FOX Sports is reporting Pats taped practice (1 Viewer)

[GregR_2]

... (snip to save scroll)

Not meaning this as an insult, but if you think Specter's involvement is about going after the Patriots and not about going after the NFL for a slipshop investigation and even making misleading statements to the public, you're viewing this with some homer-colored glasses.

I don't care what team it is. If the same kind of allegations were made about the Giants listening in on the Patriots radio signals during the last SB, and the NFL handled it the exact same way and didn't even talk to the Giants staffers who would have actually done it, the same exact thing should happen.

All I'm saying is that if Congress wants to open the league up to scrutiny, it should be calling for a LEAGUE WIDE investigation on rules infractions and internal investigations.To that end, I think there have probably been more complaints and allegations against other teams and other incidents that got swept under the rug. Is it in the best interest of the league to delve into every potential infraction? (I'm not saying it is or it isn't).

...

I'm not suggesting that getting Congress involved as a whole may not be a bad thing, but like with the Clemens situation it boils down to an isolated investigation pointing at one offender for what could be a much bigger issue.

I think the NFL should be under pressure to investigate more types of reported infractions than they have, to my knowledge. Violating/circumventing the salary cap, or spying on another team outside of a game should be a major violation that should always be looked into. Two examples would be the Pats possibly taping the Rams walk through, and the rumors from awhile back about Shanahan hiring people to tape another team's practice before their game in Denver (sorry, couldn't find a link now but someone during the whole Spygate fiasco had a link to a story on it). To me that kind of action is a lot worse than videotaping a team's sideline during a game, and is of the level that anytime you hear of it, you should look into it even if it was a few years back. And you should look pretty deep when you go looking.However I don't think the general way the NFL went about dealing with videotaping sidelines is faulty or should be having someone from Congress call on them to do differently, if that's what you mean. By "general" I mean, they realized running down every reported violation over the last 2 decades would not be practical or beneficial to the league. So instead they drew a line in the sand and essentially said, "Stop doing this going forward or we're coming after you". If a team again broke the rule after that, they went after them for everything they found.

I've got no problem with using that method to try to put an end to the practice. It's about the best way of handling a middling violation that may have been widespread in the past to where it would turn into an out of control witch hunt if you try to prosecute every past offense. I'd hope I'd have been smart enough to do the same sort of thing in the NFL's position.

But again, I think the NFL failing to thoroughly investigate the bigger matter of the walk through, and also of concealing and misleading on the results of what they did investigate, is why it got to a point that a Congressman felt he had reason to get involved.

To put the spin the other direction, would it be a beneift to the general public if there were thorough investigations into potential infractions by Congressmen and Senators?

I think Gonzalez tried doing that with the Dept of Justice already, but only did it to Democrats.

 

[Banger]

How's everyones glass house holding up? Be careful what you wish for, haters.

you don't think that taping a competitor in a closed door session before the SB is relevant? For me personally, I don't hate the Pats but if they illegally taped a team prior to the SB that could have effected the outcome I think that's an issue that s/b investigated.

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

I'll provide 2 separate links here to pieces written by respected sports journalists LONG BEFORE spygate was even a thought that may shed light on WHY the intentions of Arlen Specter's witchhunt should really be called into play.

CHEATING in the NFL By Don Banks, SI.com

This article, released in July of '07, highlights the fairly common practice of video taping coaching signals. That particular cheating technique was #1 on the list, and Banks committs by far more time to this method of cheating than any other. Specter needs to give Banks a call and invite him to the Capitol for a little talk as well. While he's at it, maybe he'll make some time for Jon Gruden. Btw, why have I not read this article anywhere since September??

Dolphins and Tapegate quickly dismissed. By John Clayton, ESPN.com

This piece just covers one isolated game between NE and Miami of '06 in which Miami bought a video tape revealing Tom Brady's cadence tendencies and audio, which supposedly Miami players felt was instrumental in winning that game 21-0. Nothing came of it. No NFL sanctions. No crying from the Patriots or Belichick. It came and went pretty quietly. How different might that situation have been played out had NE been the guilty party instead of a 6-10 Miami team that few people care about?? Exactly.

Bottom line. I have no problem if Arlen Specter wants to sick the Senate's watchdogs on the NFL and the New England Patriots. But dont stop there. Let 'em dig real deep. Let them do what Specter suggests Goodell failed to do. Dont stop with one team. Go after everyone. Let's see how much dirt really exists throughout the league.

When you (or your wife) clean the house, do you stop with just the living room or the den?? or do you only clean out a small corner of the kitchen? No, you clean the whole damn house. Is that what everyone wants? Right. Me neither.

Good day, fellas.

Nice job Twitch. It is amazing how much people hate the Pats when their own teams are probably doing much worse.

My team won the bowl and I have plenty of hate left for them! In all seriousness though, now with congress involved, this is less a Pats/Belichek issue and more a NFL/Goodell issue. We are in a danger zone for the NFL here, as the questions like "what did you know and when did you know it" start to take hold and without question, in this Clemens issue, in almost any scandal:

The coverup is worse than the crime.

 

[Ksquared]

Here are several of the reasons that NE is getting hammered by others. Most of the last 5-6 years the following statements/ideas have been shoved down everyone's throats: "NE is the class of the league (both on and off the field)", "NE is the model organization for the NFL", "NE is the greatest team ever (died down a notch or two after the SB)", "NE is arguably the best dynasty ever". All of these statements/sentiments have had validity due to the consistent winning outcomes that NE has shown through the last several seasons. Now how many of these 3-5 pt wins were due to them gaining and unfair advantage (basketball term) by cheating better/more than everyone else. These questions do place a cloud over these historic achievements and people are going to question the validity of all the above statements.

David Yudkin

As I outlined earlier, Walsh having a tape does not in itself prove a whole lot unless they can connect it to the Pats directly. Let's just again say hypothetically that Walsh has the tape and says he gave it to the Pats. Let's also say that the Pats claim he recorded it on his own and said he would sell it to them for $100K (or maybe they don't know the source) and they never saw it before.

