Mark Ingram (1 Viewer)

[RavenLunatic]

This may be one of the most polarizing players from 2011.

Many of us were persuaded to draft or acquire Mark Ingram in 2011. Comparisons to Emmit Smith and Curtis Martin were frequent from FBG.

Removing situation (as it changes but not talent), who is the real Mark Ingram?

I have never seen so much confidence in a prospect as what I read (Waldman) or heard (Lammey and Bloom) from FBG. While they were off regarding production in 2011, what do we think 2012 and beyond will bring?

Please share your scouting report vs "he's a bust", overrated or "HOF"

What do you like, dislike, love or hate about his game in the NFL?

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

I think he is a good talent, but a bit slow.

Unfortunately for him, he has a coach who loves to rotate backs, and Sproles will be the primary backfield pass catcher for the next few years.

His talent should relagate Pierre/Ivory to backup status but he has to stay healthy

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I was one who wrote "Curtis Martin" like so I definitely was disappointed. I also believe part of the problem is the coaching staff in New Orleans. The plays do not allow for a RB to really get much of a rhythm going. In fact every time they touch the ball they run to the sideline so the next guy can have a go at it...it sounds good in theory that you want to keep your backs healthy but the proof is in the pudding. Not many of the RBs in New Orleans have found great success. Darren Sproles was pretty good overall but he rarely touched the ball on hand offs. He was almost a WR and sometimes he disappeared from game plans.

So overall I am disappointed but I also am disappointed in the coaching staff and you saw Reggie Bush have his best season ever in the NFL with a vastly inferior team around him in Miami, why couldn't that happen in New Orleans? So I blame some of this on the coaching staff as much as I would Ingram himself.

 

[jacobo_moses]

I was one who wrote "Curtis Martin" like so I definitely was disappointed. I also believe part of the problem is the coaching staff in New Orleans. The plays do not allow for a RB to really get much of a rhythm going. In fact every time they touch the ball they run to the sideline so the next guy can have a go at it...it sounds good in theory that you want to keep your backs healthy but the proof is in the pudding. Not many of the RBs in New Orleans have found great success. Darren Sproles was pretty good overall but he rarely touched the ball on hand offs. He was almost a WR and sometimes he disappeared from game plans. So overall I am disappointed but I also am disappointed in the coaching staff and you saw Reggie Bush have his best season ever in the NFL with a vastly inferior team around him in Miami, why couldn't that happen in New Orleans? So I blame some of this on the coaching staff as much as I would Ingram himself.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I bought in too and overspent in teh draft to get him.

As a Saints fan I think it was worth it from a football perspective. They returned to a commitment to the run game, which they needed to do, they ended 6th or so in rushing up from something like 31st I think....

Ivory did not catch one pass all year. He does not have that dimension.

No training camp, Ingram was oft-injured, he went on IR just as he was catching on.

And though he did ok with the TDs, 5 in 12 games, he was not the force at the goalline people were wanting or expecting. I thought there would be some 2+ TD games and that was where the value would be, but he did not have one.

This year perhaps with a full training camp and better conditioning he does better. Hopefully Nicks stays, which is important, and maybe they upgrade the center and fullback position (likely not but in my opinion it would help). Still considering how great the Saints have been in mining talent you wonder why they never get the Demarco Murray or MJD in the 2nd-3rd rounds in all this time and they may not have struck true gold here, but we will have to wait iuntil end of next year to know for sure.

As for Bush, he was under Daboll as OC in Miami. Daboll did the same thing for Hillis, but both the Dolphins and Browns 2010 were losing teams. Obviously Bush can run better than he did with the Saints but let's see how he looks under Philbin and no Daboll, I'm betting he has a big dropoff.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

I've been on the anti-Ingram bandwagon for the longest time. I just don't think Ingram has the athletic ability(3 star recruit out of HS if I remember correctly) to succeed at the NFL level. He isn't fast or overly quick, doesn't have great agility, etc. He has solid vision and runs hard that's it IMO. NFL boys are bigger, faster, and the holes close up too quickly for him.

Other reason:

Alabama is a powerhouse since Saban took over and that hurts the evaluation of RBs. They have better OL vs most DL's, better skills players that make defenses not stack the line, etc. Ingram performed well at Bama, but so did Trent Richardson, now Eddie Lacy has averaged 7.3 and 7.1 YPC his first two years. Is it the RB's or is it Alabama?

 

[RBM]

I was one who wrote "Curtis Martin" like so I definitely was disappointed. I also believe part of the problem is the coaching staff in New Orleans. The plays do not allow for a RB to really get much of a rhythm going. In fact every time they touch the ball they run to the sideline so the next guy can have a go at it...it sounds good in theory that you want to keep your backs healthy but the proof is in the pudding. Not many of the RBs in New Orleans have found great success. Darren Sproles was pretty good overall but he rarely touched the ball on hand offs. He was almost a WR and sometimes he disappeared from game plans. So overall I am disappointed but I also am disappointed in the coaching staff and you saw Reggie Bush have his best season ever in the NFL with a vastly inferior team around him in Miami, why couldn't that happen in New Orleans? So I blame some of this on the coaching staff as much as I would Ingram himself.

Spot on

 

[Luke Skywalker]

Not many of the RBs in New Orleans have found great success.

In terms of bulk numbers, correct. But in real football terms, this is very far from the truth. Thomas and Ivory both have career averages right around 5 yards per carry. Thomas has been one of the very best receiving/screen backs in the NFL. Sproles performance this year was lacking in nothing. Hell even Mike Bell had a very solid year in his only season there.The simple truth is that Sean Payton doesn't give a crap about anybody's fantasy teams. He will continue to rotate backs on a down-by-down basis because it's what is best for his team. Draft accordingly.

 

[Jeff Tefertiller]

One other thing to consider is that Ingram, Thomas, and Sproles are all under contract for three more seasons. Add in Ivory and it is difficult to imagine a huge role for Ingram (or any other Saint RB) in the near future.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

One other thing to consider is that Ingram, Thomas, and Sproles are all under contract for three more seasons. Add in Ivory and it is difficult to imagine a huge role for Ingram (or any other Saint RB) in the near future.

This too

 

[rockaction]

I've been on the anti-Ingram bandwagon for the longest time. I just don't think Ingram has the athletic ability(3 star recruit out of HS if I remember correctly) to succeed at the NFL level. He isn't fast or overly quick, doesn't have great agility, etc. He has solid vision and runs hard that's it IMO. NFL boys are bigger, faster, and the holes close up too quickly for him.Other reason:Alabama is a powerhouse since Saban took over and that hurts the evaluation of RBs. They have better OL vs most DL's, better skills players that make defenses not stack the line, etc. Ingram performed well at Bama, but so did Trent Richardson, now Eddie Lacy has averaged 7.3 and 7.1 YPC his first two years. Is it the RB's or is it Alabama?

