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Ohio train derailment (1 Viewer)

I see an Amtrak crew working on the tracks quite often. I get your point though. It’s low hanging fruit for presidential candidates to talk about the crumbling infrastructure, easy to get funding. Problem is too much pork is added in, and little gets accomplished.
Let me preface by saying I have no idea if what I'm about to type is true or not BUT:

You mentioned Amtrak. What does Amtrak haul? Mostly people. Is Amtrak heavily subsidized by the government? Do they use the same tracks as these hazardous loads are using? I'm speculating that people trains go where people want to go, nice country sides, big cities, sight seeing, etc. Probably (again, I'm speculating) not the same places you would see a train like the one that derailed in East Palestine :confused::tinfoilhat::shrug:

What are you asking here? Amtrak tracks get a higher level of maintenance than others, if that's the question. They also only ride on a small portion of the rail network, and a tiny amount is dedicated solely to Amtrak.
I’m not asking anything. It’s just a popular campaign platform to want to build up our infrastructure (As we should). Unfortunately we seem to fall woefully short as our roads and bridges decay.

Most of the arguments about this indicate that the true need to solve the issues in the current system is double tracking with turn outs every X so many miles or so. To do this would take something about the size of Vermont out of the hands of private citizens and would cost trillions just in the real estate transactions. The time horizon is so long that it is not clear that the ports that connect these rails up will literally exist anymore with sea level rise. I tend to agree that the rail networks are in the top 10 of required improvements, but the scope may be much larger than anyone can fathom requiring high speed passenger rail to more or less replace domestic air, and passenger car travel.

Is this finally acknowledged, and now kind of swept under the (soaked) rug and whatnot? Or is it still "ride or die" debatable in some corners?

Just curious. Asking for a friend(s).
 
I see an Amtrak crew working on the tracks quite often. I get your point though. It’s low hanging fruit for presidential candidates to talk about the crumbling infrastructure, easy to get funding. Problem is too much pork is added in, and little gets accomplished.
Let me preface by saying I have no idea if what I'm about to type is true or not BUT:

You mentioned Amtrak. What does Amtrak haul? Mostly people. Is Amtrak heavily subsidized by the government? Do they use the same tracks as these hazardous loads are using? I'm speculating that people trains go where people want to go, nice country sides, big cities, sight seeing, etc. Probably (again, I'm speculating) not the same places you would see a train like the one that derailed in East Palestine :confused::tinfoilhat::shrug:

What are you asking here? Amtrak tracks get a higher level of maintenance than others, if that's the question. They also only ride on a small portion of the rail network, and a tiny amount is dedicated solely to Amtrak.
I’m not asking anything. It’s just a popular campaign platform to want to build up our infrastructure (As we should). Unfortunately we seem to fall woefully short as our roads and bridges decay.

Most of the arguments about this indicate that the true need to solve the issues in the current system is double tracking with turn outs every X so many miles or so. To do this would take something about the size of Vermont out of the hands of private citizens and would cost trillions just in the real estate transactions. The time horizon is so long that it is not clear that the ports that connect these rails up will literally exist anymore with sea level rise. I tend to agree that the rail networks are in the top 10 of required improvements, but the scope may be much larger than anyone can fathom requiring high speed passenger rail to more or less replace domestic air, and passenger car travel.

Is this finally acknowledged, and now kind of swept under the (soaked) rug and whatnot? Or is it still "ride or die" debatable in some corners?

Just curious. Asking for a friend(s).
+2 feet in 2030 seems inevitable.
 
I see an Amtrak crew working on the tracks quite often. I get your point though. It’s low hanging fruit for presidential candidates to talk about the crumbling infrastructure, easy to get funding. Problem is too much pork is added in, and little gets accomplished.
Let me preface by saying I have no idea if what I'm about to type is true or not BUT:

You mentioned Amtrak. What does Amtrak haul? Mostly people. Is Amtrak heavily subsidized by the government? Do they use the same tracks as these hazardous loads are using? I'm speculating that people trains go where people want to go, nice country sides, big cities, sight seeing, etc. Probably (again, I'm speculating) not the same places you would see a train like the one that derailed in East Palestine :confused::tinfoilhat::shrug:

What are you asking here? Amtrak tracks get a higher level of maintenance than others, if that's the question. They also only ride on a small portion of the rail network, and a tiny amount is dedicated solely to Amtrak.
I’m not asking anything. It’s just a popular campaign platform to want to build up our infrastructure (As we should). Unfortunately we seem to fall woefully short as our roads and bridges decay.