I'm not saying that is likely, but there would still be a lot of questions to be answered even if such a tape exists.

As an employee of NE, Walsh cannot get a pass as to whether or not he was officially filming for NE. His actions are tied directly to his employer, whether he was told to or not (plausible deniability) by the staff. The same holds true for most jobs, especially high profile ones.

For me the cheating is more focused on how many players/coaches have stated after a loss how it was like NE knew what they were going to run before the play started. When the original issue of NE filming the Rams Pre Super Bowl walk through, Martz stated the only red zone plays that worked were ones they either drew up during the game or did not use during the walk through. You can believe or not believe that the taping of the defensive coordinator makes much of a difference, but filming a walk through certainly does. I am not naive enough to think that this was the only taping of a walk through by NE and yes I know that teams back in the 70's and 80's were paranoid about outsiders seeing their practices for exactly this reason.

So if that makes me a NE hater, so be it.

 

[massraider]

Here are several of the reasons that NE is getting hammered by others. Most of the last 5-6 years the following statements/ideas have been shoved down everyone's throats: "NE is the class of the league (both on and off the field)", "NE is the model organization for the NFL", "NE is the greatest team ever (died down a notch or two after the SB)", "NE is arguably the best dynasty ever". All of these statements/sentiments have had validity due to the consistent winning outcomes that NE has shown through the last several seasons. Now how many of these 3-5 pt wins were due to them gaining and unfair advantage (basketball term) by cheating better/more than everyone else. These questions do place a cloud over these historic achievements and people are going to question the validity of all the above statements.

David Yudkin

As I outlined earlier, Walsh having a tape does not in itself prove a whole lot unless they can connect it to the Pats directly. Let's just again say hypothetically that Walsh has the tape and says he gave it to the Pats. Let's also say that the Pats claim he recorded it on his own and said he would sell it to them for $100K (or maybe they don't know the source) and they never saw it before.

I'm not saying that is likely, but there would still be a lot of questions to be answered even if such a tape exists.

As an employee of NE, Walsh cannot get a pass as to whether or not he was officially filming for NE. His actions are tied directly to his employer, whether he was told to or not (plausible deniability) by the staff. The same holds true for most jobs, especially high profile ones.

For me the cheating is more focused on how many players/coaches have stated after a loss how it was like NE knew what they were going to run before the play started. When the original issue of NE filming the Rams Pre Super Bowl walk through, Martz stated the only red zone plays that worked were ones they either drew up during the game or did not use during the walk through. You can believe or not believe that the taping of the defensive coordinator makes much of a difference, but filming a walk through certainly does. I am not naive enough to think that this was the only taping of a walk through by NE and yes I know that teams back in the 70's and 80's were paranoid about outsiders seeing their practices for exactly this reason.

So if that makes me a NE hater, so be it.

Fantastic post.

 

[Black]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ap-g...p&type=lgns

Belichick has been taping since 2000, Goodell tells Specter

By LAURIE KELLMAN, Associated Press Writer

February 13, 2008

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Bill Belichick has been illegally taping opponents' defensive signals since he became the New England Patriots' coach in 2000, according to Sen. Arlen Specter, who said NFL commissioner Roger Goodell told him that during a meeting Wednesday.

"There was confirmation that there has been taping since 2000, when Coach Belichick took over," Specter said.

Specter said Goodell gave him that information during the 1-hour, 40-minute meeting, which was requested by Specter so the commissioner could explain his reasons for destroying the Spygate tapes and notes.

"There were a great many questions answered by Commissioner Goodell," Specter, the senior Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee, told reporters after the meeting. "I found a lot of questions unanswerable because of the tapes and notes had been destroyed."

Goodell said Belichick told him he believed the taping was legal; Goodell said he did not concur.

"He said that's always been his interpretation since he's been the head coach," the commissioner said. "We are going to agree to disagree on the facts."

Specter, from Pennsylvania, wants to talk to other league officials about what exactly was taped and which games may have been compromised.

"We have a right to have honest football games," he said.

Goodell noted that "we were the ones that disclosed" the Patriots' illegal taping of the New York Jets' defensive signals in Week 1 of last season. Further, Goodell said, they had an admission by Belichick.

"I have nothing to hide," Goodell said.

Goodell also told Specter that that he doesn't regret destroying the Spygate tapes or the notes.

"I think it was the right thing to do," Goodell said.

Still, Specter wants to know why penalties were imposed on Belichick before the full extent of the wrongdoing was known and the tapes destroyed in a two-week span. Asked if he thinks there was a coverup, Specter demurred.

"There was an enormous amount of haste," Specter said.

He scoffed at the reasons Goodell gave for destroying the tapes and notes, particularly about trying to keep them out of competitors' hands and because Belichick had admitted to the taping.

"What's that got to do with it? There's an admission of guilt, you preserve the evidence," Specter said. As for keeping the tapes out of the hands of others: "All you have to do is lock up the tapes."

Belichick was fined $500,000 and the team was fined $250,000 because of the Spygate incident. The Patriots also forfeited a first-round draft pick.

Specter has questioned the quality of the NFL's investigation into the matter and raised the possibility of congressional hearings if he wasn't satisfied with Goodell's answers. Specter also raised the threat of Congress canceling the league's antitrust exemption and reiterated that in the meeting with Goodell.

Goodell also said he has not heard from Matt Walsh, the former Patriots employee who performed some videotaping duties for the team.

Walsh told The Associated Press last week during the Pro Bowl in Hawaii that he couldn't talk about allegations that he taped a walkthrough practice by the St. Louis Rams before the 2002 Super Bowl. New England, a two-touchdown underdog, won that game 20-17.

Goodell said he has offered Walsh a deal whereby "he has to tell the truth and he has to return anything he took improperly" in return for indemnity. Specter said he, too, wanted to talk to Walsh and perhaps offer a different deal.

