Thunderlips
Footballguy
At that point, CLE is arguing whether Garret and JG is better than Trubisky/Kizer and whomever is there at 12.
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Patriots looking for a 1st and 4th for Garoppolo (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter JohnnyU
- Start date
Just glancing over some draft rankings and not knowing what positions Cleveland would even target... Would fans rather come out of the draft with Trubisky and Derek Barnett or Lattimore type or Garret and JG?
Bossman
Footballguy
Seems a lot of folks consider Garopollo unproven.
The last game that he started (week 2 vs MIA) his stats were 18/26, 232 YDS, 3 TD, 0 INT
... IN THE FIRST HALF.
He was on pace for 400+ yds and 6 TDS before he was injured.
If you want to discount his numbers because of the competition, MIA won 10 games and made the playoffs. Not like he was beating up on the Jaguars.
Any more PROVEN and it would cost two 1st round picks to land him.
The last game that he started (week 2 vs MIA) his stats were 18/26, 232 YDS, 3 TD, 0 INT
... IN THE FIRST HALF.
He was on pace for 400+ yds and 6 TDS before he was injured.
If you want to discount his numbers because of the competition, MIA won 10 games and made the playoffs. Not like he was beating up on the Jaguars.
Any more PROVEN and it would cost two 1st round picks to land him.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Meh. It was one half of one game. Matt Flynn had 480 yards and 6 TD in a full game. I guess that made Flynn twice as proven.
Bossman
Footballguy
On March 18, 2012, Flynn signed a three-year deal with the Seattle Seahawks worth $20.5 million.
He was also a FA. Seattle did trade him to the Raiders though once Wilson won the job... for a 5th and future conditional pick.
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ghostguy123
Footballguy
Listening to some cleveland sports talk radio today, and a couple of them were actually intrigued by the idea of drafting a QB at #1 AND trading pick 12 for JG.
I almost pooped myself in disgust. Worst idea in the history of bad ideas.
I almost pooped myself in disgust. Worst idea in the history of bad ideas.
FUBAR
Footballguy
Is this all that close? Trubisky and jimmy are probably about equal. Garrett might be the best defensive prospect since suh, or Clowney.
Run It Up
Footballguy
FUBAR
Footballguy
Run It Up
Footballguy
Just saying, all kinds of opinions flying around, just thought it was interesting that he was being considered comparable to a yet to be drafted player who hasn't looked as good as Jimmy ever.
Valuation of QBs is blowing my mind in this thread.
FUBAR
Footballguy
Run It Up
Footballguy
Mitch Trubiskyok then.
Pass
Year School Conf Class Pos G Cmp Att Pct Yds Y/A AY/A TD Int Rate
*2014 North Carolina ACC SO QB 9 42 78 53.8 459 5.9 4.9 5 4 114.2
*2015 North Carolina ACC SO QB 9 40 47 85.1 555 11.8 14.4 6 0 226.4
2016 North Carolina ACC JR QB 13 304 447 68.0 3748 8.4 9.1 30 6 157.9
Career North Carolina 386 572 67.5 4762 8.3 9.0 41 10 157.6
Code:
Jimmy Garoppolo
Year Team Passing
Cmp Att Pct Yds Y/A TD Int Rtg
2010 Eastern Illinois 124 211 58.8 1,639 7.8 14 13 133.6
2011 Eastern Illinois 217 349 62.2 2,644 7.6 20 14 136.7
2012 Eastern Illinois 331 540 61.3 3,823 7.1 31 15 134.2
2013 Eastern Illinois 375 568 66.0 5,050 8.9 53 9 168.3
Career 1,047 1,668 62.8 13,156 7.9 118 51 146.3I guess its debatable, I just don't know how you lean the other way.
FUBAR
Footballguy
I didn't lean.
I don't bet on this stuff, but I'm pretty sure trubisky goes higher than the pick traded for jimmy G. (Although he'll probably just stay put)
Of course, there is the ACC vs Ohio Valley argument if you want to use college stats you have to consider the competition.
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Run It Up
Footballguy
Not worth a first to you and many others. However, you're not CLE, CHI and a handful of other QB-desperate teams.
