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MSU in the Crosshairs - Lawsuit Alleges MSU Encouraged Woman not to Report Rape by Basketball Players; Ohio State University Doctor Abused 177 Athlete (1 Viewer)

Politician Spock said:
I'm trying to envision what this situation would look like if we did things your way. All I can see is MSU times 100. 

Yes, a small percentage of the schools fail to comply with the regulations. But a large percentage do comply, so that the world isn't as bad of a place to be like you're lack of regulation would be like. It's insane to suggest that the regulations shouldn't exist because MSU ignored them. 
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Who did that?

 
Christo said:
HFS  :lmao:
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I know that's your shtick, but you're the only one who thinks it's funny.

Schools that violate Title IX haven't committed a crime. It simply means they are at risk of losing federal funding.

If you are saying the government should stay out unless something criminal occurs, then you are saying Title IX is not a reason for the government to get involved. 

 
Actually, to append my previous post, I imagine that when one enrolls in a University there are now disclosures, disclosures that might make one an intended beneficiary of others agreements when that University is subject to Title IX.  While there is administrative process, that process is suppose to provide some assurances to others, as well as between a student and the University.  This is an interesting scenario where there are actually four processes running simultaneously.  Or so it seems to me now.

I have never read up on this area, nor previously given it any thought.  I look forward to some more debate from those who have experience in the area.  

 
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So, seems like Izzo and the University are not going to succumb to pressure. I'm sure there will be arguments about process and pressure.  Noble motives will be posited and ignoble ones as well.  In the end it is going to appear that Sparty cared more about sports than the safety of women if he stays, and if he goes there will always be some who wonder whether he was made a sacrificial lamb for the sins of others and passion run wild.  Around all of that will be what, several hundred thousand alums who wonder what it means for them, what it says about their history , their memories, and the value of their degree moving forward. 

I looked it up.  461,500 alums according to the University's site.

 
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Politician Spock said:
If they received federal funding, like those subject to Title IX, then they would be regulated by Title IX. Title IX is limited to those that received federal funding. If you are suggesting that maybe it should be extended to everyone, maybe that's a debate we should be having. 
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Sorry, I thought you were arguing for some sort of additional regulation beyond Title IX.  I read back through the thread and see that that that was a misunderstanding on my end.  

FWIW, Title IX is not exclusively or even primarily an athletic thing.  It applies to all functions of universities.  You may be aware of that already, but in my experience a lot of people aren't. 

 
Maybe this is another example of how we've completely twisted our priorities in this nation - including the fact that Institution of Higher Learning have become professional sports / entertainment companies. An industry built on the backs of mostly unpaid students (mostly because yes, scholarships), and one that has distorted the very missions of the institutions themselves. Way too much money in sports/entertainment and all that surrounds it has polluted the well from which education and other actual good for society outcomes are provided sustenance.

The money in college athletics has ruined both.

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
So, seems like Izzo and the University are not going to succumb to pressure. I'm sure there will be arguments about process and pressure.  Noble motives will be posited and ignoble ones as well.  In the end it is going to appear that Sparty cared more about sports than the safety of women if he stays, and if he goes there will always be some who wonder whether he was made a sacrificial lamb for the sins of others and passion run wild.  Around all of that will be what, several hundred thousand alums who wonder what it means for them, what it says about their history , their memories, and the value of their degree moving forward. 

I looked it up.  461,500 alums according to the University's site.
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First of all there is an interim president who probably want the job full time so he will just drive the boat in the no-wake zone for awhile.  There is no Athletic Director as of yet. So nobody will suspend Izzo or Dantone pending the results of the NCAA and the Attorney Generals office of Michigan.  Heard the Outside the Lines reporter on The Ticket today and she basically called Izzo a liar and that this is far from over as many more are being investigated. She also said that their story has been in the works for over 4 years and that MSU would never cooperate and they had to sue to get some records released. 

Watching the way Izzo is acting and talking I don`t think he survives this.

 
Da Guru said:
First of all there is an interim president who probably want the job full time so he will just drive the boat in the no-wake zone for awhile.  There is no Athletic Director as of yet. So nobody will suspend Izzo or Dantone pending the results of the NCAA and the Attorney Generals office of Michigan.  Heard the Outside the Lines reporter on The Ticket today and she basically called Izzo a liar and that this is far from over as many more are being investigated. She also said that their story has been in the works for over 4 years and that MSU would never cooperate and they had to sue to get some records released. 