Goodell also said he reserves the right to reopen the investigation if more information is uncovered.

 

[AnonymousBob]

How many threads will this news spawn? What should be the over/under?

 

[Whiplash Inc.]

Giddy-Up

 

[Filthy]

Pittsburgh fan here and realistically I can't see Goddell vacating the Patriots' 3 Superbowl wins but that's EXACTLY what alot of people (myself included) want to see happen. Sounds harsh but when they only won by 3 points each time and arguably shouldn't have been there to begin with, it's a fair punishment.

Since the Jets game, I have despised Bill Belichick and have grown to despise the Patriots. To the sociable, moderate Patriot fans out there; I feel for you. The team you've supported and thought of as a great, dominate team will live under the shadow of this for years to come and most people will never accept any of your accomplishments under Bill B. as anything but tainted.

Bill Belichick = * genius

Tom Brady = * great QB

Patriots = * great dynasty with 3 SB wins

 

[Class Dismissed]

Here are several of the reasons that NE is getting hammered by others. Most of the last 5-6 years the following statements/ideas have been shoved down everyone's throats: "NE is the class of the league (both on and off the field)", "NE is the model organization for the NFL", "NE is the greatest team ever (died down a notch or two after the SB)", "NE is arguably the best dynasty ever". All of these statements/sentiments have had validity due to the consistent winning outcomes that NE has shown through the last several seasons. Now how many of these 3-5 pt wins were due to them gaining and unfair advantage (basketball term) by cheating better/more than everyone else. These questions do place a cloud over these historic achievements and people are going to question the validity of all the above statements.

David Yudkin

As I outlined earlier, Walsh having a tape does not in itself prove a whole lot unless they can connect it to the Pats directly. Let's just again say hypothetically that Walsh has the tape and says he gave it to the Pats. Let's also say that the Pats claim he recorded it on his own and said he would sell it to them for $100K (or maybe they don't know the source) and they never saw it before.

I'm not saying that is likely, but there would still be a lot of questions to be answered even if such a tape exists.

As an employee of NE, Walsh cannot get a pass as to whether or not he was officially filming for NE. His actions are tied directly to his employer, whether he was told to or not (plausible deniability) by the staff. The same holds true for most jobs, especially high profile ones.

For me the cheating is more focused on how many players/coaches have stated after a loss how it was like NE knew what they were going to run before the play started. When the original issue of NE filming the Rams Pre Super Bowl walk through, Martz stated the only red zone plays that worked were ones they either drew up during the game or did not use during the walk through. You can believe or not believe that the taping of the defensive coordinator makes much of a difference, but filming a walk through certainly does. I am not naive enough to think that this was the only taping of a walk through by NE and yes I know that teams back in the 70's and 80's were paranoid about outsiders seeing their practices for exactly this reason.

So if that makes me a NE hater, so be it.

I wonder if we will hear about Bill Bellichick being undefeated in a rematch against teams that he previously lost to in the season?I wonder if Nantz and Simms will still tout that?

I somehow doubt it.

 

[Class Dismissed]

And while we wonder if they taped the Rams Super Bowl Walk through, we now know, through the NFL Attorney, that they did indeed film and used the information gathered from that filming, to their advantage in the AFC Championship Game. One step away from the Super Bowl.

Goodell knew that, we didn't, and now we know that the penalty for cheating to gain an unfair advantage, for a trip to the Super Bowl is $750,000 and a 1st round pick.

 

[twitch]

Pittsburgh fan here and realistically I can't see Goddell vacating the Patriots' 3 Superbowl wins but that's EXACTLY what alot of people (myself included) want to see happen. Sounds harsh but when they only won by 3 points each time and arguably shouldn't have been there to begin with, it's a fair punishment.

Since the Jets game, I have despised Bill Belichick and have grown to despise the Patriots. To the sociable, moderate Patriot fans out there; I feel for you. The team you've supported and thought of as a great, dominate team will live under the shadow of this for years to come and most people will never accept any of your accomplishments under Bill B. as anything but tainted.

Bill Belichick = * genius

Tom Brady = * great QB

Patriots = * great dynasty with 3 SB wins

Let me take you back to that AFCC game in Jan. '05. You remember how that went down? Jerome fumbling early in the game? Video aided? Ya think? How bout those 3 Roethlisberger picks, one returned for a TD? The rookie QB who threw 2 picks the week before? Four turnovers by your O, a critical fumble by your HOF icon RB, and shaky rookie QB play, and somehow knowing Pittsburgh's DEFENSIVE signals could have made that happen? They lost that day because they turned the ball over on offense 4 times. Lump 'em all together if you want. But they lost that day to a better team. Video had nothing to do with it. The taint will apply to whoever chooses. So, continue with your despising. But cheating had nothing more to do with that loss than it did with the 2nd game you played this year against Jacksonville. They lost to a better team each time.

 

[Filthy]

Pittsburgh fan here and realistically I can't see Goddell vacating the Patriots' 3 Superbowl wins but that's EXACTLY what alot of people (myself included) want to see happen. Sounds harsh but when they only won by 3 points each time and arguably shouldn't have been there to begin with, it's a fair punishment.

Since the Jets game, I have despised Bill Belichick and have grown to despise the Patriots. To the sociable, moderate Patriot fans out there; I feel for you. The team you've supported and thought of as a great, dominate team will live under the shadow of this for years to come and most people will never accept any of your accomplishments under Bill B. as anything but tainted.

Bill Belichick = * genius

Tom Brady = * great QB

Patriots = * great dynasty with 3 SB wins

Let me take you back to that AFCC game in Jan. '05. You remember how that went down? Jerome fumbling early in the game? Video aided? Ya think? How bout those 3 Roethlisberger picks, one returned for a TD? The rookie QB who threw 2 picks the week before? Four turnovers by your O, a critical fumble by your HOF icon RB, and shaky rookie QB play, and somehow knowing Pittsburgh's DEFENSIVE signals could have made that happen? They lost that day because they turned the ball over on offense 4 times. Lump 'em all together if you want. But they lost that day to a better team. Video had nothing to do with it. The taint will apply to whoever chooses. So, continue with your despising. But cheating had nothing more to do with that loss than it did with the 2nd game you played this year against Jacksonville. They lost to a better team each time.

