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Official Hillary Clinton 2016 thread (6 Viewers)

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SaintsInDome2006 said:
The problem for me is that coughing is a sure sign of pneumonia, yes, true, and yet Hillary has been bedeviled by these coughing fits since January. I do think she has something respiratory going on since January at least.
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The fact that they are leaking these stories to People suggests, to me, very strongly that even her people know these stories would not hold up to even regular journalistic standards.

 
Sinn Fein said:
I think she had to show up.  That is why she was there.  She knew that not showing up would be bad politically - maybe just as bad as being shoved into a van because you have no muscle control.  

But, once there, she should have been hydrating continuously.  Not doing that was irresponsible.  Assuming the pneumonia is the real issue here....
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As small as that nit is I am surprised you were able to find it to pick at it.  Well done.

 
TobiasFunke said:
While you all are debating the reaction if another candidate had fainted or come down with pneumonia at age 68, it's probably worth noting that virtually any other candidate except Obama could have gotten away with simply not attending due to illness IMO.  Take a pass, claim a bad flu bug, find some other way to show you care about the victims of 9/11 and national security a couple days later, and that's that.  Only Clinton and Obama would get killed for bailing because of the various types of mud slung at them. That, IMO, is where Clinton is being held to a different standard. 
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What you don't do is play into your opponents' worst expectations and accusations. Hillary easily could have advised people that she had health issues - heck, just tell people she's sick with the flu or pneumonia - then don't attend. Obama does not have this problem. It would be more like if Obama showed up with a dashiki one day and said oh hey he's just celebrating Kenyan Independence Day for no reason at all.

 
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dutch said:
As small as that nit is I am surprised you were able to find it to pick at it.  Well done.
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:shrug:

Drinking plenty of fluids is not that hard to follow.  If you think you are getting over heated, even more so.  Someone on her staff should have had bottled water ready.  And there were reports that bottled water was readily available to the VIP guests.  If you know you have pneumonia, this is just common sense.

 
timschochet said:
The other thing going on here is sexism. If Hillary was a man, her pneumonia would still be a big story, no doubt. But there would be significantly less concern. Eisenhower was re-elected after having a heart attack; he was perceived as "tough". John McCain had had cancer, and it was barely an issue in that campaign (despite the fact that his VP choice was scary.) 

Men in politics are assumed to be strong; women are assumed to be weak. 
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Again you fail to understand the source of her self-inflicted ills.  She conceals and lies.  If she owned up to things early and provided transparency, instead of clearly installing an alternate reality she expects to be accepted, we wouldn't be here.  I'd support her.  But that's not her character.  And the pneumonia story is unlikely given the fact her neurologist carries a Diazapem pen for seizures, which is likely what she suffered yesterday.  We won't know because Hillary Clinton and her team lie.  It's just what they do.

 
TobiasFunke said:
For now the only real damage done is that it buried some negative Trump stories this weekend like the one about him scamming 9/11 small business recovery funds or using his Foundation (i.e. other people's money) to buy a six foot self-portrait.  She might take a small hit in the polls maybe this week but if she's fine for the debates in two weeks she'll get it back. Might even help her then by lowering the bar and giving her a "comeback" narrative. 

If she's not fine in two weeks, then it becomes an issue.
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Hope you brought a shove if the bar is going to be lowered.

That said, Hillary's corpse would beat Trump straight up in a debate.

 
Biden speaking in the Charlotte area today at a community college.  It is ridiculous how much better of a decision he would have been than Clinton

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
What you don't do is play into your opponents' worst expectations and accusations. Hillary either could have advised people that she had health issues - heck, just tell people she's sick with the flu or pneumonia - then don't attend. Obama does not have this problem. It would be more like if Obama showed up with a dashiki one day and said oh hey he's just celebrating Kenyan Independence Day for no reason at all.
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No chance this would have worked.  Given the rumors the Trumpkins have been spreading about her for weeks it would have been almost as damaging as what actually happened, or maybe even worse. She had to roll the dice.

