Big Daddy Kane
Footballguy
Only person I see that needs to get banned is BassNBrew for his foul language on this board.
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Is there a Mike Vick thread? (2 Viewers)
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Big Daddy Kane
Footballguy
I have seen Slash contribute positively to threads. I have not seen Slash use the kind of language that BassNBrew consistently uses, besides I have read several threads tonight where BassNBrew was very antagonistic.
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Whatevaman15
Footballguy
i agree. naughty words offend my delicate sensibilities.
FinHead
Footballguy
I'm an ATL season ticket holder and I just got home from the game. Vick is an amazing athelete that makes things happen w/ his legs. As far as being a good QB... his passing skills are below average! A cupcake schedule, a weak NFC, a very good defense, and 3 RBs won the NFC South for the Falcon's.Maybe Vick's throwing skills will improve someday, but ATL has to get something resembling WRs to give him a chance. It was funny watching Price get booed when he ran out of the tunnel and then getting booed again later during the game. You can't just look at the Falcon's record last year w/o Vick. Their D and their running game weren't too bad. They were winning every home game at halftime, but would collapse in the 2nd half.Vick is fun to watch, and he's definitely given ATL something to cheer about. If the Falcon's would ever get some marginal WRs, he'll have the chance to show that MAYBE he's an average passer. 
People need to get over this stuff.Vick is a special player, plain and simpleIf you tell me you'd take Trent Green, Brian Griese, Pennington, Bulger, or any of the other guys you mentioned above, you dont know football.There's a reason that EVERY SINGLE PLAYER they EVER ask about Vick all talk glowingly about how special he is.He changes the way defenses play Atlanta and if you cant see that, you're blind.Sure, he's not a polished passer yet.Who cares?Look outside the box for a minute.The guy makes plays and his team wins, end of story.Does he make some stupid plays, yeahWho doesnt?And last time I checked, all the QB's you've mentioned with the exception of Tom Brady have never won a Superbowl. So everyone needs to quit the hating on Vick.He's so special, sit back and enjoy the fact that he's a PLAYER and dont worry about what position he falls under.Let him be.He'll have his rough spots, he's 24 years old. Jesus!He's younger than alot of the rookies in the league right nowI cant believe so many " Diehard " football fans constantly beat this topic to death each week, from one extreme to another.Let it go and just enjoy his talents for what they areKordell Stewart, HAGimme a breakLoop
Whatevaman15
Footballguy
Their defense was ranked 13th overall going into this weekend. Above average but not spectacular. Their rushers outside of vick were averaging just under 4.3 yards/carry, again good but not great. Of course their schedule is weak, but a weak schedule doesnt make a team 11-3.
did you happend to read a bit earlier when i mentioned that i STILL don't know of any WR's that can jump 15 feet in the air, or who pack jetpacks on their backs to catch up with the bullets he's throwing so inaccuratley?I'm an ATL season ticket holder and I just got home from the game. Vick is an amazing athelete that makes things happen w/ his legs. As far as being a good QB... his passing skills are below average! A cupcake schedule, a weak NFC, a very good defense, and 3 RBs won the NFC South for the Falcon's.Maybe Vick's throwing skills will improve someday, but ATL has to get something resembling WRs to give him a chance. It was funny watching Price get booed when he ran out of the tunnel and then getting booed again later during the game. You can't just look at the Falcon's record last year w/o Vick. Their D and their running game weren't too bad. They were winning every home game at halftime, but would collapse in the 2nd half.Vick is fun to watch, and he's definitely given ATL something to cheer about. If the Falcon's would ever get some marginal WRs, he'll have the chance to show that MAYBE he's an average passer.
FairWarning
Footballguy
Vicks stats for the game
assing 11/28 154 2 tds 2 ints (could have had a 3rd very easy)Rushing 8 68 1td 25 long2 fumbles, 1 lostIf those are special numbers, Atlanta will be lucky to win a playoff game.Vick has his moments, but I expect more. All I hear is how great he IS and nothing about the horrible reads he had tonight from the ESPN talking heads doing the game. Having the number 1 passing game, don't you think the passing numbers should be better?Remember Vick fans - Exciting is not great. If you want to see a truly great qb, watch Manning tomorrow.
assing 11/28 154 2 tds 2 ints (could have had a 3rd very easy)Rushing 8 68 1td 25 long2 fumbles, 1 lostIf those are special numbers, Atlanta will be lucky to win a playoff game.Vick has his moments, but I expect more. All I hear is how great he IS and nothing about the horrible reads he had tonight from the ESPN talking heads doing the game. Having the number 1 passing game, don't you think the passing numbers should be better?Remember Vick fans - Exciting is not great. If you want to see a truly great qb, watch Manning tomorrow.