Wow, ya think maybe just maybe the Patriots not only recorded Pitt's DEFENSIVE signals, but also their OFFENSIVE signals? See, that's the rub here. When you're caught cheating, ALL of your actions (whether honest or not) are called into question. I'm sure that the majority of NFL fans out there that aren't Patriot homers realize Bill B. taped more than just the DEFENSIVE signals especially since he did so against the Rams before that Superbowl. Try sunblock instead of burying your head in the sand.

 

[Blackhawk 69]

Spector was on 610WIP this morning some of the things he said:

-He tried to get Matt Walsh to speak with him but he was too scared. Spector said the NFL gave him immunity from legal prosecution but put so many restrictions and limitations on what Walsh was and was not allowed to say and/or distribute to Spector that Walsh was too scared to talk for fear of prosecution.

-Spector also questioned Goodell as to why he levied a punishment on the Patriots before he even knew the exent to and length of how they were cheating.

-Spector questioned why the tapes were destroyed and Goodell responded that "he didn't want anyone to gain an unfair advantage from the tapes" to which Spector responded "how could a team gain an unfair advantage from tapes they don't have access to?"

All in all, Spector's tone seemed to indicated that he believed that this whole Spygate situation was a cover up.

Specter is right. The NFL tried to sweep this under a rug to avoid a scandal that would potentially undercut this decade's football dynasty. Goodell's explanations have been ludicrous.

Shep Smith? just did an interview and the guy said Senator Spector gets large contributions from COMCAST. Comcast and the NFL have been fueding.Na that can't be true a politician... Forget I mentioned it.

 

[Class Dismissed]

Pittsburgh fan here and realistically I can't see Goddell vacating the Patriots' 3 Superbowl wins but that's EXACTLY what alot of people (myself included) want to see happen. Sounds harsh but when they only won by 3 points each time and arguably shouldn't have been there to begin with, it's a fair punishment.

Since the Jets game, I have despised Bill Belichick and have grown to despise the Patriots. To the sociable, moderate Patriot fans out there; I feel for you. The team you've supported and thought of as a great, dominate team will live under the shadow of this for years to come and most people will never accept any of your accomplishments under Bill B. as anything but tainted.

Bill Belichick = * genius

Tom Brady = * great QB

Patriots = * great dynasty with 3 SB wins

Video had nothing to do with it. .

Everybody does it, but it really doesn't help, so why did they do it?

 

[fluorescent walkway]

Pittsburgh fan here and realistically I can't see Goddell vacating the Patriots' 3 Superbowl wins but that's EXACTLY what alot of people (myself included) want to see happen. Sounds harsh but when they only won by 3 points each time and arguably shouldn't have been there to begin with, it's a fair punishment.

Since the Jets game, I have despised Bill Belichick and have grown to despise the Patriots. To the sociable, moderate Patriot fans out there; I feel for you. The team you've supported and thought of as a great, dominate team will live under the shadow of this for years to come and most people will never accept any of your accomplishments under Bill B. as anything but tainted.

Bill Belichick = * genius

Tom Brady = * great QB

Patriots = * great dynasty with 3 SB wins

Let me take you back to that AFCC game in Jan. '05. You remember how that went down? Jerome fumbling early in the game? Video aided? Ya think? How bout those 3 Roethlisberger picks, one returned for a TD? The rookie QB who threw 2 picks the week before? Four turnovers by your O, a critical fumble by your HOF icon RB, and shaky rookie QB play, and somehow knowing Pittsburgh's DEFENSIVE signals could have made that happen? They lost that day because they turned the ball over on offense 4 times. Lump 'em all together if you want. But they lost that day to a better team. Video had nothing to do with it. The taint will apply to whoever chooses. So, continue with your despising. But cheating had nothing more to do with that loss than it did with the 2nd game you played this year against Jacksonville. They lost to a better team each time.

The problem you're going to have is that the cheating appears to be systematic and long-standing, with taping on both sides of the ball. And it's been going on since 2000. So taking a single game and trying to establish that NE would have won *that* game without the cheating won't erase the possibility that there weren't other games that were decided by an unfair advantage. I don't see any mention of the 2005 AFCCG in his post. He just said that maybe the Patriots shouldn't have been in the SB in the first place. Maybe they shouldn't have been. A regular season game here or there goes the other way, and the seeding is different. And then maybe they lose in one of the two playoff rounds. Or maybe they lose in the SB. That's what's so damaging about the allegations. Maybe its unfair (but then again, maybe it isn't), but it's impossible to disprove the influence of cheating for such a long-term thing as a season-long championship run. I'm *really* glad I'm not a Pats fan right now.

 

[fluorescent walkway]

Legalities aside, just the widespread *perception*. Man.

Think about it, if you're a Pats fan, you're going to have to deal with this whole thing anytime highlights of 2001, 2004, or 2005 come on the tube, and there are any non-Pats fans around. That's going to completely suck. Oof.

And the ONE thing that could have mitigated some of it - an undefeated season and a SB championship when presumably Belichick wasn't taping - blew up in their face with less than a minute to go in the big game.

 

[Road Warriors]

...Wow, ya think maybe just maybe the Patriots not only recorded Pitt's DEFENSIVE signals, but also their OFFENSIVE signals? See, that's the rub here. When you're caught cheating, ALL of your actions (whether honest or not) are called into question. I'm sure that the majority of NFL fans out there that aren't Patriot homers realize Bill B. taped more than just the DEFENSIVE signals especially since he did so against the Rams before that Superbowl. Try sunblock instead of burying your head in the sand.

Aren't the offensive signals sent via headset comms? Tough to video that, especially with coordinators covering their mouths.

