*** OFFICIAL *** COVID-19 CoronaVirus Thread. Fresh epidemic fears as child pneumonia cases surge in Europe after China outbreak. NOW in USA (12 Viewers)

[Galileo]

Was thinking about ordering take out tonight for the family.  I am happy to support local business in this way, but at the same time, it seems a little hypocritical to contribute to the scenario that these people are still out there working...groups in the restaurant, delivery people interacting with the community, etc...

 

[Doug B]

Would it work to stop this (would letting people “out” in a month just mean outbreaks then rather than now)?

Buy it or don't (The Hammer and Dance article).

 

[offdee]

What exactly does “shelter in place” mean?  Seeing reports that Illinois getting this order at midnight tonight. I have a new puppy being delivered from Ohio and we’re meeting at a McDonald’s in Hickory Hills, IL at 9am tomorrow morning (I’m coming from Milwaukee). Any issues in just making the exchange and driving right back home? 

 

[PinkydaPimp]

Was thinking about ordering take out tonight for the family.  I am happy to support local business in this way, but at the same time, it seems a little hypocritical to contribute to the scenario that these people are still out there working...groups in the restaurant, delivery people interacting with the community, etc...

Yea this is why i haven’t.  Seems risky and also doesn’t promote social distancing.

 

[Doug B]

What exactly does “shelter in place” mean?  Seeing reports that Illinois getting this order at midnight tonight. I have a new puppy being delivered from Ohio and we’re meeting at a McDonald’s in Hickory Hills, IL at 9am tomorrow morning (I’m coming from Milwaukee). Any issues in just making the exchange and driving right back home? 

Probably not. That Mickey D's will likely be closed, so you're really just meeting the puppy deliverers in the McD's parking lot. Probably a non-zero chance of a cop stopping over to tell you guys something ... but not that much of a chance.

 

[Cjw_55106]

What exactly does “shelter in place” mean?  Seeing reports that Illinois getting this order at midnight tonight. I have a new puppy being delivered from Ohio and we’re meeting at a McDonald’s in Hickory Hills, IL at 9am tomorrow morning (I’m coming from Milwaukee). Any issues in just making the exchange and driving right back home? 

It usually means residents are required to stay inside and can go out only for necessities.

 

[matttyl]

Buy it or don't (The Hammer and Dance article).

Right from the summary, ”there shouldn’t be a big peak of infections afterwards.”

we’re putting a lot of hope in that word “shouldn’t”, especially with a virus we’re still learning about.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

And Florida has been behind in terms of safety-based public policy. State should be locked down, not just the beaches.

I don't know what that term lockdown means to you but it's ignorant and Gov Cuomo from New York made that very clear yesterday. Some of his words...

"You have to allow people that work in hospitals, emergency personnel, all those folks need services open so they can actually do what folks want them to do." My wife works at a hospital. There is no way you can just lockdown an entire state and quite frankly it's pretty abrasive right now to just wish everyone huddled in their living room on lockdown right now...it almost sounds like you get a RISE out of saying it. "Lockdown" and "Shelter in Place" was really a term from the early World Wars where people needed to stay inside when bombs were being dropped at close proximity, this is night and day compared to that.

Lots of folks died in the hospital last night in America, many were not from this Chinese/19 Flu and nobody shed a tear for anyone with cancer or other ailments or perhaps the more common flu which takes tens of thousands yearly without much public outcry. 

The level of bananas right now is exceeding even the first few hours after 9-11 and maybe that feels like a stretch for some but I have never seen this level of panic. 

 

[pollardsvision]

Would it be constitutional?

Would people comply?

Would we have anarchy In the streets?

Would it work to stop this (would letting people “out” in a month just mean outbreaks then rather than now)?

It think buying time for ramp up testing, and let hospitals get prepared would be the key here.

I don't think we ever get a handle on this and get back to normal until we rampant, fast testing.  We can handle/stop bigger outbreaks when we have rampant testing.

So, if we slow it down drastically now, while buying time for testing and preparation, I would think the outbreaks going forward won't cause as much disruption.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I guess the Midwest is a big place but this post is a week behind Michigan and Ohio. Not sure if it will pay off but we got a big head start on most of the country with shutting #### down.

I have friends that just returned from Spring Break in the Mobile area all the way thru both coastlines fo Florida. 

 

[shader]

Don't forget the Premier League. 

