What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

Jonathan Stewart - Set to Return Week 7 (1 Viewer)

I believe he's healthy now.
Healthy as in ready to play football? Or healthy as in you don't think he'll have another lower leg condition in the near future? The guy's ankles and feet aren't right. Maybe it's because of his mass/speed specs that he subjects his feet/ankles to forces that they cannot withstand, but I don't think he's gone a full calendar year without a condition that needed treatment. No one questions how fast/powerful he is, but if he can't stay on the field to do it, then it doesn't matter. The trend for his lower leg conditions is poor, not good or even improving. Right now he can play football. Would you be surprised if he doesn't finish the game or on Monday morning you read a report about Stewart getting his foot looked at? No one should. Then where did all of your beliefs get you?
There are a lot of sketchy RB2s this year. IF he's healthy now, Stewy has value until one of these leg injuries pops up again. Could be this week, could be in three weeks, could be next season. When healthy, Stewart is a good player and he plays alongside one of the hottest QBs in the league. That fact plus his price tag have my radar humming.

Would it surprise me if Stewy gets hurt this weekend? Not at all.

Would it surprise me if he grabs hold of the primary Car RB duties and finishes somewhere between RB10-20 ROS? Not at all.

This situation is similar to Ryan Matthews from a few weeks ago. These types of guys emerge annually. If you have your ear to the ground and a few churn and burn roster spots, you can exploit them to tremendous advantage at the edges of your starting roster, even if for a just a few weeks of a long season.
a few weeks ago or a few years ago?
both

 
just don't sell it to others like you just plucked a season changing RB off the wire.
His cost in my (redraft) leagues was the last player on my bench for as long as I care to roster him. Low.

My expectation for most likely scenario is another breakdown by season end. My hope is a serviceable RB2 before that happens. The ingredients are there for production from this guy. I'll gamble for a few weeks given the minimal cost to see how things shake.

 
As someone who has long championed Stewart on these boards only to see it blow up in my face year after year after year I'm surprised to see him being positively discussed now. Here are the concerns I have with him and his current situation:

1. He hasn't been healthy since 2011. He was never healthy last season with the ankle injury and he's missed half the season this year. It's been a long time since we've seen a healthy Jonathan Stewart and anytime you're talking about an injury (especially a leg or foot injury to a skill position player) that robs a player of more than a year of health that's a gigantic red flag for me.

2. The myth of DeAngelo Williams not playing well. I don't agree with that at all. Yes he looked bad in Week 7 against the Rams but that same defense just swallowed up Marshawn Lynch even worse. Williams looked very good last week in the win over Tampa Bay. I think the quad injury this week is something legitimate to focus on but I think those saying Williams is fading are looking for a reason to view Stewart in a more positive light when that may not be the case.

3. The Panthers do not trust Stewart to be The Man. If they did, they never would have kept bringing Williams back. It seems clear that while many (myself included) think highly of Stewart's talent, the team itself has refused at every turn (including last season) to make him the unquestioned starter. Why would anyone expect things to be different now if everyone was healthy?

4. If everyone is healthy this backfield is an absolute mess. Williams isn't going away. Tolbert will remain the goal-line vulture (and third-down vulture which is an area where Stewart has a clear advantage over Williams in my opinion) and Cam obviously factors into the running game as well.

I think Stewart is worth picking up and stashing away if you have the roster room to spare. He is a talented guy on a team that appears to be ascending and the starter is currently dealing with an injury which has kept him out of practice so far this week. But picking him up with the hope or belief that he's going to turn into Waiver Wire Gold or even a serviceable fantasy starter given the number of times he has failed to deliver in the past strikes me as a rather wild reach and unrealistic expectation. I know because I've been there with this guy before. So I can relate even if I'm baffled that people seem to be falling for it one more time. :)

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Again - I don't think he was ever healthy in 2012... and his production showed it. 2009-2011 Stewart has been forgotten... but that guy is ultra talented and ultra-productive per touch. If he gets 15+ touches per game (like they said they wanted to do last year when declaring him the starter on this same offense) he'll be a very solid flex with potential for more.
2009-2011 Jonathan Stewart may or may not be back, but the 2009-2011 Carolina Panthers are long gone.

Everyone loves to point to Stewart's YPC back then, but everyone ignores the dominant line and run system that Carolina had in place back then. Stewart has never stood out amongst his teammates in per touch efficiency. Yes, part of that was that DeAngelo Williams is pretty darn good himself, but it's not just limited to Williams. Goodson went step-for-step with him in the season where he was the other guy as well.

YPC by season...

2009

Williams: 5.2

Stewart: 5.1

2010

Goodson: 4.4

Stewart: 4.3

Williams: 4.1

2011

Newton: 5.6

Williams: 5.4

Stewart: 5.4

2012

Newton: 5.8

Williams: 4.3

Stewart: 3.6

Tolbert: 3.4

It's not like this is a Jamaal Charles situation where he's been racking up 2 yards more per carry than his teammates. He's pretty much done what every other Panther RB has done. When the Panther run game as a whole is awesome, he's awesome. When the Panther run game as a whole is OK, he's OK.

I think the days where Jonathan Stewart would be a top 2 fantasy back if he could just get the carries are over. I think we could expect about the same production out of him that DeAngelo's been giving this year. That's not bad, especially at what he currently costs, but it's not earth shattering like the potential we always saw out of him and it requires a lot going right. We've gone from "if he just gets a few more carries he could be the stud I build my team around" to "if he gets more carries AND if he can stay healthy again he might make a good low end RB2 play". The opportunity in Carolina has gone from one of the best spots for an FF RB in the league to one of the worst since that 2009-2010 version of Stewart that we all pine over, and Stewart is a lot more damaged goods himself.

 
Coeur de Lion said:
ex-ghost said:
J Stew won't last the rest of this season. His history of injuries is just too long. It is just too bad, what a talent he (was).
Stewart's injury history is a bit overblown IMO. 2012 and this year have been brutal, obviously, but over his first four years in the league he played in 62 games and only missed two. Yes, durability is a concern, but no moreso than it is for guys like Darren McFadden or DeMarco Murray who still carry strong value in most people's eyes.
Thank you. Didn't have time to look it up, but it's WAY overblown. He got hurt last year... it happens. Prior to that he played, and played well.

