I don't mind seeing Marino lose some records (1 Viewer)

[CletiusMaximus]

Records are fun. Given the way football has evolved with longer seasons, evolving rules, and quantum leaps in medical care they are often irrelevant, but interesting to talk about none the less.The record I never thought I'd see fall was Hornung's single season scoring record.

DW - you can take solice in the fact that Hornung did it in 12 games, while it took LT2 14. I think an asterisk is appropriate here.

 

[dparker713]

Montana played in the weaker of the two conferences for 15 seasons and could only get his team to the Super Bowl once. Elway was able to get inferior Broncos teams to the Super Bowl 3 times in the 1980's; Bledsoe and O'Donnell each did it once during Marino's career. Sorry but he's an underachiever, and I say that also asserting that he was a great QB.

I've always felt that Dan guarded his legacy a bit jealously. It's no surprise though - his stats are all he has.

BTW, I just had to link this again.

Im guessing you mean Marino.Elway's Broncos teams were hardly inferior to the Dolphins during that time. Maybe they were inferior to the Browns a couple of times, but the Denver defense was always one of the better units in the league, and Elway's trio of receivers were above average as well.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I think SB's can only be a fair measure of somebody when they were the main reason for the win, or if their poor play was the main reason for the loss or the missing out of going to one. Like if Steve Young would not have won a super bowl i think it could have been a knock against him because year in and year out he had a chance to win. If Favre would have played poorly in both Super Bowls it could have been a knock against him as well.

Brady's first Super Bowl really wasnt indicative of his greatness. However his second and third SBs were. Montana was a monster in the SB.

Elway was mediocre in his SB appearances and they do not define his career.

Marino's teams were consistently good, but i don't remember his teams being dominant, and i dont think he held them back. He also had to compete with some darn fine other QBs during his time. Montana, Aikman, Favre, and Elway. I dont think in any one of those years that those QBs won their SBs that anybody would ever say that the Dolphins were a better team and SHOULD have won. Even Kelly's Bills would certainly have been considered better teams in those years.

 

[Case Ace]

Barry Bonds (Don't take steroids into account) might be the best baseball player ever, but you never hear people say oh but he never won a worl series.

Baseball is an individual sport as far as team play much more than football when speaking of greats and tying them to team success. Football is a team sport to the degree that all moving parts must form one motion while baseball is a non-linear accumulation of individual play on a stage where the athlete often stands alone. If the guy in front of you strikes out with the bases loaded there was nothing you could do as an individual to prevent that. In football if someone misses a key block the tailback might be able to save the play. If the linebacker misses a tackle the safety will be there to make sure the guy doesn't take it to the house. Football is a game of team play more so than any other major professional sport in the U.S. In all the others, individual play and performance is more important to the outcome of the game. That said the most important individual position in all of sports is the quarterback. It is the only position that is a focal point of every single play thus making it unique to the sport, and really unique to sports as a whole. The performance of this position eclipses all others by a wide margin when we are talking about the accountability of winning. This is because football is a team game with essentially one position of extreme importance instead of a more individual game like baseball where the achievements of one lend to the whole. With the exception of just a few, most Super Bowl teams have had an effective player at QB if not someone who was outstanding. They may have not been outstanding for a career, but they put together one year or just a few games to lead their team to victory. I think the one glaring example is Trent Dilfer who although never did anything spectacular, did what the team asked him to by not turning it over and leaving the bulk of the work for an amazing defense and a solid running game. Dilfer still executed his work to near perfection, and even though his role seemed small he actually played the perfect individual game at the hardest individual position for the benefit of his team.

The QB has in general control over 1/2 to 1/3 of the plays in the game, not every play of a game. There are also special teams and defense dont forget. Your argument makes no sense. I agree the football requires the most amount of people working together to achieve success, but that leads to the conclusion that a QB is LESS important than a pitcher or a hockey goalie. With 10 other guys around him, you have significant places to hide a QBs deficiencies. If the pitcher or goalie sucks, you only have the option to pull them.

QBs certainly have more control over the outcome of a game than any other player on a football field (especially when they called the plays), but they can never single handedly dominate a playoffs like a hockey goalie or even a starting pitcher can.

If you put any great QB on a horrendous team like the Texans, none of them would win the Super Bowl with that bunch. Football is the most team game of any sport, therefore the level of talent on the team needs to be high to even have a shot at winning the Super Bowl. And the level of talent on the team is completely out of the control of the QB or any player.

For this reason, Super Bowl titles are a poor means of determining the best of all time at the position. Or did I miss Montana sacking Phil Simms at some point?

No position in football can be the most important position in sports b/c there are so many more players in football. The QB is only 1 of 11 players on the field & plays approximately 40% of the game. Jordan (or whoever) is 1 of only 5 players & is on the court for virtually the entire game. The QB is the most important position in football b/c the other positions are equally diluted. The QB isn't, however, the most important position in sports.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Peyton is going to break most of Marino's records anyway. He and Dan can enjoy all their great commercials and records while everyone else wins rings. That's what the game comes down to. Mark Rypien has a ring and Marino doesn't. Trent Dilfer has one, Peyton doesn't. Just sayin'.

I didn't go any further into the thread after I read this post. Let's not forget DD that if all the players that thought they couldn't win a ring decided to quit...there would be no league, period. Rypien may have a ring but he's not a memorable QB. He didn't make the money that marino did and continues to do. Sure, he has a ring. It's a piece of jewelry, it matters, but you can have one made if it really burns you that bad. I have respect for those that won rings, but is Montana, Aikman, Brady, Bradshaw...were those guys better fundamental QBs than Marino? Not many could get the ball out quicker than Marino. No one else he played along side with is going into the HoF...no WR, no RB, nothing on defense...he was the entire Miami Dolphins team for many many seasons. All Miami fans will tell you that. Aikman has 3 rings but several of his team mates will go into the HoF.Montana played with an extraordinary organization in the 80's in the SF 49ers. Bradshaw has 4 rings but look at the team that was around him.Brady...I actually have a ton of respect for this guy. Not sure anyone else on his team is a shoe in for the HoF...if you think of some, please post. My point is you shouldn't disrespect a player simply because of a ring. Lots of great players simply never had the opp to win a ring and be on a good team. Barry Sanders, Dan Marino, Tim Brown, those guys were all amazing at their positions, maybe they even played in a SB...but they simply didn't have the pieces of the puzzle around them to make it happen.Lots of HoF inductees do not have rings. It shouldn't make them any less of a player. I would take marino and pair him with Jerry Rice, Marvin Harrison, Emmitt Smith, the 2000 Ravens defense...you get the idea. And to the original poster...Joe, I'm surprised you started this thread, but everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. I have always liked Brett Favre and even as a Phinsfan, I would like to see Marino's records stand but Favre is/was an awesome QB and if someone has to take down Marino's records, Favre is a good choice.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Marino in a WCO would have been something special back in the day. Probably as accurate and a better arm than Montana.

I don't think that Marino had enough mobility to do well in a WCO. I would have liked to see him QB the Rams during the Martz era. If Warner could look like Marino, what would Marino have looked like?

 

[redman]

Marino in a WCO would have been something special back in the day. Probably as accurate and a better arm than Montana.

I don't think that Marino had enough mobility to do well in a WCO. I would have liked to see him QB the Rams during the Martz era. If Warner could like like Marino, what would Marino have looked like?

Either that or in Gibbs' one-back offense during that era. That system allwed Jay Schroeder and Mark Rypien put up big passing numbers (not to mention guys like Sean Salisbury in Minny when Dennis Green implemented it there too). I'd love to have seen Marino in that system.

 

[Tau837]

Records are fun. Given the way football has evolved with longer seasons, evolving rules, and quantum leaps in medical care they are often irrelevant, but interesting to talk about none the less.The record I never thought I'd see fall was Hornung's single season scoring record.

DW - you can take solice in the fact that Hornung did it in 12 games, while it took LT2 14. I think an asterisk is appropriate here.

Can't tell if you are joking about that... IMO there are enough other changes that could reasonably be viewed as making it more difficult for a current player (e.g., better defensive coaching, higher quality players on defense, more travel, more intensive media coverage) that no asterisk is needed.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Barry Bonds (Don't take steroids into account) might be the best baseball player ever, but you never hear people say oh but he never won a worl series.