Most of the arguments about this indicate that the true need to solve the issues in the current system is double tracking with turn outs every X so many miles or so. To do this would take something about the size of Vermont out of the hands of private citizens and would cost trillions just in the real estate transactions. The time horizon is so long that it is not clear that the ports that connect these rails up will literally exist anymore with sea level rise. I tend to agree that the rail networks are in the top 10 of required improvements, but the scope may be much larger than anyone can fathom requiring high speed passenger rail to more or less replace domestic air, and passenger car travel.
Also if the same people responsible for road repairs are also doing the train track repairs, it will take forever and only last a few years after its done before falling apart again.
 
I see an Amtrak crew working on the tracks quite often. I get your point though. It’s low hanging fruit for presidential candidates to talk about the crumbling infrastructure, easy to get funding. Problem is too much pork is added in, and little gets accomplished.
Let me preface by saying I have no idea if what I'm about to type is true or not BUT:

You mentioned Amtrak. What does Amtrak haul? Mostly people. Is Amtrak heavily subsidized by the government? Do they use the same tracks as these hazardous loads are using? I'm speculating that people trains go where people want to go, nice country sides, big cities, sight seeing, etc. Probably (again, I'm speculating) not the same places you would see a train like the one that derailed in East Palestine :confused::tinfoilhat::shrug:

What are you asking here? Amtrak tracks get a higher level of maintenance than others, if that's the question. They also only ride on a small portion of the rail network, and a tiny amount is dedicated solely to Amtrak.
I’m not asking anything. It’s just a popular campaign platform to want to build up our infrastructure (As we should). Unfortunately we seem to fall woefully short as our roads and bridges decay.

Most of the arguments about this indicate that the true need to solve the issues in the current system is double tracking with turn outs every X so many miles or so. To do this would take something about the size of Vermont out of the hands of private citizens and would cost trillions just in the real estate transactions. The time horizon is so long that it is not clear that the ports that connect these rails up will literally exist anymore with sea level rise. I tend to agree that the rail networks are in the top 10 of required improvements, but the scope may be much larger than anyone can fathom requiring high speed passenger rail to more or less replace domestic air, and passenger car travel.
Also if the same people responsible for road repairs are also doing the train track repairs, it will take forever and only last a few years after its done before falling apart again.
That’s the problem, not enough maintenance is done. It’s a constant task.
 
BREAKING: Norfolk Southern, $NSC, whose trains derailed in East Palestine, Ohio, spilling toxic vinyl chloride, has announced it is creating a $1 million fund for the victims.
It spent $4 billion on stock buybacks last year.
It has a quarterly income of $1.3 billion.
Always annoyed with the company for the sheer amount of good real-estate they mostly just sit on in Charlotte. Me thinks some bigger fines are going to be coming.
 
This payout of pennies on the dollar is just what you get when you don't nationalize industrial infrastructure. It took a lot but ultimately deep water horizon paid out in the billions. It'll get there.

Deep water though likely won't ever be really looked at for the surfactant they used which when mixed with petroleum products is carcinogenic. Indirect and long term damages like that are hard to get. Read the conspiracy stuff and gulf coast areas are a cancer cluster, but efforts to measure this are blocked to some extent.
 
BREAKING: Norfolk Southern, $NSC, whose trains derailed in East Palestine, Ohio, spilling toxic vinyl chloride, has announced it is creating a $1 million fund for the victims.
It spent $4 billion on stock buybacks last year.
It has a quarterly income of $1.3 billion.
In other news, Norfolk Southern is creating a 1 cent fund for victims to purchase items off the dollar menu.
 