I honestly believe his 2012 season was doomed the second he rolled his ankle so badly in the preseason... missed only the first game, and I believe came back too quickly. He never looked the same all year.
"Stewart's injury history isn't bad because he used to be healthy but recently he hasn't been."
I'm not sure how to even respond to this... He got hurt in 2012 - no one disputes that. I believe he's healthy now. No one's questioned the talent when healthy. My comment was related to the fact that I feel like his "injury-prone" label was attached to him prior to last year, and yet he played through it all. So when he gets hurt last year, the "injury-prone" crowd points to that as justifcation for the label. Players get hurt... it happens. Prior to last year, he was a difference maker on the field and only missed 2 of 64 games over his first four seasons. Yet he was still called injury prone.

I understand some saying he left games early or was always questionable... to my recollection (which may be wrong and I haven't looked back to verify) much of that happened last year. You don't play in 62 of 64 games by getting frequently hurt. He didn't practice some weeks, but he still produced on Sundays.

He was hurt last year in training camp (suffered a high ankle sprain), missed week 1, clearly came back too soon, and didn't make an impact at all. He didn't look like the same guy - then he severely sprains the other ankle and it ends his season. If 2009-2011 Stewart is back (and it certianly sounds like he is from everything I've heard out of Charlotte)... sign me up all day.
This reminds me of the same conversation regarding Beanie Wells only missing a few games entering last year.

I've had the pleasure of owning both, and they both grade out fairly equally in that category. Like Beanie, Stewart is a guy where you always worry about his health. A guy where one week, you get bad reports and bench him while he goes off, only to start him next week and have him leave midway through the 2nd quarter. A guy where people in the offseason point to his total numbers and games played and forget that most people only actually got half of those numbers in their lineup as they were constantly playing the start/bench game with him.

Like Beanie, he's been a headache to own. He's had an injury that you had to monitor week in and week out in virtually every season of his career dating back to his freshman year of college even though he's only gotten half a workload in his time in the pros.

 
I dont think anyone thinks Stewart is going to be a savior but does he have some value? Can he produce at the Donald Brown level? The Green-Ellis level?

The running backs around the league are pretty sketchy beyond the top20 and in larger 14-16 team leagues can he have some value down the stretch?

Of course, he can and he can be had for a waiver wire pick in most leagues.

For me the choice this week was between him or Donald Brown because of bye and injury issues. Danegelo likely will play but is banged up. Stewart had fresh legs and Tolbert will likely go back to his fulltime FB role. By all accounts Stewart has looked really good practice, probably better than he looked at any point last year.

Will he get a huge number of carries from the start? Probably not but he does play on a pretty good team who can run the ball somewhat effectively and he should get his share of touches down the stretch and he does have a plus matchup this week. I'll roll the dice with him. Yes it is a gamble but he does have more upside than most waiver wire fodder.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
FreeBaGeL said:
This reminds me of the same conversation regarding Beanie Wells only missing a few games entering last year.I've had the pleasure of owning both, and they both grade out fairly equally in that category. Like Beanie, Stewart is a guy where you always worry about his health. A guy where one week, you get bad reports and bench him while he goes off, only to start him next week and have him leave midway through the 2nd quarter. A guy where people in the offseason point to his total numbers and games played and forget that most people only actually got half of those numbers in their lineup as they were constantly playing the start/bench game with him.

Like Beanie, he's been a headache to own. He's had an injury that you had to monitor week in and week out in virtually every season of his career dating back to his freshman year of college even though he's only gotten half a workload in his time in the pros.
Yes, this is the problem and I say that as a Stewart fan and owner (although I bought extremely low). He's had nagging injuries his entire career it seems like - but this is actually somewhat contradictory with your earlier post about him only being as good as the guys around him. I think it speaks to his talent that he's been able to keep up with healthy players while he's been nursing injuries (usually ankle injuries it seems).

That being said, there's hope that post-surgery he can stay healthy for a few years. Fragile Fred played several healthy seasons in a row after an injury plagued early career. People have soured on Stewart due to the time gap since relevance, but a resurgence is not out of the question here. He's still in his prime and his mileage is low. It'll be interesting to see how he finishes this year and what his role is next year when DeAngelo is 31 (also a relatively low mileage guy for his age).

 
FreeBaGeL said:
This reminds me of the same conversation regarding Beanie Wells only missing a few games entering last year.I've had the pleasure of owning both, and they both grade out fairly equally in that category. Like Beanie, Stewart is a guy where you always worry about his health. A guy where one week, you get bad reports and bench him while he goes off, only to start him next week and have him leave midway through the 2nd quarter. A guy where people in the offseason point to his total numbers and games played and forget that most people only actually got half of those numbers in their lineup as they were constantly playing the start/bench game with him.

Like Beanie, he's been a headache to own. He's had an injury that you had to monitor week in and week out in virtually every season of his career dating back to his freshman year of college even though he's only gotten half a workload in his time in the pros.
Yes, this is the problem and I say that as a Stewart fan and owner (although I bought extremely low). He's had nagging injuries his entire career it seems like - but this is actually somewhat contradictory with your earlier post about him only being as good as the guys around him. I think it speaks to his talent that he's been able to keep up with healthy players while he's been nursing injuries (usually ankle injuries it seems).

That being said, there's hope that post-surgery he can stay healthy for a few years. Fragile Fred played several healthy seasons in a row after an injury plagued early career. People have soured on Stewart due to the time gap since relevance, but a resurgence is not out of the question here. He's still in his prime and his mileage is low. It'll be interesting to see how he finishes this year and what his role is next year when DeAngelo is 31 (also a relatively low mileage guy for his age).
I'm hoping that this is the case. I would like to buy him in the off-season, hoping that he does finally have the health, and opportunity, to be more productive, from a FF perspective.

 
Don't the past blind your outlook for the future. He looked VERY good last week. Had a much better burst than DeAngelo. I think he could end up a VERY sneaky player down the stretch. Yes, Tolbert hurts his value but I see him taking DeAngelo's place as the lead back but with a higher ceiling than anything DeAngelo showed this year.

 
I think a Tolbert injury helps more, as he'll be solid in the passing game. I also think he's much fresher than DeAng and can probably overtake him and become the lead dog

 
Last edited by a moderator:
He looked really good and could be unbelievable if he could:

A: Get 15-20 touches a game

B: Stay healthy

Unfortunately, he's never put the two of the above things together.