Anyway, my post was about the higher standard to which she's held, not about whether her campaign handled it perfectly and made the right decisions.  Obviously they didn't.  But if Trump was scheduled to attend he could have just bailed with any reasonable-sounding excuse and taken no hit at all. Hell, he's bailed on a debate and taken a vacation in the middle of the campaign and nobody sounded any alarms- or if they tried the press and the electorate mostly just ignored it.  If he turned around the next week and gave away a million of Vince McMahon's money to the memorial fund he probably would have ended up benefiting from it.

 
Slapdash said:
Biden speaking in the Charlotte area today at a community college.  It is ridiculous how much better of a decision he would have been than Clinton
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It would be nice if supporters at least acknowledge that Hillary has been unnecessarily risky as a candidate. The past history, the unfavorables, the FBI investigation, the post investigation outfall, and now the health issues.

Meanwhile we are repeatedly beat about the head with the fact that Trump is the most dangerous man in America, so naturally we are rolling with the riskiest Democrat imaginable against him.

 
timschochet said:
It is absolutely sexism plus the double standard that always surrounds Hillary Clinton.

Of course if McCain had fainted it would be a huge story. But do you think there would have been this sort of conspiracy talk? Body doubles? Parkinson's disease?
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If she farted and someone said it smelled you would claim sexism because no one called out Garfield for letting one rip. 

 
TobiasFunke said:
No chance this would have worked.  Given the rumors the Trumpkins have been spreading about her for weeks it would have been almost as damaging as what actually happened, or maybe even worse. She had to roll the dice.

Anyway, my post was about the higher standard to which she's held, not about whether her campaign handled it perfectly and made the right decisions.  Obviously they didn't.  But if Trump was scheduled to attend he could have just bailed with any reasonable-sounding excuse and taken no hit at all. Hell, he's bailed on a debate and taken a vacation in the middle of the campaign and nobody sounded any alarms- or if they tried the press and the electorate mostly just ignored it.  If he turned around the next week and gave away a million of Vince McMahon's money to the memorial fund he probably would have ended up benefiting from it.
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I am happy to agree with all this. Let me just say with all sincerity I hope she gets better and refutes all the claims against her about her health. I really hope she has not been dissembling about the true nature of things. Because that's the real, bigger danger for her campaign IMO.

As for Trump yeah it pisses me off that he repeatedly gets away with stuff on this very issue. Is the press going to bring up his 4-F deferment? This is a guy who won't even produce a real medical certification from a serious doctor.Same guy says the AIDS/STD scare of the 80s/90s was his 'personal Vietnam.' He's hardly the picture of health and he's 3 years older.

 
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TobiasFunke said:
No chance this would have worked.  Given the rumors the Trumpkins have been spreading about her for weeks it would have been almost as damaging as what actually happened, or maybe even worse. She had to roll the dice.

Anyway, my post was about the higher standard to which she's held, not about whether her campaign handled it perfectly and made the right decisions.  Obviously they didn't.  But if Trump was scheduled to attend he could have just bailed with any reasonable-sounding excuse and taken no hit at all. Hell, he's bailed on a debate and taken a vacation in the middle of the campaign and nobody sounded any alarms- or if they tried the press and the electorate mostly just ignored it.  If he turned around the next week and gave away a million of Vince McMahon's money to the memorial fund he probably would have ended up benefiting from it.
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I don't think there has been much concern/accusations/rumors about Trump's health. If there was no concern about Hillary's health she could have used any excuse also. Maybe she is just fine, but there are too many incidents that even the the main stream media is asking questions. 

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
It would be nice if supporters at least acknowledge that Hillary has been unnecessarily risky as a candidate. The past history, the unfavorables, the FBI investigation, the post investigation outfall, and now the health issues.

Meanwhile we are repeatedly beat about the head with the fact that Trump is the most dangerous man in America, so naturally we are rolling with the riskiest Democrat imaginable against him.
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I don't think anyone has held her up as a model candidate, have they? At least not around here as far as I know, with maybe one or two exceptions. Of course she's risky.