 

[fluorescent walkway]

...Wow, ya think maybe just maybe the Patriots not only recorded Pitt's DEFENSIVE signals, but also their OFFENSIVE signals? See, that's the rub here. When you're caught cheating, ALL of your actions (whether honest or not) are called into question. I'm sure that the majority of NFL fans out there that aren't Patriot homers realize Bill B. taped more than just the DEFENSIVE signals especially since he did so against the Rams before that Superbowl. Try sunblock instead of burying your head in the sand.

Aren't the offensive signals sent via headset comms? Tough to video that, especially with coordinators covering their mouths.

Who knows? Taping walkthroughs and all. Belichick seems to be a pretty resourceful guy when it comes to leveraging an advantage with improved (ahem) communications. And now Goodell destroyed all the evidence, so we'll never know the full extent of it...

 

[fluorescent walkway]

Someone more familiar with the situation, answer this question for me -

On what standing is Specter getting involved with what seems to be internal NFL issue?

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Pittsburgh fan here and realistically I can't see Goddell vacating the Patriots' 3 Superbowl wins but that's EXACTLY what alot of people (myself included) want to see happen. Sounds harsh but when they only won by 3 points each time and arguably shouldn't have been there to begin with, it's a fair punishment.

Since the Jets game, I have despised Bill Belichick and have grown to despise the Patriots. To the sociable, moderate Patriot fans out there; I feel for you. The team you've supported and thought of as a great, dominate team will live under the shadow of this for years to come and most people will never accept any of your accomplishments under Bill B. as anything but tainted.

Bill Belichick = * genius

Tom Brady = * great QB

Patriots = * great dynasty with 3 SB wins

Let me take you back to that AFCC game in Jan. '05. You remember how that went down? Jerome fumbling early in the game? Video aided? Ya think? How bout those 3 Roethlisberger picks, one returned for a TD? The rookie QB who threw 2 picks the week before? Four turnovers by your O, a critical fumble by your HOF icon RB, and shaky rookie QB play, and somehow knowing Pittsburgh's DEFENSIVE signals could have made that happen? They lost that day because they turned the ball over on offense 4 times. Lump 'em all together if you want. But they lost that day to a better team. Video had nothing to do with it. The taint will apply to whoever chooses. So, continue with your despising. But cheating had nothing more to do with that loss than it did with the 2nd game you played this year against Jacksonville. They lost to a better team each time.

Wow, ya think maybe just maybe the Patriots not only recorded Pitt's DEFENSIVE signals, but also their OFFENSIVE signals? See, that's the rub here. When you're caught cheating, ALL of your actions (whether honest or not) are called into question. I'm sure that the majority of NFL fans out there that aren't Patriot homers realize Bill B. taped more than just the DEFENSIVE signals especially since he did so against the Rams before that Superbowl. Try sunblock instead of burying your head in the sand.

Sadly, the taint which you refer to would apparently not apply if the Patriots had simply placed a scout in the stands to take notes of the defensive playcalling rather than putting a videocamera on the sideline. Sort of makes your arguments look like horse####.

 

[twitch]

Pittsburgh fan here and realistically I can't see Goddell vacating the Patriots' 3 Superbowl wins but that's EXACTLY what alot of people (myself included) want to see happen. Sounds harsh but when they only won by 3 points each time and arguably shouldn't have been there to begin with, it's a fair punishment.

Since the Jets game, I have despised Bill Belichick and have grown to despise the Patriots. To the sociable, moderate Patriot fans out there; I feel for you. The team you've supported and thought of as a great, dominate team will live under the shadow of this for years to come and most people will never accept any of your accomplishments under Bill B. as anything but tainted.

Bill Belichick = * genius

Tom Brady = * great QB

Patriots = * great dynasty with 3 SB wins

Let me take you back to that AFCC game in Jan. '05. You remember how that went down? Jerome fumbling early in the game? Video aided? Ya think? How bout those 3 Roethlisberger picks, one returned for a TD? The rookie QB who threw 2 picks the week before? Four turnovers by your O, a critical fumble by your HOF icon RB, and shaky rookie QB play, and somehow knowing Pittsburgh's DEFENSIVE signals could have made that happen? They lost that day because they turned the ball over on offense 4 times. Lump 'em all together if you want. But they lost that day to a better team. Video had nothing to do with it. The taint will apply to whoever chooses. So, continue with your despising. But cheating had nothing more to do with that loss than it did with the 2nd game you played this year against Jacksonville. They lost to a better team each time.

Wow, ya think maybe just maybe the Patriots not only recorded Pitt's DEFENSIVE signals, but also their OFFENSIVE signals? See, that's the rub here. When you're caught cheating, ALL of your actions (whether honest or not) are called into question. I'm sure that the majority of NFL fans out there that aren't Patriot homers realize Bill B. taped more than just the DEFENSIVE signals especially since he did so against the Rams before that Superbowl. Try sunblock instead of burying your head in the sand.

Got it. Dream your little dream, and hate on. Enjoy the 'rub'.

 

[switz]

Legalities aside, just the widespread *perception*. Man.Think about it, if you're a Pats fan, you're going to have to deal with this whole thing anytime highlights of 2001, 2004, or 2005 come on the tube, and there are any non-Pats fans around. That's going to completely suck. Oof.And the ONE thing that could have mitigated some of it - an undefeated season and a SB championship when presumably Belichick wasn't taping - blew up in their face with less than a minute to go in the big game.

Without starting a whole twitch flame war...Anyone wonder if the Giants "protected" themselves from any taping, and that's why they were able to dominate the Pats the way they did? I mean in weak 17, both teams put up points, and the Patriots came out ahead by only three.Now in the SB, the Giants were still unable to score a bunch, but their defense seemed to have an edge on the Pats that they didn't in week 17. Maybe they changed their defensive calls and the Patriots were unable to compensate without an unfair advantage.... just throwing it out there.Just seems, NE had an advantage by being able to recognize the defense in advance - now all of the sudden they get dominated by a defense? Hmmm...I sorta think they never stopped taping... and the Giants protected themselves in the SB from the spying, and that's partially why they were so successful.