The company responsible reportedly offered the entire town $25k in compensation. Which comes out to $5 a person.

If capitalism works like it’s supposed to, they’d have to buy out every single home in the affected area as they all are worth almost nothing because nobody will want to live there. I certainly wouldn’t want to live in an area where the soil and groundwater could be contaminated with those types of carcinogens.

BREAKING: Norfolk Southern, $NSC, whose trains derailed in East Palestine, Ohio, spilling toxic vinyl chloride, has announced it is creating a $1 million fund for the victims.
It spent $4 billion on stock buybacks last year.
It has a quarterly income of $1.3 billion.
A few more exponentially increasing offers and NS might get close to a decent amount.
 
BREAKING: Norfolk Southern, $NSC, whose trains derailed in East Palestine, Ohio, spilling toxic vinyl chloride, has announced it is creating a $1 million fund for the victims.
It spent $4 billion on stock buybacks last year.
It has a quarterly income of $1.3 billion.
To put it in smaller math, for every $1 Norfolk Southern set aside for victims of the train derailment, they spent $4000 on stock buybacks just last year. In an industry in which track and equipment maintenance is an ongoing necessity.
 
“Corporations do stock buybacks, they do big dividend checks, they lay off workers,” Brown said. “Thousands of workers have been laid off from Norfolk Southern. Then they don’t invest in safety rules and safety regulation, and this kind of thing happens. That’s why people in East Palestine are so upset. They know that corporate lobbyists have had far too much influence in our government and they see this as the result … These things are happening because these railroads are simply not investing the way they should in car safety and in the rail lines themselves.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...io-train-derailment-reaction-norfolk-southern
 
What is going on here?
--------------------------------
Second train derails in Ohio – weeks after East Palestine disaster sparked health concerns
Another train has derailed in Ohio, this time in Delphos, a small city approximately 88 miles southwest of Toledo near the state's western border.
Law enforcement in Delphos was notified around 12:45am on Sunday that a train running through the centre of the city derailed near a grain elevator, according to Your Hometown Stations.

The train toppled a pair of electric poles and shut down several intersections after it jumped the track. There were no reports of injuries and it does not appear the train was carrying any hazardous substances...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Massive explosion at metals factory kills one and injures at least 12
One person was killed and at least a dozen injured in a massive explosion at an Ohio metals manufacturer that sent molten debris flying through the sky.

First responders called the blast at the I Schumann & Co plant in Bedford, Ohio a ‘mass casualty event’ as multiple fire departments and ambulance companies were called to the scene around 3pm on Monday afternoon.

At least 12 people were injured and hospitalized in the explosion, and one person has since died
from their injuries.

Smoke and flames could be seen for miles around the factory, which is situated about 15 miles outside of Cleveland...
 
So now the EPA is going to take over being in charge of the cleanup, after 3 weeks have gone by? This after help was offered to the governor of Ohio, and he refused it.

EPA takes charge of cleanup in toxic Ohio train derailment
That's kinda big news and especially that the EPA is telling Norfolk-Southern they are responsible for the cleanup and the bill. If they fail to do so, the EPA will take over and charge Norfolk-Southern triple the cost.

That happens very rarely in my experience. The folks who kept pounding this story on the socials are to thank for this. Had it not been for the attention, the EPA wouldn't have gotten involved. Certainly not at this level.
 
There was another explosion in a factory in Ohio, not the Bedford metals plant.
What's up Ohio??
That is the same exposion as the "Bedford" one. I've seen it described as being in 3 different named localities, but always as an explosion at the "I Schumann & Co plant".
 
So now the EPA is going to take over being in charge of the cleanup, after 3 weeks have gone by? This after help was offered to the governor of Ohio, and he refused it.