The counterargument has always been that other candidates had risks too, some known and some unknowable before a general election campaign. For example I know Biden seems sane now, but keep in mind that before this ####show of a campaign he was widely perceived as too gaffe-prone and unfiltered- stuff that wouldn't have mattered in the era of Trump but might have mattered against a sane, competent, human opponent. He's also run for president twice already and not made it very far either time- once losing to Dukakis and a plagiarism "scandal" (seems so quaint now) and once to Obama and ... Clinton.  Also in a race so clearly divided on racial and gender lines it's not clear that Biden could pull the same support Clinton seems to be getting from women and African-Americans.

 
TobiasFunke said:
While you all are debating the reaction if another candidate had fainted or come down with pneumonia at age 68, it's probably worth noting that virtually any other candidate except Obama could have gotten away with simply not attending due to illness IMO.  Take a pass, claim a bad flu bug, find some other way to show you care about the victims of 9/11 and national security a couple days later, and that's that.  Only Clinton and Obama would get killed for bailing because of the various types of mud slung at them. That, IMO, is where Clinton is being held to a different standard. 
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I'm sorry but this is a total BS excuse. Impossible to measure b/c it didn't happen...but yet you'll tell us that it as fact. Neither missed so how can you say how it WOULD have affected either of them. 

if....IF...either off them did make this claim of skipping b/c of illness,  yes there will be a section of the media who will kill them....along with another section of the media who will support them. THAT's the problem, is that the media is shaping the story based on which channel you listen to. 

However if you want to pull the 'double standard card' in a made-up situation about health, Hillary has a visible record of not being 100% at multiple times. The coughing, the ticks, the fall. So yes, if she was to skip it b/c of being sick, I would expect a little more scrutiny over it b/c of the known past.

Arguments based no imaginary things can't really be debated.....and pulling the 'just because' card is baseless. There is media who's job it is (or job they made it to be) to attack the 'other side' regardless of which way the wind blows. 

 
timschochet said:
Good morning. 

As much as I love the discussion and debate in this forum, probably the biggest drawback to this or any other Internet forum is the amount of speculation and assumption that takes place whenever something like this happens. The most wild crap gets talked about seriously, and every discussion of this sort begins with the contention "they're lying to us!" Is taken for granted. 

I believe Tobias is right. In real life this will be discussed for a few days, but by the time of her debate it will be forgotten. (If health conditions show up at her debate she's in serious trouble. But I doubt that will happen.) 
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Tim,

Their story is they took a 68 year old woman who was diagnosed with pneumonia two days earlier, and had to be carried into a van with her feet dragging behind her, to her daughter's apartment. If their story is true, then they're ####### morons. Combine that with the fact that they had to be lying about the heat exhaustion for a few hours if she was diagnosed with pneumonia on Friday.

"They're lying to us" is not a contention. It's a fact. The question is how much are they lying to us. If they were lying at first, but then told the truth later, then they're morons for taking a limp 68 year old woman with pneumonia to her daughter apartment. They don't come off as being intelligent unless the lying is still going on. 

 
TobiasFunke said:
No chance this would have worked.  Given the rumors the Trumpkins have been spreading about her for weeks it would have been almost as damaging as what actually happened, or maybe even worse. She had to roll the dice.

Anyway, my post was about the higher standard to which she's held, not about whether her campaign handled it perfectly and made the right decisions.  Obviously they didn't.  But if Trump was scheduled to attend he could have just bailed with any reasonable-sounding excuse and taken no hit at all. Hell, he's bailed on a debate and taken a vacation in the middle of the campaign and nobody sounded any alarms- or if they tried the press and the electorate mostly just ignored it.  If he turned around the next week and gave away a million of Vince McMahon's money to the memorial fund he probably would have ended up benefiting from it.
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considering she was secretary of state and started her own private email server where she sent and rec'd thousands of classified documents and didn't go to jail, i'd say she's held to a much lower standard  than most.

 
glvsav37 said:
I'm sorry but this is a total BS excuse. Impossible to measure b/c it didn't happen...but yet you'll tell us that it as fact. Neither missed so how can you say how it WOULD have affected either of them. 

if....IF...either off them did make this claim of skipping b/c of illness,  yes there will be a section of the media who will kill them....along with another section of the media who will support them. THAT's the problem, is that the media is shaping the story based on which channel you listen to. 