This. I just posted essentially the same thing in the other thread, down to the "vision" thing. That's like saying that a hockey player will be the next Gretzky because he sees the rink like him. That quality doesn't seem to me like a quality you want to be hanging your hat upon. Eyes don't lie. This dude looks slow, slower, and slowest.

 

[Skeletore Eh]

I've been on the anti-Ingram bandwagon for the longest time. I just don't think Ingram has the athletic ability(3 star recruit out of HS if I remember correctly) to succeed at the NFL level. He isn't fast or overly quick, doesn't have great agility, etc. He has solid vision and runs hard that's it IMO. NFL boys are bigger, faster, and the holes close up too quickly for him.Other reason:Alabama is a powerhouse since Saban took over and that hurts the evaluation of RBs. They have better OL vs most DL's, better skills players that make defenses not stack the line, etc. Ingram performed well at Bama, but so did Trent Richardson, now Eddie Lacy has averaged 7.3 and 7.1 YPC his first two years. Is it the RB's or is it Alabama?

This. I just posted essentially the same thing in the other thread, down to the "vision" thing. That's like saying that a hockey player will be the next Gretzky because he sees the rink like him. That quality doesn't seem to me like a quality you want to be hanging your hat upon. Eyes don't lie. This dude looks slow, slower, and slowest.

I just don't agree with him looking slow at all. Sure he doesn't have the best top end speed but the guy is has all the explosiveness needed to get through holes. Along with his rugged running style I don't see how he's not going to be a productive runner for the saints. Maybe he won't be a productive fantasy player next year because of the saints usage of rbs, but owning a guy like jstew isn't exactly a bad thing. And let's not forget that Pierre Thomas staying healthy this season wasn't the norm. If he were to go down I could see Ingram being atleast a solid rb2 with the uptick in carries. I think Ingram is an obvious buy low if he can be had at a good price and those that do sell will be disappointed in due time.

 

[NorrisB]

I think he's a bust. He reminds me of Knowshon Moreno here was a guy highly touted by FBG's Bloom and Waldman despite the fact that he had sub par athleticism. It's not just that he's a plodder with little talent, he cant handle the load, for him to get injured that many times on 12 carries a game is just laughable. At this point I would just sell him for a loss.

 

[MAC_32]

One comment from Payton sticks out in my mind from in-season. To paraphrase - this kid's a special back and his production would match if he weren't on this team.

He's going to be cheap next year so I'll take the plunge again. Real curious what Pierre's contract is like because if the Saints can get out of it or trade him after 2012 I could see that. Then Ingram and Sproles can terrorize going forward.

 

[identikit]

One comment from Payton sticks out in my mind from in-season. To paraphrase - this kid's a special back and his production would match if he weren't on this team.

He's going to be cheap next year so I'll take the plunge again. Real curious what Pierre's contract is like because if the Saints can get out of it or trade him after 2012 I could see that. Then Ingram and Sproles can terrorize going forward.

On PT's contract:The four-year deal averages $2.8 million per season.



The Saints didn’t give Thomas a signing bonus, but they structured the deal to include something similar. Thomas’ $640,000 base salary for this season is guaranteed, and he’ll also get a $2.7 million roster bonus. Unlike a lot of deals, this one isn’t back loaded. Thomas’ biggest salary-cap hit will come this year when his figure is $3.4 million.



In 2012, Thomas’ base salary will jump to $2.16 million and $860,000 of that is guaranteed. He also has a $100,00 workout bonus, and his cap figure will be $2.6 million.



In 2013, Thomas’ base salary will be $2.1 million. He’ll also have a $300,000 roster bonus and a $100,000 workout bonus. His cap figure will be $2.5 million.



In 2014, the base salary will be $2.5 million. Thomas has a $300,000 roster bonus and a $100,000 workout bonus. His cap figure will be $2.9 million.



http://espn.go.com/b...thomas-contract

 

[Ministry of Pain]

One comment from Payton sticks out in my mind from in-season. To paraphrase - this kid's a special back and his production would match if he weren't on this team.

He's going to be cheap next year so I'll take the plunge again. Real curious what Pierre's contract is like because if the Saints can get out of it or trade him after 2012 I could see that. Then Ingram and Sproles can terrorize going forward.

On PT's contract:The four-year deal averages $2.8 million per season.



The Saints didn’t give Thomas a signing bonus, but they structured the deal to include something similar. Thomas’ $640,000 base salary for this season is guaranteed, and he’ll also get a $2.7 million roster bonus. Unlike a lot of deals, this one isn’t back loaded. Thomas’ biggest salary-cap hit will come this year when his figure is $3.4 million.



In 2012, Thomas’ base salary will jump to $2.16 million and $860,000 of that is guaranteed. He also has a $100,00 workout bonus, and his cap figure will be $2.6 million.



In 2013, Thomas’ base salary will be $2.1 million. He’ll also have a $300,000 roster bonus and a $100,000 workout bonus. His cap figure will be $2.5 million.



In 2014, the base salary will be $2.5 million. Thomas has a $300,000 roster bonus and a $100,000 workout bonus. His cap figure will be $2.9 million.



http://espn.go.com/b...thomas-contract

This sounds like a good contract for all involved. He doesn't become overly costly and the team can part ways without a huge cap hit.

 

[Luke Skywalker]

He's going to be cheap next year so I'll take the plunge again. Real curious what Pierre's contract is like because if the Saints can get out of it or trade him after 2012 I could see that. Then Ingram and Sproles can terrorize going forward.

I can't see why the Saints would have any motivation to trade Thomas. Certainly not to satisfy the wishes of fantasy football players. 3 million a year is a steal for a player of his talent.The Saints running back situation is certain to be exactly the same in 2012 and beyond as it was in 2011. The players may change, but there will probably always be a three-way split. If you don't like the situation, don't draft the players.

 

[MAC_32]

He's going to be cheap next year so I'll take the plunge again. Real curious what Pierre's contract is like because if the Saints can get out of it or trade him after 2012 I could see that. Then Ingram and Sproles can terrorize going forward.

I can't see why the Saints would have any motivation to trade Thomas. Certainly not to satisfy the wishes of fantasy football players. 3 million a year is a steal for a player of his talent.The Saints running back situation is certain to be exactly the same in 2012 and beyond as it was in 2011. The players may change, but there will probably always be a three-way split. If you don't like the situation, don't draft the players.

