is the other explination?there was no first test?

There could be several explanations. National Football Scouting could have screwed up the administration or scoring of the original test and they could be trying to control the damage to their reputation. The original reports could have been in error for a variety of reasons. The reports could have come from agents that are trying to make the VY advisors look bad. Those explanations are simpler and don't require the complicity of a number of different organizations with distinct agendas in this process.

So why not come out and say "there was no first test?" These agencies look bad ANYWAY because no one knows what happened. It is easier to belive there was some big conspiracy to make VY look bad? Please...

If the scoring and/or administration of the test was bad, why not explain it?

The thing is everyone involved looks bad NOW, why not come clean?

I don't think it is some huge conspiracy, but it is obvious something fishy is going on.

National Football Scouting doesn't care about the fans. There world consists of NFL teams (their customers) and the prospective players. So they leave it up to the people that care about the fans (VY's advisors, the NFL, NFL coaches and scouts) to deal with the media. That explains why all of the information is 2nd/3rd hand. According to the NFL they don't even get the combine results until after the combine. To me, these explanations make more sense than the conspiracy theories. However, having been on these MB's for years I've learned that the FBG's will buy into whatever theory shows that we are too smart to be manipulated by a major organization (in this case the NFL)--especially if it gives us the opportunity to bring down a player we see as over-hyped.

So there somehow screwing up this test and starting this firestorm on one of the top 3 players in the draft refelcts well on them? Do you really think that they are not affected at all the longer this goes on?

The longer it goes on with this message board? No. Every recent news report from the NFL teams has indicated that the test was administered/scored in error and that there was a re-test and VY got a 16. Sounds like National Football Scouting addressed it with their constituency--the NFL teams.

Good thing the only place this is being talked about is these boards. I know ESPN has completely ignored the story. Of course the NFL owners probably know EXACTLY what happened and are just keeping it under wraps, we all know they are SOOOOO good at that.If the teams know anything more than we do we will know it soon enough.

 

[Futility]

I love the ADA defense on this.  Since Young is "slow" and may process information in a different way than others and needed to take the test in a more conducive environment for his "disability" will NFL defensive coordinators also have to respect his "disability?"

The subject at hand is a standardized test. Learning environments and playing conditions while on an NFL roster are not required to be standardized. In fact, the point is to have an advantage over your opponent. So to answer your sardonic joke of a question, no.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

Exactly. Before this fiasco, honestly, how many people...even here...really gave a damn about a particular guy's Wonderlic score? I know some of you guys did, and follow that stuff closely, but I doubt very seriously that most of you did before this. I know I never did. Now, so many people are ready to throw a guy under the bus over it.

Never mind that Marino scored a 14 on it. Yeah, I guess he sucked, too....and never mind what Young has done on the field. Maybe all those TDs and the 30-2 record, 20 game streak, #3 pass-efficiency rating, first ever 3000/1000 player, and National Championship didn't really happen, 'cause he has a low Wonderlic. Maybe nobody should draft him at all.

Right?

...and some of you guys are hilarious. Do you really think this is an NFL organization's ONLY test or indicator of a guy's football prowess and aptitude prior to the draft?

If you really do, then you're just laughably and irrevocably beyond help on this topic.

Also, many of you act as if you have some right to know the scores these guys produce. From what do you derive this supposed right? You have no right to that info or the players' athletic performance test numbers. These people are being evaluated, measured, tested, poked, and prodded in order to get a job. Nothing more or less. They just give the info to us, in some cases intentionally. In some cases unintentionally.

To be fair, bench press reps and 40 times are not an acurate prediction of a players NFL success either. People care about Wonderlic scores because there are no sure things, and as great as VY was he still COULD be an NFL flop, as could Leinart or Bush.So right now everyone is trying to gather every bit of info they can to try and figure out who will do what, and Wonderlic is information that plays in.

No one that I know of is saying this score is the only thing that matters, but it is part of the information we have on him, so it does matter.

Of course there are no sure things, but I've always said I thought these guys overanalyse in the days leading up to the draft. Not the reverse. IMHO, this is what leads to the big draft mistakes, not a lack of data or analysis. At any rate, judging from what I've been reading, seeing on tv interviews, and hearing in radio interviews the last couple of days, the Wonderlic is approximately the last and least significant piece of information most GMs are weighing when determining a particular player's draft status. It seems the smarter ones tend to put a lot of stock in trivial things like on-field performance, personality testing and observed traits in interviews and background investigation, etc.Kind of like this...do you take a guy who can run a 4.32 40 w/o pads over a guy with excellent "game" speed and a nose for the ball?

Or more appropriately...do you take a safety who has good speed, is a decent hitter and run supporter and good in pass protection, getting a couple picks and knocking down a few balls, is of sound character but was not the leader of his defense, and scored a 36 on the Wonderlic...

...or do you take the safety who has great speed with an amazing closing burst, hits like a truck and always avoids his blocks, is like an extra LB in run support, is a ballhawk with lots of picks and defenses, is always in position, is of sound character and makes the calls for the defense and is the guy who settles everyone down when things get tough (is even considered a leader for the offense, setting the tone and temperament for the entire team, even the coaching staff), who made multiple huge, critical plays leading to his team's undefeated run, and who scored in the teens on the Wonderlic?