 

[shader]

I could see WHO's China report "overturned" in the future, too, as more is learned. Just really hard to know what the concrete facts are ... so much we can't view or measure, especially backwards in time.

I guess that's always possible.  But I haven't seen anything outside of China that sheds doubt on the info they gathered.

 

[offdee]

Probably not. That Mickey D's will likely be closed, so you're really just meeting the puppy deliverers in the McD's parking lot. Probably a non-zero chance of a cop stopping over to tell you guys something ... but not that much of a chance.

copied from article. 

Illinois residents  can still go to the grocery stores, put gas in their cars, take walks outside and make pharmacy runs. All local roads, including the interstate highways and tollways, will remain open to traffic, as well.

 

[parasaurolophus]

So is the 7% that Italy is experiencing right now.

But a lot of that is due to people not getting hospital care, because their hospitals are overrun. 

I don't believe this is true, at least prior to yesterday.  

I think it might be true starting right now, and that might explain the big jump in the reports today, but thus far there is no data to back this up.The Remuzzi's paper in the lancet from last friday predicted that hospitals would be at full capacity starting today. Every thing else I have seen or read coming out of Italy, other than anecdotal stories here and there, also backs that up.

Most of the "choices" involved timing of death prior to today, not survival.

Italy's extremely high death rate is because of how many very old people have become sick. The success rate of intubating an 85 year old and having it do anything other than extend life for grief purposes is very low for non coronavirus cases. Not sure why people think it wouldnt be less successful for corona cases. 

ETA: Smoking. Forgot to mention smoking. High rate of smoking in the elderly crowd in italy too. 

 

[the moops]

It usually means residents are required to stay inside and can go out only for necessities.

Therapy dogs are a necessity

 

[Jefferson the Caregiver]

It's like folks are watching people in all these different places getting hit by trains, while they themselves are standing on train tracks and not even considering maybe they should get out of the way.

It really doesn't hit home until it starts affecting you though.  A lot of people are just programmed that way.  Can speak for myself, i had zero concerns about 3 weeks ago, even though i was hearing the onslaught in other countries.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

All beaches in Florida are not closed. 

I hope you are right but they shut them down where I am at it would seem. Martin County might be different, I'm right on the border of Palm Beach/Martin

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

My company operates apartments nationwide. We shut down all gyms, community rooms, etc. I am getting complaints from people in Iowa. 

 

[Wingnut]

Florida governor just banned ALL Florida restaurants from on site food/alcohol consumption. Take out only state wide.

 

[Redwes25]

I don't believe this is true, at least prior to yesterday.  

I think it might be true starting right now, and that might explain the big jump in the reports today, but thus far there is no data to back this up.The Remuzzi's paper in the lancet from last friday predicted that hospitals would be at full capacity starting today. Every thing else I have seen or read coming out of Italy, other than anecdotal stories here and there, also backs that up.

Most of the "choices" involved timing of death prior to today, not survival.

Italy's extremely high death rate is because of how many very old people have become sick. The success rate of intubating an 85 year old and having it do anything other than extend life for grief purposes is very low for non coronavirus cases. Not sure why people think it wouldnt be less successful for corona cases. 

I don’t think people can fully explain death rate anywhere at this point and if they think they can they are lying. 

 

[Wingnut]

I hope you are right but they shut them down where I am at it would seem. Martin County might be different, I'm right on the border of Palm Beach/Martin

Its coming soon. Most beaches are already closed or closing soon. West coast beaches closing at midnight tonight from Tampa bay to Sarasota.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Therapy dogs are a necessity

I was thinking more coney dogs.

 

[Koya]

I think we pretty much agree on the issues, but maybe not completely on the responsibility.

There needs to be some level of accountability for people who "live paycheck to paycheck".  Thats not a healthy lifesyste.  If thats the case for 15million people, those people situations need to change.  There are tons of people living within their means but without an amazing lifestyle.  This is because they make hard choices.  People need a lifestyle for which they can save for.  They need to be able to save 3-6 months of income.  If they cant save like that if they cant figure out how to prepare, we have a problem.

I say all this because I do not believe it is the govt responsibility to be the life-jacket for every person in the country who is living beyond their means.  Specifically, if folks cant make it 1-2 months without a job and only unemployment benefits, they need to change their lifestyle and not ask for more money from the govt.  First, its not fair to the rest of the tax payers, secondly, its a real burden to the folks who really do need the help.