Thomas is a good but not great player without any glaring weaknesses on a very team friendly contract. After seeing the numbers I don't think he'd be cut...but he could be an interesting trade piece. Ivory's quality play post injury gives even more room for optimism. New Orleans has been snake bit in the past because of lack of RB depth so I understand their over correction this year. Problem is they have lots of holes to fill throughout their lineup. Given Ingram's current market value I'd pursue him in dyno if you're looking for a RB3 that has RB1 upside. It's not like you'd have t give up a core piece to get Ingram right now. Nothing may happen, but there's certainly reason to believe it could and it won't cost much to find out.

 

[Synesthesia]

I was one who wrote "Curtis Martin" like so I definitely was disappointed. I also believe part of the problem is the coaching staff in New Orleans. The plays do not allow for a RB to really get much of a rhythm going. In fact every time they touch the ball they run to the sideline so the next guy can have a go at it...it sounds good in theory that you want to keep your backs healthy but the proof is in the pudding. Not many of the RBs in New Orleans have found great success. Darren Sproles was pretty good overall but he rarely touched the ball on hand offs. He was almost a WR and sometimes he disappeared from game plans. So overall I am disappointed but I also am disappointed in the coaching staff and you saw Reggie Bush have his best season ever in the NFL with a vastly inferior team around him in Miami, why couldn't that happen in New Orleans? So I blame some of this on the coaching staff as much as I would Ingram himself.

You blame the coaching staff? Their job is to win football games, not to win you a fantasy championship. When last I checked, the New Orleans Saints were busy breaking many of the most hallowed offensive records of all time, so I think the coaching staff had their offense figured out just fine. I also heard that Sproles guy might have had a halfway decent season.What works for the New Orleans Saints and what works for Mark Ingram owners are two different things right now. Good news for the Saints, bad news for Mark Ingram owners.

 

[Jason Wood]

I wrote a very detailed Spotlight articulating why I thought Ingram's role in New Orleans would be vastly different than the "RBBC" everyone said was Payton's normal course of business.

Certainly we can spend a lot of time dissecting his touches, the injury situation and whether things would've gone the way they did if he was 100% healthy. But that's all noise at this point. The simple fact is the Saints had a massively potent offense this year and did so by using a ton of different players in the backfield. Do I think Ingram has the ability to be a workhorse? Yes. Did I expect that ability would supersede Payton's prior RB touch allocations? Yes.

Was I wrong? ABSOLUTELY.

At this point, you can't reasonably expect Ingram's career to resemble what many -- myself included -- hoped for. But that said the NFL is a tough business and there are always injuries. So I wouldn't be shocked if Ingram happens into a heavier role again at some point, but my days of thinking he would demand 20+ touches per game, on sheer ability, are numbered to say the least.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Ingram was a classic case of people creating selling points because they liked a guy rather than liking a guy because of his selling points.

Most of the arguments backing Ingram last offseason (Payton wants a featured back but just hasn't had anyone good enough before now, the Saints didn't draft him in the 1st round to be in a RBBC, the Saints are going to become a much more run focused team, Ingram will get tons of goaline work because he's the bulkier back, etc) were wholly and completely fabricated, often in the face of hard evidence to the contrary.

I never saw anything in the preseason or regular season that made me think Ingram is a more talented back than Pierre Thomas. That's not to say he won't be, or that he doesn't run with the job if Pierre misses some time to injury or something like that, but thusfar I've seen no reason for the Saints to get him the ball more at Pierre's expense. Clearly they're not looking for a guy to hammer the ball 25 times a game while their QB simply manages the game and that seems to be the only thing Ingram has over Thomas (if he even has that, as he's already missed a fair amount of time the last few years for a guy that's supposed to have much of his value predicated on him being a workhorse). Even worse, it certainly seems patently obvious that Sproles is going nowhere and will continue to have a huge role going forward.

That said, Ingram's value is so low right now he's worth taking a shot on. I was a huge critic last offseason but I'm looking to buy on the cheap this offseason just for the upside. He's at best a 2-down back but a 2-down back on the Saints could still be quite a commodity on the chance that Pierre goes down and/or Ingram is able to run away with the job. If he were in this year's rookie draft where would he be drafted? Mid/late 1st round? I'd sell a pick like that for him as those guys are just as much of a longshot.

 

[Grahamburn]

One other thing to consider is that Ingram, Thomas, and Sproles are all under contract for three more seasons. Add in Ivory and it is difficult to imagine a huge role for Ingram (or any other Saint RB) in the near future.

This too

Not really sure why so many couldn't figure this out before the season started.

 

[scrumptrulescent]

Other reason:Alabama is a powerhouse since Saban took over and that hurts the evaluation of RBs. They have better OL vs most DL's, better skills players that make defenses not stack the line, etc. Ingram performed well at Bama, but so did Trent Richardson, now Eddie Lacy has averaged 7.3 and 7.1 YPC his first two years. Is it the RB's or is it Alabama?

So you're saying it's the system and personnel in Alabama? There are many I've read on this board that would totally disagree with you because they believe Richardson is the best RB since Adrian Peterson and will make an immediate impact wherever he lands.

 

[SacramentoBob]

He's Curtis Martin like. 2005 Curtis Martin.

 

[jacobo_moses]

I thought this was interesting. Saw it on a NO Saints webpage.

•Mark Ingram has been a hot topic this off-season and feelings seem to be divided as to whether the running back was worth drafting in the first round. Sound familiar? I'm really starting to worry that we've got another one of them Reggie Bush situations happening all over again. Personally, as hard as it may be to believe, I trust Sean Payton when he admitted to holding Ingram back and keeping him from being Rookie of the Year. That's the most important piece of evidence in this entire discussion. If not, be sure to buckle up for four more years of constant arguing and strife in Who Dat Nation.

 

[Grahamburn]

I thought this was interesting. Saw it on a NO Saints webpage.

•Mark Ingram has been a hot topic this off-season and feelings seem to be divided as to whether the running back was worth drafting in the first round. Sound familiar? I'm really starting to worry that we've got another one of them Reggie Bush situations happening all over again. Personally, as hard as it may be to believe, I trust Sean Payton when he admitted to holding Ingram back and keeping him from being Rookie of the Year. That's the most important piece of evidence in this entire discussion. If not, be sure to buckle up for four more years of constant arguing and strife in Who Dat Nation.

Fair enough, but he'll continue to be held back as long as Thomas and Sproles are still there. He's going to be a productive RB, but his value to the Saints will be exponentially higher than it will for fantasy teams.

 

[DansRams]

I have stayed out of the Ingram discussion as I have generally disagreed with the common view that he is a semibust to bust as a 1.01/1.02 rookie pick.

Because of the many strong opinions in here, I decided to watch/spend many hours studying his first year in the league. What I saw was a 21 yr old kid, that showed very good quickness, balance,power and vision. The lack of long speed is well documented, but I didn't see one play in the entire season where it made a difference. In other words I came away from watching him thinking the same way I felt about him when he was coming into the draft.