You could not think of a worse situation for Stewart. He has a QB who loves to steal goalline touches. You have another RB who always plays around the goalline. Then you have a veteran running back in Deangelo who has been with the team for a long, long time and is not just going to stop getting carries.

It will take an injury for him to become relevant on a consistent basis.

 
Don't the past blind your outlook for the future. He looked VERY good last week. Had a much better burst than DeAngelo. I think he could end up a VERY sneaky player down the stretch. Yes, Tolbert hurts his value but I see him taking DeAngelo's place as the lead back but with a higher ceiling than anything DeAngelo showed this year.
I agree and that is what I am hoping for the rest of the season. I am somehow sitting in 1st in one league, but have been ravaged by injuries, especially at RB2 (Wilson, dropped Ivory weeks ago since he did nothing, Green Ellis has done nothing, etc.). In PPR leagues, he had 9 points on 12 touches. That isn't bad at all IMHO, especially for teams that are like mine where it has been a revolving door at RB2. Give me around 10 points (PPR) every week and I am happy as a clam. Stewart looked good and as you said is fresh. DeAngelo hasn't been what people thought he might be and even last year being hurt, Stewart seemed to get a lot more, especially in the passing game. He had 9 games in 2012 and had 3 good PPR games (11+) and 3 contribute but not good games and 3 bad games all while missing 7 games and clearly being not himself.

I'm not looking for a top 12 ROS RB, I am looking for a give me around 8-12 a game and I am happy RB. I think Stewart has the potential to do that.

 
stbugs said:
JustinHawkins said:
Don't the past blind your outlook for the future. He looked VERY good last week. Had a much better burst than DeAngelo. I think he could end up a VERY sneaky player down the stretch. Yes, Tolbert hurts his value but I see him taking DeAngelo's place as the lead back but with a higher ceiling than anything DeAngelo showed this year.
I agree and that is what I am hoping for the rest of the season. I am somehow sitting in 1st in one league, but have been ravaged by injuries, especially at RB2 (Wilson, dropped Ivory weeks ago since he did nothing, Green Ellis has done nothing, etc.). In PPR leagues, he had 9 points on 12 touches. That isn't bad at all IMHO, especially for teams that are like mine where it has been a revolving door at RB2. Give me around 10 points (PPR) every week and I am happy as a clam. Stewart looked good and as you said is fresh. DeAngelo hasn't been what people thought he might be and even last year being hurt, Stewart seemed to get a lot more, especially in the passing game. He had 9 games in 2012 and had 3 good PPR games (11+) and 3 contribute but not good games and 3 bad games all while missing 7 games and clearly being not himself.

I'm not looking for a top 12 ROS RB, I am looking for a give me around 8-12 a game and I am happy RB. I think Stewart has the potential to do that.
31 other RBs did that last week and 6 teams were on a bye.

 
stbugs said:
JustinHawkins said:
Don't the past blind your outlook for the future. He looked VERY good last week. Had a much better burst than DeAngelo. I think he could end up a VERY sneaky player down the stretch. Yes, Tolbert hurts his value but I see him taking DeAngelo's place as the lead back but with a higher ceiling than anything DeAngelo showed this year.
I agree and that is what I am hoping for the rest of the season. I am somehow sitting in 1st in one league, but have been ravaged by injuries, especially at RB2 (Wilson, dropped Ivory weeks ago since he did nothing, Green Ellis has done nothing, etc.). In PPR leagues, he had 9 points on 12 touches. That isn't bad at all IMHO, especially for teams that are like mine where it has been a revolving door at RB2. Give me around 10 points (PPR) every week and I am happy as a clam. Stewart looked good and as you said is fresh. DeAngelo hasn't been what people thought he might be and even last year being hurt, Stewart seemed to get a lot more, especially in the passing game. He had 9 games in 2012 and had 3 good PPR games (11+) and 3 contribute but not good games and 3 bad games all while missing 7 games and clearly being not himself.

I'm not looking for a top 12 ROS RB, I am looking for a give me around 8-12 a game and I am happy RB. I think Stewart has the potential to do that.
31 other RBs did that last week and 6 teams were on a bye.
And? One of those was Rashad Jennings who had 1 game of more than 4 points the prior 7 weeks. Did you start him last week? One was Darrell Young who had a grand total 2 fantasy points all year before last week. Did you start him? One was LaGarrette Blount, who had 1 game of more than 6 all year. Did you start him? One was Brian Leonard, who had 1 game of 9 or more before last week. Did you start him? One was Shonn Greene, who had 1 point all year before last week. Did you start him?

So out of the 30 RBs in my league that had 9 or more, 5 of them were free agents in most leagues and no one dreamed of starting them. The other 24 (minus my RB1) were owned by other players. Do most teams in your leagues carry no backup RBs.

I appreciate you looking, but my statement still stands, for those of us with a hole at RB2, which amazingly does happen in 12 team leagues, Stewart scoring 9 points is welcome and IMHO a good sign for the ROS.

 
He looked really good and could be unbelievable if he could:

A: Get 15-20 touches a game

B: Stay healthy

Unfortunately, he's never put the two of the above things together.

You could not think of a worse situation for Stewart. He has a QB who loves to steal goalline touches. You have another RB who always plays around the goalline. Then you have a veteran running back in Deangelo who has been with the team for a long, long time and is not just going to stop getting carries.

It will take an injury for him to become relevant on a consistent basis.
Only if you ignore the first 2 3/4 years of his career.

 
He looked really good and could be unbelievable if he could:

A: Get 15-20 touches a game

B: Stay healthy

Unfortunately, he's never put the two of the above things together.

You could not think of a worse situation for Stewart. He has a QB who loves to steal goalline touches. You have another RB who always plays around the goalline. Then you have a veteran running back in Deangelo who has been with the team for a long, long time and is not just going to stop getting carries.

It will take an injury for him to become relevant on a consistent basis.
Only if you ignore the first 2 3/4 years of his career.
It's already been discussed, but playing 16 =/= being healthy. I think we're all hoping for the surgeries to be effective, though. It would be nice to see him put together 2-3 healthy seasons. Can you imagine all the old thread bumping and crow eating that would go down?

 
I don't think anyone argues about jstews physical tools and raw ability. the only things in question are his ability to withstand 20+ and opportunity. both of which have never been there. factor in cam taking at least a handful of goalline runs for himself and Stewarts floor is pretty low and his ceiling is only marginally high if everything clicks at the same time. I'm holding but he's not even close to a recommended flex start.

