Chicago Hooligan
Footballguy
Signing big free agents got Pittsburgh the championship?
Were you also hoping for Jason Taylor last year?
Were you also hoping for Jason Taylor last year?
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**Not-so-offical Green Bay Packers Off-season Thread** (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Eviloutsider
- Start date
sho nuff
Footballguy
Clean his pants? Wow...whats the point of a comment like that?As to the football side of your post. What teams have gone out over the years and spent on free agency? And which of those teams is all that successful?The Pats are the only ones and they did not do it for a while.Colts? Nope.Steelers? NopeRedskins? Yup, 3 playoff appearances in the last 10 years, their only 3 winning seasons I think. 2 playoff wins in that span. Thats it.I will get ready for the draft, and hope he also signs a few guys to come in and play in this 3-4, and I believe he will.Sub .500 season, not seeing it just yet.
Mario Kart
Footballguy
So, your contention is to not spend any money in free agency? It is pretty easy to say free agents do not win a championship because after all only one team wins a championship every year while 29 others, who probably spent money in free agency, do not win. Did you not read what he replied with about crapping in pants. You should PM him to ask him to clean up his act. And, use the return key to make your posts easier to read. Really disturbing trying to read your posts. TIA
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I've been watching packer Football since the 60's. I love talking Packer Football. There are few things I would rather do. I don't participate much around here because a few make the experience not worth the effort. I hope that if other teams fans stumble in here they do not believe this thread is representative or indicative of Packer fans. You embarass me and you embarass yourselves.
Balco
Footballguy
During the salary cap era, when you look at championship caliber teams, you don't see them with a ton of outside big $$$ free agent signings. You see home grown talent, with role player FE's, with 1 or 2 big $$$ free agents, if that. Look at the Steelers this year and their impact players - Big Ben, Santonio Holmes, Willie Parker, James Harrison, Lamar Woodley, Aaron Smith, Casey Hampton, Troy Palamalu. It's usually the teams with the "minor" free agent deals that do better as well. See the Patriots during their glory years.You build your team through the draft, and sprinkle in role playing free agents to accent those players. Am I saying a couple of big $$$$ outside free agents are bad? Nope. But it is not the be all end all of having a successful franchise. You look at when the PAckers last won a championship. We had a ton of homegrown, drafted guys, and when we were on the brink, they signed Reggie White.
Balco
Footballguy
It does get extremely frustrating. It is a p***ng contest between several posters for pages on end, about nothing. For every solid post on the Packers, there are about 20 worthless ones in this thread.
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
I think Canty is a very underrated player, and he is a perfect 3-4 end. He is strong and can plug holes, and can get decent pressure on the QB. All the contracts being signed are outrageous right now, so I don't think he got "overpaid" (at least according to NFL standards). He would have been a perfect pick up for the Packers so I am happy that they didn't get him (as a Vikings fan). However, Thompson is pretty good, so he must know what he is doing, but I have a feeling they missed the boat on this one.
Chicago Hooligan
Footballguy
Oh yeah, I do realize Taylor wasn't a FA.
I also give credit to Thompson to having a trade in place for Tony Gonzalez before Carl Peterson went coo-coo ca-ca.
I also give credit to Thompson to having a trade in place for Tony Gonzalez before Carl Peterson went coo-coo ca-ca.
sho nuff
Footballguy
WHere did I say that was my contention. Such a perfect example of complete and utter spin. Its my contention that you don't offer up contracts to guys before they ever visit. Especially 40+ mil with 17 up guaranteed.You don't pay guys 30+ mil in the first 13 months of a deal either.Its my contention that you don't win a championship by just going out and spending for the sake of spending.Its pretty easy to say free agents don't just win championships because most of the more successful teams the past several years have not been big players in free agency. There is more than one way to build.I read what he said about crapping his pants...it was uncalled for then too...as was your reply.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Missed the boat though? How so? They went after him, his agent wanted an offer before they ever sat down with the guy. Im not sure even those who bash Thompson the most want him doling out offers before a guy ever even meets with the team.Im unhappy we could not get to him early and get him into town. But Im not unhappy that we did not just pony up an offer before really talking to the guy.
jurrassic
Footballguy
I have to agree with this. I don't mind people disagreeing over certain players, their value, etc. Some of the stuff in here is ridiculous. Stick to the football talk guys.
Phase of the Game
Footballguy
and what a surprise that sho nuff is in the middle of it again.
sho nuff
Footballguy
For my part, I will stick to football...right after I laugh at the last post made, way to pump up a post, by making it personal and proving you also don't want to stick to football talk).