I then tried to identify the factors that led to his "below expectation" rookie season.

Factors:

- Like many rookies, the lack of camp hurt. With Ingram, I think it hurt more from the perspective of the Saints building in game plans, that fit his strengths, more than him learning the system/getting used to the speed of the NFL.....although both had an impact.

- Another factor was the great play of Sproles and the solid play of Thomas. This lead to a shared backfield and Ingram only having 6 games with 13 or more carries....and even in those games he rarely was allowed to get into rhythm, with more than 2 or 3 plays in a row before coming out of the game.

- One thing on film I did notice was a lack of patience in his rookie year that I didnt see in college. I think this is likely the result of trying to do too much, which is understandable considering the limited touches and rookie enthusiasm.

All of this lead me to wonder how he did when he was more involved in the offense.

In the 6 games he had 13 or more carries he had 87 carries for 371 yards for a 4.26 ypc average. I the games he had less...35 for 103n for 2.9 ypc. This "coincidence" doesnt proove anything, but it is not shocking either. Many rb's through the years have needed more reps to excel. Add that, to a rookie who is eager to prove himself, and the lack of patience becomes a factor.

Next I decided to look at what the combination of Ingram, Thomas and Ivory did. I didnt include Sproles as I dont see Ingram taking on any part of that role.

The trio had 311 carries for 1410 yds and 10 tds, plus 61 rec for 471 yds and a td. I then projected Ingram to get 80% of that role next year. The reason why? He is the most talented of the 3 rb's. If you are going to use a ypc carry arguement against this pov, please dont bother. I could just as easily point out several ypc examples that would easily dispute any point you would try to make. The fact is, the Saints (who know more than you or I) traded up to draft him when they already had Thomas and Ivory, so they clearly agree.

If Ingram takes over 80% of that role next yr the numbers end up 249 carries for 1128 yds 8 tds, 49 rec for 377 yds and a td. This puts a 22 yr old rb at low end rb1/high end rb2 ppr points.

Will it happen? That is certainly the question. Is it possible enough that the Ingram doubters ought to rethink their pov? I think so.

Here is my view. I think the Saints/Peyton will use this offseason to design ways to make Ingram a much bigger part of the offense and Peyton will not "hold back" his talented young rb next yr. Patient Ingram Dynasty owners and savy buy low, new Ingram owners will be rewarded with a rb1/rb2 for the season and an rb who will be ranked as an rb1 on most dynasty rankings at this time next year.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

I have stayed out of the Ingram discussion as I have generally disagreed with the common view that he is a semibust to bust as a 1.01/1.02 rookie pick.Because of the many strong opinions in here, I decided to watch/spend many hours studying his first year in the league. What I saw was a 21 yr old kid, that showed very good quickness, balance,power and vision. The lack of long speed is well documented, but I didn't see one play in the entire season where it made a difference. In other words I came away from watching him thinking the same way I felt about him when he was coming into the draft.I then tried to identify the factors that led to his "below expectation" rookie season.Factors: - Like many rookies, the lack of camp hurt. With Ingram, I think it hurt more from the perspective of the Saints building in game plans, that fit his strengths, more than him learning the system/getting used to the speed of the NFL.....although both had an impact.- Another factor was the great play of Sproles and the solid play of Thomas. This lead to a shared backfield and Ingram only having 6 games with 13 or more carries....and even in those games he rarely was allowed to get into rhythm, with more than 2 or 3 plays in a row before coming out of the game.- One thing on film I did notice was a lack of patience in his rookie year that I didnt see in college. I think this is likely the result of trying to do too much, which is understandable considering the limited touches and rookie enthusiasm.All of this lead me to wonder how he did when he was more involved in the offense.In the 6 games he had 13 or more carries he had 87 carries for 371 yards for a 4.26 ypc average. I the games he had less...35 for 103n for 2.9 ypc. This "coincidence" doesnt proove anything, but it is not shocking either. Many rb's through the years have needed more reps to excel. Add that, to a rookie who is eager to prove himself, and the lack of patience becomes a factor.Next I decided to look at what the combinations of Ingram, Thomas and Ivory did. I didnt incude Sproles as I dont see Ingram taking on any part of that role.The trio had 311 carries for 1410 yds and 10 tds, plus 61 rec for 471 yds and a td. I then projected Ingram to get 80% of that role next year. The reason why? He is the most talented of the 3 rb's. If you are going to use a ypc carry arguement against this pov, please dont bother. I could just as easily point out several ypc examples that would easily dispute any point you would try to make. The fact is, the Saints (who know more than you or I) traded up to draft im when they already had Thomas and Ivory, so they clearly agree.If Ingram takes over 80% of that role next yr the numbers end up 249 carries for 1128 yds 8 tds, 49 rec for 377 yds and a td. This puts a 22 yr old rb at low end rb1/high end rb2 ppr points.Will it happen? That is certainly the question. Is it possible enough that the Ingram doubters ought to rethink their pov? I think so.Here is my view. I think the Saints/Peyton will use this offseason to design ways to make Ingram a much bigger part of the offense and Peyton will not "hold back" his talented young rb next yr. Patient Ingram Dynasty owners and savy buy low, new Ingram owners will be rewarded with a rb1/rb2 for the season and an rb who will be ranked as an rb1 on most dynasty rankings at this time next year.

Well thought out post.However, I have a few issues.1) You're projecting Ingram to have 249 carries in 2012. The New Orleans Saints haven't had a RB do that since 2006, Sean Payton's 1st year as HC. Perhaps he doesn't like to give that many carries to just 1 guy.2) You're projecting Ingram to average 4.53 YPC, he averaged 3.9 this past season. That's a big jump.3) You ignored that Ingram was injured often his rookie season. Is that just going to go away? He hasn't been completely healthy the last 2 years.4) If the Saints lose Carl Nicks, that OL won't be as good run blocking either.5) Mark Ingram is more talented than Pierre Thomas/Chris Ivory to expect an 80% load of those carries? Thomas/Ivory are more athletic than Ingram.

 

[Grahamburn]

The trio had 311 carries for 1410 yds and 10 tds, plus 61 rec for 471 yds and a td. I then projected Ingram to get 80% of that role next year. The reason why? He is the most talented of the 3 rb's. If you are going to use a ypc carry arguement against this pov, please dont bother. I could just as easily point out several ypc examples that would easily dispute any point you would try to make. The fact is, the Saints (who know more than you or I) traded up to draft him when they already had Thomas and Ivory, so they clearly agree.

Wouldn't he have been the most talented player in his rookie season as well? I bet the sentence "They traded up to draft him!" must have been used 100 times in his 2011 player spotlight as a reason why he'd have 1,500 yards and 15 TDs.