Baseball is an individual sport as far as team play much more than football when speaking of greats and tying them to team success. Football is a team sport to the degree that all moving parts must form one motion while baseball is a non-linear accumulation of individual play on a stage where the athlete often stands alone. If the guy in front of you strikes out with the bases loaded there was nothing you could do as an individual to prevent that. In football if someone misses a key block the tailback might be able to save the play. If the linebacker misses a tackle the safety will be there to make sure the guy doesn't take it to the house. Football is a game of team play more so than any other major professional sport in the U.S. In all the others, individual play and performance is more important to the outcome of the game. That said the most important individual position in all of sports is the quarterback. It is the only position that is a focal point of every single play thus making it unique to the sport, and really unique to sports as a whole. The performance of this position eclipses all others by a wide margin when we are talking about the accountability of winning. This is because football is a team game with essentially one position of extreme importance instead of a more individual game like baseball where the achievements of one lend to the whole. With the exception of just a few, most Super Bowl teams have had an effective player at QB if not someone who was outstanding. They may have not been outstanding for a career, but they put together one year or just a few games to lead their team to victory. I think the one glaring example is Trent Dilfer who although never did anything spectacular, did what the team asked him to by not turning it over and leaving the bulk of the work for an amazing defense and a solid running game. Dilfer still executed his work to near perfection, and even though his role seemed small he actually played the perfect individual game at the hardest individual position for the benefit of his team.

The QB has in general control over 1/2 to 1/3 of the plays in the game, not every play of a game. There are also special teams and defense dont forget. Your argument makes no sense. I agree the football requires the most amount of people working together to achieve success, but that leads to the conclusion that a QB is LESS important than a pitcher or a hockey goalie. With 10 other guys around him, you have significant places to hide a QBs deficiencies. If the pitcher or goalie sucks, you only have the option to pull them.

Well you have 11 or 12 pitchers in baseball per team so there goes that argument. Position-wise you are correct but the application hasn't been there in 30 years. Also how much does a hockey goalie have to prepare for a playoff game? Is he calling plays, controlling a huddle, or looking at coverages? No, he is reacting to the game and using his physical ability and focusing to do just one thing: stop the puck. Much easier position to play and it's not even close. A QB is attacking, managing, and thinking things through at a level...on a stage that is unparrarled in following or complexity. I mean I'm beginning to think you feel football is an easy game to play.

QBs certainly have more control over the outcome of a game than any other player on a football field (especially when they called the plays), but they can never single handedly dominate a playoffs like a hockey goalie or even a starting pitcher can.

Pitcher again is a bad example. Are you telling me that Kenny Rogers domination in this years playoff led to a title? Guy can only pitch once every five days. Bad analogy. The hockey goalie is a lot about streaks and if you don't think defense comes into play with the five other guys who are on the ice you must not be a hockey fan. Chris Osgood got hot in 1998, but he wasn't the most important player on his team during the playoff run. The Parick Roys of the world are few and very far between and I can't remember the last time a goalie had a hatrick.

For this reason, Super Bowl titles are a poor means of determining the best of all time at the position. Or did I miss Montana sacking Phil Simms at some point

?A lot of people who have played will disagree and a lot of people who know the game will also. You are entitled to your opinion. I believe this is still Canada we live in.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Peyton is going to break most of Marino's records anyway. He and Dan can enjoy all their great commercials and records while everyone else wins rings. That's what the game comes down to. Mark Rypien has a ring and Marino doesn't. Trent Dilfer has one, Peyton doesn't. Just sayin'.

I didn't go any further into the thread after I read this post. Let's not forget DD that if all the players that thought they couldn't win a ring decided to quit...there would be no league, period. Rypien may have a ring but he's not a memorable QB. He didn't make the money that marino did and continues to do. Sure, he has a ring. It's a piece of jewelry, it matters, but you can have one made if it really burns you that bad. I have respect for those that won rings, but is Montana, Aikman, Brady, Bradshaw...were those guys better fundamental QBs than Marino? Not many could get the ball out quicker than Marino. No one else he played along side with is going into the HoF...no WR, no RB, nothing on defense...he was the entire Miami Dolphins team for many many seasons. All Miami fans will tell you that. Aikman has 3 rings but several of his team mates will go into the HoF.Montana played with an extraordinary organization in the 80's in the SF 49ers. Bradshaw has 4 rings but look at the team that was around him.Brady...I actually have a ton of respect for this guy. Not sure anyone else on his team is a shoe in for the HoF...if you think of some, please post. My point is you shouldn't disrespect a player simply because of a ring. Lots of great players simply never had the opp to win a ring and be on a good team. Barry Sanders, Dan Marino, Tim Brown, those guys were all amazing at their positions, maybe they even played in a SB...but they simply didn't have the pieces of the puzzle around them to make it happen.Lots of HoF inductees do not have rings. It shouldn't make them any less of a player. I would take marino and pair him with Jerry Rice, Marvin Harrison, Emmitt Smith, the 2000 Ravens defense...you get the idea. And to the original poster...Joe, I'm surprised you started this thread, but everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. I have always liked Brett Favre and even as a Phinsfan, I would like to see Marino's records stand but Favre is/was an awesome QB and if someone has to take down Marino's records, Favre is a good choice.

I had some posts arguing my point and you picked this one? Come on MOP. Give me something to work with here.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Barry Bonds (Don't take steroids into account) might be the best baseball player ever, but you never hear people say oh but he never won a worl series.

Baseball is an individual sport as far as team play much more than football when speaking of greats and tying them to team success. Football is a team sport to the degree that all moving parts must form one motion while baseball is a non-linear accumulation of individual play on a stage where the athlete often stands alone. If the guy in front of you strikes out with the bases loaded there was nothing you could do as an individual to prevent that. In football if someone misses a key block the tailback might be able to save the play. If the linebacker misses a tackle the safety will be there to make sure the guy doesn't take it to the house. Football is a game of team play more so than any other major professional sport in the U.S. In all the others, individual play and performance is more important to the outcome of the game. That said the most important individual position in all of sports is the quarterback. It is the only position that is a focal point of every single play thus making it unique to the sport, and really unique to sports as a whole. The performance of this position eclipses all others by a wide margin when we are talking about the accountability of winning. This is because football is a team game with essentially one position of extreme importance instead of a more individual game like baseball where the achievements of one lend to the whole. With the exception of just a few, most Super Bowl teams have had an effective player at QB if not someone who was outstanding. They may have not been outstanding for a career, but they put together one year or just a few games to lead their team to victory. I think the one glaring example is Trent Dilfer who although never did anything spectacular, did what the team asked him to by not turning it over and leaving the bulk of the work for an amazing defense and a solid running game. Dilfer still executed his work to near perfection, and even though his role seemed small he actually played the perfect individual game at the hardest individual position for the benefit of his team.

The QB has in general control over 1/2 to 1/3 of the plays in the game, not every play of a game. There are also special teams and defense dont forget. Your argument makes no sense. I agree the football requires the most amount of people working together to achieve success, but that leads to the conclusion that a QB is LESS important than a pitcher or a hockey goalie. With 10 other guys around him, you have significant places to hide a QBs deficiencies. If the pitcher or goalie sucks, you only have the option to pull them.

QBs certainly have more control over the outcome of a game than any other player on a football field (especially when they called the plays), but they can never single handedly dominate a playoffs like a hockey goalie or even a starting pitcher can.

If you put any great QB on a horrendous team like the Texans, none of them would win the Super Bowl with that bunch. Football is the most team game of any sport, therefore the level of talent on the team needs to be high to even have a shot at winning the Super Bowl. And the level of talent on the team is completely out of the control of the QB or any player.

For this reason, Super Bowl titles are a poor means of determining the best of all time at the position. Or did I miss Montana sacking Phil Simms at some point?

The QB isn't, however, the most important position in sports.

What is? I'll hang up and listen.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Barry Bonds (Don't take steroids into account) might be the best baseball player ever, but you never hear people say oh but he never won a worl series.

Baseball is an individual sport as far as team play much more than football when speaking of greats and tying them to team success. Football is a team sport to the degree that all moving parts must form one motion while baseball is a non-linear accumulation of individual play on a stage where the athlete often stands alone. If the guy in front of you strikes out with the bases loaded there was nothing you could do as an individual to prevent that. In football if someone misses a key block the tailback might be able to save the play. If the linebacker misses a tackle the safety will be there to make sure the guy doesn't take it to the house. Football is a game of team play more so than any other major professional sport in the U.S. In all the others, individual play and performance is more important to the outcome of the game. That said the most important individual position in all of sports is the quarterback. It is the only position that is a focal point of every single play thus making it unique to the sport, and really unique to sports as a whole. The performance of this position eclipses all others by a wide margin when we are talking about the accountability of winning. This is because football is a team game with essentially one position of extreme importance instead of a more individual game like baseball where the achievements of one lend to the whole. With the exception of just a few, most Super Bowl teams have had an effective player at QB if not someone who was outstanding. They may have not been outstanding for a career, but they put together one year or just a few games to lead their team to victory. I think the one glaring example is Trent Dilfer who although never did anything spectacular, did what the team asked him to by not turning it over and leaving the bulk of the work for an amazing defense and a solid running game. Dilfer still executed his work to near perfection, and even though his role seemed small he actually played the perfect individual game at the hardest individual position for the benefit of his team.