Silverstein is hearing up next on the Packers radar is Olshansky.
There are concerns with him (something about laziness being why SD is not caring that much about letting him go).
I guess that could be better than some big time off the field issues, but is a concern. Production wise his numbers are not much different than Canty's and he will likely come at less of a price.
Silverstein is hearing up next on the Packers radar is Olshansky.
There are concerns with him (something about laziness being why SD is not caring that much about letting him go).
I guess that could be better than some big time off the field issues, but is a concern. Production wise his numbers are not much different than Canty's and he will likely come at less of a price.
griz145389
Footballguy
Who advocated spending like the Redskins?It would be nice if we were as active in free agency as Pittsburgh. That is the point. I don't want us to go gaga and sign every free agent, but the fact is, Ted signs next to nothing. For example last year Pittsburgh signed Mewelde Moore, Byron Leftwich and Justin Hartwig. One starter and two guys that significantly contributed. Meanwhile Thompson only signed one guy that made a contribution to the team, Chillar. Give me 3-5 players every year that will contribute and I will be happy.
sho nuff
Footballguy
The point is that the most active teams are those who generally have been bad.
The biggest signing out of the last 5 SB winners has been Corey Dillon...and the Pats were 14-2 and SB champs without him the year before that.
Free agency has not ended...the guys you mentioned were not big time splashes, they were role players (other than Hartwig who was a need based on letting another guy go).
Hartwig was signed after they let Faneca leave. Could you imagine the firestorm if TT let a guy like Faneca go? There was enough when he did it with Wahle and Rivera (and Faneca is better than both of them).
The biggest signing out of the last 5 SB winners has been Corey Dillon...and the Pats were 14-2 and SB champs without him the year before that.
Free agency has not ended...the guys you mentioned were not big time splashes, they were role players (other than Hartwig who was a need based on letting another guy go).
Hartwig was signed after they let Faneca leave. Could you imagine the firestorm if TT let a guy like Faneca go? There was enough when he did it with Wahle and Rivera (and Faneca is better than both of them).
sho nuff
Footballguy
I don't think its all that much.Ted allowed Ball to be the point man...seems Canty's agent really wanted to talk to Ted first and get a $$$ offer before coming in.In the end, can you really blame the guy for going to the Giants to be on that line though? For that money.On to the next guy...Im hearing they are interested in Olshansky. Some here wanted him prior to all of this starting. But then I read about the rumors about his attitude/laziness.Not sure...but at least it would be a start with someone who has experience in the 3-4.
Phurfur
Footballguy
I would never offer anyone anything without at visit. You throw someone else's money around pretty easily.
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
It doesn't say anywhere that they wanted an offer before sitting down with the guy. The agent said that he hadn't heard from Thompson which tells me they didn't really pursue him.sho nuff said:
Kleck
Footballguy
I do?
Kleck
Footballguy
Could be. From Peter King's MMQB:j. Weirdest thing I heard over the weekend: Pack gave their coaches the weekend off. They'll be in today, and this week, to work on the free agents. I'm told that has meaning -- that the Packers want to send the message that free agency spending these days is profligate, and they'll get in when the Dan Snyders get out.
Im cool with that, it's like nominating LT early during an auction draft early on so that the boneheads spend 3/4 of their salary on him.
Chicago Hooligan
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
Thompson lets Ball negotiate.His agent over and over is quoted saying he wanted an offer...wanted to know about the $$$ offer before coming in.
Not sure where you missed that.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Yet word on Jsonline was the coaches were not far and it means little since McKenzie, Ball, and thompson were still around...the guys who make the decisions. Word was, if Canty would have visisted, the coaches would have been there.
FunkyPlutos
Footballguy
My bad, I guess I couldn't find where it said that. All I found was that they told the Packers about the basic parameters of what they thought they would get and would wait to hear if the Packers wanted to set up a visit. That is all the more I read, but I must have missed something.
Milwaukees_best
Footballguy
I would just love it if GB brought back Darren Sharper. I am pretty positive that he could play next to Nick Collins and I get willies thinking of Collins, Woodson, Harris, TWilliams, and Sharper back there.
The Kerminator
Footballguy
Also now on the radar are Jason Taylor and Vonnie Holiday. Both played for Capers in Miami.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Taylor is nice and all...but what to do with Kampman? They play the same spot don't they?Id like it if Kampman could move into DE some too. Would kind of throw out the drafting of Orakpo though you would think.Does Holliday have anything left?
sho nuff
Footballguy
Oh please no.Sharper is done.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Bedard's take on free agency...how other teams skirt the rules...and Canty...