If Ingram takes over 80% of that role next yr the numbers end up 249 carries for 1128 yds 8 tds, 49 rec for 377 yds and a td. This puts a 22 yr old rb at low end rb1/high end rb2 ppr points.

So the Saints are going to simply wear Ingram out while they have two capable players holding their helmets on the sideline? This is the same mistake Ingram backers were making last year. There are only so many RB touches to go around in that offense, and even fewer for the RBs that actually run the ball. Ingram won't sniff those numbers unless Thomas/Ivory get hurt or released.

Here is my view. I think the Saints/Peyton will use this offseason to design ways to make Ingram a much bigger part of the offense and Peyton will not "hold back" his talented young rb next yr. Patient Ingram Dynasty owners and savy buy low, new Ingram owners will be rewarded with a rb1/rb2 for the season and an rb who will be ranked as an rb1 on most dynasty rankings at this time next year.

There were all kinds of reports about how great Ingram looked in camp last year. I don't think the lack of a full off season halted him in any way. I don't disagree that Payton will design ways to get Ingram the ball more often in 2012, but it still won't be enough to appease fantasy owners.

 

[DansRams]

I have stayed out of the Ingram discussion as I have generally disagreed with the common view that he is a semibust to bust as a 1.01/1.02 rookie pick.Because of the many strong opinions in here, I decided to watch/spend many hours studying his first year in the league. What I saw was a 21 yr old kid, that showed very good quickness, balance,power and vision. The lack of long speed is well documented, but I didn't see one play in the entire season where it made a difference. In other words I came away from watching him thinking the same way I felt about him when he was coming into the draft.I then tried to identify the factors that led to his "below expectation" rookie season.Factors: - Like many rookies, the lack of camp hurt. With Ingram, I think it hurt more from the perspective of the Saints building in game plans, that fit his strengths, more than him learning the system/getting used to the speed of the NFL.....although both had an impact.- Another factor was the great play of Sproles and the solid play of Thomas. This lead to a shared backfield and Ingram only having 6 games with 13 or more carries....and even in those games he rarely was allowed to get into rhythm, with more than 2 or 3 plays in a row before coming out of the game.- One thing on film I did notice was a lack of patience in his rookie year that I didnt see in college. I think this is likely the result of trying to do too much, which is understandable considering the limited touches and rookie enthusiasm.All of this lead me to wonder how he did when he was more involved in the offense.In the 6 games he had 13 or more carries he had 87 carries for 371 yards for a 4.26 ypc average. I the games he had less...35 for 103n for 2.9 ypc. This "coincidence" doesnt proove anything, but it is not shocking either. Many rb's through the years have needed more reps to excel. Add that, to a rookie who is eager to prove himself, and the lack of patience becomes a factor.Next I decided to look at what the combinations of Ingram, Thomas and Ivory did. I didnt incude Sproles as I dont see Ingram taking on any part of that role.The trio had 311 carries for 1410 yds and 10 tds, plus 61 rec for 471 yds and a td. I then projected Ingram to get 80% of that role next year. The reason why? He is the most talented of the 3 rb's. If you are going to use a ypc carry arguement against this pov, please dont bother. I could just as easily point out several ypc examples that would easily dispute any point you would try to make. The fact is, the Saints (who know more than you or I) traded up to draft im when they already had Thomas and Ivory, so they clearly agree.If Ingram takes over 80% of that role next yr the numbers end up 249 carries for 1128 yds 8 tds, 49 rec for 377 yds and a td. This puts a 22 yr old rb at low end rb1/high end rb2 ppr points.Will it happen? That is certainly the question. Is it possible enough that the Ingram doubters ought to rethink their pov? I think so.Here is my view. I think the Saints/Peyton will use this offseason to design ways to make Ingram a much bigger part of the offense and Peyton will not "hold back" his talented young rb next yr. Patient Ingram Dynasty owners and savy buy low, new Ingram owners will be rewarded with a rb1/rb2 for the season and an rb who will be ranked as an rb1 on most dynasty rankings at this time next year.

Well thought out post.However, I have a few issues.1) You're projecting Ingram to have 249 carries in 2012. The New Orleans Saints haven't had a RB do that since 2006, Sean Payton's 1st year as HC. Perhaps he doesn't like to give that many carries to just 1 guy.2) You're projecting Ingram to average 4.53 YPC, he averaged 3.9 this past season. That's a big jump.3) You ignored that Ingram was injured often his rookie season. Is that just going to go away? He hasn't been completely healthy the last 2 years.4) If the Saints lose Carl Nicks, that OL won't be as good run blocking either.5) Mark Ingram is more talented than Pierre Thomas/Chris Ivory to expect an 80% load of those carries? Thomas/Ivory are more athletic than Ingram.

All great points1) I think Payton would have an RB carry the load if he feels he has one...I think he and the Saints view Ingram that ways and that is why they drafted him.2) I agree the ypc jump is large, but I pointed out the 4.26 ypc in games with 13+ carries for a reason...btw Emmitt 3.9 to 4.3 and Tomlinson 3.6 to 4.5. I know that isnt a great arguement but neither is "That's a big jump"3) Injury is a question that time can only answer. I agree that it is a question, but it is a question that many of the currently ranked as rb1, rb's carry with them.4) Carl Nicks is a concern, but I think they resign him and Brees and let Colston go.5) Yes, I believe Ingram is that talented and I also believe the Saints agree. I'm not sure I agree with "Thomas/Ivory are more athletic than Ingram" or if it even makes a difference.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

So the Saints are going to simply wear Ingram out while they have two capable players holding their helmets on the sideline? This is the same mistake Ingram backers were making last year. There are only so many RB touches to go around in that offense, and even fewer for the RBs that actually run the ball. Ingram won't sniff those numbers unless Thomas/Ivory get hurt or released.

I think what people are forgetting is that Ivory was a healthy inactive for most of the season where both he and Ingram were healthy. I don't think Ivory is a threat to Ingram at all - but I do agree that your general point may be correct and he still has to fight Thomas and Sproles for the limited touches (and especially carries) that the Saint backs get.With that said though, Ingram's role can increase at Thomas' expense if he starts to put it together early in the season.

 

[DansRams]

I bet the sentence "They traded up to draft him!" must have been used 100 times in his 2011 player spotlight as a reason why he'd have 1,500 yards and 15 TDs.

Not sure this means anything to me as I am looking forward to this season and I am not projecting 1500/15...but it is a fact that they traded up to get him and Payton admitted to holding him back

So the Saints are going to simply wear Ingram out while they have two capable players holding their helmets on the sideline? This is the same mistake Ingram backers were making last year. There are only so many RB touches to go around in that offense, and even fewer for the RBs that actually run the ball. Ingram won't sniff those numbers unless Thomas/Ivory get hurt or released.

