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McCarthy and McConnell Wanted ‘Son of a B*tch’ Trump Out of Politics After Jan. 6 Riot, (1 Viewer)

lazyike

Footballguy
“Legend has it a woman asked Benjamin Franklin a question as he exited Independence Hall after the Constitutional Convention in 1787. “Doctor, what have we got? A republic or a monarchy?” Franklin supposedly replied, “A republic, if you can keep it.”

( Elizabeth Willing Powell is also credited with this phrase ) 

I am not nearly as articulate as many of you  but I recently watched a portion of the Ben Franklin documentary on PBS. Quite an amazing man no doubt. Events over a year ago on January 6 have many wondering if we are at a crossroads'o in regards to this. Gerrymandering and strong partisan politics by both parties are a major concern for me but feel like many do on both sides of the aisle that the most significant threat was posed when a peaceful transfer of power did not occur on January 6. The unwillingness to accept the results of the 2020 election without evidence (that could be proven in court) by one man and the majority of the Republican Party are the source of the threat IMO to our Republic

Gov Christie is as guilty as any of partisan politics  and no hero to me but he said over a year ago said that “Trump's legal efforts are a national embarrassment. “ They often discuss election fraud "outside the courtroom, but when they go inside the courtroom they don't plead fraud and they don't argue fraud."

Noting that he voted for Trump, Christie said: "Elections have consequences, and we cannot continue to act as if something happened here that did not happen.

"You have an obligation to present the evidence," he said. "The evidence has not been presented. And you must conclude — as [Fox News host] Tucker Carlson even concluded the other night — that if you're unwilling to come forward and present the evidence, it must mean the evidence doesn't exist." ( Yes I have posted his quotes here before but think they hit the nail on the head)

I have seen some polls ( I know many of you here despise polls) suggest nearly 70% of Republicans believe Biden’s election is not legitimate. I strongly believe that if these anti patriotic feelings don’t change by one this country’s major political parties soon, we are in serious trouble. I think the investigation by the 1/6 committee and the DOJ’s investigation are very important and somebody high up on the political spectrum has to be charged with some type of treasonous crimes against our nation. 
 

I write this with the expectations of hearing complaints about another thread bashing Trump, that this post could of been added in another thread. My topics generally peter  out and I have no doubt this one will too but I just had to get this off my chest.

 
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timschochet

Footballguy
Love the quote but I think that it’s overused in today’s political climate to imply that catastrophe is quickly approaching, from either the extreme left or extreme right. We need to be on the lookout for both, but I don’t believe we’re in real threat of losing our republic. 

You’re right to be concerned about that 70% of Republicans number. But to put it in a little perspective, consider that, about 15 years ago, more than half of all Democrats believed that Bush knew 9/11 would happen before it did and may have helped planned it: 

https://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-smith/2011/04/more-than-half-of-democrats-believed-bush-knew-035224

Unfortunately all too many people believe the worst about the other side. This has been going on for a long time and it certainly isn’t healthy for our political system, But I don’t think it will destroy us either. 

 

lazyike

Footballguy
Love the quote but I think that it’s overused in today’s political climate to imply that catastrophe is quickly approaching, from either the extreme left or extreme right. We need to be on the lookout for both, but I don’t believe we’re in real threat of losing our republic. 

You’re right to be concerned about that 70% of Republicans number. But to put it in a little perspective, consider that, about 15 years ago, more than half of all Democrats believed that Bush knew 9/11 would happen before it did and may have helped planned it: 

https://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-smith/2011/04/more-than-half-of-democrats-believed-bush-knew-035224

Unfortunately all too many people believe the worst about the other side. This has been going on for a long time and it certainly isn’t healthy for our political system, But I don’t think it will destroy us either. 
I don’t think believing Bush knew was on the same level as not accepting the necessary peaceful transfer of power. I voted for Bush and never believed such nonsense but neither did I feel threatened by Democrats believing it. For some to believe one man is corrupt really doesn’t pose a threat to our Republic and one could make the case just the opposite is true. Perhaps putting to much trust in a leader without giving the authority of congressional oversight could threaten our Republic.

 
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timschochet

Footballguy
I don’t think believing Bush knew was on the same level as not accepting the necessary peaceful transfer of power. I voted for Bush and never believed such nonsense but neither did I feel threatened by Democrats believing it. For some to believe one man is corrupt really doesn’t pose a threat to our Republic and one could make the case just the opposite is true.
Except that if you believe that Bush knew then it becomes, by necessity, far more than one corrupt man- you have to believe that the entire government at the time was corrupt. Bush can’t know by himself. So I would argue that it is at the same or similar level of conspiracy thinking. 