The QB has in general control over 1/2 to 1/3 of the plays in the game, not every play of a game. There are also special teams and defense dont forget. Your argument makes no sense. I agree the football requires the most amount of people working together to achieve success, but that leads to the conclusion that a QB is LESS important than a pitcher or a hockey goalie. With 10 other guys around him, you have significant places to hide a QBs deficiencies. If the pitcher or goalie sucks, you only have the option to pull them.

Well you have 11 or 12 pitchers in baseball per team so there goes that argument. Position-wise you are correct but the application hasn't been there in 30 years. Also how much does a hockey goalie have to prepare for a playoff game? Is he calling plays, controlling a huddle, or looking at coverages? No, he is reacting to the game and using his physical ability and focusing to do just one thing: stop the puck. Much easier position to play and it's not even close. A QB is attacking, managing, and thinking things through at a level...on a stage that is unparrarled in following or complexity. I mean I'm beginning to think you feel football is an easy game to play.

QBs certainly have more control over the outcome of a game than any other player on a football field (especially when they called the plays), but they can never single handedly dominate a playoffs like a hockey goalie or even a starting pitcher can.

Pitcher again is a bad example. Are you telling me that Kenny Rogers domination in this years playoff led to a title? Guy can only pitch once every five days. Bad analogy. The hockey goalie is a lot about streaks and if you don't think defense comes into play with the five other guys who are on the ice you must not be a hockey fan. Chris Osgood got hot in 1998, but he wasn't the most important player on his team during the playoff run. The Parick Roys of the world are few and very far between and I can't remember the last time a goalie had a hatrick.

For this reason, Super Bowl titles are a poor means of determining the best of all time at the position. Or did I miss Montana sacking Phil Simms at some point

?A lot of people who have played will disagree and a lot of people who know the game will also. You are entitled to your opinion. I believe this is still Canada we live in.

you dont think hockey goalies have to study and watch film? You think there is no value to be had by knowing how an offense lines up and what players tendencies are? A hockey goalie does not just sit there and react to the puck. Have you ever played hockey? I dare you to go and hit the other teams goalie and then tell me how unimportant he is to his teammates as you look up at all of them from your back.Having two stud pitchers in baseball can win you a world series. Randy Johnson and Shilling did it. Pitching always beats hitting. Ask the yankees. How often does a starting pitcher have a bad game and his team win in the world series vs how often does a qb have a bad game and his team win the super bowl? Pretty comparable i bet. How often did the bulls win if jordan had less than 25? 30 even? How often do you think a team wins a stanley cup game when their goalie has a bad night?

 

[johnnyfb]

Speaking of Marino's records being broken by Manning, I think that Peyton has surpassed Marino's commercial obligations as a professional player. People who give Manning a lot of flak for his uber-commercial presence don't often remember that Dan Marino was the modern role model for this kind of activity. He was even mocked for doing so during Ace Ventura.

Finally, I'll say it again: Favre is not in the same category as Manning and Marino. Favre led teams to playoff victories and Super Bowls. Manning and Marino make great fantasy football players.

 

[dparker713]

The QB has in general control over 1/2 to 1/3 of the plays in the game, not every play of a game. There are also special teams and defense dont forget. Your argument makes no sense. I agree the football requires the most amount of people working together to achieve success, but that leads to the conclusion that a QB is LESS important than a pitcher or a hockey goalie. With 10 other guys around him, you have significant places to hide a QBs deficiencies. If the pitcher or goalie sucks, you only have the option to pull them.

Well you have 11 or 12 pitchers in baseball per team so there goes that argument. Position-wise you are correct but the application hasn't been there in 30 years. Also how much does a hockey goalie have to prepare for a playoff game? Is he calling plays, controlling a huddle, or looking at coverages? No, he is reacting to the game and using his physical ability and focusing to do just one thing: stop the puck. Much easier position to play and it's not even close. A QB is attacking, managing, and thinking things through at a level...on a stage that is unparrarled in following or complexity. I mean I'm beginning to think you feel football is an easy game to play.

Some hockey goalies rely mostly on freakish atheletic ability, where as some rely on fundamentals and execution to dominate. Hasek v. Brodeur. CPep v. Peyton. And if you dont think the phyiscal conditioning of a hockey goalie is more strenous then a QB, how about you try losing 10 pounds of sweat every other night and see how atheletic you feel after a month.And please, lets not elevate a QB to rocket scientist level. They must process a limited amount of information quickly. Its a skill some are better at then others.

QBs certainly have more control over the outcome of a game than any other player on a football field (especially when they called the plays), but they can never single handedly dominate a playoffs like a hockey goalie or even a starting pitcher can.

Pitcher again is a bad example. Are you telling me that Kenny Rogers domination in this years playoff led to a title? Guy can only pitch once every five days. Bad analogy. The hockey goalie is a lot about streaks and if you don't think defense comes into play with the five other guys who are on the ice you must not be a hockey fan. Chris Osgood got hot in 1998, but he wasn't the most important player on his team during the playoff run. The Parick Roys of the world are few and very far between and I can't remember the last time a goalie had a hatrick.

Truly dominant pitchers will start 3 times in 7 total games or 2 times in 5 games. During those starts they can nearly by themselves win the game. Just take a look at Jack Morris in 1991, or Shilling or The Unit in 2001. Morris himself handed the Twins that series on a silver platter. He pitched TEN shutout inning in game 7. If you actually watch hockey, how can you doubt that the goalie is more important then a QB in a playoff run. A goalie can mask so many of the deficiencies of a team when they are just unbeatable. Or did you think the 1999 Sabres could have even sniffed the finals without the incredible play of Hasek?Beyond these examples, would you claim that a QB is more important that an NBA player, when he's 1 of 5 people on the court for more or less a whole game? In other words, is a QB more than 20% of the reason any given team wins a Super Bowl?

For this reason, Super Bowl titles are a poor means of determining the best of all time at the position. Or did I miss Montana sacking Phil Simms at some point

?A lot of people who have played will disagree and a lot of people who know the game will also. You are entitled to your opinion. I believe this is still Canada we live in.

Since this is America, you're entitled to cling to a wrong opinion as much as you want.

 

[Marc Levin]

BTW, I just had to link this again.

I love Marino, but !!!that's a good one.

 

[redman]

BTW, I just had to link this again.

I love Marino, but !!!that's a good one.

Boomer: "And I think that Peyton Manning is this generation's . . . Dan Marino . . .

Dan: What?

Boomer: . . . He's a great player but I'm tellin' ya' he's not getting to the Super Bowl, not with that defense-

Dan: Oh, wait, wait, wait! I got to a Super Bowl! I got to a Super Bowl!

Boomer: But you know what I mean. There's too much pressure on Peyton Manning to be perfect every week, just like you had to be. That's just not fair to him . . .

Dan:

Audience:

I particularly love watching Sharpe and Gumbel try to keep the peace there.

 

[commisholio]

I never thought Marino was that good.

Ya right........probably think Emmitt Smith was an average back with a good line too.

No, a very good back with an all-time great line, more like it...

 

[kbell025]

Boomer: "And I think that Peyton Manning is this generation's . . . Dan Marino . . . Dan: What? Boomer: . . . He's a great player but I'm tellin' ya' he's not getting to the Super Bowl, not with that defense- Dan: Oh, wait, wait, wait! I got to a Super Bowl! I got to a Super Bowl! Boomer: But you know what I mean. There's too much pressure on Peyton Manning to be perfect every week, just like you had to be. That's just not fair to him . . . Dan: Audience: I particularly love watching Sharpe and Gumbel try to keep the peace there.

To Marino's credit, the one thing that Manning had that marino never had and that was a runningback. E. James helped Manning out in so many ways and Dan never had that luxurey. Not taking anything away from Elway a damn good qb, But the runninggame helped him get his 2 superbowl rings and if it wasn't for them he may of never got them.

 

[Bri]

I believe the "no one else" is referring to when they needed a defensive stop or a key 4th and 1 run, the others didn't come thru. I don't think that's so wrong.

Well, unless Marino completed every pass and led his team to a TD on every posession in a game where the defense couldn't get a "key defensive stop on 4th and 1" then I think its completely foolish to absolve him of blame for the teams losses, yet give him sole credit for its wins.