249 carries is wearing him out? We can argue if he will get this type of workload till the sun stops coming up, but it won't matter. I think he will and you don't....fair enough

There were all kinds of reports about how great Ingram looked in camp last year. I don't think the lack of a full off season halted him in any way. I don't disagree that Payton will design ways to get Ingram the ball more often in 2012, but it still won't be enough to appease fantasy owners.

...and IMO you will be one of the owners wishing you bought low.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

1) I think Payton would have an RB carry the load if he feels he has one...

I'll ask the same thing I asked last offseason. Why?Sean Payton has had two tremendous workhorse running backs (Deuce McAllister and Tiki Barber) and he used both in a RBBCs. When other coaches had their hands on those same guys they were workhorse studs.

Sean Payton has had two running backs that were drafted in the top 10 overall in the NFL draft while he was there, and both were used in RBBCs.

The idea that Sean Payton only uses RBBC because he has to is a HUGE leap, and one that people continue to make no matter how much evidence to the contrary gets slammed in their face. No one here knows whether Sean Payton actually prefers RBBC or a workhorse back, but there is a pretty hefty lump of evidence that supports the idea that he prefers RBBC as a philosophy (not just based on his players). Meanwhile, there is zero, zilch, absolutely not a shred of evidence that he wants or has ever wanted a guy to be a workhorse back, even when he's been handed one on a sliver platter.

 

[DansRams]

1) I think Payton would have an RB carry the load if he feels he has one...

I'll ask the same thing I asked last offseason. Why?Sean Payton has had two tremendous workhorse running backs (Deuce McAllister and Tiki Barber) and he used both in a RBBCs. When other coaches had their hands on those same guys they were workhorse studs.

Sean Payton has had two running backs that were drafted in the top 10 overall in the NFL draft while he was there, and both were used in RBBCs.

The idea that Sean Payton only uses RBBC because he has to is a HUGE leap, and one that people continue to make no matter how much evidence to the contrary gets slammed in their face. No one here knows whether Sean Payton actually prefers RBBC or a workhorse back, but there is a pretty hefty lump of evidence that supports the idea that he prefers RBBC as a philosophy (not just based on his players). Meanwhile, there is zero, zilch, absolutely not a shred of evidence that he wants or has ever wanted a guy to be a workhorse back, even when he's been handed one on a sliver platter.

Who said it wouldnt be an RBBC? I just assumed it moves from a 4 RB RBBC (Ingram, Sproles, Thomas, Ivory) to more of a traditional 2 rb rbbc (Ingram and Sproles)and the other 20% of the touches that went to Ingram/Thomas/Ivory going to the 3rd rb....How is this all that different from what Peyton has done in the past?

Edit: BTW, using PThomas/R Bush domintaed backfields as an example of what Payton would do with Ingram seems shortsighted

 

[Grahamburn]

I bet the sentence "They traded up to draft him!" must have been used 100 times in his 2011 player spotlight as a reason why he'd have 1,500 yards and 15 TDs.

Not sure this means anything to me as I am looking forward to this season and I am not projecting 1500/15...but it is a fact that they traded up to get him and Payton admitted to holding him back

So the Saints are going to simply wear Ingram out while they have two capable players holding their helmets on the sideline? This is the same mistake Ingram backers were making last year. There are only so many RB touches to go around in that offense, and even fewer for the RBs that actually run the ball. Ingram won't sniff those numbers unless Thomas/Ivory get hurt or released.

249 carries is wearing him out? We can argue if he will get this type of workload till the sun stops coming up, but it won't matter. I think he will and you don't....fair enough

There were all kinds of reports about how great Ingram looked in camp last year. I don't think the lack of a full off season halted him in any way. I don't disagree that Payton will design ways to get Ingram the ball more often in 2012, but it still won't be enough to appease fantasy owners.

...and IMO you will be one of the owners wishing you bought low.

Just pointing out that "they traded up to draft him" isn't really a great predictor of future success.249 carries isn't too many, yet only 13 guys managed to do that in the NFL this past season. You also projected Ingram for an additional 49 receptions though. To me, yeah, that's wearing him out. 298 total touches with Thomas, Sproles, and Ivory on the roster? It just doesn't make much sense to me.I'm always willing to buy low. What's the going rate for Ingram in a dynasty league? I doubt the guy who spent the 1.1 on him is really giving him away for peanuts right now.

 

[DansRams]

I bet the sentence "They traded up to draft him!" must have been used 100 times in his 2011 player spotlight as a reason why he'd have 1,500 yards and 15 TDs.

Not sure this means anything to me as I am looking forward to this season and I am not projecting 1500/15...but it is a fact that they traded up to get him and Payton admitted to holding him back

So the Saints are going to simply wear Ingram out while they have two capable players holding their helmets on the sideline? This is the same mistake Ingram backers were making last year. There are only so many RB touches to go around in that offense, and even fewer for the RBs that actually run the ball. Ingram won't sniff those numbers unless Thomas/Ivory get hurt or released.

249 carries is wearing him out? We can argue if he will get this type of workload till the sun stops coming up, but it won't matter. I think he will and you don't....fair enough

There were all kinds of reports about how great Ingram looked in camp last year. I don't think the lack of a full off season halted him in any way. I don't disagree that Payton will design ways to get Ingram the ball more often in 2012, but it still won't be enough to appease fantasy owners.

...and IMO you will be one of the owners wishing you bought low.

Just pointing out that "they traded up to draft him" isn't really a great predictor of future success.249 carries isn't too many, yet only 13 guys managed to do that in the NFL this past season. You also projected Ingram for an additional 49 receptions though. To me, yeah, that's wearing him out. 298 total touches with Thomas, Sproles, and Ivory on the roster? It just doesn't make much sense to me.I'm always willing to buy low. What's the going rate for Ingram in a dynasty league? I doubt the guy who spent the 1.1 on him is really giving him away for peanuts right now.

Of course all leagues are different and owners have different pov's, but many rankings have Ingram as a very low dynasty rb2/rb3. I would saying the going rate for an rb3 is around 1.06-1.08. If I could get him there it would be an easy choice. In this draft I would take him over any rb outside of TRich (so 1.04 to 1.06 depending on scoring) Depending on need rb vs qb vs wr of your team and scoring rules, I think he is at the level of Blackmon/Luck, so 1.02/1.03.

 

[Grahamburn]

He might be "ranked" there after this season, but what dynasty owner is dumping their 1.1 from 2011 for the 1.8 after one sub par rookie season? If you're willing to give up the 1.2 or 1.3 you'd better be extremely high on Ingram.

The 1.4 to 1.6 is probably valuing him correctly, but I still think you'd be hard pressed to pry him away from his owner for one of those picks.