 

[switz]

Unfortunately, especially with this SB loss... it puts a taint on all previous SBs by the Pats since 2000. It seems clear they won by means of an unfair advantage. I honestly think the NFL should just remove the results os those wins, and instead just have a statement to the effect that the SuperBowls those seasons were not played under legitimate competitive means, and the results cannot be considered valid.

 

[switz]

If this were happening to any other team, it wouldn't be such a big deal.

I don't see any grounds for anyone making that statement. It didn't matter what team did this.And for FORMER coaches to say they did similar things doesn't matter. What can you do about them? And do you really think Jimmy Johnson or Don Shula did the same type of taping that the Patriots did? I for one consider that the circumstantial evidence would indicate it was not the same thing.And since both Shula and Johnson are out of the NFL, the NFL has ZERO jurisdiction over them. Belichick is still in the NFL, hence the NFL CAN and SHOULD and DID do something about him.

 

[VICK-tory]

Its like the baseball steroids thing it's just not gonna go away

 

[redman]

Spector was on 610WIP this morning some of the things he said:

-He tried to get Matt Walsh to speak with him but he was too scared. Spector said the NFL gave him immunity from legal prosecution but put so many restrictions and limitations on what Walsh was and was not allowed to say and/or distribute to Spector that Walsh was too scared to talk for fear of prosecution.

-Spector also questioned Goodell as to why he levied a punishment on the Patriots before he even knew the exent to and length of how they were cheating.

-Spector questioned why the tapes were destroyed and Goodell responded that "he didn't want anyone to gain an unfair advantage from the tapes" to which Spector responded "how could a team gain an unfair advantage from tapes they don't have access to?"

All in all, Spector's tone seemed to indicated that he believed that this whole Spygate situation was a cover up.

Specter is right. The NFL tried to sweep this under a rug to avoid a scandal that would potentially undercut this decade's football dynasty. Goodell's explanations have been ludicrous.

Shep Smith? just did an interview and the guy said Senator Spector gets large contributions from COMCAST. Comcast and the NFL have been fueding.Na that can't be true a politician... Forget I mentioned it.

And? I'm just commenting on Goodell's own "explanations" about the league's handling of this, and they suck. The particular politician and his reason why he's bringing this stuff to light is incidental to me.

I'm making my own judgments here. I hope you don't think that I have an Arlen Specter FatHead on my wall.

 

[Road Warriors]

Someone more familiar with the situation, answer this question for me -On what standing is Specter getting involved with seems to be internal NFL issue?

From a couple of articles I read during SB week, he sent an inquiry to the NFL, effectively questioning if there had been any evidence of the Patriots taping the Eagles during the Super Bowl in 05. At this point, he has threatened convening the judiciary committee, but as far as I know, right now there is no "official" Congressional stance on this. Specter has taken this to Goodell on his own initiative.I've seen Easterbrook speculate that Congress could try to claim that the outcome of these games was not "fair" and there is legislation that you can't promote "live competition" over public airwaves if it is in fact not a true competition ( think Pro Wrestling ). I've heard Specter talk mostly about "a fair NFL" or such, and I've heard him call to attention the Anti Trust status the league enjoys is subject to congressional oversight. The actual link between the taping incident and Congress getting involved has been not made clear, IMO.

 

[Tau837]

...Wow, ya think maybe just maybe the Patriots not only recorded Pitt's DEFENSIVE signals, but also their OFFENSIVE signals? See, that's the rub here. When you're caught cheating, ALL of your actions (whether honest or not) are called into question. I'm sure that the majority of NFL fans out there that aren't Patriot homers realize Bill B. taped more than just the DEFENSIVE signals especially since he did so against the Rams before that Superbowl. Try sunblock instead of burying your head in the sand.

Aren't the offensive signals sent via headset comms? Tough to video that, especially with coordinators covering their mouths.

Right. That's why they taped walkthroughs.

 

[The foo]

Legalities aside, just the widespread *perception*. Man.Think about it, if you're a Pats fan, you're going to have to deal with this whole thing anytime highlights of 2001, 2004, or 2005 come on the tube, and there are any non-Pats fans around. That's going to completely suck. Oof.And the ONE thing that could have mitigated some of it - an undefeated season and a SB championship when presumably Belichick wasn't taping - blew up in their face with less than a minute to go in the big game.

Without starting a whole twitch flame war...Anyone wonder if the Giants "protected" themselves from any taping, and that's why they were able to dominate the Pats the way they did? I mean in weak 17, both teams put up points, and the Patriots came out ahead by only three.Now in the SB, the Giants were still unable to score a bunch, but their defense seemed to have an edge on the Pats that they didn't in week 17. Maybe they changed their defensive calls and the Patriots were unable to compensate without an unfair advantage.... just throwing it out there.Just seems, NE had an advantage by being able to recognize the defense in advance - now all of the sudden they get dominated by a defense? Hmmm...I sorta think they never stopped taping... and the Giants protected themselves in the SB from the spying, and that's partially why they were so successful.

Ive heard or read that spagnola stated they did not use 2/3rd of their blitz packages for the first patriot game.

 

[Kit Fisto]

Think about it, if you're a Pats fan, you're going to have to deal with this whole thing anytime highlights of 2001, 2004, or 2005 come on the tube, and there are any non-Pats fans around. That's going to completely suck. Oof.

Um, no, not really. My friends and associates (non-Pats fans included) aren't internet trolls on moral high horses.Some of you guys really want us all to go out into the streets and burn our Brady jerseys and Belichick hoodies. Ain't gonna happen. I was born a Patriot fan, I was a Pats fan when they sucked, I'm a Pats season ticket holder now, and I'll be a Pats fan for the rest of my life, regardless of anything Belichick did or didn't do, or the opinions of children hiding behind their keyboards.

Deal.