I thought the notion was he won inspite of the D and running game

 

[redman]

Boomer: "And I think that Peyton Manning is this generation's . . . Dan Marino . . .

Dan: What?

Boomer: . . . He's a great player but I'm tellin' ya' he's not getting to the Super Bowl, not with that defense-

Dan: Oh, wait, wait, wait! I got to a Super Bowl! I got to a Super Bowl!

Boomer: But you know what I mean. There's too much pressure on Peyton Manning to be perfect every week, just like you had to be. That's just not fair to him . . .

Dan:

Audience:

I particularly love watching Sharpe and Gumbel try to keep the peace there.

To Marino's credit, the one thing that Manning had that marino never had and that was a runningback. E. James helped Manning out in so many ways and Dan never had that luxurey.

Dan, however, is a happy-go-lucky sort who never lets that type of thing get to him.

 

[switz]

I never thought Marino was that good.

Ya right........probably think Emmitt Smith was an average back with a good line too.

Huh? What does Marino have to do with Emmitt?

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Peyton is going to break most of Marino's records anyway. He and Dan can enjoy all their great commercials and records while everyone else wins rings. That's what the game comes down to. Mark Rypien has a ring and Marino doesn't. Trent Dilfer has one, Peyton doesn't. Just sayin'.

I didn't go any further into the thread after I read this post. Let's not forget DD that if all the players that thought they couldn't win a ring decided to quit...there would be no league, period. Rypien may have a ring but he's not a memorable QB. He didn't make the money that marino did and continues to do. Sure, he has a ring. It's a piece of jewelry, it matters, but you can have one made if it really burns you that bad. I have respect for those that won rings, but is Montana, Aikman, Brady, Bradshaw...were those guys better fundamental QBs than Marino? Not many could get the ball out quicker than Marino. No one else he played along side with is going into the HoF...no WR, no RB, nothing on defense...he was the entire Miami Dolphins team for many many seasons. All Miami fans will tell you that. Aikman has 3 rings but several of his team mates will go into the HoF.Montana played with an extraordinary organization in the 80's in the SF 49ers. Bradshaw has 4 rings but look at the team that was around him.Brady...I actually have a ton of respect for this guy. Not sure anyone else on his team is a shoe in for the HoF...if you think of some, please post. My point is you shouldn't disrespect a player simply because of a ring. Lots of great players simply never had the opp to win a ring and be on a good team. Barry Sanders, Dan Marino, Tim Brown, those guys were all amazing at their positions, maybe they even played in a SB...but they simply didn't have the pieces of the puzzle around them to make it happen.Lots of HoF inductees do not have rings. It shouldn't make them any less of a player. I would take marino and pair him with Jerry Rice, Marvin Harrison, Emmitt Smith, the 2000 Ravens defense...you get the idea. And to the original poster...Joe, I'm surprised you started this thread, but everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. I have always liked Brett Favre and even as a Phinsfan, I would like to see Marino's records stand but Favre is/was an awesome QB and if someone has to take down Marino's records, Favre is a good choice.

I had some posts arguing my point and you picked this one? Come on MOP. Give me something to work with here.

It was the 1st post I read and paused to think about. I ain't mad DD, you're credit is good at MOPLand, you should know that by now.

 

[marinolives13]

marinolives13: First off, whitespace is your friend.

Farve played with one of the best Receivers in the ninties until his career was cut short(Sterling Sharpe).

Favre played with Sharpe for his first 3 seasons in Green Bay. He has played 12 seasons since, mostly without any great WRs. Favre made guys like Robert Brooks, Antonio Freeman, and Bill Schroeder look good, but they were average. Driver is probably the second best WR Favre has played with, behind Sharpe.Meanwhile, it's not like Marino suffered from poor WRs. Ever hear of Mark Clayton and Mark Duper? Neither of them was as good as Sharpe, but Marino got to play with them for a combined 21 seasons, compared to the 3 seasons Favre got to play with Sharpe.

The Green Bay defense was filled with All pro's every year especially the years he won the MVP. The defense was incredible those years they were competing for the title with Reggie White, LEroy Butler, Darren Sharper, Seth Joyner, Bryce Paup(defensive player of the year) all these players were all pros and Hall Of Fame some will get in.

Here are the All Pros for Green Bay in Favre's 14 seasons in Green Bay (not including this season):1992 - WR Sharpe1993 - WR Sharpe, S Butler, K Jacke1995 - QB Favre, DE White1996 - QB Favre, S Butler, PR Howard1997 - QB Favre, S Butler, ST Jervey1998 - WR Freeman, DE White, S Butler, KR Preston2000 - S Sharper2004 - FB HendersonThat's a total of 4 on offense (not including Favre himself), 7 on defense, and 4 on special teams in 14 seasons.First of all, Favre's defense was not "filled with All Pros every year." Secondly, only 3 individual defensive players were All Pro in Favre's time in Green Bay, not 5, as you stated above--Joyner and Paup were never named All Pro in Green Bay. Paup played for Buffalo when he won the DPOY award and was named All Pro. Joyner was named All Pro twice while he played for Philly, but he only played one season for Green Bay, and it was the 12th season of his career, quite a bit removed from his prime.Finally, let's compare that list to the All Pros for Miami in Marino's 17 seasons:1983 - C Stephenson, DE Betters, NT Baumhower, KR Walker1984 - QB Marino, C Stephenson, G Newman, P Roby1985 - QB Marino, C Stephenson1986 - QB Marino, C Stephenson1987 - C Stephenson1990 - ILB Offerdahl1992 - T Webb, K Stoyanovich1994 - T Webb1998 - LB Thomas1999 - LB Thomas, CB Madison, K MareThat's a total of 8 on offense (not including Marino himself), 6 on defense, and 4 on special teams in 17 seasons. Looks pretty comparable to me.

Its comparable sort of, Butler and sharper were very good but the difference is the defensive end named REGGIE WHITE A DIFFERENCE MAKER COMPARED TO DAN'S HOF DWIGHT STEPHENSON. Wow, he had a punter in 84 with 2 offensive linemen who he helped make look good because he got ride of the ball so quickly. No defensive players until his last 2 years which were a complete disaster because of jimmy johnson trading down and not drafting randy Moss. Dan had a young defense in 98 and 99, but Johnson drafted three running backs who were all failures in the NFL.(JJ FROM MISS ST, ROB KONRAD,AND CECIL(I'LL ROB MY NEIGHBORS)COLLINS. Packers def were ranked in the top ten Favre's three mvp years and Marino had pathetic defenses. 147 wins i guess doesn't mean anything as far as being a winner. I think farve is top five but Marino is ahead of him. As far Paup , he was pretty damn good and I said he was a defensive player of the a year and Reggie WHITE IS THE BEST DEFENSIVE PLAYER EVER! Marino had 6 on defense yeah 2 players in his rookie year and zach thomas in his last 2 years. Not comparable at all because you don't mention how good either defensive team was ranked. Another thing is running back Bennett,Levens, and Ahman Green, Marino could only wish he had as many talented running backs. Bennett, Nathan, Hampton,Davenport, Sammie(fumbles)Smith, higgs, mr fedex parmelee, kareem abdul, and johnson are not going to be remembered by many people. Its a team game and Farve had better teams than Marino.

 

[switz]

Its a team game and Farve had better teams than Marino.

You know, people with a players name in their alias should be banned from postign in thread about such player.Favre had some pretty awful teams, and some players he made look REALLY good.Marino had some pretty awful teams too, and some he made look good as well.Still Favre is a better QB

 

[Joe Bryant]

I was at a golf outing in Naples Florida 5 years ago and Marino was there along with a few other celebs.Make no mistake....Marino is one arrogant SOB.

this is true. Marino quote: "don't you know who I am?" I have heard three independant first hand stories from people dealing with Marino where he utters this quote. The first one came from a woman who was a bartender @ Penn State - Marino tried sneaking into her bar, and she denied him access. "Don't you know who I am?" (side note: she dated Matt Millen at the time, Millen dumped her for her roommate, who Millen eventually married.)The second one came from my wife. When she was in HS, she worked at an ice-cream shop in Ft. Lauderdale. Marino decided that he was entitled to skip the line and head straight to the counter. "Don't you know who I am?"The third comes from a friend of mine who teaches at Marino's kids school. I don't remember the exact circumstance, but I remember her talking about him and that phrase came up.Bottom line is that While Marino might be involved in a hand full of charitable orginizations, he is far from a humble man and he is pretty much a jerk when dealing with regular people.

