Interseptopus
Footballguy
McDaniel's will be a great HC if he goes to a team where he is given the talent to succeed. I honestly think Jacksonville or Buffalo would be a great destination. Probably more so Jacksonville
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Patriots looking for a 1st and 4th for Garoppolo (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter JohnnyU
- Start date
JohnnyU
Footballguy
You don't if the QB quality in the draft doesn't dictate it. Forcing it is never good for your franchise.
Warhogs
Footballguy
I have heard the argument that teams should draft a QB every year but it doesn't have to be in round 1. Heck, if I were a Browns fan I wouldn't mind seeing RGIII given one more year due to injury and draft someone at some point but I wouldn't feel like I had to burn a top pick on a QB.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
That was crippling to IND
Right, but waiting until the later rounds just increases the chances of another Kessler. Not saying it's 100% true, but for the most part. I think Cleveland has to at this point, being without any kind of stability at QB since I can remember.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
The other issue is financial. You pay him good money to backup Brady just so in a few years he can take over?
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
I can absolutely judge McDaniels on his behavior in Denver, which was substandard for a high school coach, much less an NFL coach. He was literally clueless, immature, petty, and arrogant. As a GB fan myself, I seriously cannot fathom why anyone would want McDaniels over McCarthy. Perhaps you could flesh your opinion out for me a bit.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Cleveland shouldn't reach for a QB in the 1st rd unless that QB is 1st rd worthy and if it's a stud from the draft they are looking for, then they will just have to wait until there is one in the draft. They could be building other parts of their team with high draft picks and if they continue to be bad, perhaps they will be able to draft a stud QB in the draft when there IS ONE in the draft. Or they could trade for a proven QB and build other parts of their team via the draft.
massraider
Footballguy
My point is, a Colts fan saying a team should just wait until there's an all-time prospect available is hilarious. Comes off a little Marie Antoinette, ya know? Colts have been extremely lucky to suck out loud when all-time QB prospects were available.
We might be talking past each other a bit, as I am not sure we are arguing the same points. I am not advocating taking a QB with a top pick no matter what. And I am not in favor of massive trade-ups.
I am advocating going and getting a QB until you have one. The Raiders didn't have one. They traded for Matt Flynn, drafted Tyler Wilson, got Matt Shaub, then drafted Derek Carr. Those earlier moves were mistakes. But with a different philosophy, the Raiders might still be wating around for a QB.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
No. no team can survive paying 2 franchise QBs. If Garoppolo is a franchise QB you keep him and put him in place of Brady in 2018 and damn the consequences.
massraider
Footballguy
Not for nothing, but Brady is so affordable, the Pats could give Jimmy 10 mill a year two years from now, and it would still be less than Brees made this year.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Drafting a Derek Carr was great for the Raiders, but if you're the Browns and you keep flopping on QBs, perhaps a different strategy is in order, or hire the right GM. I believe in trading for a veteran is a good thing until you can draft the "right guy" and in the meantime use those high picks to build the rest of your team.
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massraider
Footballguy
Brady's contract is such that he will clearly be the starter through 2018. 2019 is possible. 22 mill cap number, 7 mill in dead cap, and 15 mill in savings if he's cut.
Jimmy's contract runs out after 2017.
The Pats might like Jimmy, but the fact is even THEY don't really know what he's capable of as a starter. I don't think they want to pay him a big contract either.
Jimmy's contract runs out after 2017.
The Pats might like Jimmy, but the fact is even THEY don't really know what he's capable of as a starter. I don't think they want to pay him a big contract either.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
FUBAR
Footballguy
I think I'm the only person here who thinks Kessler could be good with protection.
It's a chicken and egg argument imo - you need good coaching and a competent qb. I place more blame on the coaching than the individual qb, especially when certain franchises seem to never get it right while others win with matt cassel.
massraider
Footballguy
If I was running the Browns, I would take Garrett from A+M, and re-evaluate after that. If they need to trade up from the Eagles pick to grab someone, great. If they can trade down a bit, and take a guy they like, great.
But this team has enough draft capital that they can take the best player, then go and get a QB anywhere else in the draft.
I liked them going and getting RGIII, because why not? I was disappointed in them taking Kessler. Take a mid round flyer on a QB with tools, at least.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Um, hes probably gotten more practice reps since drafted than anyone on the team. Hes regularly touted as a champion on the practice field. Belichick talked about him at great lengths with the scout team in 2014, said he mimicked opposing QBs better than anyone hes seen.
Hes seasoned enough.
rockaction
Footballguy
Say the Patriots, who are looking for a first for him.
I'm telling you...Ricky Ledee.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Brady takes 3 of the 4 practice days off every week every year. Who do you think is throwing balls around?