That's why they get paid the big bucks, to make those calls. The point is, the wonderlic IS a part of it. They wouldn't give it if it didn't matter to them. Running a slow 40 on combine day does nt mean you suck, nor does blowing a wonderlic...but both raise questions.Don't dismiss the test or the process simply because VY MAY have done poorly. Ultimately the wonderlic and the 40 don't matter, it is how he does. These indicators, however, help to TRY and predict what he may do.

re: That's why they get paid the big bucks...Do you really think that's even a close call? It seems rather obvious to me. If that's as hard as an NFL GM's job gets (I don't think it is) then where do I sign up?

re: 40 time...

I agree, running a poor 40 at the combine doesn't mean you suck. You might be the fastest guy, but not a track guy, or for whatever reason have a poor start. Teams these days, however, put a TON of stock in those times, even when they've seen the player dominate on the field.

re: dismissing the test or the process because of vy...

I'm not dismissing the test or the process because of VY or his lack of performance, even at 16. I've dismissed the process for years, before I even knew who Vince Young was. I'm only on here talking about it because it's VY and he's getting ripped left and right for it.

Up until now I was only vaguely aware of the Wonderlic. I tend to dismiss it now because I've been researching it and paying attention to every interview and article I can find where an NFL player personnel person is talking about it. It just doesn't seem like the vast majority of them put much stock in the test as an important tool for them to use in determining who they're going to draft or when to draft them.

 

[B-Deep]

Up until now I was only vaguely aware of the Wonderlic. I tend to dismiss it now because I've been researching it and paying attention to every interview and article I can find where an NFL player personnel person is talking about it. It just doesn't seem like the vast majority of them put much stock in the test as an important tool for them to use in determining who they're going to draft or when to draft them.

Then why do they give it? If you ask them if the 40 time determines who they will draft they say no. No one admits that any measurables matter, but they do. I don't know how much stck they put in it compared to other things, but it does mean something to them or it would not be administered. I cannot tell you how knowing what -37 + 7 is equal to makes you a better QB, but the test has some value to them if it is being administered.And if it doesn't , good for Vince! If none of the GMs care the slightest about the Wonderlic than he has nothing to worry about and more power to him!

 

[guderian]

First, the NFL doesn't run the combine...

The combine is run by National Football Scouting, a firm based in Tulsa that contracts with 17 NFL teams, including the Cincinnati Bengals and Cowboys.

The question for the   theorists is why would an independent scouting organization put it's credibility (and legal liability) at stake to participate in the alleged "marketing damage control"?  Apparently the NFL doesn't even get the Wonderlic scores until after the combine according to an NFL spokesman--"The NFL doesn't get those numbers until after the combine, and the numbers are confidential."

So now this "marketing damage control conspiracy theory" would require the complicity of an independent scouting entity and a greater number of people.  In fact, National Football Scouting isn't contracted by the NFL, but by several NFL teams.  So now we have the NFL pressuring its teams to pressure an independent scouting organization to intentionally and fraudulently mis-represent the Wonderlic score of a non-NFL player to control damage to the NFL's ability to "market" this non-NFL player in the future???  This is the theory that two-thirds of FBG's agree with according to Joe's poll???

So what is the other explination?there was no first test?

There could be several explanations. National Football Scouting could have screwed up the administration or scoring of the original test and they could be trying to control the damage to their reputation. The original reports could have been in error for a variety of reasons. The reports could have come from agents that are trying to make the VY advisors look bad. Those explanations are simpler and don't require the complicity of a number of different organizations with distinct agendas in this process.

So why not come out and say "there was no first test?" These agencies look bad ANYWAY because no one knows what happened. It is easier to belive there was some big conspiracy to make VY look bad? Please...

If the scoring and/or administration of the test was bad, why not explain it?

The thing is everyone involved looks bad NOW, why not come clean?

I don't think it is some huge conspiracy, but it is obvious something fishy is going on.

National Football Scouting doesn't care about the fans. There world consists of NFL teams (their customers) and the prospective players. So they leave it up to the people that care about the fans (VY's advisors, the NFL, NFL coaches and scouts) to deal with the media. That explains why all of the information is 2nd/3rd hand. According to the NFL they don't even get the combine results until after the combine. To me, these explanations make more sense than the conspiracy theories. However, having been on these MB's for years I've learned that the FBG's will buy into whatever theory shows that we are too smart to be manipulated by a major organization (in this case the NFL)--especially if it gives us the opportunity to bring down a player we see as over-hyped.

So there somehow screwing up this test and starting this firestorm on one of the top 3 players in the draft refelcts well on them? Do you really think that they are not affected at all the longer this goes on?

The longer it goes on with this message board? No. Every recent news report from the NFL teams has indicated that the test was administered/scored in error and that there was a re-test and VY got a 16. Sounds like National Football Scouting addressed it with their constituency--the NFL teams.

Good thing the only place this is being talked about is these boards. I know ESPN has completely ignored the story. Of course the NFL owners probably know EXACTLY what happened and are just keeping it under wraps, we all know they are SOOOOO good at that.If the teams know anything more than we do we will know it soon enough.