EPA takes charge of cleanup in toxic Ohio train derailment
The EPA has been in East Palestine for awhile now helping out. What your link describes is the EPA telling the railroad that it (the railroad) is totally responsible for all cleanup and costs, and that if the railroad doesn't clean it all up and pay for it all the EPA will do it and charge the railroad triple the cost.

https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/ep...all-cleanup-actions-associated-east-palestine
Today, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) ordered Norfolk Southern to conduct all necessary actions associated with the cleanup from the East Palestine, Ohio, train derailment. As part of EPA’s legally binding order, Norfolk Southern will be required to:
  • Identify and clean up contaminated soil and water resources.
  • Reimburse EPA for cleaning services to be offered to residents and businesses to provide an additional layer of reassurance, which will be conducted by EPA staff and contractors.
  • Attend and participate in public meetings at EPA’s request and post information online.
  • Pay for EPA’s costs for work performed under this order.
As part of the order, EPA will approve a workplan outlining all steps necessary to clean up the environmental damage caused by the derailment. If the company fails to complete any actions as ordered by EPA, the Agency will immediately step in, conduct the necessary work, and then seek to compel Norfolk Southern to pay triple the cost.
 
The EPA says it began testing air quality in the East Palestine area within 24 hours of the derailment, including the use of a mobile analytical laboratory. The agency said Tuesday that it has assisted with indoor air monitoring of more than 550 homes under a voluntary screening program offered to residents, and that “no detections of vinyl chloride or hydrogen chloride were identified above levels of concern.”
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/21/epa...-train-derailment-site-and-pay-all-costs.html
 
Have we talked about the political rollbacks that may have been a contributing factor to this?

I think it's best to think of the political items of what was not done, rather than what was rolled back. When doing projects of this size very rarely is there consideration to the ongoing maintenance. The options put forward are usually either to nationalize whatever industry needs the help, or to do nothing and hope for the best.

The rail industry in this country should be leasing the use of the tracks from the state/feds, this ensures the maintenance is paid for (ideally without corruption). What we get instead is corporations self regulating, and any move to support them is either pork laden or insufficient.
 
Its so sad that every single tragedy is politicized before just working together to help people , i dont remember this being a thing when i was growing up during the 70`s and 80`s and beyond . Just make sure those innocent people in that town are ok and make them feel like they matter , just because THEY DO .
 
Its so sad that every single tragedy is politicized before just working together to help people , i dont remember this being a thing when i was growing up during the 70`s and 80`s and beyond . Just make sure those innocent people in that town are ok and make them feel like they matter , just because THEY DO .
I think you're describing the difference between media coverage of this event, and what's actually happening in East Palestine. Ohio's set up a sort of hospital there, the feds had 4 different agencies working there and today I read that's up to 7 agencies. Dirt and water and being removed, there's a plan set up to clean the inside of people's houses, there's a plan set up to monitor ground water and surface water for years. A lot's being done. Air testing is ongoing.

No houses blew up or blew away. No one was washed away. There aren't scores of injured or wounded to tend to. No one knows, or can know at this point, how big a disaster this is and will remain.

Media coverage is focused primarily on how big a disaster people worry it is, and on photo-op visits, and for awhile on Youtube videos. I've found TV coverage of it useless, and in news articles I have to read the whole article to see what's actually being done. And adding it up bit by bit a good amount of work is actually being done.

What I'm hoping for is that
- that this turns out to be a small manageable health issue over the years in East Palestine
- that nobody knows it will turn out that way, and keeps constant scrutiny on a potential disaster so that actual changes happen forcing safer handling of toxic materials
- that the people responsible (the railroads) pay
 
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The EPA says it began testing air quality in the East Palestine area within 24 hours of the derailment, including the use of a mobile analytical laboratory. The agency said Tuesday that it has assisted with indoor air monitoring of more than 550 homes under a voluntary screening program offered to residents, and that “no detections of vinyl chloride or hydrogen chloride were identified above levels of concern.” The EPA is testing to make sure home air concentration of the chemicals does not exceed 0.5 parts per million for vinyl chloride and 1.4 ppm for hydrogen chloride.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...hio-train-derailment-site-pay-costs-rcna71598
 
Today, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) ordered Norfolk Southern to conduct all necessary actions associated with the cleanup from the East Palestie, Ohio, train derailment. As part of EPA’s legally binding order, Norfolk Southern will be required to:

  • Identify and clean up contaminated soil and water resources.
  • Reimburse EPA for cleaning services to be offered to residents and businesses to provide an additional layer of reassurance, which will be conducted by EPA staff and contractors.
  • Attend and participate in public meetings at EPA’s request and post information online.
  • Pay for EPA’s costs for work performed under this order.