I'm calling it...Brady get concussed after throwing his 4th TD pass...celebrating in end zone (too exuberant of a head tap with a lineman)...Jimmy G comes in and torches ATL for 5 TDs, 467 yards, 0 INTs and 84 rushing yards. NE gets #1 overall pick and a 2nd for JG. Locked and loaded for next 12 years.
Booo effing yahhhhh!
Booo effing yahhhhh!
Boston
Footballguy
Vegas odds on where Jimmy G ends up:
http://www.sportsline.com/insiders/25773626/chicago-bears-favored-to-land-qb-jimmy-garoppolo/
http://www.sportsline.com/insiders/25773626/chicago-bears-favored-to-land-qb-jimmy-garoppolo/
DropKick
Footballguy
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Apparently there was talk among reporters in the press room at halftime after the Brady pick-6 that NE should trade Brady for whatever they could get for him and move on to JG. It sounded like a group of people were convinced Brady was old, slow, and had lost it . . .as evidenced by his and his team's performance in the first half. I'm interested as to who was driving that bus and who got on it, but no names have been dropped so far.
DropKick
Footballguy
Seems silly now but get blown out and you can understand that talk. He is 39.. Weren't people saying Brady had slipped some after a slow start a couple years back?
Guy takes great care of himself - I see another two years at an elite level and then all bets off.
Flip side is people have had Frank Gore dead and buried for years now.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Some surprising numbers in there. Browns +1500 and 49ers +1250 seem rather high
Then again Vegas knows all (even though they were way off on the election)
FUBAR
Footballguy
They kind of lost me with their Patriots writeup
This implies jimmy has some influence. I guess if the new team required a new contract he could make it difficult, but the new team could just franchise him after 2017.
Boston
Footballguy
Agree with that...he has no choice if they trade him...he is not a free agent...it is too bad the timing does not work because I think the kid is going to be a good NFL QB...right now the smart move is to deal him...looks like there's going to be a good market for him...hopefully the rookie QBs are unimpressive at the combine and his value goes up even more...
Anarchy99
Footballguy
It sounds like there is talk of giving Brady a three year contract extension (he's already signed for the next two years), and that would just about shut the door on Jimmy G coming back. NE trading him does not reflect on JG's talent level. But it would be impossible for him to be Brady's heir apparent and just sit around for a total of 6-8 years from the time JG entered the league.
Was watching Breer last night and one thing he mentioned was that several teams put a first round grade on Jimmy G. during the draft.
He also indicated Jimmy G. would see a "robust" market.
MMQB's Albert Breer mentions the Saints as a team that could possibly trade for Jimmy Garoppolo.
By no means is Breer reporting the Saints are interested, but he makes a really good point that New Orleans could acquire Garoppolo and have him as Drew Brees' backup for the final year of Garoppolo's rookie contract and then either sign him to a long-term deal or franchise-tag him in 2018 with Brees entering a contract year in 2017. The Saints have been sniffing the quarterback market a bit under the radar in the past couple years with Brees advancing in age.
He also indicated Jimmy G. would see a "robust" market.
MMQB's Albert Breer mentions the Saints as a team that could possibly trade for Jimmy Garoppolo.
By no means is Breer reporting the Saints are interested, but he makes a really good point that New Orleans could acquire Garoppolo and have him as Drew Brees' backup for the final year of Garoppolo's rookie contract and then either sign him to a long-term deal or franchise-tag him in 2018 with Brees entering a contract year in 2017. The Saints have been sniffing the quarterback market a bit under the radar in the past couple years with Brees advancing in age.
Niles Standish
Footballguy
Pretend Brady plays 3 more years at his same career level (that puts him at 42) and then retires. I think that's relatively optimistic. Pretend that he keeps with his average and wins 1 championship every 3 years. That's 1 more championship for Brady (and I think that's giving him the benefit of the doubt even with a very strong team around him). Sure the Pats are the favorites but championships require luck.
Now it depends on what you think of Jimmy G. If you think he's good enough to keep you relevant for 15 more years and maybe win a ring. Well then long-term going Jimmy G might be better. Now if you think Brissett is as good as Jimmy then you go a few more with Brady and trade off Jimmy. Really depends on what they think they have in Jimmy and Jacoby. They might think Jimmy's a top 10 QB. If they do then it's hard to get rid of him for 3 more years of Brady.
