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Jamal Khashoggi - Journalist Killed in Saudi Consulate (3 Viewers)

timschochet said:
This is a very interesting argument and I've given it a lot of consideration over the past 24 hours, even before you stated it. It is absolutely true that several of our previous Presidents and leaders have quietly, or sometimes not so quietly, allowed some of our allies to commit terrible crimes.  The list is long: Pinochet in Chile, Diem in South Vietnam, Marcos in the Philippines, the Shah in Iran, I could go on and on. There has been tons of hypocrisy in our past, and one could argue (as I'm guessing you do) that we have never been the moral beacon of the world that we pretend to be.

Accepting this line of thinking, the only significant difference with Donald Trump yesterday is that he chose to be explicit in his realpolitik and not pay lip service to the moral idealism that we supposedly represent. But see, I think that lip service is very important. Unlike you, I don't see it as a sham; instead I see it as a goal that we as a nation constantly strive to reach for, even though we often fail.  It is the attempt to reach for a system of international morality that makes us noble. When we give up the attempt, we become unexceptional as a nation.  And that's unacceptable to me. 
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I appreciate that you’re cognizant of that Tim.  I wish I could see it the same way.  Their attempts to uphold human rights are like renovating a house by launching a cruise missile at it.  What they do is intentional and premeditated, so it obfuscates their real motives when they say they ‘fell short,’ or only act in the interest of democracy.  

That’s the thing.  They haven’t ‘failed’ at all.  They have succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.  But because their dreams of dominating the planet are wrapped in the language of human rights, people go on expecting some kind of saving grace from the same interests working against it.  

 
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TobiasFunke said:
Yes, it is. Because Khasoggi is an American journalist, and because he was killed due to his work as a journalist, which has massive ramifications for free speech and the security of Americans abroad. Because Trump is willfully lying to his own people about what happened, undermining the work of his own intelligence service. Because Trump has a personal financial stake in Saudi Arabia that other politicians do not and that further calls into question his judgment on this matter. And for lots of other reasons.

That doesn't mean I approve of how other politicians have dealt with Saudi Arabia. I don't. But acting like this is just more of the same is completely absurd.
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So one American journalist is worth 85k Yemenis...got it..

 
squistion said:
:(

Trump on Saudi Arabia and Jamal Khashoggi:

"Do people really want me to give up hundreds of thousands of jobs? And frankly, if we went by this standard, we wouldn't have anybody as an ally."

(via ABC)

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1065634922780606464
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Why does someone not challenge him on this nonsense.  Prove that there’s 1,000 jobs....hundreds o& thousands...that’s utterly absurd.  

They  just listen to him spew this nonsense and repeat it...which is exactly what this moron wants and needs.  

 
ren hoek said:
By the way, our other special partner murdered Palestinian journalist Yaser Murtaja in cold blood.  Just shot him in broad daylight.  But he didn't work for the Post or have US citizenship, so nobody cared.  
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Dude..just because other awful things happen it shouldn’t make you or allow to ignore what you’re seeing before your face.....to excuse that or minimize that tells me all I need to know about someone.   This was one of the more unbelievable events of my lifetime...for a President of the US to excuse despite facts from his govt that he ignores, and come up with cover for Saudi freaking Arabia....really?  Because of some guns sales?   How is this making America great ?  We’re a joke. 

 
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White House prevents Gina Haspel from briefing Senate on Khashoggi murder

The White House is preventing the CIA director, Gina Haspel, or any other intelligence official from briefing the Senate on the murder of Saudi dissident and Washington Post columnist, Jamal Khashoggi.

The secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, and the defence secretary, James Mattis, are due to give a briefing on US relations with Saudi Arabia to the entire Senate behind closed doors on Wednesday, ahead of a vote that could cut off US support for Riyadh’s military campaign in Yemen.