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/40573202.html
http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/40573202.html
Balco
Footballguy
I would love for Vonnie to come back to Green Bay. He is a solid 3-4 end.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Yeah...looks like he still has something left in the tank.Especially good if we draft a young DE that Vonnie can help out as well as the other guys already on the team.
griz145389
Footballguy
I would love to see Vonnie. He's not going to light the world on fire, but he is definitely good enough to start. Not a long term solution, but I would be more than happy with him until they can find someone else to step in. I wonder what it would cost the pack to get him.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Most 3-4 DEs won't light much on fire.I don't think his number in Miami was all that big...so hopefully it would not cost much.
snorlax
Zzzzzzzzzzzz.
Play them on opposite sides?
sho nuff
Footballguy
You playing Taylor at DE or OLB?Because you can't play both at OLB and expect it to work IMO.
scrumptrulescent
Footballguy
Play Taylor wherever Capers was playing him in 2006. Move Kampman to wherever but play Taylor in that same position. 13.5 sacks would be nice.
sho nuff
Footballguy
It would be...if they feel Kampman is ok at DE...
Not just because its Ted and would be cheaper...but I almost see them having more interest in Holliday to play DE leaving Kampman at OLB.
Or hell...sign Taylor, draft Orakpo...then move Kampman and have Taylor teach Orakpo the OLB spot and get a nice return for Kampman (as much as I would hate losing him, there is so much talk of uncertainty with him in the 3-4)
Not just because its Ted and would be cheaper...but I almost see them having more interest in Holliday to play DE leaving Kampman at OLB.
Or hell...sign Taylor, draft Orakpo...then move Kampman and have Taylor teach Orakpo the OLB spot and get a nice return for Kampman (as much as I would hate losing him, there is so much talk of uncertainty with him in the 3-4)
GreenNGold
Footballguy
I'm not cool with that. And a better analogy would be skipping the first hour of the auction draft because you are afraid that you might spend too much money early.I'm not saying he should overpay, but he should have at least been in contact with Canty's agent to determine if he was in our ballpark or not. It sounds like he just likes to assume that everyone is not in our ballpark than actually placing a phone call to find out.
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sho nuff
Footballguy
Ball was in contact with him...they knew the contract parameters and were still telling him to come visit. Seems pretty clear he was in the ballpark or they would not have been insistent on him coming for a visit after knowing exactly what was being offered by NY or his parameters.
uwgb96
Footballguy
Actually I think a better analogy is keeping an eye on the first hour of the auction and act accordingly if value is there, which is obviously pretty rare in this day and age.Some people just assume that the Packers simply ignore many free agents, which I think is pretty unlikely. Thompson isn't "aggressive" and isn't going to bend over backwards to please agents/players, but I trust in his ability to keep a pulse on the market and investigate any and all possibilities.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Free agent safety in for a visit now. Seen as a special teamer and a cover safety. I know nothing about him other than he played in the 3-4 in Cleveland.
The only good part about this...as a good special teamer...he might pave the way for Jarrett Bush to finally be shown the door.
The only good part about this...as a good special teamer...he might pave the way for Jarrett Bush to finally be shown the door.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I seem to remeber Holliday having some attitude problems which, along with an inflated sense of self-importance, helped him out the door. If my memory is correct he is not the kind of guy I want mentoring anyone. I remember him too as a player. He was great for one play and then would take off the next. No fond nostalgia here for him, just a sense that he always was less than his physical gifts allowed.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I will say this about Holiday, the packers could have supported him some through injuries, a pectoral muscle and hamstrings, if I recall, and not pushed Cletidus Hunt in his face. Had they he might have stayed and grown with the team.
This reminds me, just thinking of the name Cletidus Hunt I am reminded of just what Mike Sherman did and how fortunate I feel now to have someone else in charge. The name Cletidus gives me shivers and nausea. Thompson may not be perfect, but he does all right.
This reminds me, just thinking of the name Cletidus Hunt I am reminded of just what Mike Sherman did and how fortunate I feel now to have someone else in charge. The name Cletidus gives me shivers and nausea. Thompson may not be perfect, but he does all right.
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bcr8f
Footballguy
The issue was pay. After Sherman offered Joe Johnsin a huge contract they couldn't pay Holiday.