As part of the order, EPA will approve a workplan outlining all steps necessary to clean up the environmental damage caused by the derailment. If the company fails to complete any actions as ordered by EPA, the Agency will immediately step in, conduct the necessary work, and then seek to compel Norfolk Southern to pay triple the cost.
https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/ep...all-cleanup-actions-associated-east-palestine
 
Norfolk Southern, the railway company in charge of the 151-car train that derailed in Ohio, said on Monday that thousands of pounds of soil and water have been removed from the site of the crash due to "substantial contamination."

The update comes more than two weeks after the train derailed in East Palestine, causing significant concern about the hazardous materials that were on board. The 38 derailed train cars were carrying substances including vinyl chloride, butyl acrylate, ethylene glycol monobutyl ether, ethylhexyl acrylate and isobutylene – all materials that are widely considered to be toxic and that could have damaging effects to both humans and the environment.

On Monday, Norfolk Southern said that 15,000 pounds of soil and 1.1 million gallons of water have been removed from the area because of contamination. In their press release, the company did not specify which of the hazardous materials were found in the water and soil.

"The material will be transported to landfills and disposal facilities that are designed to accept it safely in accordance with state and federal regulations," the company said. https://www.wltx.com/article/news/n...says/101-c2eab515-ae68-4780-bcbe-920d33017455
 
Update on the money to pay for all this cleanup and health care and monitoring. From yesterday.

Norfolk Southern CEO Alan Shaw pledged Tuesday the freight railroad will spend $6.5 million to help those affected by the release of toxic chemicals from its derailment nearly three weeks ago in East Palestine, Ohio. But in a plan released earlier this year, the company said it’s planning to spend more than a thousand times that amount — $7.5 billion — to repurchase its own shares in order to benefit its shareholders.
 
The Pennsylvania attorney general’s office will investigate the toxic derailment of a Norfolk Southern freight train after receiving a criminal referral from state environmental officials. “Our office has been monitoring the train derailment in East Palestine and we are outraged on behalf of the residents who have suffered the consequences of this catastrophe,” the office of acting Attorney General Michelle Henry wrote in a statement Tuesday.

The February 3 derailment in East Palestine, Ohio – near the border with Pennsylvania – led to evacuations in both states.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/21/us/ohio-train-derailment-east-palestine-tuesday/index.html
 
This is a very good informative article on the trainwreck and chemical spill. Luckily my local paper printed it.
https://www.twincities.com/2023/02/...body-bags-to-learn-from-ohios-train-disaster/

The explosion danger stems from the nature of several of the substances on the train, which derailed Feb. 3 — in particular, vinyl chloride, a building block of plastics. It can only be transported as what’s called a pressurized liquid. If exposed to enough heat from a fire, the vinyl chloride can boil and build enough pressure to blow apart even the most powerfully reinforced container. That’s what authorities feared would happen in East Palestine. The technical term for such a mega blast is a BLEVE, Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion, said chemist and toxicologist Hans Plugge, who heads the consulting firm Safer Chemical Analytics. You can try to quantify the power of a BLEVE in terms of 100s of tons of explosive, he said, but it comes across better if you watch a video of a disaster such as the 1983 BLEVE in Murdock, Illinois, which looked like an atomic blast and flung the remains of a tank close to a mile away.

Stick around until about 01:30 of that video.
 
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The spacing of hot-box detectors and the temperatures at which they trigger alarms are not currently regulated by federal law, officials say.
The train was 9000-feet long. 1.7 miles.

I haven't really thought if it, but if it makes sense, I'm in favor of limiting the max number of cars any train can have that is carrying chemicals that can evacuate a town.

I am sure that wouldbe more expensive for the rail companies, and that's just too ****ing bad.
 

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