On a national security issue of such importance, it would be customary for a senior intelligence official to take part. On this occasion, the absence of the intelligence community is all the more glaring, as Haspel travelled to Istanbul to hear audio tapes of Khashoggi’s murder provided by Turkish intelligence, and then briefed Donald Trump.

Officials made it clear that the decision for Haspel not to appear in front of the committee came from the White House.

 
Sinn Fein said:
White House prevents Gina Haspel from briefing Senate on Khashoggi murder

The White House is preventing the CIA director, Gina Haspel, or any other intelligence official from briefing the Senate on the murder of Saudi dissident and Washington Post columnist, Jamal Khashoggi.

The secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, and the defence secretary, James Mattis, are due to give a briefing on US relations with Saudi Arabia to the entire Senate behind closed doors on Wednesday, ahead of a vote that could cut off US support for Riyadh’s military campaign in Yemen.

On a national security issue of such importance, it would be customary for a senior intelligence official to take part. On this occasion, the absence of the intelligence community is all the more glaring, as Haspel travelled to Istanbul to hear audio tapes of Khashoggi’s murder provided by Turkish intelligence, and then briefed Donald Trump.

Officials made it clear that the decision for Haspel not to appear in front of the committee came from the White House.
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That sure is suspicious 

 
Sinn Fein said:
White House prevents Gina Haspel from briefing Senate on Khashoggi murder

The White House is preventing the CIA director, Gina Haspel, or any other intelligence official from briefing the Senate on the murder of Saudi dissident and Washington Post columnist, Jamal Khashoggi.

The secretary of state, Mike Pompeo, and the defence secretary, James Mattis, are due to give a briefing on US relations with Saudi Arabia to the entire Senate behind closed doors on Wednesday, ahead of a vote that could cut off US support for Riyadh’s military campaign in Yemen.

On a national security issue of such importance, it would be customary for a senior intelligence official to take part. On this occasion, the absence of the intelligence community is all the more glaring, as Haspel travelled to Istanbul to hear audio tapes of Khashoggi’s murder provided by Turkish intelligence, and then briefed Donald Trump.

Officials made it clear that the decision for Haspel not to appear in front of the committee came from the White House.
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what a joke... it's because they will show that Trump has lied continuously and there's likely evidence that's far worse than what we've heard to date...

 
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ren hoek said:
This is cheap gr00vus.  First of all, to pretend that this is just a Trump thing, as opposed to a long line of US presidents demonstrating complete fealty to Saudi Arabia is rewriting history.  People acting all surprised by this as if it hasn't been standard US policy for decades.  There's always the unsaid presumption that 'well at least the guys before Trump meant well'.  Trump should be criticized for this but we shouldn't ignore the historical context here. 

Some of us have been posting in the Yemen thread about this stuff for years.  Is Trump's handling of Khashoggi worse than Obama personally greenlighting a policy that made us complicit in the deaths of 85,000 Yemeni children?  Is it really that different from John McCain's grotesque cheerleading for Saudi Arabia, routinely voting against blocking weapons sales, accepting $1M human rights bucks from Saudi Arabia to his foundation, as this board mourned his loss like little schoolgirls?  I guess we should condemn US oligarchs like Bezos and Zuckerberg for parading MBS around on his US world tour, or Thomas Friedman and David Ignatius for using their editorial pages to wipe the Saudi regime's ###?  

Bush, Obama, Trump, I really look at them all the same way.  The only real anomaly here, other than lending credibility to MBS' bogus excuses, is that Trump stated obvious facts- that the US is the deeply entrenched partner of a brutal, repressive, murderous regime, and has been for decades- rather than the usual human rights concern trolling.  
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this is the definition of selective ethics take that to the bank brohans 

 
timschochet said:
She should be...but on the other hand, is there a single senator who doesn’t know who ordered the murder at this point? It’s not exactly like there’s some secret to reveal here. 
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nor is there a doubt the WH is complicit / involved in the cover up continuing with dispatching Haspel.  Why exactly does SA mean so much to us?  I know we mean that much to them but we should never be bowing to freaking SA.