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Tau837
Footballguy
This is a point that I think people totally overlook. How many starting QBs in the NFL are 24 or younger? I assume Roethlisberger and Eli are. Who else? Vick has only scratched the surface of his potential.I agree he is overhyped, but I also think his detractors are over the top. Today, he is an average QB who makes a handful of great plays every game and also draws plenty of defensive attention away from his teammates. Within a few years, he will be a much better passer, and he'll still be capable of making the same great plays he makes today.
Vick's win at Lambeau is more impressive than anything Peyton has done in the NFL at this point.to me, anyway.
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Vick is a hype machine by the NFL because they are desparate to have a black quarterback win a Super Bowl plain and simple. That's why he's got all of the commercials, along with McNabb. 1 black quarterback has won a Super Bowl, Doug Williams, that's it. The NFL is trying to promote black people so much it's ridiculous. They MAKE teams interview a black coach before they can hire who they want. Same deal here. Vick had a passer rating of what 58 tonight???? He hasn't completed 18 passes in a game in over 2 years and they're all on his nuts. Vick had 2 int's and really a third that they called a fumble so as to not tarnish him. He almost single handedly lost the game. Delhomme makes 1 bad throw and he's chastised and Vick is glorified. Delhomme's passer rating was almost double that of Vick yet all you'll see on the highlights is Vick's dive into the end zone on 4th down, watch. If I had to have 1 quarterback to build a team around, he wouldn't even be in the top 10. Face it people, he's not that good.
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Jimmy James
Footballguy
You have evidence of this, I suppose. Just what is it? Don't tell me that you're making such a sweeping statement based on nothing more than what you wrote below...
Which of them is made up as Brett Favre in all of his commercials? Whoever it is, I guess the other one is made up as Peyton Manning.
That's one more than the Mexicans have. I guess that's the NFL's next conspiracy.
Teams have to interview a black QB before they hire a white one?
It's really a burden on teams to throw in Art Shell or Romeo Crennel on the list of guys they give courtesy interviews to, all right. I understand that there are situations where this looks ridiculous (Mooch to the Lions, Gibbs to the Redskins, Parcells to the Cowboys, Saban to the Dolphins), but the league would find it hard to account for that possibility and still require interviews in situations where the hire is less obvious.
What exactly is a "handid"? Is it some sort of bar code identifier on the hand? Didn't Big Ben also "almost single handidly" lose a game today? Why aren't you complaining about how the media is "on his nuts"?
A dive into the end zone on a 4th down? That sounds like an outstanding play that should get coverage. Are you telling me that you'd actually show some 20 yard pass to Muhammad instead of it if you were creating a highlight reel for the game?
I'll ask the question swimming around in all of our heads -- just how many black QBs make your top 10. This should be interesting...
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how many QBs had success in their first year starting in a WCO after having played in a different system?ALL of the things being said about Vick nowadays were the exact same things being said about Donovan McNabb. Now, look at what Donovan is doing with a bonafide stud WR on his team. He's also benefited from playing in the WCO since entering the league. Give Vick a legit #1 WR and more time in that system and he'll put up much better numbers.Regardless, the Falcons are 11-3 and are going to get a 1st round bye. Who else on their team is an elite player? Keith Brooking is, but he's having a down year. You guys are nuts if you don't think Vick is a special player that is deserving of hype. He's one of the most exciting players to watch of all time, and he's leading his team to victory despite subpar passing numbers. What's not to like?
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But the thing is, McNabb wasn't overrated and was at least an above average QB without Owens. He just became elite now.Vick has two good RBs, one of the best receiving TEs in the league, a WR that has been over 1200 yards in his career, a large target in Finneran, a good #3 receiver in White and a 1st round pick in Michael Jenkins.How many weapons does Vick need to throw for more than 165 yards a game? In terms of passing yards, he is behind Rattay, Leftwich, Testaverde, Griese and Collins who have all missed games because of injury. He's barely ahead of Warner and Pennington. Boller, Volek and McCown will problem pass him by the end of the year.He's not a good QB. Great runner from the QB position...of course, but not a good QB. It would take a superstar WR to make him look like an above average QB. He's only thrown over 200 yards 3 times this year. If he wasn't for his running and his high draft status that would have gotten him benched.Heres an idea - why not loan Terrell Owens to Atlanta for weeks 16 & 17 so we can see how good Vick REALLY is? Worked for Mcnabb, and would put a quick end to all the Limbaugh-esque "Vick is overrated" nonsense.
is it Vick or is it the system?