 

lazyike

Footballguy
Except that if you believe that Bush knew then it becomes, by necessity, far more than one corrupt man- you have to believe that the entire government at the time was corrupt. Bush can’t know by himself. So I would argue that it is at the same or similar level of conspiracy thinking. 
I don’t disagree that it was conspiracy thinking but belief in a conspiracy of corruption of an administration is not an issue for me compared to refusing to concede an election without evidence. It’s not like we had investigations by Congress going on for several years making false claims.

 

Dinsy Ejotuz

Footballguy
“They often discuss election fraud "outside the courtroom, but when they go inside the courtroom they don't plead fraud and they don't argue fraud."
For any honest person this fact alone should prove the fraud allegations are a lie.

In fact, it goes further than the quote above -- when specifically asked by judges if they are alleging fraud the lawyers repeatedly answered that they are not.

 

lazyike

Footballguy
For any honest person this fact alone should prove the fraud allegations are a lie.

In fact, it goes further than the quote above -- when specifically asked by judges if they are alleging fraud the lawyers repeatedly answered that they are not.
When Republicans are pressed today on this issue as to whether they believe Biden is our legitimate President they often say that there were irregularities and express the need for forensic audits. The leading GOP candidate for governor in Minnesota recently said as much. That’s just not good enough to refuse to accept the election results. 

 

IvanKaramazov

Footballguy
Love the quote but I think that it’s overused in today’s political climate to imply that catastrophe is quickly approaching, from either the extreme left or extreme right. We need to be on the lookout for both, but I don’t believe we’re in real threat of losing our republic. 

You’re right to be concerned about that 70% of Republicans number. But to put it in a little perspective, consider that, about 15 years ago, more than half of all Democrats believed that Bush knew 9/11 would happen before it did and may have helped planned it: 

https://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-smith/2011/04/more-than-half-of-democrats-believed-bush-knew-035224

Unfortunately all too many people believe the worst about the other side. This has been going on for a long time and it certainly isn’t healthy for our political system, But I don’t think it will destroy us either. 
Another way to look at it is that some of us were warning at the time that the whole 9/11-truther thing was an early symptom of our national cognitive decline.  I think it's pretty obvious now, with the benefit of hindsight, that we were right and people who handwaved this away were wrong.

 

IvanKaramazov

Footballguy
Anyway, I know this makes me a pessimist, but I think we already lost it.  At best, the US has already crossed over into the world of illiberal democracy.  We still have elections that the losers may or may not concede, but we don't have many democratic norms that go beyond that.  Both parties seem willing to follow the letter of the law, but they're not going to let stupid traditions like "We should probably give the president's nominee an up or down vote" get in the way of using every legal tool at their disposal to score short-term wins.  That's not the kind of government Franklin had in mind, and I think he'd probably view us as having gone over the cliff.

 

timschochet

Footballguy
Anyway, I know this makes me a pessimist, but I think we already lost it.  At best, the US has already crossed over into the world of illiberal democracy.  We still have elections that the losers may or may not concede, but we don't have many democratic norms that go beyond that.  Both parties seem willing to follow the letter of the law, but they're not going to let stupid traditions like "We should probably give the president's nominee an up or down vote" get in the way of using every legal tool at their disposal to score short-term wins.  That's not the kind of government Franklin had in mind, and I think he'd probably view us as having gone over the cliff.
This is certainly a pessimistic point of view. I take the opposite side- partisanship is pretty bad currently but not quite as bad as it was in the 1850s, or 1950s, or 1960s. All relative. If we’ve gone over the cliff, well, we have before. We always seem to climb back to the other side and I suspect we will this time too: 

 

lazyike

Footballguy
Except that if you believe that Bush knew then it becomes, by necessity, far more than one corrupt man- you have to believe that the entire government at the time was corrupt. Bush can’t know by himself. So I would argue that it is at the same or similar level of conspiracy thinking. 
Interest in to note that Bush’s approval rating has improved significantly since his Presidency and I believe that those who once believed in that conspiracy are waning. I hope and think as time goes by Trump’s approval will drop rather than increase.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/22/politics/george-w-bush-favorable-poll/index.html

 
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lazyike

Footballguy
Doesn’t that prove my point? These sort of things don’t last. 
Sorry I edited but I think the number who believe Biden’s election isn’t legitimate will decrease and if it doesn’t then we are in trouble. Traveling today so rushed into responding but I do fear Trump will remain too popular with Republicans for too long to keep him from being the 2024 candidate unfortunately. 

 
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roadkill1292

Footballguy
Improving representation and our election structures would be extremely helpful with our current dysfunctional government but they won't solve the problem of a dysfunctional electorate.