 
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Banger said:
nor is there a doubt the WH is complicit / involved in the cover up continuing with dispatching Haspel.  Why exactly does SA mean so much to us?  I know we mean that much to them but we should never be bowing to freaking SA.
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i always understood it was oil as we used to be the worlds leading importer of oil but with shale that is not even close to the case any longer and they are also a pretty big wall against iran but i have no idea why we give them so much latitude take that to the bank brohans 

 
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Banger said:
nor is there a doubt the WH is complicit / involved in the cover up continuing with dispatching Haspel.  Why exactly does SA mean so much to us?  I know we mean that much to them but we should never be bowing to freaking SA.
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They don't mean that much to "us."  They mean a lot to the 1% ers though.  And that's who runs the country. 

 
Banger said:

this will make Bengazi seem like childs play.
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Benghazi was sort of a perfect storm that could be exploited by conservatives -- terrorist attack / U.S. citizens killed / Hillary somehow connected.

Khashoggi's murder doesn't contain those elements aside from the link to Trump.
 
Phil Mattingly‏  @Phil_Mattingly

The Senate, 63-37, voted to advance the Sanders-Lee resolution to cut off U.S. military assistance to the Saudi war in Yemen. Still a ways to go in the Senate, no immediate future in the House, but quite something to see actual movement on this, and quite a Trump admin rebuke
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:thumbup:

 
It's a long list of what's awful about Trump, but what's awful about Trump right now on this is that we have the WH screwing around with intelligence reporting. That's the lesson from Iraq War runup. That was previously the lesson from Vietnam. We keep doing this. But thankfully here there was bipartisan introspection by the Senate at least. Something more needs to be done, still.

 
French president Macron confronting Salman about this murder was inspiring. I am sure Salman "vehemently denied" having any culpability, but Macron was not having any of it. 

 
Encyclopedia Brown said:
French president Macron confronting Salman about this murder was inspiring. I am sure Salman "vehemently denied" having any culpability, but Macron was not having any of it. 
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who in the world would have ever thought that the US would be jealous of a French leader....opposite world.

 
timschochet said:
Pompeo covers for Trump: 

https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/12/01/politics/mike-pompeo-jamal-khashoggi-cnntv/index.html?r=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F

These guys are such a disgrace. 
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"I have read every piece of intelligence that's in the possession of the United States government," Pompeo said. "And when it is done, when you complete that analysis, there's no direct evidence linking him to the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. That is a accurate statement, it is an important statement, and it is a statement that we are making publicly today."

When asked if the CIA has a high confidence of the de facto Saudi leader's involvement, Pompeo told CNN, "I can't comment on intelligence matters."

:mellow:

 
Henry Ford said:
"I have read every piece of intelligence that's in the possession of the United States government," Pompeo said. "And when it is done, when you complete that analysis, there's no direct evidence linking him to the murder of Jamal Khashoggi. That is a accurate statement, it is an important statement, and it is a statement that we are making publicly today."

When asked if the CIA has a high confidence of the de facto Saudi leader's involvement, Pompeo told CNN, "I can't comment on intelligence matters."

:mellow:
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Yes, and technically there isn’t proof Trump is a Russian asset. Just a whole lot of stuff that points that way. 

 
So a guy that is plotting to overthrow the Saudi regime and knows his messages were being hack goes into the Saudi consulate thinking I’ll just get what I need then I’m out of here?  

 
stlrams said:
So a guy that is plotting to overthrow the Saudi regime and knows his messages were being hack goes into the Saudi consulate thinking I’ll just get what I need then I’m out of here?  
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What are you going on about now? 

Going to justify this and the actions of our own government?

 
stlrams said:
So a guy that is plotting to overthrow the Saudi regime and knows his messages were being hack goes into the Saudi consulate thinking I’ll just get what I need then I’m out of here?  
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I don’t understand. Are you suggesting he deserved to be murdered? Please explain. 

 
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