However if you want to pull the 'double standard card' in a made-up situation about health, Hillary has a visible record of not being 100% at multiple times. The coughing, the ticks, the fall. So yes, if she was to skip it b/c of being sick, I would expect a little more scrutiny over it b/c of the known past.

Arguments based no imaginary things can't really be debated.....and pulling the 'just because' card is baseless. There is media who's job it is (or job they made it to be) to attack the 'other side' regardless of which way the wind blows. 
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I don't think you're actually sorry.

Anyway- everyone has a visible record of not being 100% at multiple times.  The difference is that nobody else had to deal with an army of sleazy dooshbags supporting a bigoted moron claiming a conspiracy to cover up brain damage or superAIDS or whatever else they were peddling.  That put her in a unique bind yesterday.  Just as the crap thrown at Obama about not loving America enough and being a secret Muslim and all that would have put him in a different but similar bind in the same circumstances.

 
TobiasFunke said:
No chance this would have worked.  Given the rumors the Trumpkins have been spreading about her for weeks it would have been almost as damaging as what actually happened, or maybe even worse. She had to roll the dice.

Anyway, my post was about the higher standard to which she's held, not about whether her campaign handled it perfectly and made the right decisions.  Obviously they didn't.  But if Trump was scheduled to attend he could have just bailed with any reasonable-sounding excuse and taken no hit at all. Hell, he's bailed on a debate and taken a vacation in the middle of the campaign and nobody sounded any alarms- or if they tried the press and the electorate mostly just ignored it.  If he turned around the next week and gave away a million of Vince McMahon's money to the memorial fund he probably would have ended up benefiting from it.
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yea...not a spec of news on that....google

 
glvsav37 said:
yea...not a spec of news on that....google
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Did I say it wasn't reported and didn't make the news?  No. I said nobody sounded any alarms about it- for example I don't recall anyone asking whether bailing on the debate or the campaign meant he lacked the stamina or health to be president. Or if they did it was mostly ignored.

If you want to argue about something I said, that's fine.  If you want to argue about something I didn't say you're gonna have to find another dance partner.

 
TobiasFunke said:
I don't think you're actually sorry.

Anyway- everyone has a visible record of not being 100% at multiple times.  The difference is that nobody else had to deal with an army of sleazy dooshbags supporting a bigoted moron claiming a conspiracy to cover up brain damage or superAIDS or whatever else they were peddling.  That put her in a unique bind yesterday.  Just as the crap thrown at Obama about not loving America enough and being a secret Muslim and all that would have put him in a different but similar bind in the same circumstances.
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your right, I'm not sorry....actually I'm ashamed. 

I'm ashamed that this election for the highest office has turned into the equivalent of a gang bang gonzo porno.

so before you paint me oner of those wonderful words you used to describe Trump supporters...realize i'm not. I actually hate both of these #######s equally. But I hate blatant bull sh!t more. And thats all these 2 campaigns have boiled down to.   

Hillary is a liar and sick

Trump is a egomaniac and a ****.

neither are good for this country. I can't excuse the DNC covering for HRC's obvious illnesses any more then I can excuse Trumps stupidity for opening his mouth about the Gold Star Familiy. Likewise, I can't excuse the DNC for putting that family on stage where they knew that  Trump couldn't shut up any more then I can approve Trump for harboring on HRC's illnesses. 

Its not about this country any more its about getting sheep to line up 

 
Politician Spock said:
Tim,

Their story is they took a 68 year old woman who was diagnosed with pneumonia two days earlier, and had to be carried into a van with her feet dragging behind her, to her daughter's apartment. If their story is true, then they're ####### morons. Combine that with the fact that they had to be lying about the heat exhaustion for a few hours if she was diagnosed with pneumonia on Friday.