But by the same token, we shouldn't let a dysfunctional electorate deter us from improving elections and representation, either.

 

Captain Cranks

Footballguy
Anyway, I know this makes me a pessimist, but I think we already lost it.  At best, the US has already crossed over into the world of illiberal democracy.  We still have elections that the losers may or may not concede, but we don't have many democratic norms that go beyond that.  Both parties seem willing to follow the letter of the law, but they're not going to let stupid traditions like "We should probably give the president's nominee an up or down vote" get in the way of using every legal tool at their disposal to score short-term wins.  That's not the kind of government Franklin had in mind, and I think he'd probably view us as having gone over the cliff.
This is realism in my eyes.

 

rockaction

Footballguy
Anyway, I know this makes me a pessimist, but I think we already lost it.  At best, the US has already crossed over into the world of illiberal democracy.  We still have elections that the losers may or may not concede, but we don't have many democratic norms that go beyond that.  Both parties seem willing to follow the letter of the law, but they're not going to let stupid traditions like "We should probably give the president's nominee an up or down vote" get in the way of using every legal tool at their disposal to score short-term wins.  That's not the kind of government Franklin had in mind, and I think he'd probably view us as having gone over the cliff.
Illiberal already?  

 

Dinsy Ejotuz

Footballguy
Another way to look at it is that some of us were warning at the time that the whole 9/11-truther thing was an early symptom of our national cognitive decline.  I think it's pretty obvious now, with the benefit of hindsight, that we were right and people who handwaved this away were wrong.
I blame the Internet.

People like the 9/11 Truthers, QAnons and etc used to be isolated.  The apocryphal Village Idiots.  But now they find each other and convince each other that so many people can't be wrong, and resist every counterfactual argument because it comes from them.

Them is a whole other part of it, but discussing that is 100% impossible and not worth the effort.

So agreed that we're pretty much over the waterfall at this point. And once you get here all the roads out are dark and full of terrors.

 
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ekbeats

Footballguy
I'm in the camp that firmly believes our Union is already dead, and that it's only a matter of time before it becomes official and the country is broken up.  It was a nice run, aided in large part by the opportunities and riches of the New World, and glued together by a relatively homogenous citizenry and culture.  But none of that exists anymore, and things are only going to get worse.  We have one party that has basically opened the borders and is allowing anyone into the country, while also guaranteeing them world class benefits in return for the economic lift gained from valuable contributions like picking apples, washing dishes and cutting grass.  Biden has been in office 15 months and the number of illegal immigrants in the country has grown by 1.2 million with no end in sight.  Just think about that number for a minute.  On top of that, we have racial animus that runs so deep that even after the last 50 years of of achievement - including equal rights under law, opportunities greater than anywhere else in the world, and the election of a black President twice - somehow racial relations still managed to get worse  That situation isn't getting better anytime soon, especially when one party is thoroughly invested in having that racial animus continue.  There is a huge divide between urban and rural America.  They both see and experience the world in a fundamentally differently manner, so much so that there doesn't appear to be any possibility of living under the same laws.  And the most telling sign is that partisanship runs so deep that virtually everything in our country is now political - entertainment, comedy, sports, late night television, PTA meetings, work, science...  And if that isn't enough to convince you of how bad things have gotten, consider the fact that 80 million people voted for Donald Trump, even after seeing what a disaster he was in his first term.  

The signs pointing towards divorce are as clear as a bell, to the point where after it happens people will look back and say, "It was so obvious, how did I not see it coming?"  If it's one thing I learned in college, it's that political outcomes are entirely predictable.  I studied International Relations at the London School of Economics in the Fall of 1988, and one of the courses I took was on Eastern Europe.  One day 1 this crusty old Professor came into the room, poured himself a tumbler of Whiskey, then said, "What would you think if I told you that within 2 years the Berlin Wall will fall, Germany will reunite, the Iron Curtain will fall, Eastern Europe will break away from Soviet control - AND the USSR will cease to be 100% Communist?"  The entire class literally laughed at him.  We smart American kids knew better.  We watched Dan Rather every night at 6:30 and none of this was being talked about.  Over the next three months that Professor showed us all the signs that these events were about to happen.  I found it all interesting but still thought he was a drunken mess.  You should have seen the look on my face the night of November 9, 1989.