 

[DansRams]

He might be "ranked" there after this season, but what dynasty owner is dumping their 1.1 from 2011 for the 1.8 after one sub par rookie season? If you're willing to give up the 1.2 or 1.3 you'd better be extremely high on Ingram. The 1.4 to 1.6 is probably valuing him correctly, but I still think you'd be hard pressed to pry him away from his owner for one of those picks.

I wasnt saying I would trade him for the 1.08. I wouldnt trade him for the 1.02. What I am saying is...If a team in your league is willing to give him up for 1.04, I would do it quick.

 

[DansRams]

I bet the sentence "They traded up to draft him!" must have been used 100 times in his 2011 player spotlight as a reason why he'd have 1,500 yards and 15 TDs.

Not sure this means anything to me as I am looking forward to this season and I am not projecting 1500/15...but it is a fact that they traded up to get him and Payton admitted to holding him back

So the Saints are going to simply wear Ingram out while they have two capable players holding their helmets on the sideline? This is the same mistake Ingram backers were making last year. There are only so many RB touches to go around in that offense, and even fewer for the RBs that actually run the ball. Ingram won't sniff those numbers unless Thomas/Ivory get hurt or released.

249 carries is wearing him out? We can argue if he will get this type of workload till the sun stops coming up, but it won't matter. I think he will and you don't....fair enough

There were all kinds of reports about how great Ingram looked in camp last year. I don't think the lack of a full off season halted him in any way. I don't disagree that Payton will design ways to get Ingram the ball more often in 2012, but it still won't be enough to appease fantasy owners.

...and IMO you will be one of the owners wishing you bought low.

Just pointing out that "they traded up to draft him" isn't really a great predictor of future success.249 carries isn't too many, yet only 13 guys managed to do that in the NFL this past season. You also projected Ingram for an additional 49 receptions though. To me, yeah, that's wearing him out. 298 total touches with Thomas, Sproles, and Ivory on the roster? It just doesn't make much sense to me.I'm always willing to buy low. What's the going rate for Ingram in a dynasty league? I doubt the guy who spent the 1.1 on him is really giving him away for peanuts right now.

249 and 49 is just over 15 carries and 3 catches a game. Its a full workload but certainly not a heavy/wear a guy down workload. Now 5-6 seasons of this is going to wear on a guy, but how are you going to have an rb1 without this type of workload, short of a Sproles type season. Even J Charles in his "underused" 2010 season had 230/45 (only 1.5 touches less)

 

[Grahamburn]

I bet the sentence "They traded up to draft him!" must have been used 100 times in his 2011 player spotlight as a reason why he'd have 1,500 yards and 15 TDs.

Not sure this means anything to me as I am looking forward to this season and I am not projecting 1500/15...but it is a fact that they traded up to get him and Payton admitted to holding him back

So the Saints are going to simply wear Ingram out while they have two capable players holding their helmets on the sideline? This is the same mistake Ingram backers were making last year. There are only so many RB touches to go around in that offense, and even fewer for the RBs that actually run the ball. Ingram won't sniff those numbers unless Thomas/Ivory get hurt or released.

249 carries is wearing him out? We can argue if he will get this type of workload till the sun stops coming up, but it won't matter. I think he will and you don't....fair enough

There were all kinds of reports about how great Ingram looked in camp last year. I don't think the lack of a full off season halted him in any way. I don't disagree that Payton will design ways to get Ingram the ball more often in 2012, but it still won't be enough to appease fantasy owners.

...and IMO you will be one of the owners wishing you bought low.

Just pointing out that "they traded up to draft him" isn't really a great predictor of future success.249 carries isn't too many, yet only 13 guys managed to do that in the NFL this past season. You also projected Ingram for an additional 49 receptions though. To me, yeah, that's wearing him out. 298 total touches with Thomas, Sproles, and Ivory on the roster? It just doesn't make much sense to me.

I'm always willing to buy low. What's the going rate for Ingram in a dynasty league? I doubt the guy who spent the 1.1 on him is really giving him away for peanuts right now.

249 and 49 is just over 15 carries and 3 catches a game. Its a full workload but certainly not a heavy/wear a guy down workload. Now 5-6 seasons of this is going to wear on a guy, but how are you going to have an rb1 without this type of workload, short of a Sproles type season. Even J Charles in his "underused" 2010 season had 230/45 (only 1.5 touches less)

It's a great question. You're not. 298 touches is practically a feature back workload. HTH.

 

[Tanner9919]

I was one who wrote "Curtis Martin" like so I definitely was disappointed. I also believe part of the problem is the coaching staff in New Orleans. The plays do not allow for a RB to really get much of a rhythm going. In fact every time they touch the ball they run to the sideline so the next guy can have a go at it...it sounds good in theory that you want to keep your backs healthy but the proof is in the pudding. Not many of the RBs in New Orleans have found great success. Darren Sproles was pretty good overall but he rarely touched the ball on hand offs. He was almost a WR and sometimes he disappeared from game plans. So overall I am disappointed but I also am disappointed in the coaching staff and you saw Reggie Bush have his best season ever in the NFL with a vastly inferior team around him in Miami, why couldn't that happen in New Orleans? So I blame some of this on the coaching staff as much as I would Ingram himself.

bingo! it is the coaching staff! Ingram is a tad slow as others have indicated, but he went to the wrong team..but, Bloom said it was 'bunk' to think that the coaching staff will not change from their RBBC style to one that uses his boy, Ingram, as the bell cow, and that Payton would indeeed change..

 

[Sudoku_in_the_Bathtub]

Most concerning thing is that he was greatly talked about regarding his 10 yard split.....he looked much much slower to the line that all of Thomas/Sproles/Ivory.

He'll get his time to shine, but he wasn't very impressive in comparison to a couple undrafted FA's in Year 1. And Sproles certainly isn't going away.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

I was one who wrote "Curtis Martin" like so I definitely was disappointed. I also believe part of the problem is the coaching staff in New Orleans. The plays do not allow for a RB to really get much of a rhythm going. In fact every time they touch the ball they run to the sideline so the next guy can have a go at it...it sounds good in theory that you want to keep your backs healthy but the proof is in the pudding. Not many of the RBs in New Orleans have found great success. Darren Sproles was pretty good overall but he rarely touched the ball on hand offs. He was almost a WR and sometimes he disappeared from game plans. So overall I am disappointed but I also am disappointed in the coaching staff and you saw Reggie Bush have his best season ever in the NFL with a vastly inferior team around him in Miami, why couldn't that happen in New Orleans? So I blame some of this on the coaching staff as much as I would Ingram himself.

bingo! it is the coaching staff! Ingram is a tad slow as others have indicated, but he went to the wrong team..but, Bloom said it was 'bunk' to think that the coaching staff will not change from their RBBC style to one that uses his boy, Ingram, as the bell cow, and that Payton would indeeed change..