That's my point and why I don't buy the conspiracy theories. The mainstream fan isn't going to care about VY's Wonderlic so the NFL, the teams, National Football Scouting (who runs the combine) don't have a strong interest in "controlling damage" when the average NFL fan is oblivious to the damage. I think the fact set here is going to be much simpler and I wouldn't be surprised to see VY score something like a 16 in a clean re-test. If people want to punish him as if he were applying to grad school that's fine, but I don't see football outlook should be downgraded unless he scored a bona fide 6 in a 'clean' testing situation.

 

[BigJim®]

FYI... they are STILL discussing and speculating the Vince Young Wonderlic situation on KFAN here in the Twin Cities as of this very moment, for those who believe this is a story only on fantasy football messageboards.

 

[B-Deep]

That's my point and why I don't buy the conspiracy theories. The mainstream fan isn't going to care about VY's Wonderlic so the NFL, the teams, National Football Scouting (who runs the combine) don't have a strong interest in "controlling damage" when the average NFL fan is oblivious to the damage.

I think the fact set here is going to be much simpler and I wouldn't be surprised to see VY score something like a 16 in a clean re-test. If people want to punish him as if he were applying to grad school that's fine, but I don't see football outlook should be downgraded unless he scored a bona fide 6 in a 'clean' testing situation.

You don't know anything about the "testing situation". All we know from the NFL is thisthe original REPORT of a 6 was not accurate. So there is no sense in implying he did not take a "clean" test because we don't know.

That is our information.

 

[B-Deep]

FYI... they are STILL discussing and speculating the Vince Young Wonderlic situation on KFAN here in the Twin Cities as of this very moment, for those who believe this is a story only on fantasy football messageboards.

It is also mentioned in the first paragraph on the front page of SI.combut no one other than FBGs is talking or cares about it.

 

[GregR_2]

Can folks quoting others maybe delete the 6+ posts of quotes that aren't being referenced?

Someone cross-posted to here a supposed post by someone connected with an NFL scouting organization, and I thought their take on the Wonderlic had merit.

In short, they said they view it as how quickly someone can assimilate new information in text form. If someone has a low score on it, they may need a lot of reps in practice to master a change. While a person with a higher score might be able to see it on paper or film and go out and do it sooner.

From the samples of the test, I'd say that's about the only part of it that I'd say applies to football. I would imagine a Bill Belichik or a Charlie Weis-style OC might want to put more stock in the Wonderlic than say, Bill Cowher and the Steelers. Belichik is constantly changing schemes and game plans, while other than the trick play each week, the Steelers would seem to have a simpler offensive scheme by comparison given their emphasis on the run.

 

[the hairy scotsman]

Up until now I was only vaguely aware of the Wonderlic. I tend to dismiss it now because I've been researching it and paying attention to every interview and article I can find where an NFL player personnel person is talking about it. It just doesn't seem like the vast majority of them put much stock in the test as an important tool for them to use in determining who they're going to draft or when to draft them.

Then why do they give it? If you ask them if the 40 time determines who they will draft they say no. No one admits that any measurables matter, but they do. I don't know how much stck they put in it compared to other things, but it does mean something to them or it would not be administered. I cannot tell you how knowing what -37 + 7 is equal to makes you a better QB, but the test has some value to them if it is being administered.And if it doesn't , good for Vince! If none of the GMs care the slightest about the Wonderlic than he has nothing to worry about and more power to him!

Look, don't twist my words. I didn't say "no GM cares about the test". Obviously someone, at some point in time, thought it was a good idea. However, that doesn't mean there are even a handful of those guys left. Some things just get institutionalized even when they aren't necessary.If I was a GM, I'd use the combine as a way to determine if a player had any glaring weaknesses. I'd look at the data I gathered there in conjuction with all the other massive background I had on the player.

If he had a bad no-pad 40, but had great game skills and played fast and with his hair on fire in pads...hey, I'm probably gonna say the 40 is inconsequential.

Same with the Wonderlic. If a guy had already appeared to me to be an idiot, then he scored low on the test, I'd hardly notice. But if a guy was noted for calm and excellent decision-making, especially under pressure, even on the biggest of national stages, like Vince Young, then I'd put very little stock in the Wonderlic in the big picture.

I know there are guys who have significantly raised their stock this year with excellent 40 times.

Do you think anyone has raised their stock this year with a good score on the Wonderlic?

 

[Hawk]

I love the ADA defense on this. Since Young is "slow" and may process information in a different way than others and needed to take the test in a more conducive environment for his "disability" will NFL defensive coordinators also have to respect his "disability?"

As far as others blaming his agents for not preparing him, that is garbage. Why don't you blame every teacher he has had from 3rd grade to UT that passed a guy that is obviously lacking a 3rd grade education.

Anyone saying he has a learning disability are purely speculating at this point. That has not been said by ANYONE in the media that I have seen, and was never said in 4 years at Texas."obviously lacking a 3rd grade education"

This is insulting and without any basis at this point given that the 6 was NOT TRUE and he was apparently able to at least get a 16 on it at some point.