 
Don't the past blind your outlook for the future. He looked VERY good last week. Had a much better burst than DeAngelo. I think he could end up a VERY sneaky player down the stretch. Yes, Tolbert hurts his value but I see him taking DeAngelo's place as the lead back but with a higher ceiling than anything DeAngelo showed this year.
I agree and that is what I am hoping for the rest of the season. I am somehow sitting in 1st in one league, but have been ravaged by injuries, especially at RB2 (Wilson, dropped Ivory weeks ago since he did nothing, Green Ellis has done nothing, etc.). In PPR leagues, he had 9 points on 12 touches. That isn't bad at all IMHO, especially for teams that are like mine where it has been a revolving door at RB2. Give me around 10 points (PPR) every week and I am happy as a clam. Stewart looked good and as you said is fresh. DeAngelo hasn't been what people thought he might be and even last year being hurt, Stewart seemed to get a lot more, especially in the passing game. He had 9 games in 2012 and had 3 good PPR games (11+) and 3 contribute but not good games and 3 bad games all while missing 7 games and clearly being not himself.

I'm not looking for a top 12 ROS RB, I am looking for a give me around 8-12 a game and I am happy RB. I think Stewart has the potential to do that.
31 other RBs did that last week and 6 teams were on a bye.
And? One of those was Rashad Jennings who had 1 game of more than 4 points the prior 7 weeks. Did you start him last week? One was Darrell Young who had a grand total 2 fantasy points all year before last week. Did you start him? One was LaGarrette Blount, who had 1 game of more than 6 all year. Did you start him? One was Brian Leonard, who had 1 game of 9 or more before last week. Did you start him? One was Shonn Greene, who had 1 point all year before last week. Did you start him?

So out of the 30 RBs in my league that had 9 or more, 5 of them were free agents in most leagues and no one dreamed of starting them. The other 24 (minus my RB1) were owned by other players. Do most teams in your leagues carry no backup RBs.

I appreciate you looking, but my statement still stands, for those of us with a hole at RB2, which amazingly does happen in 12 team leagues, Stewart scoring 9 points is welcome and IMHO a good sign for the ROS.
I didn't start any of those guys and didn't pick Stewart who happens to be still available. Comfortable with SJax/Murray/Ridley/Vereen/Bell. Stewart is ranked #43 this week in ppr by Dodds. Apparently he feels like there are better options available. I can see how he might be attractive if you are desperate, however I'd rather roll the dice on a guy like Jennings this week and hit the wire again next week to find another fill in if needed. My problem with Stewart is that his upside is so limited and he still carries downside risk. DWill will get his carries and Tolbert/Cam are huge threats at the goal line. If it's an either or situation, I'd go with the guy similar to Stewart who has a clearer path to upside.

 
I like his chances to withstand 20 plus now that we are halfway through the season and defenses are beat up already and he's as fresh as a daisy.

I think he continues to build his case this week

 
jonathan stewart reminds me of this old band saw i had out in the garage it was always broke and i got it from the shop when they were honest to god throwing it out they said if you want that pile of crap you go right ahead and take it so i threw in the trunk of my old fury and took her home and i spent a while getting her straight and all cleaned up and spent some bucks on a new blade and tensioned everything just so and bam i start that sucker up and she throws the blade and breaks it and so i weld it back together and put it back on and it works but not really but it cut one nice peace and then bam it breaks again and i ran a blue streak like you would not believe and i just said you know what forget about this thing and there she sat for a couple of months but then i thought man i did make it all shiny lets get her working again so i put that blade on and got her going again and bam son of a you know what it throws the blade again and snaps it and i put that thing over in the corner and for years its been sitting there it looks shiny all right but it never works and it sure does not do much and that my friends if how i feel about the old cat jon stewart he is heavy like a band saw and sits in the corner of my garage take that to the bank brohans

 
jonathan stewart reminds me of this old band saw i had out in the garage it was always broke and i got it from the shop when they were honest to god throwing it out they said if you want that pile of crap you go right ahead and take it so i threw in the trunk of my old fury and took her home and i spent a while getting her straight and all cleaned up and spent some bucks on a new blade and tensioned everything just so and bam i start that sucker up and she throws the blade and breaks it and so i weld it back together and put it back on and it works but not really but it cut one nice peace and then bam it breaks again and i ran a blue streak like you would not believe and i just said you know what forget about this thing and there she sat for a couple of months but then i thought man i did make it all shiny lets get her working again so i put that blade on and got her going again and bam son of a you know what it throws the blade again and snaps it and i put that thing over in the corner and for years its been sitting there it looks shiny all right but it never works and it sure does not do much and that my friends if how i feel about the old cat jon stewart he is heavy like a band saw and sits in the corner of my garage take that to the bank brohans
You forgot the period at the end.

 
jonathan stewart reminds me of this old band saw i had out in the garage it was always broke and i got it from the shop when they were honest to god throwing it out they said if you want that pile of crap you go right ahead and take it so i threw in the trunk of my old fury and took her home and i spent a while getting her straight and all cleaned up and spent some bucks on a new blade and tensioned everything just so and bam i start that sucker up and she throws the blade and breaks it and so i weld it back together and put it back on and it works but not really but it cut one nice peace and then bam it breaks again and i ran a blue streak like you would not believe and i just said you know what forget about this thing and there she sat for a couple of months but then i thought man i did make it all shiny lets get her working again so i put that blade on and got her going again and bam son of a you know what it throws the blade again and snaps it and i put that thing over in the corner and for years its been sitting there it looks shiny all right but it never works and it sure does not do much and that my friends if how i feel about the old cat jon stewart he is heavy like a band saw and sits in the corner of my garage take that to the bank brohans
You forgot the period at the end.
You made it to the end?

 
jonathan stewart reminds me of this old band saw i had out in the garage it was always broke and i got it from the shop when they were honest to god throwing it out they said if you want that pile of crap you go right ahead and take it so i threw in the trunk of my old fury and took her home and i spent a while getting her straight and all cleaned up and spent some bucks on a new blade and tensioned everything just so and bam i start that sucker up and she throws the blade and breaks it and so i weld it back together and put it back on and it works but not really but it cut one nice peace and then bam it breaks again and i ran a blue streak like you would not believe and i just said you know what forget about this thing and there she sat for a couple of months but then i thought man i did make it all shiny lets get her working again so i put that blade on and got her going again and bam son of a you know what it throws the blade again and snaps it and i put that thing over in the corner and for years its been sitting there it looks shiny all right but it never works and it sure does not do much and that my friends if how i feel about the old cat jon stewart he is heavy like a band saw and sits in the corner of my garage take that to the bank brohans
:goodposting:

 
He looked really good and could be unbelievable if he could:

A: Get 15-20 touches a game

B: Stay healthy

Unfortunately, he's never put the two of the above things together.