In the same regard, Sean Payton is in the business of winning football games and doesn't care about FF or the numbers each of his players get. So if RBBC is working why change from it?

 

[DesmondBishop]

In the same regard, Sean Payton is in the business of winning football games and doesn't care about FF or the numbers each of his players get. So if RBBC is working why change from it?

Agreed with this, and I also stated in many posts Chris Ivory when healthy, was the more explosive and harder running back, which he is and proved as much on the field. I got so much flack from "experts" on this board because Ingram was a #1 draft pick and Ivory was undrafted. Once again I think it goes to show the NFL scouts aren't perfect and they definitely do not know it all. For the record I am not an Ingram basher/hater, I just don't think he is as good as everyone thought he was and was way over hyped.

 

[eaglezzz]

Until Drew Brees hits a wall I don't see Ingram being that great of a Fantasy option. Maybe if he could stay healthy he may earn 50% of the snaps and be the Primary GL back - but that is his ceiling. The Saints spread the ball out to everyone and with the emergence of Graham and Sproles I find it hard to think Ingram ever becomes more then a RB3/Flex play at best

 

[matttyl]

Until Drew Brees hits a wall I don't see Ingram being that great of a Fantasy option. Maybe if he could stay healthy he may earn 50% of the snaps and be the Primary GL back - but that is his ceiling. The Saints spread the ball out to everyone and with the emergence of Graham and Sproles I find it hard to think Ingram ever becomes more then a RB3/Flex play at best

Last year the Saints had 431 rushing attempts, and had 16 rushing TDs. Take out Ingram's 5 TDs, and 7 of the other 11 TDs were inside of 10 yards (typically goal line back duties). In today's NFL with all the RBBC going on, a RB with 216 rushing attempts (50% of the "snaps", I simply used 50% of the rushing attempts) and ~10 TDs is a solid #2 fantasy RB.

Also keep in mind that the Saints ran the ball LESS than 40% of the time last year (431 rushing attempts to 1117 offensive plays). If that gets a bit closer to 45%....Ingram could be looking at ~225 carries/1,000+ rushing yards (4.5 YPC, which is still less than the 4.9 the team averaged)/~10 rushing TDs - and ANY RB in that offense who's on the field for "50% of the snaps" will get 2 catches a game...so 32/200/1 receiving. That's Shonn Green last year with twice the TDs.

 

[eaglezzz]

Until Drew Brees hits a wall I don't see Ingram being that great of a Fantasy option. Maybe if he could stay healthy he may earn 50% of the snaps and be the Primary GL back - but that is his ceiling. The Saints spread the ball out to everyone and with the emergence of Graham and Sproles I find it hard to think Ingram ever becomes more then a RB3/Flex play at best

Last year the Saints had 431 rushing attempts, and had 16 rushing TDs. Take out Ingram's 5 TDs, and 7 of the other 11 TDs were inside of 10 yards (typically goal line back duties). In today's NFL with all the RBBC going on, a RB with 216 rushing attempts (50% of the "snaps", I simply used 50% of the rushing attempts) and ~10 TDs is a solid #2 fantasy RB.

Also keep in mind that the Saints ran the ball LESS than 40% of the time last year (431 rushing attempts to 1117 offensive plays). If that gets a bit closer to 45%....Ingram could be looking at ~225 carries/1,000+ rushing yards (4.5 YPC, which is still less than the 4.9 the team averaged)/~10 rushing TDs - and ANY RB in that offense who's on the field for "50% of the snaps" will get 2 catches a game...so 32/200/1 receiving. That's Shonn Green last year with twice the TDs.

Just a lot of mouths to feed with Sproles/Thomas/Ivory/Ingram and then when you get close to the goal line you have Graham and Moore who Brees even likes to target. Heck Jed Collins is a TD threat as well. I like Ingram's talent but I think he is one more year away from really breaking out and having that FF RB1/RB2 title

 

[Zimm]

I still have faith in Ingram....It doesn't make sense to give up on a RB year one, and when he played he actually looked good. PT can't stay healthy and Sproles can only take so much of a pounding.

 

[matttyl]

Until Drew Brees hits a wall I don't see Ingram being that great of a Fantasy option. Maybe if he could stay healthy he may earn 50% of the snaps and be the Primary GL back - but that is his ceiling. The Saints spread the ball out to everyone and with the emergence of Graham and Sproles I find it hard to think Ingram ever becomes more then a RB3/Flex play at best

Last year the Saints had 431 rushing attempts, and had 16 rushing TDs. Take out Ingram's 5 TDs, and 7 of the other 11 TDs were inside of 10 yards (typically goal line back duties). In today's NFL with all the RBBC going on, a RB with 216 rushing attempts (50% of the "snaps", I simply used 50% of the rushing attempts) and ~10 TDs is a solid #2 fantasy RB.

Also keep in mind that the Saints ran the ball LESS than 40% of the time last year (431 rushing attempts to 1117 offensive plays). If that gets a bit closer to 45%....Ingram could be looking at ~225 carries/1,000+ rushing yards (4.5 YPC, which is still less than the 4.9 the team averaged)/~10 rushing TDs - and ANY RB in that offense who's on the field for "50% of the snaps" will get 2 catches a game...so 32/200/1 receiving. That's Shonn Green last year with twice the TDs.

Just a lot of mouths to feed with Sproles/Thomas/Ivory/Ingram and then when you get close to the goal line you have Graham and Moore who Brees even likes to target. Heck Jed Collins is a TD threat as well. I like Ingram's talent but I think he is one more year away from really breaking out and having that FF RB1/RB2 title

I'm not looking for him to become a RB1, and anyone who is is kidding themselves at this point. I'm just looking for him to be a solid #2, and I think he's got that chance this year and definitely next.

 

[jmo87usc]

I still have faith in Ingram....It doesn't make sense to give up on a RB year one, and when he played he actually looked good. PT can't stay healthy and Sproles can only take so much of a pounding.

I agree with this. To take a former Heisman winning RB and write him off after a poor rookie season for the rest of his career is absurd. Especially when there is so much more to it than just how he plays as an individual. I'm not saying all the doubters are doing this, but some people are acting like he is bound for mediocrity for life. Between the shortened preseason, pass first offense, sproles emergence, coaches RB ADD, injury, and being a rookie, I can understand how he could have a disappointing season. But I don't think he suddenly became untalented.Maybe he'll never be a top 5 RB, but I can see him being a RB1 for a long time once he gets going. If people are willing to give Jacquizz Rodgers, Kendall Hunter, Mikael Leshore, and Ryan Williams a second season to show what they've got, then by all means Ingram should get one.