Very interesting moleculo. J

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

I am bothered by all of the Brett Favre hype on NFLN and ESPN. "Is Brett having fun?", etc. I admire the guy for what he's done, he is tough as nails both on and off the field...but...why has he become such an attention-getter at this point in his career? His team isn't good and clearly is partially responsible for that. He kind of reminds me of Cal Ripken in his later years...his game was clearly failing but he was still the poster boy for his sport.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Speaking of Marino's records being broken by Manning, I think that Peyton has surpassed Marino's commercial obligations as a professional player. People who give Manning a lot of flak for his uber-commercial presence don't often remember that Dan Marino was the modern role model for this kind of activity. He was even mocked for doing so during Ace Ventura.

Finally, I'll say it again: Favre is not in the same category as Manning and Marino. Favre led teams to playoff victories and Super Bowls. Manning and Marino make great fantasy football players.

Are you kidding? Why? Because Marino didn't single handedly win the SB with virtually no team around him. He did have a HOF Center in Dwight Stephenson who had a very short career and honestly was not a great run blocker...but he never allowed a sack. What an ignorant statement. I din't call you stupid, but that statement is ignorant on so many levels.

 

[Borat]

Dan Marino had defenses that ranked 1st, 7th, 12th, 26th, 17th, 24th, 22nd, 4th, 24th, 12th, 24th, 18th, 10th, 17th, 16th, 1st, and 19th in terms of points allowed.

That is an average finish of 15th in the league (not great, but not horrible), and it includes 7 top-12 seasons.

So let's stop pretending that Dan Marino's Dolphins never had a capable defense.

 

[dparker713]

Dan Marino had defenses that ranked 1st, 7th, 12th, 26th, 17th, 24th, 22nd, 4th, 24th, 12th, 24th, 18th, 10th, 17th, 16th, 1st, and 19th in terms of points allowed. That is an average finish of 15th in the league (not great, but not horrible), and it includes 7 top-12 seasons.So let's stop pretending that Dan Marino's Dolphins never had a capable defense.

First off, for a long stretch of that there were only 28 teams in the league. Second, take a look at the actual progression, not just the aggregate. 1st his rookie year. 7th his second year (they went to the SB). Then take 85-92 (93 he tore his achilles), that averages 17.6 out of 28. Leave out the 1993 season, and in the twilight of his career the defense posted a 15.25 average out of 28 for 4 years and then a 10th average out of 30 his final 2 years. His best defense in his prime was in 1990, when he was knocked out of the playoffs by the Buffalo Bills, who were the odds on favorite to win the SB once Phil Simms went down for the season. The remainder of his career he had mediocre or bad defenses according to your numbers. Lest not forget also that he never fully recovered from his achilles and by the time JJ stepped in the final 4 years, he was oft injured and not the same player he had been. Fact of the matter is, Elway gets a pass because his team suddenly became dominant in his twilight years due to a great running game and a strong defense, something JJ promised but never delivered. So now Marino is seen in a lesser light by some, which I find fairly silly when winning in the NFL requires so much more collaboration than any other sport.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Peyton is going to break most of Marino's records anyway. He and Dan can enjoy all their great commercials and records while everyone else wins rings. That's what the game comes down to. Mark Rypien has a ring and Marino doesn't. Trent Dilfer has one, Peyton doesn't. Just sayin'.

I didn't go any further into the thread after I read this post. Let's not forget DD that if all the players that thought they couldn't win a ring decided to quit...there would be no league, period. Rypien may have a ring but he's not a memorable QB. He didn't make the money that marino did and continues to do. Sure, he has a ring. It's a piece of jewelry, it matters, but you can have one made if it really burns you that bad. I have respect for those that won rings, but is Montana, Aikman, Brady, Bradshaw...were those guys better fundamental QBs than Marino? Not many could get the ball out quicker than Marino. No one else he played along side with is going into the HoF...no WR, no RB, nothing on defense...he was the entire Miami Dolphins team for many many seasons. All Miami fans will tell you that. Aikman has 3 rings but several of his team mates will go into the HoF.Montana played with an extraordinary organization in the 80's in the SF 49ers. Bradshaw has 4 rings but look at the team that was around him.Brady...I actually have a ton of respect for this guy. Not sure anyone else on his team is a shoe in for the HoF...if you think of some, please post. My point is you shouldn't disrespect a player simply because of a ring. Lots of great players simply never had the opp to win a ring and be on a good team. Barry Sanders, Dan Marino, Tim Brown, those guys were all amazing at their positions, maybe they even played in a SB...but they simply didn't have the pieces of the puzzle around them to make it happen.Lots of HoF inductees do not have rings. It shouldn't make them any less of a player. I would take marino and pair him with Jerry Rice, Marvin Harrison, Emmitt Smith, the 2000 Ravens defense...you get the idea. And to the original poster...Joe, I'm surprised you started this thread, but everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. I have always liked Brett Favre and even as a Phinsfan, I would like to see Marino's records stand but Favre is/was an awesome QB and if someone has to take down Marino's records, Favre is a good choice.

I had some posts arguing my point and you picked this one? Come on MOP. Give me something to work with here.

It was the 1st post I read and paused to think about. I ain't mad DD, you're credit is good at MOPLand, you should know that by now.

 

[Borat]

First off, for a long stretch of that there were only 28 teams in the league. Second, take a look at the actual progression, not just the aggregate. 1st his rookie year. 7th his second year (they went to the SB). Then take 85-92 (93 he tore his achilles), that averages 17.6 out of 28. Leave out the 1993 season, and in the twilight of his career the defense posted a 15.25 average out of 28 for 4 years and then a 10th average out of 30 his final 2 years.

Your breakdown:1st his rookie year

7th his second year

17.6 out of 28 for 8 years

15.25 out of 28 for 4 years

10th out of 30 for 2 years

Sorry, but that still really isn't all that bad. It's obviously not great, but it's not horrible.

Obviously, Dan Marino clearly had some poor defenses on his teams. But he's had some good defenses, too. He had his chances.

 

[Case Ace]

Barry Bonds (Don't take steroids into account) might be the best baseball player ever, but you never hear people say oh but he never won a worl series.

Baseball is an individual sport as far as team play much more than football when speaking of greats and tying them to team success. Football is a team sport to the degree that all moving parts must form one motion while baseball is a non-linear accumulation of individual play on a stage where the athlete often stands alone. If the guy in front of you strikes out with the bases loaded there was nothing you could do as an individual to prevent that. In football if someone misses a key block the tailback might be able to save the play. If the linebacker misses a tackle the safety will be there to make sure the guy doesn't take it to the house. Football is a game of team play more so than any other major professional sport in the U.S. In all the others, individual play and performance is more important to the outcome of the game. That said the most important individual position in all of sports is the quarterback. It is the only position that is a focal point of every single play thus making it unique to the sport, and really unique to sports as a whole. The performance of this position eclipses all others by a wide margin when we are talking about the accountability of winning. This is because football is a team game with essentially one position of extreme importance instead of a more individual game like baseball where the achievements of one lend to the whole. With the exception of just a few, most Super Bowl teams have had an effective player at QB if not someone who was outstanding. They may have not been outstanding for a career, but they put together one year or just a few games to lead their team to victory. I think the one glaring example is Trent Dilfer who although never did anything spectacular, did what the team asked him to by not turning it over and leaving the bulk of the work for an amazing defense and a solid running game. Dilfer still executed his work to near perfection, and even though his role seemed small he actually played the perfect individual game at the hardest individual position for the benefit of his team.

The QB has in general control over 1/2 to 1/3 of the plays in the game, not every play of a game. There are also special teams and defense dont forget. Your argument makes no sense. I agree the football requires the most amount of people working together to achieve success, but that leads to the conclusion that a QB is LESS important than a pitcher or a hockey goalie. With 10 other guys around him, you have significant places to hide a QBs deficiencies. If the pitcher or goalie sucks, you only have the option to pull them.

QBs certainly have more control over the outcome of a game than any other player on a football field (especially when they called the plays), but they can never single handedly dominate a playoffs like a hockey goalie or even a starting pitcher can.

If you put any great QB on a horrendous team like the Texans, none of them would win the Super Bowl with that bunch. Football is the most team game of any sport, therefore the level of talent on the team needs to be high to even have a shot at winning the Super Bowl. And the level of talent on the team is completely out of the control of the QB or any player.

For this reason, Super Bowl titles are a poor means of determining the best of all time at the position. Or did I miss Montana sacking Phil Simms at some point?

No position in football can be the most important position in sports b/c there are so many more players in football. The QB is only 1 of 11 players on the field & plays approximately 40% of the game. Jordan (or whoever) is 1 of only 5 players & is on the court for virtually the entire game. The QB is the most important position in football b/c the other positions are equally diluted. The QB isn't, however, the most important position in sports.