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massraider
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
All I'm saying is your sourcing about his talent is self-interested and suspect.
It's not even like Ledee. Scouts got to watch him.
rockaction
Footballguy
massraider
Footballguy
This discussion is actually a lot more rational if you take the 1st and 4th talk out of it. Just because Shefter guesses on the comp doesn't mean we have to take that as gospel. What if it was a conditonal 3rd, with it becoming a 2nd if he starts 10 games, something like that?
Forgetting about the compensation, I am not against a team trading for JG. Let's assume there's not a 1st rounder involved, which I don't believe is legit.
If you liked him coming out of college, and can get him next season for a 3rd? Sure. You can have him for a year, and maybe offer him an interesting structure of a deal, or even franchise him. You get two years to really evaluate, at least, and if he doesn't work out, then you aren't on the hook for a 1st.
Forgetting about the compensation, I am not against a team trading for JG. Let's assume there's not a 1st rounder involved, which I don't believe is legit.
If you liked him coming out of college, and can get him next season for a 3rd? Sure. You can have him for a year, and maybe offer him an interesting structure of a deal, or even franchise him. You get two years to really evaluate, at least, and if he doesn't work out, then you aren't on the hook for a 1st.
tombonneau
Footballguy
He never had a pro QB he had worked with and was familiar with. So not really same thing.
Unless you are arguing that a first-time HC who gets fired can never go on to be successful elsewhere.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Yep. It's true that he wouldn't be the first guy to not do well in his first head coaching job and then do well in his second, if it were to happen, but he #### the bed in his first stint, ending with him getting canned for cheating. He was a failure on all levels in Denver, especially when you consider the history of the franchise.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
That still doesn't excuse his behavior, and that it looked at times like he wondered why a football isn't round
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
They wanted the same thing for Rohan Davey.
tombonneau
Footballguy
He was also I think only 30 at the time and clearly wasn't ready to run the show. I know my Bronco buddy loved him then hated him. Either way what we think doesn't matter. He's likely the top candidate on just about every team's list and will be a HC again in 2017. So we'll get to see very soon whether or not he has learned from his mistakes and will succeed his second time around.
Boston
Footballguy
Sorry, not buying this...Brady is showing zero signs of slipping right now...none...if Jimmy G was in the second year of his deal than this is all a moot point...you keep him...but the fact remains that he has a year left on his deal and there is no way they are keeping both him and Brady in 2018 if they are both making real money...that is not going to happen and that has zero to do with not having faith in him...i think Brady has at least three good years left in him and there is no reason to push him out the door until he shows that he is slipping...that is foolish...Jimmy G looks like he has a chance to be legit but right now the Pats window could not be more wide open with Brady at QB...no reason at all to be worrying about five or six years down the road...you have plenty of time to figure that out...Jimmy G is an intriguing prospect at the most important position in the NFL...he is a second round pick who has shown some flashes and right now is making nothing...in a year where the incoming rookies don't look to be anything special there will be a market for him...while I do believe a 1 and a 4 is wishful thinking I do think you can get something like a second and possibly another decent pick...for a team like Cleveland that is flush with picks a deal like that would allow you to use both your ones on non-Qbs while giving you a year to see if Jimmy G is worth a big contract...
Lol. No signs of slipping? Go look at Favre's and Peyton's 2nd to last years. They both showed 0 signs of slipping and had great years. Their last years? Big slip.Boston said:
Go ahead and think that Brady is going to blow past both of them and have good seasons at 40-42 and maybe play till 45 like he says. History is not on his side and if he does last till 45 then at least you know the Pats were able to cheat again.
Boston
Footballguy
Not sure what is LOL...he is showing absolutely zero signs of slipping (actually he is moving better now than he was ten years ago) and unlike Manning he doesn't have a major neck injury and I don't think it's hard to imagine that he has taken better care of himself than Favre...that being said I fully understand he is at an age where things happen fast...that is very obvious...the point is that until he shows signs of slipping you keep riding him and try to win titles...no need to push him aside until he does slip...and when he does I'm not worried that BB won't be able to figure something out...
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I agree with Brady's father. When the end comes, it will not be pretty and it will be painful. A major injury is what will force Brady out.
That's one of the main differences between Peyton and Brady. How many neck surgeries did Manning have and ended up with limited sensation in his throwing hand (allegedly)? Brady has been predominantly healthy while Manning was having medical issues. One big hit at some point between 39 and 42 will be the end of TB12.
That's one of the main differences between Peyton and Brady. How many neck surgeries did Manning have and ended up with limited sensation in his throwing hand (allegedly)? Brady has been predominantly healthy while Manning was having medical issues. One big hit at some point between 39 and 42 will be the end of TB12.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Not worth it TBH... I won't change your opinion no matter what I reference. You think he sucks, that's fine, it's your opinion to hold. I think he's a promising HCBronco Billy said:
grateful zed
Footballguy
myabe they are high on brisket?