Franklin and the other Founders were also great students of politics and history.  They knew what they were creating was tenuous, and it was only overcome by the sheer brilliance they displayed in designing a Constitution that guaranteed rights and balanced power.  Yet today a large swath of Americans scoff at the 1st and 2nd Amendments.  Truth is - large, democratic Republics rarely last more than a couple hundred years, and history is replete with examples.  It's pure hubris to think that we are any different.  We have knowingly created, and are even doubling down on, a balkanized society with identity politics hammered into the American psyche.  We do this by flatly accepting the bumper sticker platitude that "Diversity is our strength," all the while ignoring basic human nature and the lessons of history.  I know this all sounds terrible and I'm pretty sure I'll get skewered for it.  I hope to God I am wrong, I really do.

 
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FairWarning

Footballguy
Anyway, I know this makes me a pessimist, but I think we already lost it.  At best, the US has already crossed over into the world of illiberal democracy.  We still have elections that the losers may or may not concede, but we don't have many democratic norms that go beyond that.  Both parties seem willing to follow the letter of the law, but they're not going to let stupid traditions like "We should probably give the president's nominee an up or down vote" get in the way of using every legal tool at their disposal to score short-term wins.  That's not the kind of government Franklin had in mind, and I think he'd probably view us as having gone over the cliff.
We are a nation of legal gotcha-moments now, sad to see.

 

lazyike

Footballguy
I'm in the camp that firmly believes our Union is already dead, and that it's only a matter of time before it becomes official and the country is broken up.  It was a nice run, aided in large part by the opportunities and riches of the New World, and glued together by a relatively homogenous citizenry and culture.  But none of that exists anymore, and things are only going to get worse.  We have one party that has basically opened the borders and is allowing anyone into the country, while also guaranteeing them world class benefits in return for the economic lift gained from valuable contributions like picking apples, washing dishes and cutting grass.  Biden has been in office 15 months and the number of illegal immigrants in the country has grown by 1.2 million with no end in sight.  Just think about that number for a minute.  On top of that, we have racial animus that runs so deep that even after the last 50 years of of achievement - including equal rights under law, opportunities greater than anywhere else in the world, and the election of a black President twice - somehow racial relations still managed to get worse  That situation isn't getting better anytime soon, especially when one party is thoroughly invested in having that racial animus continue.  There is a huge divide between urban and rural America.  They both see and experience the world in a fundamentally differently manner, so much so that there doesn't appear to be any possibility of living under the same laws.  And the most telling sign is that partisanship runs so deep that virtually everything in our country is now political - entertainment, comedy, sports, late night television, PTA meetings, work, science...  And if that isn't enough to convince you of how bad things have gotten, consider the fact that 80 million people voted for Donald Trump, even after seeing what a disaster he was in his first term.  

The signs pointing towards divorce are as clear as a bell, to the point where after it happens people will look back and say, "It was so obvious, how did I not see it coming?"  If it's one thing I learned in college, it's that political outcomes are entirely predictable.  I studied International Relations at the London School of Economics in the Fall of 1988, and one of the courses I took was on Eastern Europe.  One day 1 this crusty old Professor came into the room, poured himself a tumbler of Whiskey, then said, "What would you think if I told you that within 2 years the Berlin Wall will fall, Germany will reunite, the Iron Curtain will fall, Eastern Europe will break away from Soviet control - AND the USSR will cease to be 100% Communist?"  The entire class literally laughed at him.  We smart American kids knew better.  We watched Dan Rather every night at 6:30 and none of this was being talked about.  Over the next three months that Professor showed us all the signs that these events were about to happen.  I found it all interesting but still thought he was a drunken mess.  You should have seen the look on my face the night of November 9, 1989.

Franklin and the other Founders were also great students of politics and history.  They knew what they were creating was tenuous, and it was only overcome by the sheer brilliance they displayed in designing a Constitution that guaranteed rights and balanced power.  Yet today a large swath of Americans scoff at the 1st and 2nd Amendments.  Truth is - large, democratic Republics rarely last more than a couple hundred years, and history is replete with examples.  It's pure hubris to think that we are any different.  We have knowingly created, and are even doubling down on, a balkanized society with identity politics hammered into the American psyche.  We do this by flatly accepting the bumper sticker platitude that "Diversity is our strength," all the while ignoring basic human nature and the lessons of history.  I know this all sounds terrible and I'm pretty sure I'll get skewered for it.  I hope to God I am wrong, I really do.
I appreciate your response but I am a little less pessimistic than you are. Not only do I have different issues of concern I have hope some can be resolved. Notably the investigation  followed by charges of sedition of some of those with political power. Immigration is something that many on the right have at the top of the list of issues and while I agree it is a major issue many western democracies are dealing with it. I don’t have the answer but don’t feel any administration has properly come up with a solution that has effectively dealt with it including the last administration which IMO not only was too cruel and it showed a tint of racism. At the same time I definitely am against open borders.