I recall McNair not looking like much of a passer earlier in his career. He used to play like a LB and would simply run over people frequently. Then Mason emerged, they opened up the offense and he went out and won the MVP last year.
Seriously, plenty of other young QBs have struggled passing the ball...but even moreso, when playing in the WCO for the first time. He may or not develop into a solid passer, but if he's leading his team to wins, who cares?
I can't think of many QBs in the league that defenses would hate to face more than Vick. How can you argue with 11-3? The defense isn't that good.
I recall McNair not looking like much of a passer earlier in his career. He used to play like a LB and would simply run over people frequently. Then Mason emerged, they opened up the offense and he went out and won the MVP last year.
Seriously, plenty of other young QBs have struggled passing the ball...but even moreso, when playing in the WCO for the first time. He may or not develop into a solid passer, but if he's leading his team to wins, who cares?
I can't think of many QBs in the league that defenses would hate to face more than Vick. How can you argue with 11-3? The defense isn't that good.
you would bench a QB that led his team to an 11-3 record?
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Jimmy James
Footballguy
Did you spend some serious time off the planet in 2003 when Donovan looked bad? Vick has an excellent TE. He also has one decent but undersized RB who doesn't stack up to Westbrook, one promising but inconsistent larger RB, a guy who did well as a #2 WR and took the Falcons for #1 WR money even though he needs somebody on the opposite side to take attention off of him, a large target *with hands of stone* in Finneran, an okay #3 in White, and Jenkins for the future. It isn't Pinkston and Mitchell, but it's not really that rosy at all. We all know Vick hasn't lit it up through the air this year, but dismissing his running as not making up for that and making him a poor QB just isn't appropriate. I'll grant anybody that Vick is overhyped and generally overrated. That doesn't make him a poor real world QB that the Falcons are winning in spite of, though.
Jimmy James
Footballguy
Isn't this a pretty big cop out? I mean, I can say that if it weren't for his excellent passing ability, Peyton Manning wouldn't even make an NFL roster. You can disqualify any player using this sort of argument...I said if it wasn't for his running ability. If he didn't have his running ability, they wouldn't be 11-3.you would bench a QB that led his team to an 11-3 record?
I agreed with Rush when he made his comment. Well I didn't completely agree with it, but I agreed that McNabb was overrated. But then later in the season he played much, much better. But even when he was playing bad, it was better than Vick is playing now.
Vick is a very valuable player, doesn't mean that he is a good QB. And it isn't just this year, Vick has never been a good passer. In 2002 he averaged 195 ypg passing on an average of 15 completions. This year is worse, 162 ypg and 12.5 comp. He's a great player but a below average to bad QB.
How many black quarterbacks would make my list? Well if McNair wasn't old as dirt that would be 4.1.Peyton Manning-Numbers speak for themselves2.Tom Brady-Count the rings3.Donovan McNabb-Possibly brings that number to 2 black Super Bowl winners4.Daunte Culpepper-Just needs a defense5.Brett Favre-Already said he'd play several more years if the team is there.6.Ben Roethlisberger-12-0, what more do you want, plus he's a rookie7.Chad Pennington-When healthy one of the most accurate passers in the league8.Carson Palmer-Look at his numbers and he's basically a rookie.9.Matt Hasselbeck-You want to talk about no recivers for Vick???10.Aaron Brooks-The smiling after int's gets on my nerves, but with a defense could lead the Saints to the promised land.
Jimmy James
Footballguy
You acknowledge a QB like Brooks by putting him on your top 10 list, but you think the NFL has some sort of black QB agenda? This doesn't add up. I mean, why wouldn't the NFL be pushing one of the black QBs you favor over Vick if that was their agenda? Don't you think that means there has to be something else at play here?
Whatevaman15
Footballguy
McNair is 31, Favre is 35, how is McNair too old to be on the list.Culpepper: THe only reason he just needs a defense is because he already has randy moss and a pretty darn good o-lineFavre: 4 years older than dirtRoethlisberger: very good but relies on running game and defense much more than Vick doesPennington: Injury prone and his down the field passing is questionablePalmer: Look at the numbers Jon Kitna put up in that offense. Hassleback: Alot more surrounding talent than Vick hasBrooks: Maybe IF he had a defense as good as the falcons he could be 11-3, but Vick is 11-3. Why do you keep referring to QBs by their skin colour? Why does this seem to matter so much to you?
Jimmy James
Footballguy
Okay...so where would you play Vick to get the value out of him? If you have a good answer, I'm sure that somebody in Atlanta would love to know. You're equating QB with passer. That isn't the way the league works today, and it's not how football on various levels has worked at various times. Atlanta has hit upon something that works for them. Why isn't that good enough?