You could not think of a worse situation for Stewart. He has a QB who loves to steal goalline touches. You have another RB who always plays around the goalline. Then you have a veteran running back in Deangelo who has been with the team for a long, long time and is not just going to stop getting carries.

It will take an injury for him to become relevant on a consistent basis.
Only if you ignore the first 2 3/4 years of his career.
Um...I don't understand how you can debate what I said factually. He has been criminally under-used for the majority of his career. Even when healthy, as he was early, he wasn't used all that much. He has a career high of 221 carries in a season, which is less than the 15-20 touches I mentioned.

 
He looked really good and could be unbelievable if he could:

A: Get 15-20 touches a game

B: Stay healthy

Unfortunately, he's never put the two of the above things together.

You could not think of a worse situation for Stewart. He has a QB who loves to steal goalline touches. You have another RB who always plays around the goalline. Then you have a veteran running back in Deangelo who has been with the team for a long, long time and is not just going to stop getting carries.

It will take an injury for him to become relevant on a consistent basis.
Only if you ignore the first 2 3/4 years of his career.
Um...I don't understand how you can debate what I said factually. He has been criminally under-used for the majority of his career. Even when healthy, as he was early, he wasn't used all that much. He has a career high of 221 carries in a season, which is less than the 15-20 touches I mentioned.
You said he's never put the two together. That's not true. Both he and Williams had a year over 1100 yards rushing just a few years ago. To do that you have to put both together :shrug:

 
He looked really good and could be unbelievable if he could:

A: Get 15-20 touches a game

B: Stay healthy

Unfortunately, he's never put the two of the above things together.

You could not think of a worse situation for Stewart. He has a QB who loves to steal goalline touches. You have another RB who always plays around the goalline. Then you have a veteran running back in Deangelo who has been with the team for a long, long time and is not just going to stop getting carries.

It will take an injury for him to become relevant on a consistent basis.
Only if you ignore the first 2 3/4 years of his career.
Um...I don't understand how you can debate what I said factually. He has been criminally under-used for the majority of his career. Even when healthy, as he was early, he wasn't used all that much. He has a career high of 221 carries in a season, which is less than the 15-20 touches I mentioned.
You said he's never put the two together. That's not true. Both he and Williams had a year over 1100 yards rushing just a few years ago. To do that you have to put both together :shrug:
I think what he's saying is that he's never had a season where he's averaged 15 touches per game. Came very close once, not close any other time.

 
He looked really good and could be unbelievable if he could:

A: Get 15-20 touches a game

B: Stay healthy

Unfortunately, he's never put the two of the above things together.

You could not think of a worse situation for Stewart. He has a QB who loves to steal goalline touches. You have another RB who always plays around the goalline. Then you have a veteran running back in Deangelo who has been with the team for a long, long time and is not just going to stop getting carries.

It will take an injury for him to become relevant on a consistent basis.
Only if you ignore the first 2 3/4 years of his career.
Um...I don't understand how you can debate what I said factually. He has been criminally under-used for the majority of his career. Even when healthy, as he was early, he wasn't used all that much. He has a career high of 221 carries in a season, which is less than the 15-20 touches I mentioned.
You said he's never put the two together. That's not true. Both he and Williams had a year over 1100 yards rushing just a few years ago. To do that you have to put both together :shrug:
I think what he's saying is that he's never had a season where he's averaged 15 touches per game. Came very close once, not close any other time.
Is he ignoring the targets for passes?

 
He looked really good and could be unbelievable if he could:

A: Get 15-20 touches a game

B: Stay healthy

Unfortunately, he's never put the two of the above things together.

You could not think of a worse situation for Stewart. He has a QB who loves to steal goalline touches. You have another RB who always plays around the goalline. Then you have a veteran running back in Deangelo who has been with the team for a long, long time and is not just going to stop getting carries.

It will take an injury for him to become relevant on a consistent basis.
Only if you ignore the first 2 3/4 years of his career.
Um...I don't understand how you can debate what I said factually. He has been criminally under-used for the majority of his career. Even when healthy, as he was early, he wasn't used all that much. He has a career high of 221 carries in a season, which is less than the 15-20 touches I mentioned.
You said he's never put the two together. That's not true. Both he and Williams had a year over 1100 yards rushing just a few years ago. To do that you have to put both together :shrug:
I think what he's saying is that he's never had a season where he's averaged 15 touches per game. Came very close once, not close any other time.
Is he ignoring the targets for passes?
Targets or catches? If you combine his carries and receptions, he's never averaged more than 15 touches per game for a season (just under his second year).

 
He looked really good and could be unbelievable if he could:

A: Get 15-20 touches a game

B: Stay healthy

Unfortunately, he's never put the two of the above things together.

You could not think of a worse situation for Stewart. He has a QB who loves to steal goalline touches. You have another RB who always plays around the goalline. Then you have a veteran running back in Deangelo who has been with the team for a long, long time and is not just going to stop getting carries.