 
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KarmaPolice

Footballguy
ekbeats said:
I'm in the camp that firmly believes our Union is already dead, and that it's only a matter of time before it becomes official and the country is broken up.  It was a nice run, aided in large part by the opportunities and riches of the New World, and glued together by a relatively homogenous citizenry and culture.  But none of that exists anymore, and things are only going to get worse.  We have one party that has basically opened the borders and is allowing anyone into the country, while also guaranteeing them world class benefits in return for the economic lift gained from valuable contributions like picking apples, washing dishes and cutting grass.  Biden has been in office 15 months and the number of illegal immigrants in the country has grown by 1.2 million with no end in sight.  Just think about that number for a minute.  On top of that, we have racial animus that runs so deep that even after the last 50 years of of achievement - including equal rights under law, opportunities greater than anywhere else in the world, and the election of a black President twice - somehow racial relations still managed to get worse  That situation isn't getting better anytime soon, especially when one party is thoroughly invested in having that racial animus continue.  There is a huge divide between urban and rural America.  They both see and experience the world in a fundamentally differently manner, so much so that there doesn't appear to be any possibility of living under the same laws.  And the most telling sign is that partisanship runs so deep that virtually everything in our country is now political - entertainment, comedy, sports, late night television, PTA meetings, work, science...  And if that isn't enough to convince you of how bad things have gotten, consider the fact that 80 million people voted for Donald Trump, even after seeing what a disaster he was in his first term.  

The signs pointing towards divorce are as clear as a bell, to the point where after it happens people will look back and say, "It was so obvious, how did I not see it coming?"  If it's one thing I learned in college, it's that political outcomes are entirely predictable.  I studied International Relations at the London School of Economics in the Fall of 1988, and one of the courses I took was on Eastern Europe.  One day 1 this crusty old Professor came into the room, poured himself a tumbler of Whiskey, then said, "What would you think if I told you that within 2 years the Berlin Wall will fall, Germany will reunite, the Iron Curtain will fall, Eastern Europe will break away from Soviet control - AND the USSR will cease to be 100% Communist?"  The entire class literally laughed at him.  We smart American kids knew better.  We watched Dan Rather every night at 6:30 and none of this was being talked about.  Over the next three months that Professor showed us all the signs that these events were about to happen.  I found it all interesting but still thought he was a drunken mess.  You should have seen the look on my face the night of November 9, 1989.

Franklin and the other Founders were also great students of politics and history.  They knew what they were creating was tenuous, and it was only overcome by the sheer brilliance they displayed in designing a Constitution that guaranteed rights and balanced power.  Yet today a large swath of Americans scoff at the 1st and 2nd Amendments.  Truth is - large, democratic Republics rarely last more than a couple hundred years, and history is replete with examples.  It's pure hubris to think that we are any different.  We have knowingly created, and are even doubling down on, a balkanized society with identity politics hammered into the American psyche.  We do this by flatly accepting the bumper sticker platitude that "Diversity is our strength," all the while ignoring basic human nature and the lessons of history.  I know this all sounds terrible and I'm pretty sure I'll get skewered for it.  I hope to God I am wrong, I really do.
Good read - thanks.   

My follow up questions for you would be do you think this divorce will be peaceful or not?  We doing North/South, East/West?   

I'm not disagreeing as I've wondered to myself a lot over the last couple years if the divide is reconcilable and if not what does that future look like.  

 

lazyike

Footballguy
Good read - thanks.   

My follow up questions for you would be do you think this divorce will be peaceful or not?  We doing North/South, East/West?   

I'm not disagreeing as I've wondered to myself a lot over the last couple years if the divide is reconcilable and if not what does that future look like.  
Going to be tough dividing. In Minnesota the metro area is liberal left and the rural area is like South Dakota. I suspect many other states are very similar. No matter how one would attempt to divide you would have millions of unhappy people. 

 

KarmaPolice

Footballguy
Going to be tough dividing. In Minnesota the metro area is liberal left and the rural area is like South Dakota. I suspect many other states are very similar. No matter how one would attempt to divide you would have millions of unhappy people. 
I think that is what some of the hardest things to decide if it was the peaceful routes since the majority of metro areas run blue.  One side gets to keep the majority of cities?   No way.       Would team red want the southern border or just let the other side deall with that? 

 
Would be nice to agree on what we can agree on and go from there.

Maybe start with: accepting the results of elections is the foundation of democracy. Is that really a bridge too far? If it is, then we've probably already lost it. 

I'll continue to vote for "small d" democracy over authoritarianism every time. YMMV.