People need to figure out how to live within their means.  If they cant, there needs to be accountability when situations like this happen.  Its not as simple as "give me more pie".

Thanks for the conversation.

I am a libertarian, not politically affiliated.  Yeah there need be responsibility - and we as a nation and society must be responsible for creating a situation where:

• We have an economy that doesnt provides a living wage for tens of millions. 
  
• While I am not a fan of expanded welfare, a couple thoughts
  
  Our nation engages in corporate welfare on any number of levels. From taxation (or lack thereof) to bailouts, to any number of other financial benefits for large corporations and key interests (fyi, you could consider organized labor an interest that in the end may help it's own members, but in many ways contributes to not lifting the national good. One example is how it is cost prohibitive to build transit in large part due to ridiculous and onerous labor provisions)
  
• If we choose, as a nation, to not properly educate and provide the right skills, then WE have the responsibility to provide for folks who don't have the ability/skills to do it themselves.  We are failing on the education and skills training level. That's our collective responsibility
  
• If we choose, as a nation, to not provide adequate access to affordable healthcare, then in a health crisis WE COLLECTIVELY must assume the responsibility for that failure.
  

[*]Finally, you seem to put the onus on individuals for living paycheck to paycheck.  Two thoughts because it's a shared responsibility

• 
  When a huge swath of the population works 2 or more jobs, 3-5 jobs in a household!, just to make ends meet, HOW CAN THEY SAVE?
  
• When we as a nation have all but halted new housing, especially attainably priced homes and apartments, WE HAVE TO TAKE COLLECTIVE RESPONSIBILITY for housing costs that eat up a third, or more, of people's income.
  
• When we create a society where the most affordable neighborhoods are located the furthest away from key employment, and when we double down on the lack of proximity by not having adequate transit, the cost burden for housing + transportation creates a situation where the blame absolutely is not on the household working a combined 120 hours plus a week to make ends meet.  It's selfish to blame others for these situations when our nation has forced them into that corner, imo.
  

For some, it's on them.  They don't save. They spend on luxuries or material items. 

But for most? We have created a structurally faulted economy where we give handouts to those who need it the least, while we constrain the benefits of a well oiled free market (too many stupid regulations, which we compensate for with corporate welfare), and subsequently have a lack of access to skills/education/housing/healthcare to enable people to "work hard and lift themselves up"

 

[jplvr]

I hope you are right but they shut them down where I am at it would seem. Martin County might be different, I'm right on the border of Palm Beach/Martin

Desantis was a little too vague for me. Most beaches aren't shut down officially, but he said something about large groups not allowed. I don't know what they're doing to enforce that. Just shut them down.

 

[Doug B]

I don't know what that term lockdown means to you but it's ignorant and Gov Cuomo from New York made that very clear yesterday. Some of his words...

"You have to allow people that work in hospitals, emergency personnel, all those folks need services open so they can actually do what folks want them to do." My wife works at a hospital. There is no way you can just lockdown an entire state and quite frankly it's pretty abrasive right now to just wish everyone huddled in their living room on lockdown right now...it almost sounds like you get a RISE out of saying it.

I don't think anyone is advocating this. Not even the person you responded to. It's generally understood that hospitals will stay open, groceries and pharmacies will stay open, deliveries will still be made, etc.

It's not -- and has never been -- an all-or-nothing proposition. Wasn't even that way in Wuhan.

 

[Jobber]

I got word that Minnesota Governor Walz was going to close liquor stores in his 2pm press conference. So I bailed out of a 1:00 meeting mid-way, and headed to Lakeville Liquor near me. Lot was full, with a line around the building. I said #### it and blasted over to Apple Valley liquor and was able to get in and out in 10 minutes. Though the stream of people coming in was about to overwhelm the place. 

FYI a lot of cities in Minnesota only allow municipal liquor stores, in case you were wondering about my naming these places as I did.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I don’t think people can fully explain death rate anywhere at this point and if they think they can they are lying. 

Of course nobody can fully explain every single death. You aren't making a valid point there. 

But if you think that some incredibly obvious conclusions can't be made so far about what has happened in Italy you just haven't looked at any collection of data yet. It isn't exactly subtle. 

 

[Anarchy99]

I don't know what that term lockdown means to you but it's ignorant and Gov Cuomo from New York made that very clear yesterday. Some of his words...