What is? I'll hang up and listen.

I don't know the answer to that, but I'd guess probably something like a goaltender in hockey, a point guard in basketball, a setter in volleyball, a striker in soccer. All of these are on the field/court a greater percentage of the time than the QB & all play amongst fewer players. It's possible if not probable that the QB position is more complex than those listed, but that's different than being more important to a team's success.

 

[parasaurolophus]

i suppose if the Marino supporters are going to give him a free pass because they say his defenses weren't very good, then they should also admit that his stats were inflated because of that same reason.

 

[dparker713]

First off, for a long stretch of that there were only 28 teams in the league. Second, take a look at the actual progression, not just the aggregate. 1st his rookie year. 7th his second year (they went to the SB). Then take 85-92 (93 he tore his achilles), that averages 17.6 out of 28. Leave out the 1993 season, and in the twilight of his career the defense posted a 15.25 average out of 28 for 4 years and then a 10th average out of 30 his final 2 years.

Your breakdown:1st his rookie year

7th his second year

17.6 out of 28 for 8 years

15.25 out of 28 for 4 years

10th out of 30 for 2 years

Sorry, but that still really isn't all that bad. It's obviously not great, but it's not horrible.

Obviously, Dan Marino clearly had some poor defenses on his teams. But he's had some good defenses, too. He had his chances.

Well, its below average. This was before the days of parity. Before you could get by with a spectacular unit and an average or below average unit. This was also the run of some very good-great Broncos teams, followed by a string of great-very good Bills teams. On the other side of the coin, the NFC was filled with a run of one great team after another. 49ers, Bears, Giants, Redskins, Cowboys. All of those teams were dominant.As I mentioned, his best defense in his prime was 4th, and they ran into a great Bills team in the playoffs that should have broken the NFC's string of Super Bowls against the Giants. He had 1 year in his prime with a good defense, and when he had nearly as good a defense in his second year, he reached the Super Bowl.

For the years they ranked 1st, I dont knock Marino for not reaching the Super Bowl his rookie year, nor for his next to last year when he had a bad running game and could no longer carry a team due to injuries and age.

 

[kingmalaki]

I don't think it's fair to judge a NFL player by rings, unless you are directly comparing a group of players (same position) and one of the players teams lost mainly because said player was really messing up (see Manning). Football and baseball are just such team sports.

The argument changes when you discuss basketball though....

 

[MarshallRob]

I was at a golf outing in Naples Florida 5 years ago and Marino was there along with a few other celebs.

Make no mistake....Marino is one arrogant SOB.

this is true. Marino quote: "don't you know who I am?" I have heard three independant first hand stories from people dealing with Marino where he utters this quote. The first one came from a woman who was a bartender @ Penn State - Marino tried sneaking into her bar, and she denied him access. "Don't you know who I am?" (side note: she dated Matt Millen at the time, Millen dumped her for her roommate, who Millen eventually married.)

The second one came from my wife. When she was in HS, she worked at an ice-cream shop in Ft. Lauderdale. Marino decided that he was entitled to skip the line and head straight to the counter. "Don't you know who I am?"

The third comes from a friend of mine who teaches at Marino's kids school. I don't remember the exact circumstance, but I remember her talking about him and that phrase came up.

Bottom line is that While Marino might be involved in a hand full of charitable orginizations, he is far from a humble man and he is pretty much a jerk when dealing with regular people.

This stuff really makes me mad. Has Marino ever acted arrogantly or like a jerk sometimes. Almost surely. Who hasn't? Is he a humble person? Maybe not but why does he have to be one? I'd say most great players are not humble because they know for a fact that they're better than their competitors and without confidence one can't be a great player. Would Marino be completely out of line to believe he could throw a football better than anyone who ever played? For each incident you cite to where Marino allegedly played the "Do you know who I am card" (one where he was still a college student and another with no facts included), I'm sure there are hundreds of times where Marino acted like a great guy. Here's a whole article full of them. It's probably the most moving sports column I've ever read in my life. If you don't want to read it here's an excerpt (it's from 2000):

Dear Dolphins:

Ten-year-old Ashley's special wish is to meet Dan Marino and attend the Dolphins-Patriots game Nov. 21. This youngster will be traveling from New Jersey. Her diagnosis is cerebral palsy with complications ...

The Fegos are lifelong Jets fans. Gary Fego is particularly rabid, having followed the team ever since getting Joe Namath's autograph as a child. So, naturally, Ashley, their little niece with cerebral palsy, became a Dolphins fan just to annoy them. She fell in love with Miami's quarterback, who she thought was cute.

"So we figure that maybe we can get tickets to one of Dan's game's from the team, but Dan says, no, he wants to meet her personally," Judy Fego is saying now. "We couldn't believe the way he treated her, the impression that he made. He treated her like a queen. They talked about their dogs. They talked about how Ace Ventura was their favorite movie. He put his cap on her head. He waved to her after the game. He told her how beautiful she was. And he gave her hugs. Lots of hugs ... "

Judy Fego pauses here, voice cracking.

"What he did for her, I can't even explain it. He gave her the thrill of her life. If you look at the video now, all me and my husband did was cry. Ashley has had 12 surgeries – on her eyes, her legs, her heart. She can't walk or see that well. And he made her feel like the most beautiful person in the world. Do you speak to him at all? Will you tell him that she still cries whenever she watches the video?"

Ashley has three copies of the video, at her house and her grandmother's and at the Fego's, so she can watch it wherever she is. Her room is aqua and white, with a Dolphins bed set and Marino posters on the wall. As for her aunt and uncle, the lifelong Jets fans, well ...

"If the Dolphins and Jets are playing for the right to go to the Super Bowl," Judy Fego says, "you can bet this whole family will be rooting for Dan Marino and the Dolphins."

That's just one article. Here's another one. In honor of Marino's Hall of Fame induction, the Miami Herald tracked down every single player who caught a TD pass from Dan Marino and asked them to share a memory about him. That's 54 people. Strangely enough, not one of them had anything bad to say about him other than Lorenzo Hampton who just said he wished he had had more of an off-the-field relationship with Marino. Obscure tight end Frank Wainwright offered this story:

'My first year there, I was living in Rolling Hills Hotel by myself and it was Christmas. My wife had to stay back in Colorado with our daughter because my daughter was 2 and had the tubes in her ears and everything back then. So Dan and Claire invited me over for Christmas. Dan and I had hit it off pretty good in the locker room, but I'm still figuring I'm just going over for dinner. So I ask him what time should I get there. He said, 'The kids like to open their presents early, so come by as soon as you can.' Joe Planansky, another tight end living in the hotel, and I end up spending the whole day at Dan's house, this big Italian Christmas. It was great. For him to open up the house like that, that says a lot about Dan. He's a great guy and fierce competitor.''

If you want to believe Marino is a jerk that's your perogative but you don't know him and I think there's a lot more evidence out there to show Marino's a fine human being. We don't know what Favre's really like either. Mark Chmura seems to think Favre is a self-centered jerk. Is Chmura right? Certainly good reasons exist to not believe anything Chmura says. On the other hand he knows Favre better than any of us do. Who knows what the real story is about any of them? To answer Joe's original question, Marino's my favorite player of all time and I'd like to see his records all stand forever. However, I know there's zero chance of that happening so it wouldn't bother me. Honestly though, I'd prefer that Favre not be the one to break Dan's records for two reasons:

1) Favre is no longer a good, let alone great QB, yet he keeps on playing. Marino retired right after his first mediocre season.

2) No other NFL player has ever received the uncritical adulation that Favre has. Long after Favre has ceased to be a good player, broadcasters still talk about him worshipfully and make excuses for his poor play. I've never seen anything like it. When the Packers have the ball it's like Favre's the only player on the field and the other 21 guys don't exist. I know what's said about him isn't his fault but it's beyond annoying now and it has tainted my ability to appreciate him as a player.

 

[Mario Kart]

To answer Joe's original question, Marino's my favorite player of all time and I'd like to see his records all stand forever. However, I know there's zero chance of that happening so it wouldn't bother me. Honestly though, I'd prefer that Favre not be the one to break Dan's records for two reasons:1) Favre is no longer a good, let alone great QB, yet he keeps on playing. Marino retired right after his first mediocre season.2) No other NFL player has ever received the uncritical adulation that Favre has. Long after Favre has ceased to be a good player, broadcasters still talk about him worshipfully and make excuses for his poor play. I've never seen anything like it. When the Packers have the ball it's like Favre's the only player on the field and the other 21 guys don't exist. I know what's said about him isn't his fault but it's beyond annoying now and it has tainted my ability to appreciate him as a player.