Watching the way Izzo is acting and talking I don`t think he survives this.
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So, MSU is cruising to a 2 seed in the tournament.  They are going to get sent to some Region to play.  What happens when that host city starts getting protests?  What happens if they are seeded against a particularly liberal school with a very active student body who protests their 15th seed school (who is about to get drubbed anyhow) playing against MSU as that is endorsing their behavior?  Might we see a forfeiture to make a political statement?

BTW, I am not advocating any of this.  I just see new or more extreme forms of social opprobrium in this new age and marvel at what develops.  Does Izzo want to preside over a program that elicits a new form of protest, the forfeiture which potentially taints accomplishment and forever hangs then on his program?

Time to hide and watch, maybe.  Maybe not.  

 
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Ditkaless Wonders said:
So, MSU is cruising to a 2 seed in the tournament.  They are going to get sent to some Region to play.  What happens when that host city starts getting protests?  What happens if they are seeded against a particularly liberal school with a very active student body who protests their 15th seed school (who is about to get drubbed anyhow) playing against MSU as that is endorsing their behavior?  Might we see a forfeiture to make a political statement?

BTW, I am not advocating any of this.  I just see new or more extreme forms of social opprobrium in this new age and marvel at what develops.  Does Izzo want to preside over a program that elicits a new form of protest, the forfeiture which potentially taints accomplishment and forever hangs then on his program?

Time to hide and watch, maybe.  Maybe not.  
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Well..nobody seems to care about BB around here right now. Nobody talking about the team or the comeback yesterday. 

Watch this interview. Reminds me of Steve Fishers last days at Michigan.   Tom looks like a beaten man.  Plus nobody seems to be advising him very much on what to say.

 
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IvanKaramazov said:
Sorry, I thought you were arguing for some sort of additional regulation beyond Title IX.  I read back through the thread and see that that that was a misunderstanding on my end.  

FWIW, Title IX is not exclusively or even primarily an athletic thing.  It applies to all functions of universities.  You may be aware of that already, but in my experience a lot of people aren't. 
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I think that's because to a lot of people Title IX is that thing that forces colleges to offer women's sports. 

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
So, MSU is cruising to a 2 seed in the tournament.  They are going to get sent to some Region to play.  What happens when that host city starts getting protests?  What happens if they are seeded against a particularly liberal school with a very active student body who protests their 15th seed school (who is about to get drubbed anyhow) playing against MSU as that is endorsing their behavior?  Might we see a forfeiture to make a political statement?

BTW, I am not advocating any of this.  I just see new or more extreme forms of social opprobrium in this new age and marvel at what develops.  Does Izzo want to preside over a program that elicits a new form of protest, the forfeiture which potentially taints accomplishment and forever hangs then on his program?

Time to hide and watch, maybe.  Maybe not.  
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Given the state of politics and athletics in this country, I think you're much more likely to see hand-written signs calling MSU a bunch of pedophiles and perverts than a forfeit.

 
If this is going to lead to major reforms, here's my suggestion for the first reform: stop allowing "Campus Police" to investigate sexual assault claims. Campus Police are basically private security agents who are bought and paid for by the very institutions they are supposed to be investigating. It happened at Penn State, it happened at Baylor, and it happened at Michigan State. Get their paws out of the henhouse and put the cases in the custody of the state police.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Sorry, I thought you were arguing for some sort of additional regulation beyond Title IX.  I read back through the thread and see that that that was a misunderstanding on my end.  

FWIW, Title IX is not exclusively or even primarily an athletic thing.  It applies to all functions of universities.  You may be aware of that already, but in my experience a lot of people aren't. 
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Title IX is an anti-discrimination statute. That's it. Here's Title IX in it's entirety:*

No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance.
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But by regulation (mostly under Obama) it's been turned into a catch-all to address all of the world's ills on college campuses.

*Yes, I understand there are enumerated exceptions.

 
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Joe Summer said:
If this is going to lead to major reforms, here's my suggestion for the first reform: stop allowing "Campus Police" to investigate sexual assault claims. Campus Police are basically private security agents who are bought and paid for by the very institutions they are supposed to be investigating. It happened at Penn State, it happened at Baylor, and it happened at Michigan State. Get their paws out of the henhouse and put the cases in the custody of the state police.
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Oddly enough, at least at one state flagship university I know, the campus police actually are state police. They actually have higher jurisdiction than the local police.