"You have to allow people that work in hospitals, emergency personnel, all those folks need services open so they can actually do what folks want them to do." My wife works at a hospital. There is no way you can just lockdown an entire state and quite frankly it's pretty abrasive right now to just wish everyone huddled in their living room on lockdown right now...it almost sounds like you get a RISE out of saying it. "Lockdown" and "Shelter in Place" was really a term from the early World Wars where people needed to stay inside when bombs were being dropped at close proximity, this is night and day compared to that.

Lots of folks died in the hospital last night in America, many were not from this Chinese/19 Flu and nobody shed a tear for anyone with cancer or other ailments or perhaps the more common flu which takes tens of thousands yearly without much public outcry. 

The level of bananas right now is exceeding even the first few hours after 9-11 and maybe that feels like a stretch for some but I have never seen this level of panic. 

What we are trying to avoid is the first few hours after 9-11 at the hospitals in NYC. Except now expand that to every hospital in the country. And instead of a few hours, now expand it to multiple weeks. That's the worst case outcome in terms of the health picture. A side effect would be all the other sick people and folks requiring care wouldn't be able to get it.

The panic may be a little extreme, but so is the indifference of a lot of people. I remember reading an article a few weeks ago that said by the time the smoke clears, all of us will know someone that died form the coronavirus . . . a family member, a neighbor, a coworker, a friend, a teacher, etc. I thought that was nuts at the time, but it doesn't sound as crazy now.

 

[Doug B]

Probably not. That Mickey D's will likely be closed, so you're really just meeting the puppy deliverers in the McD's parking lot. Probably a non-zero chance of a cop stopping over to tell you guys something ... but not that much of a chance.

copied from article. 

Illinois residents  can still go to the grocery stores, put gas in their cars, take walks outside and make pharmacy runs. All local roads, including the interstate highways and tollways, will remain open to traffic, as well.

Yeah ... that quote makes me think you guys will be fine.

 

[msommer]

What the heck took them so long?

Boris being smarter than everyone else

 

[tjnc09]

Italian virologist says open borders & fears over "racism" crippled Italy's response to coronavirus. Back in Feb, the Mayor of Florence encouraged Italians nationwide to hug Chinese people on the street & remove their face masks. Utter insanity.

Ooooooof.  Be racist or be dead.

 

[eoMMan]

All beaches in Florida are not closed. 

Tomorrow  at 6 am for Sarasota County. You still have time if you want some beach time.

 

[msommer]

I am a Spurs fan, I have been trying to forget the Premier League since January...

Yeah, not having to watch Mourinho being unable to motivate the squad to do #### all must be a blessing 

 

[Man In The Box]

New Jersey is following what New York has done. 

https://www.nj.com/coronavirus/2020/03/nonessential-businesses-will-be-shut-down-in-nj-due-to-coronavirus-outbreak-gov-murphy-says.html

 

[pollardsvision]

Italian virologist says open borders & fears over "racism" crippled Italy's response to coronavirus. Back in Feb, the Mayor of Florence encouraged Italians nationwide to hug Chinese people on the street & remove their face masks. Utter insanity.

Ooooooof.  Be racist or be dead.

There is a place between racism and hugging strangers in the street when a pandemic is breaking out.

BTW, random Italians had masks in February? It's late March and the most powerful country in the world is begging seamstresses to sew them for our healthcare workers.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I don't think anyone is advocating this. Not even the person you responded to. It's generally understood that hospitals will stay open, groceries and pharmacies will stay open, deliveries will still be made, etc.

It's not -- and has never been -- an all-or-nothing proposition. Wasn't even that way in Wuhan.

I understand and I don't go after individuals in here, I wasn't saying it was just one person but there seems to be an awful lot of glee on some folks faces at the thought of a lockdown. I don't get the excitement or to just blanket statement that everyone must stay inside for at least a few weeks with no end in sight...that's disturbing and a horror film to many individuals. 

 

[matttyl]

I just cut my own hair for the first time in 10+ years.  It looks horrible.  And I’m much more balding than I had previously thought.  

 

[Sinn Fein]

I understand and I don't go after individuals in here, I wasn't saying it was just one person but there seems to be an awful lot of glee on some folks faces at the thought of a lockdown. I don't get the excitement or to just blanket statement that everyone must stay inside for at least a few weeks with no end in sight...that's disturbing and a horror film to many individuals. 

Egads - I can't imagine people are gleeful about a lockdown.  That is simply bad news all the way around.