I feel for you since you stated eloquently the reasons for liking and backing Marino yet lack the ability to separate what others say about Favre instead of his actions speaking for them. Favre has had one bad year where he actually hurt the Packers... that was last year. However, since last year is so recent in memory and I dont have to be a stat reader to evaluate it... the Packers were hindered all around by poor play, injuries, and off field drama. People seem to forget that a couple years ago it was Brett Favre who led the league in TD passes. Has Favre's game slowed? Maybe, but the off field antics that have involved Favre have all been due to the media or other players/coaches speculating about him. Packer land knows the days of Favre are nearly done however it will say a lot about Thompson and McCarthy if they show Favre the door instead of the other way around. I hope Favre breaks more records than the ones that he has. Favre's worst year is still better than 2 or 3 of Marino's worst years near the end of their career.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I was at a golf outing in Naples Florida 5 years ago and Marino was there along with a few other celebs.

Make no mistake....Marino is one arrogant SOB.

this is true. Marino quote: "don't you know who I am?" I have heard three independant first hand stories from people dealing with Marino where he utters this quote. The first one came from a woman who was a bartender @ Penn State - Marino tried sneaking into her bar, and she denied him access. "Don't you know who I am?" (side note: she dated Matt Millen at the time, Millen dumped her for her roommate, who Millen eventually married.)

The second one came from my wife. When she was in HS, she worked at an ice-cream shop in Ft. Lauderdale. Marino decided that he was entitled to skip the line and head straight to the counter. "Don't you know who I am?"

The third comes from a friend of mine who teaches at Marino's kids school. I don't remember the exact circumstance, but I remember her talking about him and that phrase came up.

Bottom line is that While Marino might be involved in a hand full of charitable orginizations, he is far from a humble man and he is pretty much a jerk when dealing with regular people.

This stuff really makes me mad. Has Marino ever acted arrogantly or like a jerk sometimes. Almost surely. Who hasn't? Is he a humble person? Maybe not but why does he have to be one? I'd say most great players are not humble because they know for a fact that they're better than their competitors and without confidence one can't be a great player. Would Marino be completely out of line to believe he could throw a football better than anyone who ever played? For each incident you cite to where Marino allegedly played the "Do you know who I am card" (one where he was still a college student and another with no facts included), I'm sure there are hundreds of times where Marino acted like a great guy. Here's a whole article full of them. It's probably the most moving sports column I've ever read in my life. If you don't want to read it here's an excerpt (it's from 2000):

Dear Dolphins:

Ten-year-old Ashley's special wish is to meet Dan Marino and attend the Dolphins-Patriots game Nov. 21. This youngster will be traveling from New Jersey. Her diagnosis is cerebral palsy with complications ...

The Fegos are lifelong Jets fans. Gary Fego is particularly rabid, having followed the team ever since getting Joe Namath's autograph as a child. So, naturally, Ashley, their little niece with cerebral palsy, became a Dolphins fan just to annoy them. She fell in love with Miami's quarterback, who she thought was cute.

"So we figure that maybe we can get tickets to one of Dan's game's from the team, but Dan says, no, he wants to meet her personally," Judy Fego is saying now. "We couldn't believe the way he treated her, the impression that he made. He treated her like a queen. They talked about their dogs. They talked about how Ace Ventura was their favorite movie. He put his cap on her head. He waved to her after the game. He told her how beautiful she was. And he gave her hugs. Lots of hugs ... "

Judy Fego pauses here, voice cracking.

"What he did for her, I can't even explain it. He gave her the thrill of her life. If you look at the video now, all me and my husband did was cry. Ashley has had 12 surgeries – on her eyes, her legs, her heart. She can't walk or see that well. And he made her feel like the most beautiful person in the world. Do you speak to him at all? Will you tell him that she still cries whenever she watches the video?"

Ashley has three copies of the video, at her house and her grandmother's and at the Fego's, so she can watch it wherever she is. Her room is aqua and white, with a Dolphins bed set and Marino posters on the wall. As for her aunt and uncle, the lifelong Jets fans, well ...

"If the Dolphins and Jets are playing for the right to go to the Super Bowl," Judy Fego says, "you can bet this whole family will be rooting for Dan Marino and the Dolphins."

That's just one article. Here's another one. In honor of Marino's Hall of Fame induction, the Miami Herald tracked down every single player who caught a TD pass from Dan Marino and asked them to share a memory about him. That's 54 people. Strangely enough, not one of them had anything bad to say about him other than Lorenzo Hampton who just said he wished he had had more of an off-the-field relationship with Marino. Obscure tight end Frank Wainwright offered this story:

'My first year there, I was living in Rolling Hills Hotel by myself and it was Christmas. My wife had to stay back in Colorado with our daughter because my daughter was 2 and had the tubes in her ears and everything back then. So Dan and Claire invited me over for Christmas. Dan and I had hit it off pretty good in the locker room, but I'm still figuring I'm just going over for dinner. So I ask him what time should I get there. He said, 'The kids like to open their presents early, so come by as soon as you can.' Joe Planansky, another tight end living in the hotel, and I end up spending the whole day at Dan's house, this big Italian Christmas. It was great. For him to open up the house like that, that says a lot about Dan. He's a great guy and fierce competitor.''

If you want to believe Marino is a jerk that's your perogative but you don't know him and I think there's a lot more evidence out there to show Marino's a fine human being. We don't know what Favre's really like either. Mark Chmura seems to think Favre is a self-centered jerk. Is Chmura right? Certainly good reasons exist to not believe anything Chmura says. On the other hand he knows Favre better than any of us do. Who knows what the real story is about any of them? To answer Joe's original question, Marino's my favorite player of all time and I'd like to see his records all stand forever. However, I know there's zero chance of that happening so it wouldn't bother me. Honestly though, I'd prefer that Favre not be the one to break Dan's records for two reasons:

1) Favre is no longer a good, let alone great QB, yet he keeps on playing. Marino retired right after his first mediocre season.

2) No other NFL player has ever received the uncritical adulation that Favre has. Long after Favre has ceased to be a good player, broadcasters still talk about him worshipfully and make excuses for his poor play. I've never seen anything like it. When the Packers have the ball it's like Favre's the only player on the field and the other 21 guys don't exist. I know what's said about him isn't his fault but it's beyond annoying now and it has tainted my ability to appreciate him as a player.

1) Marino was mediocre for quite a while his last 3 seasons his high for TDs was 23 and that was 6 higher than his next closest during that span, and his high for comp % in those 3 years was 58.2%. Trent Dilfer threw for more TD passes during that 3 year stretch, and played 1 fewer game.2) If Favre is so bad, why did GB wait it out for him to return? Why will they not hesitate to do it again?

3) Jim Brown receives far more praise than Favre ever has. Most people have never even seen him play yet they say he is the best ever.

4) Its really too bad you can't appreciate how good for football Brett Favre has been. I coach a basketball team and i have whiny kids who cant go a whole season without missing a game for some lame reason. Favre has played week in and week out for a long time. He is a great example of toughness and devotion

5) Was Mark Chmura really brought up in this thread????

 

[Tau837]

...To answer Joe's original question, Marino's my favorite player of all time and I'd like to see his records all stand forever. However, I know there's zero chance of that happening so it wouldn't bother me.

MR, you are one of my favorite posters on this board, and, true to form, I thought your post was excellent right up to this point. Unfortunately, you then were just as negative towards Favre as those you were addressing in your post had been about Marino, and essentially without any real substantive basis.

Honestly though, I'd prefer that Favre not be the one to break Dan's records for two reasons:1) Favre is no longer a good, let alone great QB, yet he keeps on playing. Marino retired right after his first mediocre season

In Marino's last 5 seasons, he totaled 16188 passing yards, 92 passing TDs, and 67 interceptions.Favre's last 5 seasons: 18303 passing yards, 126 passing TDs, and 98 interceptions, with 2 more games to go. And last year, with all of the injuries, obviously skewed Favre's interceptions... he had 29 last year and 69 in his other 64 games within this 5 year period, compared to Marino's 67 interceptions in 70 games... pretty comparable.Personally, I think Marino was pretty mediocre in his last 5 years. I think Favre has been a bit better than that in his last 5 years. And IMO it is easily overlooked in this comparison that Marino missed 21 games in his last 7 seasons, whereas Favre played every game. Favre deserves credit for that in this comparison.