 
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ekbeats

Footballguy
Would be nice to agree on what we can agree on and go from there.

Maybe start with: accepting the results of elections is the foundation of democracy. Is that really a bridge too far? If it is, then we've probably already lost it. 

I'll continue to vote for "small d" democracy over authoritarianism every time. YMMV.
Trump is the ridiculous outlier here, but let’s not pretend that Dems don’t call election results illegitimate.  Hillary, Abrahms, Gore…

 

ekbeats

Footballguy
Good read - thanks.   

My follow up questions for you would be do you think this divorce will be peaceful or not?  We doing North/South, East/West?   

I'm not disagreeing as I've wondered to myself a lot over the last couple years if the divide is reconcilable and if not what does that future look like.  
I think it will start with a North / South, and then perhaps California and Texas breaking away on their own.  Peaceful?  These things usually aren’t.  It’s like what they say about marriages, “If things didn’t end badly, they wouldn’t end at all”

 

lazyike

Footballguy
Trump is the ridiculous outlier here, but let’s not pretend that Dems don’t call election results illegitimate.  Hillary, Abrahms, Gore…
Let’s not rewrite history here. Clinton conceded Nov 9th, 2016 and said Donald Trump is our President. The day after the SC ruled in December on the Florida ballots  Gore conceded. All we needed from Trump was for him to concede and say Biden is our President and Jan 6, 2021 doesn’t happen.
 

But shame on Abrahms for not conceding and even though it wasn’t a national election, shame on her. 

 
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BladeRunner

Footballguy
 Whataboutism is an unserious response to the reality of the situation in this country.


Whataboutism is a perfect answer to one side that's telling you to behave better whose own history shows that they haven't themselves. 

In order to gain the trust or confidence of the very same people whom you expect to act better, don't you think your side should take the first step and show them how it's done?  Neither side trusts each other.  Making that first step is the hardest.  And that doesn't mean conceding days later when you should have done it the same day and then spend the next 4 years complaining about it AND other members of your party (i.e. Abrams) continuing to push the very same thing you expect the other guy to not do.

 

lazyike

Footballguy
Whataboutism is a perfect answer to one side that's telling you to behave better whose own history shows that they haven't themselves. 

In order to gain the trust or confidence of the very same people whom you expect to act better, don't you think your side should take the first step and show them how it's done?  Neither side trusts each other.  Making that first step is the hardest.  And that doesn't mean conceding days later when you should have done it the same day and then spend the next 4 years complaining about it AND other members of your party (i.e. Abrams) continuing to push the very same thing you expect the other guy to not do.
Fortunately Abrahms state race doesn’t carry the significance that a national Presidential election does. No way was her not conceding going to have anything to do with our Constitution or our Republic. Yes I condemn her and I suppose it could have become an issue if she was able to convince enough people in the state of Georgia of her lie but it didn’t. This just doesn’t clear the bar of whataboutism here. We are talking about our “Republic” here, not one of our 50 states. 

 
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BladeRunner

Footballguy
Fortunately Abrahms state race doesn’t carry the significance that a national Presidential election does. No way was her not conceding going to have anything to do with our Constitution or our Republic. Yes I condemn her and I suppose it could have become an issue if she was able to convince enough people in the state of Georgia of her lie but it didn’t. This just doesn’t clear the bar of whataboutism here. We are talking about our “Republic” here, not one of our 50 states. 


Do I need to mention Abrams is a rising star in the Democrat Party?  Don't tell me her race was so insignificant because it wasn't - she was front and center during her election from everyone on the left and in the MSM AND she's running again. I don't need to remind you that governor's become Presidents.

If you don't want people acting badly, then set the bar and don't do it yourself.  I mean, it is the simplest concept to grasp.

 
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dkp993

Footballguy
Do I need to mention Abrams is a rising star in the Democrat Party?  Don't tell me her race was so insignificant because it wasn't - she was front and center during her election from everyone on the left and in the MSM AND she's running again. I don't need to remind you that governor's become Presidents.

If you don't want people acting badly, then set the bar and don't do it yourself.  I mean, it is the simplest concept to grasp.
She’d be just another average nobody Governor if not for Trump’s election BS.  There’s a very strong argument to make that the Right is making her the rising star.  

 
Whataboutism is a perfect answer to one side that's telling you to behave better whose own history shows that they haven't themselves. 