It will take an injury for him to become relevant on a consistent basis.
Only if you ignore the first 2 3/4 years of his career.
Um...I don't understand how you can debate what I said factually. He has been criminally under-used for the majority of his career. Even when healthy, as he was early, he wasn't used all that much. He has a career high of 221 carries in a season, which is less than the 15-20 touches I mentioned.
You said he's never put the two together. That's not true. Both he and Williams had a year over 1100 yards rushing just a few years ago. To do that you have to put both together :shrug:
I think what he's saying is that he's never had a season where he's averaged 15 touches per game. Came very close once, not close any other time.
Is he ignoring the targets for passes?
Targets or catches? If you combine his carries and receptions, he's never averaged more than 15 touches per game for a season (just under his second year).
In a discussion like this I typically look at targets to get the most accurate picture of how much they are attempting to use a player. That's just me though I guess

 
jonathan stewart reminds me of this old band saw i had out in the garage it was always broke and i got it from the shop when they were honest to god throwing it out they said if you want that pile of crap you go right ahead and take it so i threw in the trunk of my old fury and took her home and i spent a while getting her straight and all cleaned up and spent some bucks on a new blade and tensioned everything just so and bam i start that sucker up and she throws the blade and breaks it and so i weld it back together and put it back on and it works but not really but it cut one nice peace and then bam it breaks again and i ran a blue streak like you would not believe and i just said you know what forget about this thing and there she sat for a couple of months but then i thought man i did make it all shiny lets get her working again so i put that blade on and got her going again and bam son of a you know what it throws the blade again and snaps it and i put that thing over in the corner and for years its been sitting there it looks shiny all right but it never works and it sure does not do much and that my friends if how i feel about the old cat jon stewart he is heavy like a band saw and sits in the corner of my garage take that to the bank brohans
I don't agree with it, but I like it. This guy needs a weekly article, but not if they spoil the material by providing him an editor. Punctuation has no place here.

Stewart has had ankle problems his whole career, or so it seems. So he is like the band saw. For the last couple years they've tried to polish him up, but what really needed to happen was to send him back to the factory and get him properly refurbished. So last season they pulled him off the shelf and put in an RMA. He went under the knife, took his time coming back, and now he looks like a hybrid of Tolbert and DeAngelo out there.

We get to see how he looks for the rest of the year. If he stays healthy but low key (stats-wise) in a 3-way running attack, I think he'll be a good guy to target next year on the hope that the surgery was successful and he'll be healthy for a few seasons. DeAngelo will be 31. Tolbert will be 10 pounds heavier like he is every year. He'll be primed to pull off a Ricky Williams (long gap between 1000 yard seasons).

 
Don't the past blind your outlook for the future. He looked VERY good last week. Had a much better burst than DeAngelo. I think he could end up a VERY sneaky player down the stretch. Yes, Tolbert hurts his value but I see him taking DeAngelo's place as the lead back but with a higher ceiling than anything DeAngelo showed this year.
I agree and that is what I am hoping for the rest of the season. I am somehow sitting in 1st in one league, but have been ravaged by injuries, especially at RB2 (Wilson, dropped Ivory weeks ago since he did nothing, Green Ellis has done nothing, etc.). In PPR leagues, he had 9 points on 12 touches. That isn't bad at all IMHO, especially for teams that are like mine where it has been a revolving door at RB2. Give me around 10 points (PPR) every week and I am happy as a clam. Stewart looked good and as you said is fresh. DeAngelo hasn't been what people thought he might be and even last year being hurt, Stewart seemed to get a lot more, especially in the passing game. He had 9 games in 2012 and had 3 good PPR games (11+) and 3 contribute but not good games and 3 bad games all while missing 7 games and clearly being not himself.

I'm not looking for a top 12 ROS RB, I am looking for a give me around 8-12 a game and I am happy RB. I think Stewart has the potential to do that.
31 other RBs did that last week and 6 teams were on a bye.
And? One of those was Rashad Jennings who had 1 game of more than 4 points the prior 7 weeks. Did you start him last week? One was Darrell Young who had a grand total 2 fantasy points all year before last week. Did you start him? One was LaGarrette Blount, who had 1 game of more than 6 all year. Did you start him? One was Brian Leonard, who had 1 game of 9 or more before last week. Did you start him? One was Shonn Greene, who had 1 point all year before last week. Did you start him?

So out of the 30 RBs in my league that had 9 or more, 5 of them were free agents in most leagues and no one dreamed of starting them. The other 24 (minus my RB1) were owned by other players. Do most teams in your leagues carry no backup RBs.

I appreciate you looking, but my statement still stands, for those of us with a hole at RB2, which amazingly does happen in 12 team leagues, Stewart scoring 9 points is welcome and IMHO a good sign for the ROS.
Update?

I have him at #46 with two teams still to play and two teams on a bye. Kind of reminds of Ingram on a team that scores fewer points.

Also he fumbled yesterday at a critical time. I don't think it's enough to damage his touches at the moment, but it's something to keep an eye on.

 
Don't the past blind your outlook for the future. He looked VERY good last week. Had a much better burst than DeAngelo. I think he could end up a VERY sneaky player down the stretch. Yes, Tolbert hurts his value but I see him taking DeAngelo's place as the lead back but with a higher ceiling than anything DeAngelo showed this year.
I agree and that is what I am hoping for the rest of the season. I am somehow sitting in 1st in one league, but have been ravaged by injuries, especially at RB2 (Wilson, dropped Ivory weeks ago since he did nothing, Green Ellis has done nothing, etc.). In PPR leagues, he had 9 points on 12 touches. That isn't bad at all IMHO, especially for teams that are like mine where it has been a revolving door at RB2. Give me around 10 points (PPR) every week and I am happy as a clam. Stewart looked good and as you said is fresh. DeAngelo hasn't been what people thought he might be and even last year being hurt, Stewart seemed to get a lot more, especially in the passing game. He had 9 games in 2012 and had 3 good PPR games (11+) and 3 contribute but not good games and 3 bad games all while missing 7 games and clearly being not himself.

I'm not looking for a top 12 ROS RB, I am looking for a give me around 8-12 a game and I am happy RB. I think Stewart has the potential to do that.
31 other RBs did that last week and 6 teams were on a bye.
And? One of those was Rashad Jennings who had 1 game of more than 4 points the prior 7 weeks. Did you start him last week? One was Darrell Young who had a grand total 2 fantasy points all year before last week. Did you start him? One was LaGarrette Blount, who had 1 game of more than 6 all year. Did you start him? One was Brian Leonard, who had 1 game of 9 or more before last week. Did you start him? One was Shonn Greene, who had 1 point all year before last week. Did you start him?

So out of the 30 RBs in my league that had 9 or more, 5 of them were free agents in most leagues and no one dreamed of starting them. The other 24 (minus my RB1) were owned by other players. Do most teams in your leagues carry no backup RBs.

I appreciate you looking, but my statement still stands, for those of us with a hole at RB2, which amazingly does happen in 12 team leagues, Stewart scoring 9 points is welcome and IMHO a good sign for the ROS.
Update?

I have him at #46 with two teams still to play and two teams on a bye. Kind of reminds of Ingram on a team that scores fewer points.