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Garoppolo is going to be a star (Romo level). If he ends up on a team that has its #### together maybe a superstar (Brees level).
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Yep, I think it's a red flag and lots of QBs look good in 1 or 2 starts. One guy is coaching the Cowboys now. I also just don't think Brady will last that long at a high level. He'll be 40 next year. Thinking he will play at a high level till 43-45 is really a stretch. If he does then there is no doubt he's been doing PEDs for bit.
shadrap
Footballguy
Anarchy99
Footballguy
There really are two issues here. First, NE has Jimmy G and TB12 under contract through next season. After that, there is little chance they can afford to pay both of them. Garoppolo is not going to stick around for back up money, so NE can franchise him. But they're not going to shell out close to $40M in a year just on the QB position.
Second, Jimmy G's trade value won't get higher than it is now, so the Pats should entertain trade offers for him.
If Brady has 3 more years in him, Garoppolo is not going to just stick around for what would have been six years as a back up.
Thunderlips
Footballguy
The Red Flag on the situation is Brady's age. If this were 5+ years ago.....one could understand the Pats moving a potentially starting QB in the NFL. As it stands, makes no sense to to move the guy unless they're certain is isnt' their future.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Gary Cuozzo Syndrome is old.
Dont do it.
Dont do it.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Brady is in the MVP discussion. sure he's old for the nfl but there's no sign he can't do it anymore
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I don't know what JG is worth, but how are we forgetting that Bradford was just traded for the same picks.
Or they think Jimmy will be a solid qb, maybe even great BUT also feel Brady is far from done and know they can't keep both going forward. If I were a GM I'd give up a first in a heartbeat for an experienced qb with the upside of JG as opposed to drafting one. You have as good a chance getting a stud qb late as you do taking one in the first round, ask Dallas. First round picks, especially qb picks are total crapshoots.
Run It Up
Footballguy
I dont think Brady needs to play at this level to be successful. That being said, i think he has a few more years AT this level.
Also i dont see how a team not being able to retain two QBs for an extended period is a red flag. The Pats literally cant afford to keep both, trust me i want them to keep both and ive done mental hypothetical gymnastics in the past devising scenarios where they could retain both, its just not happening even if they got it done now and the cap goes up ~10mil next year and the year after.
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Thunderlips
Footballguy
Is there anyone here arguing that JG is worth a 1+ that ISN'T a Pats fan?
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
Couldn't disagree more.Bronco Billy said:
NE doesn't know if Jimmah is a franchise QB (neither does anyone else), but everyone knows Brady is.
Jimmah might be a franchise QB (fqb) in the same way numerous teams felt Bradford, Goff, Bortles etc might be franchise qbs, the patriots and everyone else dont know so it makes little sense for us to "hypothesize" as if they do.
I agree that NE does know Jimmah better than anyone else but I don't see how one then makes the leap to they wouldn't trade him if they thought theres a chance he might really be good (in essence what u r claiming). If they (or any1 else) knew for certain he was a franchise qb (which is of course impossible at this point) he would be worth multiple 1st rd picks but they have no way of knowing that. There is lots of room between bust qb and fqb and many teams would be happy just to have a solid if unspectacular starter.
What NE does know is in brady they already have a franchise QB who will likely play at a high level for the next 2-4 years and they cannot afford to pay a backup, starter money. NE will do what they almost always do (whats best for the team) and in this case that will likely mean trading Jimmah away while his value is high.
To pretend the patriots won't get significant picks for Jimmah (at least at this juncture) and that the "story" has no validity seems rather silly.
Will the patriots get a first (likely late) for Jimmah? At this juncture I would say they almost certainly will. Is that because I feel he is a fqb? Nope, its because there is a dearth of starting caliber QBs in the league and it makes too much sense for some other team not to take a chance on him.
I don't understand how everyone seems to be focused only on the draft picks when the time and money investment are as (if not) more important. If you use a high draft pick on a qb u lose the pick AND you lose time and money hoping he will develop. Imho much of that risk is mitigated with trading for Jimmah; you don't have to wait 2-3 years for him to develop (meanwhile losing time, money & opportunity to find the right guy) you only lose the pick(s). If he flames out year one you move on, but if you draft a potential fqb who flops you lose multiple years and much money.
FTR, I thought Mallett stunk and never thought they would get much for him and I didn't think much of Jimmah coming in but I have to admit he has shown promise. The qb market (like most) is driven by supply and demand and for that reason alone I would be surprised if Jimmah doesn't command at least a 1st or damn near close to it.
Peace
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