In order to gain the trust or confidence of the very same people whom you expect to act better, don't you think your side should take the first step and show them how it's done?  Neither side trusts each other.  Making that first step is the hardest.  And that doesn't mean conceding days later when you should have done it the same day and then spend the next 4 years complaining about it AND other members of your party (i.e. Abrams) continuing to push the very same thing you expect the other guy to not do.
This mindset that everyone is necessarily with a "side" is also a huge problem. I won't do it and I won't allow you to do it to me. I'm an American, I'll decide to vote for whoever I want, regardless of party. You don't know what party I affiliate with (hint: I don't affiliate) and I'm not on a "side". It's such a limiting way to frame the discussion and probably not a coincidence that this is exactly how certain entities want you to think.

 

BladeRunner

Footballguy
This mindset that everyone is necessarily with a "side" is also a huge problem. I won't do it and I won't allow you to do it to me. I'm an American, I'll decide to vote for whoever I want, regardless of party. You don't know what party I affiliate with (hint: I don't affiliate) and I'm not on a "side". It's such a limiting way to frame the discussion and probably not a coincidence that this is exactly how certain entities want you to think.


Fair enough, but in my defense most posts from you I read really are in defense of the Democrat Party and/or "the left" and railing on "the right".  Not hard to make the jump, but if you aren't affiliated, that's fine.

That kind of position is why the term "FBG Independent" was coined.

 
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lazyike

Footballguy
Do I need to mention Abrams is a rising star in the Democrat Party?  Don't tell me her race was so insignificant because it wasn't - she was front and center during her election from everyone on the left and in the MSM AND she's running again. I don't need to remind you that governor's become Presidents.

If you don't want people acting badly, then set the bar and don't do it yourself.  I mean, it is the simplest concept to grasp.
You are trying to make this a partisan thing between Democrats and Republicans and that isn’t where I am coming from. If Bernie Sanders had done what DJT did I would be just as angry. As an Independent I am fully prepared to vote for a Republican as long as he wasn’t a Trump supporter or enabler.

 

BladeRunner

Footballguy
You are trying to make this a partisan thing between Democrats and Republicans and that isn’t where I am coming from. If Bernie Sanders had done what DJT did I would be just as angry. As an Independent I am fully prepared to vote for a Republican as long as he wasn’t a Trump supporter or enabler.


Thanks, I appreciate that.

I think @ekbeats and myself are just pointing out that there are bad actors on both sides here that are doing a disservice to us all.  Pointing out only one of those sides seems, IMO, to be calling only that side out.  There is work to do from both sides to clean house and minimizing what "the other side" is doing doesn't help.

I know you pointed out that you were disappointed in Abrams and I think that's a good start, but that had to be brought to your attention before you did.  But any progress is good, IMO.  I'll concede that last election was certainly more high profile so takes center stage here, but the smaller profile elections still matter.  DJT should have conceded.

Howeve,r when guys like @tommyGunZ and @Sabertooth enter threads and proclaim that Democrats are as clean as the wind driven snow and, even if they did do something like "the other side" did, it just "wasn't as bad", that's a problem because refuses to acknowledge there even is a problem.

Long story short, I think I'm mostly in agreement with you.  :thumbup:

 
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lazyike

Footballguy
She’d be just another average nobody Governor if not for Trump’s election BS.  There’s a very strong argument to make that the Right is making her the rising star.  
I watch a lot of what many here would call the liberal media and can’t remember the last time she was a guest on what I view. Not what I would call a rising star.

 
Fair enough, but in my defense most posts from you I read really are in defense of the Democrat Party and/or "the left" and railing on "the right".  Not hard to make the jump, but if you aren't affiliated, that's fine.

That kind of position is why the term "FBG Independent" was coined.
Understood. I've been fairly outspoken against a certain prominent politician, so I get that. There's a lot of validity to the points you're raising, hypocrisy is a real issue as well and it's fair to call it out.

 

BladeRunner

Footballguy
Understood. I've been fairly outspoken against a certain prominent politician, so I get that. There's a lot of validity to the points you're raising, hypocrisy is a real issue as well and it's fair to call it out.


And, for the record, I include myself in a lot of this stuff too.  I can be just as much of a hypocrite as the next guy.  I need to do better.

 
Trump is the ridiculous outlier here, but let’s not pretend that Dems don’t call election results illegitimate.  Hillary, Abrahms, Gore…


There is a MASSIVE difference between calling an election result "illegitimate" as a way to draw attention to concerns you have about the process and undercut the political gravitas of an elected leader and actually trying to overturn a national election result using misinformation and threats.

The former is common political rhetoric employed on both sides of the aisle. The latter is, to my knowledge, unprecedented in American history, and should not be minimized by attempting to throw it in with the former.

 

tommyGunZ

Footballguy
Thanks, I appreciate that.