Moving on from Montana and Favre look like the right moves historically. Moving on from Manning doesn't so far but who knows what we'll think 10 years from now.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
If Brady plays well or well enough for 3 more years, that would mean Jimmy G was a back up for 6 total years. In 2020, he'd be in his age 29 season. Half his potential as a viable starter would have been thrown out the window by then. His contract would almost certainly be an issue be then as well.
JG is currently signed for another year. Then what? He's going to want legit starter money. NE could franchise him, but the Pats would not throw $35 million at the QB position between TB and JG. Jimmy G wouldn't accept back up money any longer, and the Pats couldn't afford to give him a starter's contract. Bottom line, TB and JG can't co-exist past 2017 . . . and Garoppolo could just walk after 2017 for minimal return (a comp pick in 2018). If we know anything about BB, it's that he is not going to overpay and he is not going to waste assets. JG's value right now is as high as it's ever going to get.
The Pats will have to choose one guy or the other.
JG is currently signed for another year. Then what? He's going to want legit starter money. NE could franchise him, but the Pats would not throw $35 million at the QB position between TB and JG. Jimmy G wouldn't accept back up money any longer, and the Pats couldn't afford to give him a starter's contract. Bottom line, TB and JG can't co-exist past 2017 . . . and Garoppolo could just walk after 2017 for minimal return (a comp pick in 2018). If we know anything about BB, it's that he is not going to overpay and he is not going to waste assets. JG's value right now is as high as it's ever going to get.
The Pats will have to choose one guy or the other.
Boston
Footballguy
Sums it up nicely...there is absolutely no way the Pats are moving on from Brady...I don't care how old he is he is coming off a great year where he just passed for 466 yards in a Super Bowl MVP performance...he is also the undisputed leader of this team and sets a standard that forces others to raise their game...when he starts showing his age we can start to worry about him...I really like Jimmy G but it's going to be a lot easier to find another Jimmy G than it is another Tom Brady...
Hankmoody
Footballguy
BB is also an absolute mercenary. He doesn't give one crap about 3 years from now, and if keeping JG as an extremely competent backup for yet another run at the Superbowl is the consolation prize, he's not going to hesitate to do it. They don't at all have to choose one or the other, keeping both is well within reason. If I were them I'd be working now to re-work JG's contract. Give him 3 years for $25M and a voidable 3rd year. He'd get $20M if tagged in 2018, this lets the Pats keep him at least two years and spread that money out a little bit. If he's still a backup in 2019 so be it and if he's starting he can void/rework 2019 salary to get paid like a starter.
I agree they'll trade him if they get blown away with an offer, but they aren't going to push him out the door for the best reasonable offer.
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Ned Ryerson
Footballguy
I know the Colts haven't won anything with Luck, but I don't think the issue there lies with Luck. Despite the Broncos making two SBs, I don't think the Colts regret their decision to move on at all.
Boston
Footballguy
The Colts got very lucky...it was not that difficult of a decision...Manning had serious health issues and the Colts had the #1 pick in a draft that had a consensus #1 pick that just happened to be a QB...perfect timing for them...
Anarchy99
Footballguy
There is NO WAY Jimmy G would sign a 3 year extension for $25 million when this time next year he would be looking at more than that total contract as a signing bonus or total guaranteed money.
Hankmoody
Footballguy
You're being overly literal, but I suppose that's my fault for not saying "for example". Did you stop reading 1/2 way through? I did specifically say the 3rd year could be voidable.
He "might" be looking at more than that next year. He also might be looking at a franchise tag. For guess how much? About $22M. So he could have earned $900k in 2017 with $22M in 2018, or he can sign "for example" a 3 year contract for $25M up front with a voidable 3rd year. That would be $25M for 2 years and buy him the chance to stick around and see if Brady's ready to go yet while still getting a huge chunk of money.
How much more do you expect he'd get? Osweiler got $37M and promptly showed the world why it's a bad idea to give that money to a guy that hasn't shown much.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
For starters, you moved the goal posts. In your first post, you said a 3-year deal worth a total of $25 million with a voidable third year. Then you responded by saying the Pats would give JG $25 million UPFRONT and STILL he had the option to void his 3rd year. So the Pats would give JG a check for $25 million on Day One and pay him NOT to play? That's cray-cray.