 

[Sputnikv8]

I just cut my own hair for the first time in 10+ years.  It looks horrible.  And I’m much more balding than I had previously thought.  

 

[gruecd]

30% of my household income vanishes in an instant

I work in financial services, and my income is directly correlated to the direction of the stock market.  So I feel your pain.

But no emergency account that will allow you to ride it out for a few months??

 

[tjnc09]

There is a place between racism and hugging strangers in the street when a pandemic is breaking out.

BTW, random Italians had masks in February? It's late March and the most powerful country in the world is begging seamstresses to sew them for our healthcare workers.

Uh, tons of random people have masks for all types of non-pandemic reasons.  

 

[AAABatteries]

It plays into it a ton.

If every single critical COVID patient could get billion-dollar care and have an entire ICU's staff thrown at their individual minute-by-minute care, the mortality rate would probably be tiny.

If, on the other hand, a lot of critical COVID patients end up in overrun healthcare systems and only get piecemeal care part of the time from exhausted, distracted healthcare providers ... then the mortality rate soars.

This is why I think conceiving of "mortality rate" as an intrinsic aspect of COVID is a giant mistake. "COVID only kills a low %!" No, not really -- a bunch of factors that stem from having COVID kills greater or fewer patients. Highly situational and sensitive to local healthcare conditions.

Had to go work so just getting back to this.  So when mortality rate is discussed for any disease it just ignores the contributing factors?  That was really more what I was asking.  That makes sense but I just wasn't sure.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Egads - I can't imagine people are gleeful about a lockdown.  That is simply bad news all the way around.

Gavin sure looks happy here.

ETA: should specify I am just making fun of the still they used. 

 

[Steve Tasker]

New Jersey is following what New York has done. 

https://www.nj.com/coronavirus/2020/03/nonessential-businesses-will-be-shut-down-in-nj-due-to-coronavirus-outbreak-gov-murphy-says.html

I know NY is getting some positive publicity about this, but has anyone really looked at the list of essential businesses?  What exactly is non-essential here?  From what I'm hearing anecdotally, this hasn't really changed anything for most companies.

 

[msommer]

Had to go work so just getting back to this.  So when mortality rate is discussed for any disease it just ignores the contributing factors?  That was really more what I was asking.  That makes sense but I just wasn't sure.

I think a better way of putting it is that they are baked into the final number

 

[Anarchy99]

That's not my concern. Wife works at a beachfront hotel. The minute they close either the beaches or all places of lodging, she's out of work. Already looking into driving for Doordash. This is not going to be a good time on the homefront if the proclamation is made state-wide. 30% of my household income vanishes in an instant. If we're effectively locked down for the next couple of months, I'll have to cancel all my upcoming trips, wipe out all excess spending, and probably liquidate one of my brokerage accounts at a minimum. 

The economic impact of this thing is going to be absolutely catastrophic. 

Your household will not be unique. A lot of people will be impacted. My income dropped by about 80% and I have 3 kids that are now out of work.

In my case, I already spoke with lenders and creditors (basically bank, mortgage, and credit card companies) on a what-are-you-guys-doing-if-the-feces-hits-the-fan inquiry? They said they have either implemented a plan or are developing one. As a for instance, Discover will let you start by missing a payment without any penalties (other than they will still charge you interest). They said they will revisit what else they can do the longer things drag on.

Clearly I can't speak for any financial institution, but I am guessing that most of them will have to let payments roll over from month to month (with the juice still running). It is not in their best interest to have everyone go bankrupt and lose their homes and cars and have their credit in the gutter. I would check with any place you have to make payments to in order to better assess what your payment options are.

 

[the moops]

Uh, tons of random people have masks for all types of non-pandemic reasons.  

I would guess that number is pretty small

 

[Man In The Box]

I know NY is getting some positive publicity about this, but has anyone really looked at the list of essential businesses?  What exactly is non-essential here?  From what I'm hearing anecdotally, this hasn't really changed anything for most companies.

I’m not sure. We’ll have to wait and see what Gov. Murphy has to say. I’m sure he has a press conference coming shortly. 

 

[shader]

New York is about to pass South Korea on the list of official cases

 

[Sinn Fein]

I would guess that number is pretty small

Probably, though I did stumble into a veritable gold mine when I realized that I bought a package of masks last summer when I was replacing some of our deck, and was cutting pressure treated wood.