2) No other NFL player has ever received the uncritical adulation that Favre has. Long after Favre has ceased to be a good player, broadcasters still talk about him worshipfully and make excuses for his poor play. I've never seen anything like it. When the Packers have the ball it's like Favre's the only player on the field and the other 21 guys don't exist. I know what's said about him isn't his fault but it's beyond annoying now and it has tainted my ability to appreciate him as a player.

The fundamental problem with this part of your post is that Favre hasn't necessarily ceased to be a good player yet. As for adulation, there was plenty of it to go around for Montana, Elway, Aikman, Rice, Reggie White, and others. At least you recognize your inability to look past your bias.

 

[MarshallRob]

I'm already on record as being both a Marino fan and someone who's heartily sick of Favre-mania. However, I don't believe any of that is entering into my estimation of Favre's current ability. I think the evidence is clear Favre's not a good player anymore. His QB rating last year was 70.9. This year it's 74.8, a little better but not much. He's near the bottom of the league. Marino was never below 80.0 until his last season after which he retired. I believe that a huge late-career spike in INT's or TD/INT ratio (like Marino in his last year or Favre in 2005) is a sign a QB has "hit the wall". Favre's done a bit better with INT's this year for whatever reason, but his completion percentage is his worst ever and his yards per attempt is very low as well. His overall totals are solid but, like last year, it's taking him a lot more throws to get there and at his age he needs to be throwing less not more during the course of a long season.

As for the records, Favre's been a great player and if he gets them he's certainly earned them. I just dread those days to come as the NFL will officially become the National Favre League.

 

[Fla\/\/ed]

Peyton is going to break most of Marino's records anyway. He and Dan can enjoy all their great commercials and records while everyone else wins rings. That's what the game comes down to. Mark Rypien has a ring and Marino doesn't. Trent Dilfer has one, Peyton doesn't. Just sayin'.

What are you sayin'? I don't follow.

I *think* he's saying some QBs only have records to look back on and some only have rings. Nevertheless, it doesn't take a great QB to win a ring, but it certainly takes a great one to set and break records.

Marino was a great QB. He just wasn't Unitas, Favre, Montana, Brady, or Bradshaw. To me those guys are all better and then some.

So because Favre won ONE super bowl that makes him better? You do realize that he had the #1 ranked defense that year and that Desmond Howard was the main reason they won that game, right? So if Howard doesn't dominate that game and they lose then hes somehow less of a player because of that?

So Favre had nothing to do with the Super Bowl win or nothing to do with helping the team that season? Desmond Howard was just one of many important players on that Super Bowl team but he wasn't the main reason they won. They won the Super Bowl because they had a great TEAM that season.

 

[redman]

I was at a golf outing in Naples Florida 5 years ago and Marino was there along with a few other celebs.

Make no mistake....Marino is one arrogant SOB.

this is true. Marino quote: "don't you know who I am?" I have heard three independant first hand stories from people dealing with Marino where he utters this quote. The first one came from a woman who was a bartender @ Penn State - Marino tried sneaking into her bar, and she denied him access. "Don't you know who I am?" (side note: she dated Matt Millen at the time, Millen dumped her for her roommate, who Millen eventually married.)

The second one came from my wife. When she was in HS, she worked at an ice-cream shop in Ft. Lauderdale. Marino decided that he was entitled to skip the line and head straight to the counter. "Don't you know who I am?"

The third comes from a friend of mine who teaches at Marino's kids school. I don't remember the exact circumstance, but I remember her talking about him and that phrase came up.

Bottom line is that While Marino might be involved in a hand full of charitable orginizations, he is far from a humble man and he is pretty much a jerk when dealing with regular people.

This stuff really makes me mad. Has Marino ever acted arrogantly or like a jerk sometimes. Almost surely. Who hasn't? Is he a humble person? Maybe not but why does he have to be one? I'd say most great players are not humble because they know for a fact that they're better than their competitors and without confidence one can't be a great player. Would Marino be completely out of line to believe he could throw a football better than anyone who ever played? For each incident you cite to where Marino allegedly played the "Do you know who I am card" (one where he was still a college student and another with no facts included), I'm sure there are hundreds of times where Marino acted like a great guy. Here's a whole article full of them. It's probably the most moving sports column I've ever read in my life. If you don't want to read it here's an excerpt (it's from 2000):

Dear Dolphins:

Ten-year-old Ashley's special wish is to meet Dan Marino and attend the Dolphins-Patriots game Nov. 21. This youngster will be traveling from New Jersey. Her diagnosis is cerebral palsy with complications ...

The Fegos are lifelong Jets fans. Gary Fego is particularly rabid, having followed the team ever since getting Joe Namath's autograph as a child. So, naturally, Ashley, their little niece with cerebral palsy, became a Dolphins fan just to annoy them. She fell in love with Miami's quarterback, who she thought was cute.

"So we figure that maybe we can get tickets to one of Dan's game's from the team, but Dan says, no, he wants to meet her personally," Judy Fego is saying now. "We couldn't believe the way he treated her, the impression that he made. He treated her like a queen. They talked about their dogs. They talked about how Ace Ventura was their favorite movie. He put his cap on her head. He waved to her after the game. He told her how beautiful she was. And he gave her hugs. Lots of hugs ... "

Judy Fego pauses here, voice cracking.

"What he did for her, I can't even explain it. He gave her the thrill of her life. If you look at the video now, all me and my husband did was cry. Ashley has had 12 surgeries – on her eyes, her legs, her heart. She can't walk or see that well. And he made her feel like the most beautiful person in the world. Do you speak to him at all? Will you tell him that she still cries whenever she watches the video?"

Ashley has three copies of the video, at her house and her grandmother's and at the Fego's, so she can watch it wherever she is. Her room is aqua and white, with a Dolphins bed set and Marino posters on the wall. As for her aunt and uncle, the lifelong Jets fans, well ...

"If the Dolphins and Jets are playing for the right to go to the Super Bowl," Judy Fego says, "you can bet this whole family will be rooting for Dan Marino and the Dolphins."

That's just one article. Here's another one. In honor of Marino's Hall of Fame induction, the Miami Herald tracked down every single player who caught a TD pass from Dan Marino and asked them to share a memory about him. That's 54 people. Strangely enough, not one of them had anything bad to say about him other than Lorenzo Hampton who just said he wished he had had more of an off-the-field relationship with Marino. Obscure tight end Frank Wainwright offered this story:

'My first year there, I was living in Rolling Hills Hotel by myself and it was Christmas. My wife had to stay back in Colorado with our daughter because my daughter was 2 and had the tubes in her ears and everything back then. So Dan and Claire invited me over for Christmas. Dan and I had hit it off pretty good in the locker room, but I'm still figuring I'm just going over for dinner. So I ask him what time should I get there. He said, 'The kids like to open their presents early, so come by as soon as you can.' Joe Planansky, another tight end living in the hotel, and I end up spending the whole day at Dan's house, this big Italian Christmas. It was great. For him to open up the house like that, that says a lot about Dan. He's a great guy and fierce competitor.''

If you want to believe Marino is a jerk that's your perogative but you don't know him and I think there's a lot more evidence out there to show Marino's a fine human being. We don't know what Favre's really like either. Mark Chmura seems to think Favre is a self-centered jerk. Is Chmura right? Certainly good reasons exist to not believe anything Chmura says. On the other hand he knows Favre better than any of us do. Who knows what the real story is about any of them? To answer Joe's original question, Marino's my favorite player of all time and I'd like to see his records all stand forever. However, I know there's zero chance of that happening so it wouldn't bother me. Honestly though, I'd prefer that Favre not be the one to break Dan's records for two reasons:

1) Favre is no longer a good, let alone great QB, yet he keeps on playing. Marino retired right after his first mediocre season.

2) No other NFL player has ever received the uncritical adulation that Favre has. Long after Favre has ceased to be a good player, broadcasters still talk about him worshipfully and make excuses for his poor play. I've never seen anything like it. When the Packers have the ball it's like Favre's the only player on the field and the other 21 guys don't exist. I know what's said about him isn't his fault but it's beyond annoying now and it has tainted my ability to appreciate him as a player.

Nobody's saying your hero is evil, just arrogant. Hey, it's great he treated that girl nicely and gets along with his receivers. The skeptic in me says that he treated the girl on his own terms, and that his receivers are part of his elite NFL club (besides, what QB wants to get on the wrong side of his recievers?). For me, playing the "Do you know who I am?" card is an interesting insight into a human being's sense of entitlement and view of the outside world, and it is most certainly NOT what every player - even every great player - does. Walter Payton was twice the NFL player that Marino was and was known for his humility and graciousness. You won't find stories about him to the contrary.

Dan can be a ####. Deal with it.