Also he fumbled yesterday at a critical time. I don't think it's enough to damage his touches at the moment, but it's something to keep an eye on.
I picked him up and he's on my bench, but he still had more carries than Dwill and Tolbert combined. Is that a bad thing? I think you missed my main point, for folks like me with a hole at RB2 (Donald Brown is starting for me this week, not bad so far), Stewart is a nice option to have. He won't be playing @ SF every week, but if he is getting 10+ carries and some receptions per game, he could be a nice add. I certainly am not thinking he is going to win me games by himself, but I see him getting 8-12 points in good match ups.

 
J.Stew vs. Percy this week in my bye week 11 flex dilemma. Car. vs. a week Pats run D or Mr. Harvin finally making an appearance having sat on my bench for six weeks against his old team. Decisions,decisions???

 
stbugs said:
Don't the past blind your outlook for the future. He looked VERY good last week. Had a much better burst than DeAngelo. I think he could end up a VERY sneaky player down the stretch. Yes, Tolbert hurts his value but I see him taking DeAngelo's place as the lead back but with a higher ceiling than anything DeAngelo showed this year.
I agree and that is what I am hoping for the rest of the season. I am somehow sitting in 1st in one league, but have been ravaged by injuries, especially at RB2 (Wilson, dropped Ivory weeks ago since he did nothing, Green Ellis has done nothing, etc.). In PPR leagues, he had 9 points on 12 touches. That isn't bad at all IMHO, especially for teams that are like mine where it has been a revolving door at RB2. Give me around 10 points (PPR) every week and I am happy as a clam. Stewart looked good and as you said is fresh. DeAngelo hasn't been what people thought he might be and even last year being hurt, Stewart seemed to get a lot more, especially in the passing game. He had 9 games in 2012 and had 3 good PPR games (11+) and 3 contribute but not good games and 3 bad games all while missing 7 games and clearly being not himself.

I'm not looking for a top 12 ROS RB, I am looking for a give me around 8-12 a game and I am happy RB. I think Stewart has the potential to do that.
31 other RBs did that last week and 6 teams were on a bye.
And? One of those was Rashad Jennings who had 1 game of more than 4 points the prior 7 weeks. Did you start him last week? One was Darrell Young who had a grand total 2 fantasy points all year before last week. Did you start him? One was LaGarrette Blount, who had 1 game of more than 6 all year. Did you start him? One was Brian Leonard, who had 1 game of 9 or more before last week. Did you start him? One was Shonn Greene, who had 1 point all year before last week. Did you start him?

So out of the 30 RBs in my league that had 9 or more, 5 of them were free agents in most leagues and no one dreamed of starting them. The other 24 (minus my RB1) were owned by other players. Do most teams in your leagues carry no backup RBs.

I appreciate you looking, but my statement still stands, for those of us with a hole at RB2, which amazingly does happen in 12 team leagues, Stewart scoring 9 points is welcome and IMHO a good sign for the ROS.
Update?

I have him at #46 with two teams still to play and two teams on a bye. Kind of reminds of Ingram on a team that scores fewer points.

Also he fumbled yesterday at a critical time. I don't think it's enough to damage his touches at the moment, but it's something to keep an eye on.
I picked him up and he's on my bench, but he still had more carries than Dwill and Tolbert combined. Is that a bad thing? I think you missed my main point, for folks like me with a hole at RB2 (Donald Brown is starting for me this week, not bad so far), Stewart is a nice option to have. He won't be playing @ SF every week, but if he is getting 10+ carries and some receptions per game, he could be a nice add. I certainly am not thinking he is going to win me games by himself, but I see him getting 8-12 points in good match ups.
So basically you had a hole at RB2 where you would like to see 9 points. You picked him up and didn't deem him worth starting over your other options.

That was my point, he's not worth a starting spot except in rare instances. If you aren't going to play him, you would be much better off with another RB on your bench that has some upside.

 
stbugs said:
Don't the past blind your outlook for the future. He looked VERY good last week. Had a much better burst than DeAngelo. I think he could end up a VERY sneaky player down the stretch. Yes, Tolbert hurts his value but I see him taking DeAngelo's place as the lead back but with a higher ceiling than anything DeAngelo showed this year.
I agree and that is what I am hoping for the rest of the season. I am somehow sitting in 1st in one league, but have been ravaged by injuries, especially at RB2 (Wilson, dropped Ivory weeks ago since he did nothing, Green Ellis has done nothing, etc.). In PPR leagues, he had 9 points on 12 touches. That isn't bad at all IMHO, especially for teams that are like mine where it has been a revolving door at RB2. Give me around 10 points (PPR) every week and I am happy as a clam. Stewart looked good and as you said is fresh. DeAngelo hasn't been what people thought he might be and even last year being hurt, Stewart seemed to get a lot more, especially in the passing game. He had 9 games in 2012 and had 3 good PPR games (11+) and 3 contribute but not good games and 3 bad games all while missing 7 games and clearly being not himself.

I'm not looking for a top 12 ROS RB, I am looking for a give me around 8-12 a game and I am happy RB. I think Stewart has the potential to do that.
31 other RBs did that last week and 6 teams were on a bye.
And? One of those was Rashad Jennings who had 1 game of more than 4 points the prior 7 weeks. Did you start him last week? One was Darrell Young who had a grand total 2 fantasy points all year before last week. Did you start him? One was LaGarrette Blount, who had 1 game of more than 6 all year. Did you start him? One was Brian Leonard, who had 1 game of 9 or more before last week. Did you start him? One was Shonn Greene, who had 1 point all year before last week. Did you start him?

So out of the 30 RBs in my league that had 9 or more, 5 of them were free agents in most leagues and no one dreamed of starting them. The other 24 (minus my RB1) were owned by other players. Do most teams in your leagues carry no backup RBs.

I appreciate you looking, but my statement still stands, for those of us with a hole at RB2, which amazingly does happen in 12 team leagues, Stewart scoring 9 points is welcome and IMHO a good sign for the ROS.
Update?

I have him at #46 with two teams still to play and two teams on a bye. Kind of reminds of Ingram on a team that scores fewer points.

Also he fumbled yesterday at a critical time. I don't think it's enough to damage his touches at the moment, but it's something to keep an eye on.
I picked him up and he's on my bench, but he still had more carries than Dwill and Tolbert combined. Is that a bad thing? I think you missed my main point, for folks like me with a hole at RB2 (Donald Brown is starting for me this week, not bad so far), Stewart is a nice option to have. He won't be playing @ SF every week, but if he is getting 10+ carries and some receptions per game, he could be a nice add. I certainly am not thinking he is going to win me games by himself, but I see him getting 8-12 points in good match ups.
So basically you had a hole at RB2 where you would like to see 9 points. You picked him up and didn't deem him worth starting over your other options.