 
Henry Ford said:
Given the state of politics and athletics in this country, I think you're much more likely to see hand-written signs calling MSU a bunch of pedophiles and perverts than a forfeit.
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Well those hand written signs have been ubiquitous for years.  I'm thinking more along the lines of what the NCAA invited when it pulled its tournament from North Carolina due to their House Bill 2. The NCAA got into the political correctness game.  They did so willingly, and perhaps they were right to do so.  That said, how can they condemn the one matter yet appear to support MSU by allowing their participation in the NCAA's Tournament?  With the finely tuned politically correct radars we have out on college campuses how can a team agree to step on the court against that program.  In a way it ratifies the behavior of MSU's program.   Now if you are say a team from the Ivy league.  You are a 15 seed facing MSU.  You know your tournament ends at the final buzzer.  You know that the only highlights for your program will be as the ones getting posterized.  You don't really need that.  Maybe you decide, instead, to make a stand, to look at the 2 seed and say you do not measure up to our standards.  Maybe you want that message to go out on Sports Center and every other news show.  Maybe that 100 million of publicity as an institution that stands for something seems like a good deal.

Who knows, before even the tournament  maybe some women's team in the Big10 decides their players are not safe on MSU's campus and therefore they cancel a game.  Maybe in solidarity the Men's team from that program agrees and also refuses. 

College kids are funny.  They can accept hypocrisy in sports programs more than just about anywhere, but traditionally colleges also like to do a bit of springtime protesting before finals.  Its a great American college campus tradition.  Maybe the fun of protesting will override the love of the tournament.  Maybe.  Maybe not.  The fact that schools are still welcoming MSU to their campuses suggests not. 

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
Well those hand written signs have been ubiquitous for years.  I'm thinking more along the lines of what the NCAA invited when it pulled its tournament from North Carolina due to their House Bill 2. The NCAA got into the political correctness game.  They did so willingly, and perhaps they were right to do so.  That said, how can they condemn the one matter yet appear to support MSU by allowing their participation in the NCAA's Tournament?  With the finely tuned politically correct radars we have out on college campuses how can a team agree to step on the court against that program.  In a way it ratifies the behavior of MSU's program.   Now if you are say a team from the Ivy league.  You are a 15 seed facing MSU.  You know your tournament ends at the final buzzer.  You know that the only highlights for your program will be as the ones getting posterized.  You don't really need that.  Maybe you decide, instead, to make a stand, to look at the 2 seed and say you do not measure up to our standards.  Maybe you want that message to go out on Sports Center and every other news show.  Maybe that 100 million of publicity as an institution that stands for something seems like a good deal.

Who knows, before even the tournament  maybe some women's team in the Big10 decides their players are not safe on MSU's campus and therefore they cancel a game.  Maybe in solidarity the Men's team from that program agrees and also refuses. 

College kids are funny.  They can accept hypocrisy in sports programs more than just about anywhere, but traditionally colleges also like to do a bit of springtime protesting before finals.  Its a great American college campus tradition.  Maybe the fun of protesting will override the love of the tournament.  Maybe.  Maybe not.  The fact that schools are still welcoming MSU to their campuses suggests not. 
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The 15 seed worked their ### off to get to the tournament and play and win.  Not make some political statement.  Oh, and there's this too.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2016/03/18/middle-tennessee-state-stunning-upset-michigan-state-ncaa-tournament/81983838/

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
The 15 seed worked their ### off to get to the tournament and play and win.  Not make some political statement.  Oh, and there's this too.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaab/2016/03/18/middle-tennessee-state-stunning-upset-michigan-state-ncaa-tournament/81983838/
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The exception that proves the rule.  I knew somebody would bring that up.  The question though is whether a sport moment should trump respect for women. Clearly the answer in America has more or less always been yes as we allow our athletes to rape their way through school making excuses for them.  I am wondering if that has changed.  There has been lip service to that effect, but no real demonstration of change.  Maybe now.  Maybe not. 

I know this.  I can't watch a minute of MSU right now and not think about the story and I find I cannot respect Izzo, not in the least.  That may not be fair, but it is how I feel.  Right now when they play, the fact of their play makes me disgusted with that University.  I think they have taken a stand that sport trumps respect for women.  I know my alma mater will play them and I will be disgusted that my alma mater would allow them on campus simply for the revenue of a game.