"They're lying to us" is not a contention. It's a fact. The question is how much are they lying to us. If they were lying at first, but then told the truth later, then they're morons for taking a limp 68 year old woman with pneumonia to her daughter apartment. They don't come off as being intelligent unless the lying is still going on. 
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Confirmation of their lying was confirmed by them leaking a story to People magazine of all places. Of course, perhaps her campaign didn't leak the story as maybe People all of a sudden decided to beef up their investigative journalism division which prior to today contained nobody ever.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Did I say it wasn't reported and didn't make the news?  No. I said nobody sounded any alarms about it- for example I don't recall anyone asking whether bailing on the debate or the campaign meant he lacked the stamina or health to be president. Or if they did it was mostly ignored.

If you want to argue about something I said, that's fine.  If you want to argue about something I didn't say you're gonna have to find another dance partner.
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no...you said they ignored it...which they didn't.

its fine...I honestly don't have a horse in this race other then to stop paining #### with wide brushes. With the current media landscape, no one is held to any higher standard then another...its your own (anyone's own) perception of what they choose to hear and read that makes them think someone is held to anything. There is plenty of mud being slung, just which slimball you choose to stand near. 

But i find it ironic that you don't want to debate on something you 'didn't say' when your argument above was about something that "didn't actually happen" i..e. a candidate skipping the event due to illness. 

It didn't happen but you were fine taking a stance on that.

 
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glvsav37 said:
your right, I'm not sorry....actually I'm ashamed. 

I'm ashamed that this election for the highest office has turned into the equivalent of a gang bang gonzo porno.

so before you paint me oner of those wonderful words you used to describe Trump supporters...realize i'm not. I actually hate both of these #######s equally. But I hate blatant bull sh!t more. And thats all these 2 campaigns have boiled down to.   

Hillary is a liar and sick

Trump is a egomaniac and a ****.

neither are good for this country. I can't excuse the DNC covering for HRC's obvious illnesses any more then I can excuse Trumps stupidity for opening his mouth about the Gold Star Familiy. Likewise, I can't excuse the DNC for putting that family on stage where they knew that  Trump couldn't shut up any more then I can approve Trump for harboring on HRC's illnesses. 

Its not about this country any more its about getting sheep to line up 
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Nice rant.  Feel better?

I didn't paint you as anything, other than someone who misrepresented what I said. I don't know you and was careful not to assume you are a Trump supporter. I'm glad to hear that you are not. If you'd like I'd be happy to try to convince you that voting for Clinton is the right thing to do for the country, despite her imperfections.  If not, that's cool too.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Did I say it wasn't reported and didn't make the news?  No. I said nobody sounded any alarms about it- for example I don't recall anyone asking whether bailing on the debate or the campaign meant he lacked the stamina or health to be president. Or if they did it was mostly ignored.

If you want to argue about something I said, that's fine.  If you want to argue about something I didn't say you're gonna have to find another dance partner.
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you seem to have missed the several times Hillary has seemed sick, or just ####ed up.   Here's a reminder:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqbDBRWb63s

 
Politician Spock said:
Tim,

Their story is they took a 68 year old woman who was diagnosed with pneumonia two days earlier, and had to be carried into a van with her feet dragging behind her, to her daughter's apartment. If their story is true, then they're ####### morons. Combine that with the fact that they had to be lying about the heat exhaustion for a few hours if she was diagnosed with pneumonia on Friday.

"They're lying to us" is not a contention. It's a fact. The question is how much are they lying to us. If they were lying at first, but then told the truth later, then they're morons for taking a limp 68 year old woman with pneumonia to her daughter apartment. They don't come off as being intelligent unless the lying is still going on. 
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:lmao:

I've noticed, Politician Spock, that whenever you make any analysis of either Hillary Clinton or the people around her, your conclusion is always one that puts them in the worst possible light. You're not the only one that does this, of course, but it's always startling to read coming from you because, despite my various disagreements with you on a host of issues, I know that that you are both non-partisan (in terms of liberal vs. conservative) , and very intelligent.