I said that Vick would be benched if it wasn't for his running ability. Isn't that true?If Vick got injured and was never able to scramble, would he be starting very long for his team after the injury? If Manning were to hurt his throwing shoulder badly, he would probably be done too.Which sounds more "qb-like", a career ending shoulder injury or ending a career because he can't scramble anymore.Isn't this a pretty big cop out? I mean, I can say that if it weren't for his excellent passing ability, Peyton Manning wouldn't even make an NFL roster. You can disqualify any player using this sort of argument...I said if it wasn't for his running ability. If he didn't have his running ability, they wouldn't be 11-3.you would bench a QB that led his team to an 11-3 record?
Jimmy James
Footballguy
We're saying Vick sucks because the injury that might displace him from the game doesn't sound QB-like?How about this -- Steve Young and Troy Aikman had to retire due to concussions. Does that sound very QB-like? I guess they must suck, too. Going farther, Dan Marino wasn't the same QB after injuring his achilles tendon. Does that sound QB-like?I said that Vick would be benched if it wasn't for his running ability. Isn't that true?If Vick got injured and was never able to scramble, would he be starting very long for his team after the injury? If Manning were to hurt his throwing shoulder badly, he would probably be done too.Which sounds more "qb-like", a career ending shoulder injury or ending a career because he can't scramble anymore.Isn't this a pretty big cop out? I mean, I can say that if it weren't for his excellent passing ability, Peyton Manning wouldn't even make an NFL roster. You can disqualify any player using this sort of argument...I said if it wasn't for his running ability. If he didn't have his running ability, they wouldn't be 11-3.you would bench a QB that led his team to an 11-3 record?
Vick is an extremely unique player...it seems unfair to compare him with QBs like Manning and Favre. While nowhere near as good as them as a passer, they can't even dream of making some of the plays that he makes with his feet.Vick singlehandedly led Virginia Tech to the national championship game as a freshman in college.Vick singlehandedly defeated Favre and the Packers in a playoff game at Lambeau for the first and only time in history.Whatever he's doing, it's working. Even if he never throws for 3,000 yards in a season, he can still be a great QB. He just may not fit your idea of what makes a QB great.Bad passer != Bad QB
I'm not referring to them in skin color, you are. You asked me how many black qb's would I have in my top 10, I answered. I'm sorry, I should clarify my McNair statement. The old as dirt was meant in body damage. He has much more than Favre in this area. He's very close to retiring this year as his body just can't take much more. The reason for the McNabb comment was just a follow up of the other post. If you look at the quarterbacks that start in the league, Vick isn't even close to being top 10 in passing. Yes, he's a playmaker. He might be the greatest playmaker of all time. That doesn't mean he's a good quarterback. As far as Vick not having as much talent as Hasselbeck in the receiving corps, get real. Seattle has the worst receivers in the league. Darrel Jackson is nixed out by Alge Crumpler. Jerry Rice is the greatest receiver ever, not any more though. Koren Robinson is a dope head that's dropped more balls than a hooker on Bourbon Street. Vick has quite possibly the best tools of any player ever. The problem is he doesn't know how to use them properly. Maybe in 5-6 years he can grow into a great quarterback, maybe even the best ever. As of right now, he is a pathetic passer that can't make a big time PASSING play to save his team. You're telling me throwing it into 4 Carolina Panthers on 3rd down and goal was the play of a good QB? The game should've been over there, luckily for him, they didn't catch it.
Jimmy James
Footballguy
Don't go passing the race card off on me. You made a bold and ridiculous statement about the league having an agenda to give a Super Bowl win to a black QB, and I called you on it. That's how we got where we are.
you guys act like good QBs never make bad plays.did you catch Favre's 6 INT performance in the playoffs a few years ago?anyone remember Culpepper throwing 23 INTs in 2002?what about Manning throwing 23 INTs in 2001 (his 4th year in the league)?I can't believe I'm defending Michael Vick in this thread. I'd agree with most that say he's been overhyped, but to say he's a poor QB is just silly. There are dozens of QBs who are much worse than him, and do far less to help their team win each week.I'm still waiting for someone to show me a QB who played great during his first year in a WCO.