 
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Ditkaless Wonders said:
The exception that proves the rule.  I knew somebody would bring that up.  The question though is whether a sport moment should trump respect for women. Clearly the answer in America has more or less always been yes as we allow our athletes to rape their way through school making excuses for them.  I am wondering if that has changed.  there has been lip service to that effect, but no real demonstration of change.  maybe now.  Maybe not. 

I know this.  I can't watch a minute of MSU right now and not think about the story and I find I cannot respect Izzo, not in the least.  That may not be fair, but it is how I feel.  Right now when they play, the fact of their paly makes me disgusted with that University.  I think they have taken a stand that sport trumps respect for women.  I know my alma mater will play them and I will be disgusted that my alma mater would allow them on campus simply for the revenue of a game.
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It would be nice if a sports moment would take a back seat to respecting women.

 
Tom Servo said:
It would be nice if a sports moment would take a back seat to respecting women.
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I contrast this with the way Minnesota handled rape charges 31 years ago.  The President of the University of Minnesota forfeited a game after rape charges arose against the gophers. Jim ditcher resigned in protest.  at the time he had a pretty successful program going. That left Minnesota with Clem Haskins and the  Iron five.  Minnesota played at a disadvantage rather than condone behavior.  Now, 30 years later, in a more enlightened era, after relevatory and cosmic shifts in gender politics  MSU is doing less, much less, as they pursue basketball glory that will be tainted if achieved, more than tainted. 

As I have said, I know all of this may be unfair.  There may be a rush to judgment, a witch trial atmosphere.  I generally advocate caution in matters of process playing out.  Here though I wonder, when the benefit is allowing some games to go forward and the detriment is marginalization of women and their safety.

 
Man, Izzo looked like death warmed over the other night after the game during his presser. I know next to nothing about this story but everything about that looked bad.

 
MSU students called for President Sue to step down. Then, when a replacement is needed they protest the choice because he's a straight, white male.  Qualifications be damned, get them Wanda Sykes!

I also liked the student jumping on the table during the trustee meeting.

It's near impossible to make the trustees look good, but these students are trying their damndest.  

 
jabarony said:
MSU students called for President Sue to step down. Then, when a replacement is needed they protest the choice because he's a straight, white male.  Qualifications be damned, get them Wanda Sykes!

I also liked the student jumping on the table during the trustee meeting.

It's near impossible to make the trustees look good, but these students are trying their damndest.  
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:lmao:

What a gong show.

 
jabarony said:
MSU students called for President Sue to step down. Then, when a replacement is needed they protest the choice because he's a straight, white male.  Qualifications be damned, get them Wanda Sykes!
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Serious question, is he qualified?  From what I read, he is a career politician and lobbyist with no background working at an educational institution. The MSU faculty also denounced the selection as being about politics instead of finding a qualified candidate.

 
jabarony said:
MSU students called for President Sue to step down. Then, when a replacement is needed they protest the choice because he's a straight, white male.  Qualifications be damned, get them Wanda Sykes!

I also liked the student jumping on the table during the trustee meeting.

It's near impossible to make the trustees look good, but these students are trying their damndest.  
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Are you talking about John Engler?  I don't think many people like him so why would they want him as President.  Didn't he have something to do with ignoring sexual abuse of women in prison?

 
Hawkeye21 said:
Are you talking about John Engler?  I don't think many people like him so why would they want him as President.  Didn't he have something to do with ignoring sexual abuse of women in prison?
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Not only did he ignore complaints about sexual abuse of prisoners, he stonewalled a Justice Department investigation into the allegations.  Michigan eventually paid over $100 million to settle the claims.

http://www.bridgemi.com/public-sector/msu-interim-president-john-engler-was-dismissive-sexual-assault-claims-governor

It appears the trustees also had decided on Engler the day before an open meeting in which they promised to involve the faculty and students in the process.

 
Tom Hagen said:
Not only did he ignore complaints about sexual abuse of prisoners, he stonewalled a Justice Department investigation into the allegations.  Michigan eventually paid over $100 million to settle the claims.

http://www.bridgemi.com/public-sector/msu-interim-president-john-engler-was-dismissive-sexual-assault-claims-governor

It appears the trustees also had decided on Engler the day before an open meeting in which they promised to involve the faculty and students in the process.
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MSU can't do anything right it seems.

 
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