 

[jonessed]

Since 2000? Wow. Goodell kept that well under wraps. Doesn't look like he was very forthcoming until pressed. If a copy of any of those tapes that he destroyed comes to light he is toast. There is obviously more on there, or he wouldn't have destroyed them. Tough to say if there are copies though. I imagine they were thorough.

 

[The foo]

Think about it, if you're a Pats fan, you're going to have to deal with this whole thing anytime highlights of 2001, 2004, or 2005 come on the tube, and there are any non-Pats fans around. That's going to completely suck. Oof.

Um, no, not really. My friends and associates (non-Pats fans included) aren't internet trolls on moral high horses.Some of you guys really want us all to go out into the streets and burn our Brady jerseys and Belichick hoodies. Ain't gonna happen. I was born a Patriot fan, I was a Pats fan when they sucked, I'm a Pats season ticket holder now, and I'll be a Pats fan for the rest of my life, regardless of anything Belichick did or didn't do, or the opinions of children hiding behind their keyboards.

Deal.

 

[fluorescent walkway]

Think about it, if you're a Pats fan, you're going to have to deal with this whole thing anytime highlights of 2001, 2004, or 2005 come on the tube, and there are any non-Pats fans around. That's going to completely suck. Oof.

Um, no, not really. My friends and associates (non-Pats fans included) aren't internet trolls on moral high horses.Some of you guys really want us all to go out into the streets and burn our Brady jerseys and Belichick hoodies. Ain't gonna happen. I was born a Patriot fan, I was a Pats fan when they sucked, I'm a Pats season ticket holder now, and I'll be a Pats fan for the rest of my life, regardless of anything Belichick did or didn't do, or the opinions of children hiding behind their keyboards.

Deal.

loledit - I was just trying for a little empathy there. I think I speak for everyone here (and especially the harder-core haters) when I tell you that we hope that you *don't* go out and burn your Brady jerseys and Belichick hoodies.

 

[{Syrus}]

Think about it, if you're a Pats fan, you're going to have to deal with this whole thing anytime highlights of 2001, 2004, or 2005 come on the tube, and there are any non-Pats fans around. That's going to completely suck. Oof.

Um, no, not really. My friends and associates (non-Pats fans included) aren't internet trolls on moral high horses.Some of you guys really want us all to go out into the streets and burn our Brady jerseys and Belichick hoodies. Ain't gonna happen. I was born a Patriot fan, I was a Pats fan when they sucked, I'm a Pats season ticket holder now, and I'll be a Pats fan for the rest of my life, regardless of anything Belichick did or didn't do, or the opinions of children hiding behind their keyboards.

Deal.

loledit - I was just trying for a little empathy there. I think I speak for everyone here (and especially the harder-core haters) when I tell you that we hope that you *don't* go out and burn your Brady jerseys and Belichick hoodies.

I certainly hope Pats fans dont burn their jerseys and hoodies. Then we'd all miss out on the fun of pointing and laughing everytime we see some Pats fan. Everyone, point and laugh at Pats fans.

 

[Filthy]

2000-2007 Birth of A Dynasty. Albeit a cheating Dynasty but a Dynasty nonetheless. *

Let's all pray for the sane Patriot fans out there (short list) that Belichick will be fired and they can move on. Anyone bring their rosary beads?

 

[phthalatemagic]

I'm not making any assumptions that I know of. I have no interest in posting links for those of you who want to call my statements into question. The information is readily available. I'm done. Have a nice day.

I think you should emotionally divest yourself in this subject

 

[phthalatemagic]

wasn't that long ago, but still pertinant

 

[AnonymousBob]

I'm sure there were other teams cheating as well. Since when does that make things okay? If you were the coach of your son's sports team, would you encourage cheating because some other team did it?

People that are somehow justifying what the Patriots have done by claiming they weren't the only ones taping things are ridiculous. No true New England fan should stop rooting for their team simply because of this very public black eye, but if you're a Patriots fan and you're not absolutely ashamed of how your team achieved its victories then I really don't know what to say to you other than we clearly have different standards.

For some people, they'll attack your team simply because they dislike the New England franchise. I'm not a fan of the Patriots but I don't really have any issue with them (aside from the cheating).

 

[{Syrus}]

I think it's an embarrassment that even with their cheating ways, NE could never win a Superbowl by more than three points. That's like cheating on a test and passing with a 71.

 

[hitmenssharpshooters]

I'm sure there were other teams cheating as well. Since when does that make things okay? If you were the coach of your son's sports team, would you encourage cheating because some other team did it?People that are somehow justifying what the Patriots have done by claiming they weren't the only ones taping things are ridiculous. No true New England fan should stop rooting for their team simply because of this very public black eye, but if you're a Patriots fan and you're not absolutely ashamed of how your team achieved its victories then I really don't know what to say to you other than we clearly have different standards.For some people, they'll attack your team simply because they dislike the New England franchise. I'm not a fan of the Patriots but I don't really have any issue with them (aside from the cheating).

it's like saying "I took steroids because everyone else is doing it.."

 

[AnonymousBob]

I think it's an embarrassment that even with their cheating ways, NE could never win a Superbowl by more than three points. That's like cheating on a test and passing with a 71.

A win is a win.

 

[AsimoV]

I was born a Patriot fan, I was a Pats fan when they sucked, I'm a Pats season ticket holder now, and I'll be a Pats fan for the rest of my life

That's okay, it's not your fault.

 

[{Syrus}]

I was born a Patriot fan, I was a Pats fan when they sucked, I'm a Pats season ticket holder now, and I'll be a Pats fan for the rest of my life

That's okay, it's not your fault.

Must suck to be a fan of the Patriots, a team that is a laughing stock and will always be. The Patriots will always have that cheating stigma just like Richard Nixon had that stigma around him the rest of his life.