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Ridiculous? Maybe, maybe not. If you don't think that the NFL would LOVE for McNabb, Vick, Culpepper, McNair, Brooks or any other black quarterback to win a Super Bowl you're crazy. It would help in marketability greatly to have these players be champions. Look at how much they're marketed already and imagine if they were champs. All we hear about are how these new breed of quarterbacks are the future. How they are the best players in the league and this is what it will take for teams to win. Yet every time I look in the chamipionship games all I see are traditional drop back quarterbacks who make smart decisions and don't lose the game for their teams. This isn't a white/black/chineese/mexican comment, this is a calling of bs comment. There are white quarterbacks that can make things happen with their legs as well. How much has McNabb scrambled this year as opposed to past years? What's their record now as compared to the last few years? Look at the BCS Championship the last 5 years. Who's been there? Teams with dropback qb's that don't lose for their team plain and simple. The same with the NFL. Nate Hybl, Ken Dorsey, Craig Krenzel, Matt Mauck, Jason White, Matt Leinart, none of them have the athletic ability of Vick. They've got rings though. Same goes for Favre, Brady, Warner, Dilfer, hell even Montana. The greatest quote I think I've ever heard on this subject came from LSU's Matt Mauck last year, here it is paraphrased,"I know that I'm not even close to being the most athletic guy on this team. It's not my job to be that though. My job is to get the ball to the guys that can make the plays and control the game for us, not lose it by trying to do too much myself. I think that's what a quarterback is." I think that's what a quarterback is as well.
you don't think the NFL could market the hell out of a Manning-Favre Super Bowl?I'm starting to think this thread has passed me by.enjoy your
theories. I'm sure Rush Limbaugh would be proud.
Native
Footballguy
I agree. People have very different ideas of how to measure a great QB. IMO, calling Vick a poor QB because he's a poor passer is like calling Bill Russell a bad center because he was a poor shooter. There are many facets to the game, and you don’t have to be great at ALL of them to be a great player. Vick may not pass like Manning, CPEP or even Kerry Collins, but he is winning; the same way Jason Kidd wins even though he cant shoot – is he an “average” player too? The Falcons record over the years speaks for itself:In 2001, the year before Vick won the starting job, the Falcons finished 7-9. In 2002, with a healthy Vick running the team as a first-time starter, the Falcons went 9-6-1 and beat the Packers in the Playoffs at Lambeau In 2003, with an injured Vick missing most of the year, the Falcons fall to 5-11.In 2004, with a healthy Vick, the Falcons are 11-3.Anyone pushing Big Ben for NFL MVP should also be lobbying for Vick - hes also led his team to a magnificent record, only Vick has been more instrumental in his teams success.As for todays game, Vick was simply amazing - I dont care what the box score reads. He led his team to an early lead and caused fits for a ferocious Panthers D. When the FAlcons coaching staff went conservative on the playcalling, Carolina crawled back into the game. Then with the game on the line, Vick took over and willed the team to victory. Jeez, he doesnt have to break Marino's TD record to be considered a good QB.
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PhatNastyCat
Footballguy
Great Post!!!-PNC
MarshallRob
Footballguy
Why would someone characterize Michael Vick as someone who is an "average QB" with great running/athletic ability? A QB's allowed to run. That can be part of his overall skill set. Elway, Steve Young, Staubach, Tarkenton. They all ran. I'm sure if you go back to the NFL's first few decades, the QB's ran quite a bit. As noted earlier in the thread, Vick's only 24. He's younger than Carr, Leftwich, and Palmer and is probably farther along in his career development than any of them. Can Vick throw the ball right now as well as a Peyton Manning or a Tom Brady? Of course not. But he has plenty of time to improve in that area while those guys are not going to get any better at running with the ball.
Again you focus on those numbers when to only important 'number' is the wins and losses.Vicks stats for the game
But who cares if hes a good passes-great runner or a great passer-good runner or so on and so on...he wins games! He takes average or terrible teams and wins games! Who cares how he does it?!!But the thing is, McNabb wasn't overrated and was at least an above average QB without Owens. He just became elite now.Vick has two good RBs, one of the best receiving TEs in the league, a WR that has been over 1200 yards in his career, a large target in Finneran, a good #3 receiver in White and a 1st round pick in Michael Jenkins.How many weapons does Vick need to throw for more than 165 yards a game? In terms of passing yards, he is behind Rattay, Leftwich, Testaverde, Griese and Collins who have all missed games because of injury. He's barely ahead of Warner and Pennington. Boller, Volek and McCown will problem pass him by the end of the year.He's not a good QB. Great runner from the QB position...of course, but not a good QB. It would take a superstar WR to make him look like an above average QB. He's only thrown over 200 yards 3 times this year. If he wasn't for his running and his high draft status that would have gotten him benched.Heres an idea - why not loan Terrell Owens to Atlanta for weeks 16 & 17 so we can see how good Vick REALLY is? Worked for Mcnabb, and would put a quick end to all the Limbaugh-esque "Vick is overrated" nonsense.