I think @ekbeats and myself are just pointing out that there are bad actors on both sides here that are doing a disservice to us all.  Pointing out only one of those sides seems, IMO, to be calling only that side out.  There is work to do from both sides to clean house and minimizing what "the other side" is doing doesn't help.

I know you pointed out that you were disappointed in Abrams and I think that's a good start, but that had to be brought to your attention before you did.  But any progress is good, IMO.  I'll concede that last election was certainly more high profile so takes center stage here, but the smaller profile elections still matter.  DJT should have conceded.

Howeve,r when guys like @tommyGunZ and @Sabertooth enter threads and proclaim that Democrats are as clean as the wind driven snow and, even if they did do something like "the other side" did, it just "wasn't as bad", that's a problem because refuses to acknowledge there even is a problem.

Long story short, I think I'm mostly in agreement with you.  :thumbup:
To clarify, I’ve never once suggested that Democrats are as clean as the wind driven snow. Plenty of corrupt bad actors in my party.  And when their corruption/abuse is revealed, I call for them to be held fully accountable.

I reject that the two parties are equally corrupt and equally operating in bad faith. Perhaps sometime in the future, conservatism will regain what they supposedly stand for and oust the grifters and bad faith actors that currently dominate their party.  I certainly hope so.  

 

BladeRunner

Footballguy
To clarify, I’ve never once suggested that Democrats are as clean as the wind driven snow. Plenty of corrupt bad actors in my party.  And when their corruption/abuse is revealed, I call for them to be held fully accountable.

I reject that the two parties are equally corrupt and equally operating in bad faith. Perhaps sometime in the future, conservatism will regain what they supposedly stand for and oust the grifters and bad faith actors that currently dominate their party.  I certainly hope so.  


Thanks for reinforcing my point.  :thumbup:

Meanwhile, as the Democrat Party moves further and further left (i.e. extreme) with every election you just focus on the Conservatives because looking inward might be too much to bear.

 

ekbeats

Footballguy
There is a MASSIVE difference between calling an election result "illegitimate" as a way to draw attention to concerns you have about the process and undercut the political gravitas of an elected leader and actually trying to overturn a national election result using misinformation and threats.

The former is common political rhetoric employed on both sides of the aisle. The latter is, to my knowledge, unprecedented in American history, and should not be minimized by attempting to throw it in with the former.
My post was in response to this:

“Maybe start with: accepting the results of elections is the foundation of democracy.”

I didn’t equivocate Trump with the Dems.  I called him a ridiculous outlier.  

 
My post was in response to this:

“Maybe start with: accepting the results of elections is the foundation of democracy.”

I didn’t equivocate Trump with the Dems.  I called him a ridiculous outlier.  


For him to be an "outlier" they would have to be doing something similar or in some common category. I don't believe they are. Calling a leader "illegitimate" because they didn't win a majority of votes, or because they worked to suppress legitimate participation in their own election, or because you want to make some larger rhetorical point, or even just because you're an ###, is a very common tactic and has basically no impact on democracy IMO.

It simply doesn't belong in the same conversation as actually undertaking fraudulent efforts to actually change an election because you don't like the results. They are two completely different things. The only reason we talk about them together is that GOP members would bring it up in a (flawed) effort to defend to some of Trump's earlier rhetoric about elections, before he went full third world dictator.

 

ekbeats

Footballguy
Let’s not rewrite history here. Clinton conceded Nov 9th, 2016 and said Donald Trump is our President.
Hillary once again, speaking on the Trevor Noah show in July 2020:

‘In this case, it’s a continuation of the cover-up,’ she said. ‘Because the one thing that Trump is fearful of, when it comes to his being president, is that finally we will see how illegitimate his victory actually was.

 
She also said on national television that Trump was “An illegitimate President” - in 2019!


So?

You were the one who decided that calling an elected official "illegitimate" was some sort of meaningful attack on democracy. It's not. You're basically boosting your own (flawed IMO) point here. The post to which you replied said a good starting point would be "accepting the results of elections." AFAIK neither Clinton nor anyone else has ever suggested that the results of an American election should be invalidated.

 

ekbeats

Footballguy
So?

You were the one who decided that calling an elected official "illegitimate" was some sort of meaningful attack on democracy. It's not. You're basically boosting your own (flawed IMO) point here. The post to which you replied said a good starting point would be "accepting the results of elections." AFAIK neither Clinton nor anyone else has ever suggested that the results of an American election should be invalidated.
She said the election was not on the level, and several times she called Trump illegitimate.  She helped justify the “Resistance”, the Russia collusion narrative, and the poisoning of Trump’s Presidency.  Not on the level of what Trump did, but I’d hardly call that “accepting the result of an election.”

 

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