 

[Filthy]

wasn't that long ago, but still pertinant

Nice. Missed that the first time around. Thanks. Face it; if you're a Patriot fan defending Belichick and the Pats legacy at this point, you're looking worse than Clemens is these days.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

I'm sure there were other teams cheating as well. Since when does that make things okay? If you were the coach of your son's sports team, would you encourage cheating because some other team did it?People that are somehow justifying what the Patriots have done by claiming they weren't the only ones taping things are ridiculous. No true New England fan should stop rooting for their team simply because of this very public black eye, but if you're a Patriots fan and you're not absolutely ashamed of how your team achieved its victories then I really don't know what to say to you other than we clearly have different standards.For some people, they'll attack your team simply because they dislike the New England franchise. I'm not a fan of the Patriots but I don't really have any issue with them (aside from the cheating).

Should the 49ers and Broncos Dynasties be ashamed because of salary cap manipulation?Should the Steelers Dynasty be ashamed because of systematic use of steroids?Should the Cowboys Dynasty be ashamed because they videotaped defensive coaches?What team do you root for? I'll be happy to dig up some dirt for you...

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

I'm not making any assumptions that I know of. I have no interest in posting links for those of you who want to call my statements into question. The information is readily available. I'm done. Have a nice day.

I think you should emotionally divest yourself in this subject

That's good advice, and I'd like to follow it, but hypocricy offends me.

 

[BaBastage]

I agree. Now I wonder if "6 tapes" means 6 games as I initially took it to mean or does it mean that there could be 5 games on each tape and on those 6 tapes, it could encompass 30 games. Goddell definitely tried to sweep it under the rug and kept himself unavailable for comment hoping that everyone would move on and forget about it.

<begin geek>If you want to get specific, or push the envelop, who's to say what a "tape" is. Ultrium-LTO-4 backup tapes have an advertised 1600 gig (compressed) capacity. 6 of those would give you almost TEN TERABYTES of data. Even straight DVD-Grade video, that's 5,000+ hours*. So technically, the number of tapes is irrelevant in this discussion. I can see it now:Goodell: "So, Billy, how many of them games' you got?"Bellichick: "All of 'em."Goodell: "Hmm. That's gonna look bad. Why don't you copy them all onto 6 of those backup-thingy's and we'll tell the world you only got 6 tapes."</end geek>* (I'm not a video compression guru. My math is based on a standard 4.8 Gig DVD holding a 2.5 hour movie. I'm sure someone geekier out there can provide a dissertation on the technical details, but probably to strengthen, not weaken, my point.)

 

[NY/NJMFDIVER]

Pittsburgh fan here and realistically I can't see Goddell vacating the Patriots' 3 Superbowl wins but that's EXACTLY what alot of people (myself included) want to see happen. Sounds harsh but when they only won by 3 points each time and arguably shouldn't have been there to begin with, it's a fair punishment.

Since the Jets game, I have despised Bill Belichick and have grown to despise the Patriots. To the sociable, moderate Patriot fans out there; I feel for you. The team you've supported and thought of as a great, dominate team will live under the shadow of this for years to come and most people will never accept any of your accomplishments under Bill B. as anything but tainted.

Bill Belichick = * genius

Tom Brady = * great QB

Patriots = * great dynasty with 3 SB wins

Let me take you back to that AFCC game in Jan. '05. You remember how that went down? Jerome fumbling early in the game? Video aided? Ya think? How bout those 3 Roethlisberger picks, one returned for a TD? The rookie QB who threw 2 picks the week before? Four turnovers by your O, a critical fumble by your HOF icon RB, and shaky rookie QB play, and somehow knowing Pittsburgh's DEFENSIVE signals could have made that happen? They lost that day because they turned the ball over on offense 4 times. Lump 'em all together if you want. But they lost that day to a better team. Video had nothing to do with it. The taint will apply to whoever chooses. So, continue with your despising. But cheating had nothing more to do with that loss than it did with the 2nd game you played this year against Jacksonville. They lost to a better team each time.

Wow, ya think maybe just maybe the Patriots not only recorded Pitt's DEFENSIVE signals, but also their OFFENSIVE signals? See, that's the rub here. When you're caught cheating, ALL of your actions (whether honest or not) are called into question. I'm sure that the majority of NFL fans out there that aren't Patriot homers realize Bill B. taped more than just the DEFENSIVE signals especially since he did so against the Rams before that Superbowl. Try sunblock instead of burying your head in the sand.

Sadly, the taint which you refer to would apparently not apply if the Patriots had simply placed a scout in the stands to take notes of the defensive playcalling rather than putting a videocamera on the sideline. Sort of makes your arguments look like horse####.

No it wouldn't thats kind of the rub here, Senor. If the QB calls the play too loud in the huddle, and the defense hears it and is able to do something with it, shame on the QB, but if the field is mic'ed or the lockerroom is bugged or the O coordinator playcall frequency is hacked and eavesdropped on, its the TECHNOLOGY which is the diffference.If the Pats had been able to make the read of the Rams goaline O during the game or even from the eye in the sky, then its a good job and good preparation, if you videotape before, the technological bridge thus makes it cheating.

Its basically the same principles of insider trading.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

I'm sure there were other teams cheating as well. Since when does that make things okay? If you were the coach of your son's sports team, would you encourage cheating because some other team did it?People that are somehow justifying what the Patriots have done by claiming they weren't the only ones taping things are ridiculous. No true New England fan should stop rooting for their team simply because of this very public black eye, but if you're a Patriots fan and you're not absolutely ashamed of how your team achieved its victories then I really don't know what to say to you other than we clearly have different standards.For some people, they'll attack your team simply because they dislike the New England franchise. I'm not a fan of the Patriots but I don't really have any issue with them (aside from the cheating).

Should the 49ers and Broncos Dynasties be ashamed because of salary cap manipulation?Should the Steelers Dynasty be ashamed because of systematic use of steroids?Should the Cowboys Dynasty be ashamed because they videotaped defensive coaches?What team do you root for? I'll be happy to dig up some dirt for you...

lol any of these teams get the punishment that pats did?LOLCheat, get caught, pay the price