That was my point, he's not worth a starting spot except in rare instances. If you aren't going to play him, you would be much better off with another RB on your bench that has some upside.
I actually think I like his upside. He has 25 touches (12 and 13) the last two weeks. He was a good start (as a hole at RB2) against the Falcons and a bad start last week. Brown only had 15 touches and was beyond my expectations last night. I played a hunch and got lucky. I actually feel pretty good about Stewart as a spot starter and that is pretty much what I need. If you have a hole at RB2, that would be the only reason to even discuss Stewart and why I am. Despite the injury, he is actually pretty fresh and when he is getting the most carries (more than DWill and Tolbert combined) in a huge 1 point win at SF, that seems like positive news to me. Brown plays Arizona next week, the #1 run D according to FBG's and Stewart plays Miami, the #31 run D, so IMHO, that is upside. The week after it is reversed so Brown is back in. Throw in Ogbonnaya and I have a 3 headed craptastically fantastic RB2 monster.

 
What RB's would you start him over this week? Would you start him over MJD? Over Leonard? Over Sproles? I like the matchup and kind of have a hunch this could be coming out party on Monday night.

 
What RB's would you start him over this week? Would you start him over MJD? Over Leonard? Over Sproles? I like the matchup and kind of have a hunch this could be coming out party on Monday night.
Leonard might be the only one. I got lucky with Brown thinking that the good matchup would benefit him more then Richardson. MJD and Sproles have RB1 upside (I am in all PPR, so Sproles is higher in my eyes), so I would start them. Leonard is in a weird situation where Tampa sucks so bad that they could just decide to give Rainey a look and give him all the touches one week. If you are in PPR, then Leonard and Stewart could be very closely ranked. Ignore the game at SF and look at the previous game, Stewart was 3-22 in the passing game. For whatever reason, I think Rivera has always favored Stewart over DWill in the passing game, so in PPR leagues even the past couple years Stewart was a decent start when healthy. If you think Brady will have a good game, Stewart could get a nice amount of receptions.

 
What RB's would you start him over this week? Would you start him over MJD? Over Leonard? Over Sproles? I like the matchup and kind of have a hunch this could be coming out party on Monday night.
Leonard might be the only one. I got lucky with Brown thinking that the good matchup would benefit him more then Richardson. MJD and Sproles have RB1 upside (I am in all PPR, so Sproles is higher in my eyes), so I would start them. Leonard is in a weird situation where Tampa sucks so bad that they could just decide to give Rainey a look and give him all the touches one week. If you are in PPR, then Leonard and Stewart could be very closely ranked. Ignore the game at SF and look at the previous game, Stewart was 3-22 in the passing game. For whatever reason, I think Rivera has always favored Stewart over DWill in the passing game, so in PPR leagues even the past couple years Stewart was a decent start when healthy. If you think Brady will have a good game, Stewart could get a nice amount of receptions.
Thanks for the response. I agree with most of it except MJD matchup scary this week. don't see the RB1 upside.

 
What RB's would you start him over this week? Would you start him over MJD? Over Leonard? Over Sproles? I like the matchup and kind of have a hunch this could be coming out party on Monday night.
Well he finished as #78 in ppr this week so I'd start him over Starks (-0.1 pts)

115 RBs listed in the stats column this week. 29 didn't have a touch. 8 performed worse than Stewart.

 
So basically you had a hole at RB2 where you would like to see 9 points. You picked him up and didn't deem him worth starting over your other options.

That was my point, he's not worth a starting spot except in rare instances. If you aren't going to play him, you would be much better off with another RB on your bench that has some upside.
I actually think I like his upside. He has 25 touches (12 and 13) the last two weeks. He was a good start (as a hole at RB2) against the Falcons and a bad start last week. Brown only had 15 touches and was beyond my expectations last night. I played a hunch and got lucky. I actually feel pretty good about Stewart as a spot starter and that is pretty much what I need. If you have a hole at RB2, that would be the only reason to even discuss Stewart and why I am. Despite the injury, he is actually pretty fresh and when he is getting the most carries (more than DWill and Tolbert combined) in a huge 1 point win at SF, that seems like positive news to me. Brown plays Arizona next week, the #1 run D according to FBG's and Stewart plays Miami, the #31 run D, so IMHO, that is upside. The week after it is reversed so Brown is back in. Throw in Ogbonnaya and I have a 3 headed craptastically fantastic RB2 monster.
My definition of upside is not having 3 guys in front of you getting the same or more rushing attempts. I suspect Stewart will have a good game or two, but good luck figuring that out.

 
So basically you had a hole at RB2 where you would like to see 9 points. You picked him up and didn't deem him worth starting over your other options.

That was my point, he's not worth a starting spot except in rare instances. If you aren't going to play him, you would be much better off with another RB on your bench that has some upside.
I actually think I like his upside. He has 25 touches (12 and 13) the last two weeks. He was a good start (as a hole at RB2) against the Falcons and a bad start last week. Brown only had 15 touches and was beyond my expectations last night. I played a hunch and got lucky. I actually feel pretty good about Stewart as a spot starter and that is pretty much what I need. If you have a hole at RB2, that would be the only reason to even discuss Stewart and why I am. Despite the injury, he is actually pretty fresh and when he is getting the most carries (more than DWill and Tolbert combined) in a huge 1 point win at SF, that seems like positive news to me. Brown plays Arizona next week, the #1 run D according to FBG's and Stewart plays Miami, the #31 run D, so IMHO, that is upside. The week after it is reversed so Brown is back in. Throw in Ogbonnaya and I have a 3 headed craptastically fantastic RB2 monster.
My definition of upside is not having 3 guys in front of you getting the same or more rushing attempts. I suspect Stewart will have a good game or two, but good luck figuring that out.
Yeah, I was a little excited from the first game having owned him years before as an effective RB2 (with DWill), but he is firmly on my bench now behind Brown and Ogbonnaya for the RB2 slot. After the first two games, even with only 13 PPR points, I thought he had a chance to be effective with 25 touches. 4 touches isn't going to get anything done.

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top