No matter how people want to configure it, past 2017, the Pats are not going to pay starter's money to TWO quarterbacks at the same time. Put another way, when was the last time BB (or any other team for that matter) had their highest paid player NOT EVEN PLAYING (ruling out situations of injury or poor performance)????
Look at all the crazy money getting throw around at QB's . . . and mediocre ones at that. Come on, JG isn't stupid. He knows he just has to get away from NE to cash in.
Hankmoody
Footballguy
Not intentionally moving anything, but my bad, I wasn't very clear, because in my mind as I composed the post most of the $25M would be in a signing bonus - thus the need for 3 years to spread out the cap hit. "For example" 3 years, $22M signing bonus, $1M salary in each year, voidable 3rd year. That makes it 2 years at $24M for JG, but for the Pats it's an $8M cap number for each of three years. It's a big chunk to pay a backup, but if they are truly convinced he's Brady's heir apparent it's not impossible to fathom, especially when Brady keeps giving the team discounts on his own contract. And if Brady ends up playing just one more year the timing ends up perfect. You gotta be ready for anything, and this buys them a couple of years to prepare.
I agree he would score more money by getting away from NE altogether, but he isn't fully in control of that right now, and this might make him think "hey, it's good enough for now, let's see what happens".
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Niles Standish
Footballguy
At the time it seemed like the very obvious move to move on from Peyton and I'm just looking with hindsight. For the sake of argument I'll say I agree with you. It makes the point that moving on from an iconic QB even one who has a few years left in the tank isn't always a bad move.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
NE is just starting the contract extension process with Brady . . . they are going to have to give him signing bonus and/or guaranteed money. Then they would do the same thing with JG? They are probably going to have to give Brady $25 million guaranteed and in your scenario ANOTHER $25 million guaranteed? So they would shell out $50 million at the same time? I stand by my original position. NOT. GONNA. HAPPEN.
If the Pats choose to keep Jimmy G, it will be for the 2017 season. They may do what they did with Matt Cassell after that (tag him and trade him), but IMO that is the longest they would keep him. Short of a debilitating Brady injury or Brady's retirement by this time next year, I just don't see a viable way for NE to keep both guys.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
http://nflspinzone.com/2017/02/07/cleveland-browns-why-patriots-eager-jimmy-garoppolo-trade/
One cannot help but wonder why the Patriots are so motivated to unload their promising backup quarterback...
... One myth that needs to be debunked when it comes to Garoppolo is the idea that the Patriots must move him this offseason. They don’t.
... the biggest need for the Patriots is the quarterback after Brady.
... why would they be in such a hurry to trade Garoppolo a year before the situation demands it?
the Patriots believe Garoppolo isn’t a long-term answer
... For all of the positions the Patriots have been able to replace, the list of good quarterbacks the Bill Belichick has produced is as follows: Tom Brady. That’s it.
... it doesn’t make sense for them to deal away the team’s biggest need unless they don’t believe he’s the answer to that need
One cannot help but wonder why the Patriots are so motivated to unload their promising backup quarterback...
... One myth that needs to be debunked when it comes to Garoppolo is the idea that the Patriots must move him this offseason. They don’t.
... the biggest need for the Patriots is the quarterback after Brady.
... why would they be in such a hurry to trade Garoppolo a year before the situation demands it?
the Patriots believe Garoppolo isn’t a long-term answer
... For all of the positions the Patriots have been able to replace, the list of good quarterbacks the Bill Belichick has produced is as follows: Tom Brady. That’s it.
... it doesn’t make sense for them to deal away the team’s biggest need unless they don’t believe he’s the answer to that need
Captain Quinoa
Footballguy
FUBAR
Footballguy
1 Brisket looks like he could have potential.
2 that's just stupid. When your QB is the GOAT and has been with you almost since day 1, you can't show a lack of producing other QBs. Plus, Cassel looked pretty good in NE. He fell apart when he left. There is zero evidence to indicate BB's inability to produce another top QB. In fact, Cassel's performance in NE and lack thereof away, shows that BB probably can coach up a replacement.