Are the two options you provided (either devious lying or morons) possible? Of course. Does either one ring truthful? Not to me. What does ring truthful is close to what Axelrod was talking about- Hillary's excessive need for privacy, her (not unreasonable, but in this instance regrettable) fear that if her pneumonia was known, it would hurt her campaign. So what likely happened is that she was told on Friday that her cold was actually a bout of pneumonia, and she decided to "soldier on", hoping that it wouldn't get out to the public because of Trump's continual comments about her "stamina". That also means its very likely that few people in the Clinton campaign knew about the pneumonia, which accounts for the confusion immediately after the fainting spell. For me at least, the whole thing starts to make sense in a way which excludes both of your alternatives.

There's a scene in the last season of The West Wing in which Senator Vinick (Alan Alda) breaks his hand, and is desperate to cover it up, because he does not want any contrast with his more energetic opponent. Earlier he has a cold and tries to cover that up as well, despite a doctor telling him he needs to take it easy or it could become pneumonia. I think we're witnessing some of that playing out in real life before our eyes.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Nice rant.  Feel better?

I didn't paint you as anything, other than someone who misrepresented what I said. I don't know you and was careful not to assume you are a Trump supporter. I'm glad to hear that you are not. If you'd like I'd be happy to try to convince you that voting for Clinton is the right thing to do for the country, despite her imperfections.  If not, that's cool too.
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TobiasFunke said:
I don't think you're actually sorry.

Anyway- everyone has a visible record of not being 100% at multiple times.  The difference is that nobody else had to deal with an army of sleazy dooshbags supporting a bigoted moron claiming a conspiracy to cover up brain damage or superAIDS or whatever else they were peddling.  That put her in a unique bind yesterday.  Just as the crap thrown at Obama about not loving America enough and being a secret Muslim and all that would have put him in a different but similar bind in the same circumstances.
Click to expand...

 
Trump is pounding Hillary right now in Baltimore for calling half the voters deplorable on Friday.  This truly was her 47% moment.  Very damaging.

 
And again, here is where the sexism plays a part. If Hillary was a man, she would have likely told the media on Friday that she had pneumonia and was taking some days off to recuperate. That would have been a big story, and there would have been some rumors until Hillary was seen again healthy- but nothing like the feeding frenzy going on here.

But because Hillary is a woman, she likely didn't want to reveal that she had pneumonia, because she has to appear energetic at all times to make up for the fact that she is not a man, and therefore in the eyes of the public, weaker.

 
timschochet said:
:lmao:

I've noticed, Politician Spock, that whenever you make any analysis of either Hillary Clinton or the people around her, your conclusion is always one that puts them in the worst possible light. You're not the only one that does this, of course, but it's always startling to read coming from you because, despite my various disagreements with you on a host of issues, I know that that you are both non-partisan (in terms of liberal vs. conservative) , and very intelligent.

Are the two options you provided (either devious lying or morons) possible? Of course. Does either one ring truthful? Not to me. What does ring truthful is close to what Axelrod was talking about- Hillary's excessive need for privacy, her (not unreasonable, but in this instance regrettable) fear that if her pneumonia was known, it would hurt her campaign. So what likely happened is that she was told on Friday that her cold was actually a bout of pneumonia, and she decided to "soldier on", hoping that it wouldn't get out to the public because of Trump's continual comments about her "stamina". That also means its very likely that few people in the Clinton campaign knew about the pneumonia, which accounts for the confusion immediately after the fainting spell. For me at least, the whole thing starts to make sense in a way which excludes both of your alternatives.

There's a scene in the last season of The West Wing in which Senator Vinick (Alan Alda) breaks his hand, and is desperate to cover it up, because he does not want any contrast with his more energetic opponent. Earlier he has a cold and tries to cover that up as well, despite a doctor telling him he needs to take it easy or it could become pneumonia. I think we're witnessing some of that playing out in real life before our eyes.
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Except in real life you don't get to reshoot the scene if you mess up or mis-speak.

 
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