Kleck
Footballguy
Bush was tendered, so unless another team signs him, he'll mostly likely be on the 2009 roster. I don't know how cutting a tendered player works. I'd assume it can't be done until restricted free agency ends (April 17th?), but at that point his tender offer would become a guaranteed contract.
Phase of the Game
Footballguy
It was more than the Joe Johnson contract.http://tundravision.blogspot.com/2009/03/i...e-holliday.html
Both Greg Bedard and the boys over at CheeseHeadTV made mention today of the possibility of bringing in former Packer Vonnie Holliday, recently cut by the Miami Dolphins and looking for a job at the ripe old age of 33. The idea of bringing back ol' Vonnie seems to be intruiging, if for no other reason, because we just lost Colin Cole and missed out on Chris Canty.
My guess is we have the roster spot available.
Taking two other players into consideration are Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila and Justin Harrell. Harrell, of course, is Ted Thompson's own Jamal Reynolds, an apparent reach and bust in the first round. But, even more interesting is that Harrell's roster spot this past season was made available by cutting KGB.
The timing has some irony.
At the end of the 2002 season, the Packers were gearing up to sign Holliday, but didn't want to buck up as much as Vonnie was hoping for. He had a very strong 2001 season, and an injury-plagued 2002 finished with a surge for Holliday. New GM Mike Sherman didn't meet the offer of the Chiefs, who gave Holliday a $21.3 million, 5-year contract with $4 million guaranteed.
(sidebar: compared to the deals signed by Haynesworth and Canty, that almost seems laughable, doesn't it?)
Where does the irony come to all of this? We can debate whether or not Holliday might have been worth that huge of a contract, and we know that such contracts later became the bane of Mike Sherman's tenure as GM. But, Holliday's departure led directly to a number of other events that have affected the Packer defensive line all the way to this day.
The Packers turned around and gave a pass-rush specialist, Kabeer Gbaja Biamila, a ton of cash. The $37 million dollar, seven-year deal forced KGB to become a full-time player, and painfully exposed him as a one-dimensional player for the next five seasons. Expensively so.
He also signed an underachieving defensive tackle named Cletidus Hunt to a six-year, $25 million dollar contract. I really don't have to remind you how that situation turned out for the Packers.
Sherman then also turned around and signed another inconsistent defensive linemen in Grady Jackson, another couple-of-plays-a-game guy that struggled with his weight.
The investments made previously in Joe Johnson and Jamal Reynolds quickly proved to be failed plans, leaving the Packers even further behind in the 2003 season. KGB made the Pro Bowl that year based purely on his sack statistics, but was a liability on most of the defensive snaps not involving those 10 sacks. The depletion of the line with the departure of Johnson and failure of Reynolds to develop left the Packers defensive line very vulnerable.
Now, looking back on that contract that Sherman wouldn't match for Vonnie Holliday, it does make you think how much different our line may have been if he would have shelled out. The line reached perhaps its lowest point in the 2005 season. It was during these years that Holliday was having some of his best seasons playing along the interior for the Chiefs and the Dolphins.
Interestingly enough, with the exception of a guy named BJ Sander, it is Mike Sherman's swings-and-misses along the defensive line that spelled the end of his days as GM of the Packers. The ill-advised selection of Jamal Reynolds, the free agency pickups of Grady Jackson and Joe Johnson, the overpaying (and subsequent overuse) of KGB and Cletidus Hunt, draft picks Kenny Peterson, James Lee, Donnell Washington, Corey Williams, ...the list goes on.
And now, the idea that Vonnie Holliday could return to the Packers to finish out his career, just months after KGB was cut from the team, makes you almost wonder if there wasn't some sort of curse hovering over this team since 2003. For years, things just haven't seemed to work out along that line, whether it be injuries, lack of production, or just plain failure to launch.
Would the signing of Holliday have changed some of the subsequent moves, like Hunt or KGB? Would the Packers have been set at DE for years with Kampman and Vonnie, allowing Cullen Jenkins to remain inside with Ryan Pickett? Would KGB have remained in his destructive role as a pass-rush specialist, instead of becoming a full-time mediocre defensive end?
Those are questions we'll never know the answer to. But, if you are looking to improve our DL, bring in some veteran leadership to a new scheme, and add "Packer People" to the roster, you could do worse than bringing back Vonnie Holliday.
And if there's a chance that signing him will break a six-year jinx along the line...?
sho nuff
Footballguy
Don't kill my dreams of finally being rid of him. Whats wrong with you?