ETA: FWIW, while BB was horrible in Cleveland, he was at least partly responsible for Vinny Testaverde having a career after he looked abysmal his first six years (in Tampa). If the writer wants to talk about how QBs don't succeed after leaving BB - Vinny became a pro bowler after he was coached by BB.
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
Further in that article it again points fingers at the Patriots not selected a QB that has done much in the NFL. To which I say, they were not drafting guys to start for them, they drafted projects that they hoped might turn into something or could be an emergency fill in if needed. Yet people want to say NE can't draft QB's.
Since Brady was drafted in 2000, the earliest the Patriots picked a QB was Garappolo in the 2nd round. Compare that to the following (which does not include all the high draft picks that were used to acquire a QB) . . .
- WAS used 3 first round picks on QB's (and traded three 1st's and a 2nd in the process).
- NYJ used two 1st's on three 2nd's on QB's
- DEN used three 1st's and a 2nd on QB's
- JAX used three Top 10 overall picks on QB's
- TEN used three Top 10 overall picks on QB's
- CHI used a first on a QB and traded two 1st's and players for Cutler
- CLE used three 1st's on QB's
- LAR used the top pick twice on QB's and traded two 1st's and two 2nd's in the process
- MIN used two 1st's and a 2nd on QB's and traded a 1st to land Bradford
- PHI used a 1st and a 2nd on QB's and traded two 1st's and two 2nd's to draft Wentz
- MIA used a 1st and three 2nd's on QB's
- DET used two 1st's and a 2nd on QB's
- OAK used the top overall pick and two 2nd's on QB's
- Four teams used two 1st's on QB's
- Five teams used a 1st and a 2nd on QB's
Yet it's BB and NE that can't draft QB's.
FUBAR
Footballguy
fins were inconsistent for sure. They beat the Steelers rather soundly. But yeah, they were the worst team to make the playoffs (except a Carr-less Raiders)
Hankmoody
Footballguy
Well if they are going to commit guaranteed money to him beyond age 40 that obviously changes things, but I would be shocked if that came to fruition. Brady is under contract for 3 more years already. If he can play until 45 great, but guaranteeing money more than 3 years out is insane at this point. You pay as you go if you're going to ride that out. When QB's at that age go, they go fast. No doubt Brady's not done yet, but we said that about Manning going into 2014. By the end of that season he showed signs, and he was toast immediately in 2015.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
As you said, Brady is signed for three more years and is guaranteed $27 million already. NE will look to extend him two more years and give him some additional walking around money now to spread out the cap hit. Compared to other QB's in the league, Brady is severally underpaid.
As far as comparing Manning and Brady, Brady hasn't had multiple neck surgeries and unlike Manning still has feeling in his finger tips. Not exactly an apples to apples comparison. Brady can't play forever, but he's already played at a higher level than almost all of his predecessors already. Two years from now he may not be able to throw 62 passes and lead the Pats to 31 unanswered points in the SB. BUt he could still be good enough and make some big plays as needed.
That's part of the reason why it is thought that NE will be making an effort to upgrade their RB corps this off season (even if it doesn't look like that is a huge priority right now).
Boston
Footballguy
I understand their can be a case to keep Jimmy G because he does look like a good fit for the Pats and 12 is not getting any younger...I can not understand some of the reasoning being thrown around though...way to much NCIS going on...it is not difficult...the Pats are convinced TB has at least three more years of high-level/Super Bowl winning play in him...Jimmy G's deal is up this year and there is no way in hell they are signing him to good money with Brady around and I don't see Garroplo wanting that either (he needs to be starting as soon as possible (to maximize his value)...one thing that BB does pretty regularly is he acts a year early rather than a year late (Chandler Jones is a recent example)...so instead of losing Jimmy G for nothing he has used a third round pick on a QB that looks like a good prospect and capable of replacing Garropola and will now move Jimmy G for some assets that have a chance to be valuable and cheap...a deal like this can be similar to the Chandler deal which eventually ended up netting a potential stud Guard in Thuney (who started as a rookie) and a quality WR in Malcom Mitchell...right now it appears they may get even more than they got for Jones...this is just how BB conducts his business and why they are currently 60+ million under the salary cap while coming off a Super Bowl title...
